Could this happen?

[NHFarrier]

I'll try to make this short and sweet. I am a farrier, and as a side job, I work on a farm that sells horses. We had a nine year old QH gelding, he was sound and never had any lameness problems. He was shod on all four feet - came to our farm shod. We sold him to a woman who couldn't pick him up for a week. She wanted his shoes pulled, which I did on Tuesday of the week - she was getting him on Saturday. His feet were on the flat side and he had very deep commissures and a small contacted frog. I couldn't really take any length off because his sole was flat, even with the wall and all live. Regardless of this, he was sound and frisky and had no problems while he was at the farm. Several days after they got him home she contacted us and said she'd tried to ride him and he was sore. Furthermore, even knowing his feet were flat and he was sore, she didn't have him shod for over a month. After shoeing he was still sore. Now, three months later, she contacts me and says he has navicular, and the vet can't pinpoint in to a specific time. Could the horse have gotten navicular from having his shoes pulled and being sore - and then having her try to ride him? Could he have had navicular and been sound with the shoes and when I pulled them off it cause the navicular to increase the damage? Not sure what to do, the horse was sound before he left and had never exhibited any lameness even when ridden hard.

[Phil Armitage]

Doesnt sound like this woman had the horse Vet checked before purchaseing the horse. Probably would have been a good idea. It also sounds like she needs to access a horse in the future before requesting that the shoes be pulled or asked what the best thing is to do first. Hard to say what the cause of lameness is without seeing it. What does the Vet recommend? It is her horse now and her problem, don't take it personal and make it your problem, be carefull there are many people out there that would love to blame someone. You did not cause anything, horse owners need to realise that there is a lot of knowledge and experience required to owne and care for a horse and part of it is starting off with a Pre purchase Vet check.

[NHFarrier]

Wow...reading that definitely made me feel a little better. We do not discourage vet checks and always give people plenty of time to have one done with the vet of their choice. She brought a "horse-knowledgeable" friend with her when she came to look at him. On the horse's behalf, he was very sound and she rode him hard for about 45 minutes and he never took a bad step. He was always that way while on the farm. I was told to pull the shoes because she was hoping he could go barefoot for the winter and if he became sore, she would have him shod. I would never expect and horse owner to allow a sore horse to go unattended for over a month hoping it would go away.

[Ronald Aalders]

Like Phil says, hard to tell what could be the cause of lameness here.

It could also be that the horse, (being flat footed if I understand correctly) is just a little tender? Develloping navicular in a few weeks is not too likely, on the other hand although the horse was sound at your barn, does not mean the horse was not suffering from something that could prompt a vet to diagnose the horse with "navicular" once lameness was noticed.



Ronald Aalders

[caballus]

Navicular is pain in the caudal area of the hoof -- heel area. It is a symptom; not a disease. Sounds like this woman wanted the horse to be barefoot but does not have the facts about going barefoot in a manner that is correct. Rarely can one simply pull shoes and trim up a bit and have the horse sound with a "pasture trim". I would imagine that the toe is long, the bars are probably overgrown as well as the heels most likely are too long and, perhaps, underslung. I usually find that the walls are left too long, as well. For a horse that has always been shod, they *are* going to be tender on hard, bumpy or rocky ground after removing the shoes not only because of the frog and heels being contracted but also because, generally, most farriers pare down the sole prior to shodding leaving little support and protection for the foot. Compare it to you wearing shoes for years and years and never going outdoors barefoot. Then, one day, you decide to go truckin' down your gravel driveway or across hard, winter ground barefooted. Think you'd be a bit sore, too. Generally, when I take a horse's shoes off I will do a very minimal trim. I'll shape up the hooves and balance them as best as I can without touching the sole. I'll get the walls down to sole callous level, I'll bring the heels back and down a tad, touch up the bars so they are not weight bearing and I'll rocker the toes slightly to help the horse begin to walk heel-first. I also remove flares from the get go as much as possible. I've found that most of the times, with a horse that is long-shod for years or, a horse with laminitis issues that it takes aup to bout 3 full months for the horse to go 100% sound on hard, uneven ground with no ouchiness. Even the "navicular" horses will sometimes take that long. Think of it this way - the sole is naturally about 3/8" to 1/2" thick and grows approx. 1/8" inch a month. So for 3 months that sole needs to keep thickening up from being pared down for shoes. Then the horse will feel better and will generally begin to go 100% sound BUT ... this is assuming that the trim is correct and there have been no other physical issues. If not, then issues continue to crop up and even multiply. Another MAJOR factor is getting the horse out moving and not stalling the horse for extended periods of time. Horses need to move, they're designed to move constantly. Movement gets the blood circulating and keeps the tissues and bones healthy. Even stalling a newly de-shod horse overnight can render retarded rehabilitation. Another additive to the whole process is making sure the diet is correct for the particular horse based on free choice low to medium quality grass hay and a low-carb, low-sugar and high fat grain ONLY if needed for the work. Otherwise, just hay and a good vitamin supplement with a freechoice mineral and white salt blocks. Of course, fresh water available at all times, as well. These are all part of the "ingredients" that make up a successful transition from long-shod to barefoot horses. I equate barefoot horses to a "lifestyle" rather than something we *do* to the horse.

Hope some of this is helpful and that it makes sense to you?

--caballus

[NHFarrier]

Thanks for the responses. They are very helpful. I tried to explain the same thing about the horse not being used to being barefoot and I was shot down. They didn't seem to understand that it would take time for a flat-footed horse to be fine barefoot. This is a horse that most likely has been shod all his life. (He was born and raised on the Weiscamp Ranch in Texas and was used for ranch and performance work.) It has been three months since I pulled the shoes off and they took him home. Like I said before, they didn't have the farrier come out for a month and they didn't have a vet come out until last week. From the email she sent this morning it seems like the vet told her it was a newer case of navicular, but "he's not sure", as she put it.

So the horse could have had navicular before and been visually sound, but the "trauma" of going barefoot could have cause it to become more pronounced? From what I've read many vets use the "navicular card" if they can't pinpoint the lameness on anything else.

[Bill Adams]

Hello NH,
Welcome to the "vet says is has nivicular" club. They say this to cover themselves. As Gweneth said, it just means the horse is sore in the heels and could be many things or a combnation thereof.
It sounds like you have a horse owner who tried to go the cheap route and now wants to blame someone else.

Hey Gweneth, I find it rare for a horse to go lame when the shoes are pulled and they are trimed for pasture. I encourage my clients to have the horse barefoot as much as posible, as it's good for the horse and I make more money. The horses I trim are in my care for years and I know how they go, and that helps them stay sound. From what you've writen and your site, I see you get to help a lot of horses that have been fouled up from incompident shoers (not Farriers), and you are to be comended for helping in that market. That being said, I still want to see you shoe a dosen befor lunch someday (grin)!
My $0.02,
Bill

P.S. So NH, what is your real name? What dose NH stand for New Horseshoer or Narley Hoof or what? After this experance it could be Nivicular Healer. (I asume it has something to do with the northeast coast of New England.)

[caballus]

Hey Bill ...

:p


--cab

[NHFarrier]

Hey Bill, NH stands for New Hampshire. Didn't realize the board preferred real names instead of handle when I signed up. Most people call me Amy!

I've had a couple horses come off shoes and be slightly tender for a couple weeks when they step on something hard, like a rock. But most horses seem fine fairly quickly. This was just a double whammy because we sold her the horse, and I trimmed him before he left.

Amy

[Dave Whitaker]

caballus, please be carefull with blanket statements , especially when responding to newer or less experianced hoof care practitioners. There certainly is such a thing as Navicular Disease. I've seen it, dealt with it etc. It involves chronic changes in the Navicular bone that are clearly visable through radiographs, disection, etc. Now, that being said, I truley think that the majority of "navicular" that is being diagnosed by most vets is truley nothing more than a caudal heel pain that they can't put their finger on, (equine MRI is going to change all that). They throw these diagnosis' under "navicular syndrome", another name that means nothing of value.

In this case, NH, as you described, I would bet my rig that this has very little if nothing to do with the navicular bone itself, and is probably a newly barefooted horse that has probably been misused and ridden like a dirt bike for the last month. I certainly wouldn't beat yourself up over it...I doubt that you were a contributing factor at all. As Caballus alluded to, transitioning to barefoot is more involved than simply pulling shoes. It takes a dedicated owner and a knowledgeable farrier working together to allow a horse to be put to work barefoot over a variety of terrain.

[jamesrooney]

May I please beg you all to read about navicular disease on my web site here on horseshoes? My veterinary colleagues seem unable to get it or want to get it, but you guys/gals surely can and should.

[caballus]

Oops ... well, I suppose I might as well open the hornet's nest, then.

You stated in your article--

Vibration as a basic cause of navicular disease is certainly supported by the type of animal (large body/small foot) and type of work (jumping, work on hard roads).

To me - this makes PERFECT sense as I was taught that the frequency of a horse WALKING in shoes is around 800 hZ which is equal to a barefoot horse galloping on a hard, tarred surface. The normal frequency of a non-shod horse walking on a tarred surface is only around, and correct me if I'm wrong, please ... around 80 - maybe 120 hZ. That's a HUGE difference and when the shod hoof is combined with a toe-first landing vs. a heel-first landing, that mega hZ of the shod foot is shooting irrepairable frequency right up the front of the bones in the leg. The initial concussive forces of the toe-first landing bypasses the digital cushion and the frog both of which are designed to dissipate the energies/frequencies of those forces. 800 hZ is a frequency at which live tissue cannot thrive - in fact, the cells are killed at frequencies at this level.

I would be interested to know what the frequency levels would be in NB shoes where the breakover and rockered toes allow for a heel-first landing? This compared with the frequencies of a heel-first barefoot landing? Even in the heel-first landing there'd be more hZ going through the limbs from a shod hoof vs. the barefoot horse BUT ... the DC and the Frog (assuming the frog is allowed active ground contact) can now do their jobs properly in dissipating those horrific energies when the hoof is allowed to land heel-first.

This is making sense to me in my own head ... does it make sense to anyone else?

--caballus

[Mike Ferrara]

Oops ... well, I suppose I might as well open the hornet's nest, then.

You stated in your article--



To me - this makes PERFECT sense as I was taught that the frequency of a horse WALKING in shoes is around 800 hZ which is equal to a barefoot horse galloping on a hard, tarred surface. The normal frequency of a non-shod horse walking on a tarred surface is only around, and correct me if I'm wrong, please ... around 80 - maybe 120 hZ. That's a HUGE difference and when the shod hoof is combined with a toe-first landing vs. a heel-first landing, that mega hZ of the shod foot is shooting irrepairable frequency right up the front of the bones in the leg. The initial concussive forces of the toe-first landing bypasses the digital cushion and the frog both of which are designed to dissipate the energies/frequencies of those forces. 800 hZ is a frequency at which live tissue cannot thrive - in fact, the cells are killed at frequencies at this level.

I would be interested to know what the frequency levels would be in NB shoes where the breakover and rockered toes allow for a heel-first landing? This compared with the frequencies of a heel-first barefoot landing? Even in the heel-first landing there'd be more hZ going through the limbs from a shod hoof vs. the barefoot horse BUT ... the DC and the Frog (assuming the frog is allowed active ground contact) can now do their jobs properly in dissipating those horrific energies when the hoof is allowed to land heel-first.

This is making sense to me in my own head ... does it make sense to anyone else?

--caballus

Whenever energy is looked at in the frequency domain, frequency alone doesn't tell us much. We need to look at the energy content in the whole spectrum because only a perfect sin wave will apear as a single frequency at a given magnitude. A perfect pule, on the other hand will appear as equal energy (horizontal line on a graph) with equal energy at all frequancies. A perfect pulse, however, doesn't exist because it must have a time duration of zero. Both cases are useful for analysis purposes though.

Whenever we hit something, it will vibrate at it's resonant frequency at the center of the spectrum (highest magnitude) but will decay to lesser magnitudes at surrounding frequencies. That curve is described as bandwidth. A mechanical structure may indeed have different resonant frequencies in different planes of vibration (multimodal). While I would expect a horse shoe to have a higher resonant frequency than hoof material we don't yet have a perpetual motion or energy generation machine. That means that the excitation pulse or concusion must cantain energy at that frequency in order to excite the structure at that frequency.

To illustrate, hit a tuning fork with a hard object and you'll hear a tone. That tap with the hard object on the hard tuning fork surface contains enough energy in a high enough frequency range to get something out of the tunning fork. Now, have a strong man apply pressure to the tunning fork and then let go. You don't hear much. You applied a very low frequency pulse which contained nearly zero energy in the resonant range of the tunning fork so it remains silent (or nearly so) even though much energy was applied.

A shoe on a foot will act as a filter. The concussion of the shoe on the ground yields some spectrum. The shoe will vibrate and so will the foot. However, since the shoe can't create energy it must use some with energy at some frequencies passing while energy at others are used up in vibrating the shoe. This is described by the transfer function of the shoe (system formed by the ground, shoe, foot and their junctions)...which is the input spectrum (concussion of the shoe on the ground) devided by the output spectrum (the vibration of the hoof, in the frequency domain.

The question is, what is the energy content in what frequencies and is it enough to do any damage and over what period of time.

[Phil Armitage]

Cab does it make sense that some horses are bred with bad conformation and bad feet and if they are Barefoot they can experience paine in the caudle aspect of there hoof. This pain also causes the horse to compensate and land toe first and if left this way for a long time can subluxate the coffin joint causeing navicular syndrome. Doesnt it make sense to shoe these horse with protection and support so that the pain goes away, which helps the horse land properly and relieves the stress in the joints. It does to me, does it make sense to anyone else?

[Rick Burten]

Mike

Thanks for the lesson in Physics :D . Do we not also have to consider the various concussion dampining components of the limb and hoof, and how each interacts with the other, as well as at what level those tolerances are exceeded and damage results?

Now, Gwen is asking about a toe first landing, which whether barefoot or shod is demonstrably a bad thing, and in her scenario, concussive force vectors are not being correctly distributed to the rear of the hoof . I think it becomes, at that point, somewhat of a moot question as to the effects of concussion because we are already dealing with pathology that must first be remediated and pain that must be palliated.

I'm off to read Dr. Rooney's article yet again.

Rick

[Bill Adams]

It must be the lingering effects of concussive tramua that will not let me remember where I read an article about the increadable shock dispursing qualites of the hoof hall.

Gwen,
How are the frequencys measured? Are they done with sensors in the bone or is it measuring the vibrations of a horse walking by the sensor, external to his feet?
Kick the ol' hornet's nest any time, I get the brain going that way.
Thanks,
Bill

[caballus]

Phil ... I'm not going to argue with you about shoes vs. barefoot. I know and everyone else knows that we don't agree so let's just leave it at that. As for sublaxation ... that happens to ANY hoof that is landing toe first whether shod, unshod, conformationally incorrect or conformationally acceptable. My contention was that a higher rate of frequency traveling through the bones of the limb is expected with shoes. In fact, a much higher frequency that is actually quite detrimental to living cells. Mike substantiated that, if I'm correct, with his statement, To illustrate, hit a tuning fork with a hard object and you'll hear a tone. That tap with the hard object on the hard tuning fork surface contains enough energy in a high enough frequency range to get something out of the tunning fork. Now, have a strong man apply pressure to the tunning fork and then let go. You don't hear much. You applied a very low frequency pulse which contained nearly zero energy in the resonant range of the tunning fork so it remains silent (or nearly so) even though much energy was applied.

The "tap" of a horse's shod hoof on hard ground is going to definitely "get something out of the tuning fork." This vs. a bare hoof that is pliable and giving and comparable to the strong man applying pressure to the tuning fork and letting go.

Mike, you also stated, A shoe on a foot will act as a filter. The concussion of the shoe on the ground yields some spectrum. The shoe will vibrate and so will the foot. Absolutely and that vibration travels through the bones of the leg. However, how much filtering can a shoe provide? There is very little to absorb energy if anything at all in a shoe. The foot will absorb the energy but that energy is far greater with shoes than without. The hoof, alone, is designed to filter and dissipate shock. But, again, how many hooves are there with shoes on that allow the full functioning of the frog on the ground and the proper absorption and dissipation by the digital cushion? I don't think I've ever seen shoes that allow the frog to have full ground contact. Coupled with that is the fact that the solid ground acts as a stop for the downward motion of the internal foot and the lateral cartilages. With an added 1/4 - 1" of shoe, more stress is added onto those cartilages and the surrounding tissues supporting the Navicular. What happens, now, to those tissues and bone? Particularly, the Navicular? But, this is off the subject of frequency so I'll say no more on this.

And yes, thanks for the lesson on physics - knowledge of which I am lacking so it helps to learn more about it as it is applied to equine hooves!

*S* -- Gwen (OK, OK -- I'll give up the "handle" for this forum.)

[Bill Adams]

Gwen,
I think we are starting to mix metafores and compare apples to oranges.
That's not what Mike meant by the tuning fork story. I think.

Look at it like this. Hang a new horse shoe by a string, wind chime style. Strike it smartly with a Farriers driving hammer, and hear the ring. Strike it again and slowly grasp the heel of the shoe between your finger and thumb. Feel the vibration?
Hold the string and and let the shoe drop on the pavement, and hear how it sounds.
Now untie the shoe and hold it tightly in your hand and strike it with the hammer, with the same force, on a part of the shoe that is against your hand. Feel the difference in the way the energy is spent? Holding the shoe in your hand tightly, hit the pavement, you will use more energy, but have less vibration.
The real test that I've conducted countless times, is bringing a foot sore horse to shoe, pounding the nails into his hoof wall, pounding them between the shoe and clinch block, then hammer clinching as I do every shod foot. Ninty percent or more of the time they shoe no discomfort from the hamer. The pay off is when the horse that limped up to me runs off bucking an hour later after being burned and pounded on. Sometimes in a macho fasion even.
I know there are ways to help the horse recover and go well with out shoes, and I've helped them do it over time, but I can help the horse that has to go to work this afternoon too.
My $0.02,
Bill
Let me know how the studies you cite were conducted. Thanks.

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike

Do we not also have to consider the various concussion dampining components of the limb and hoof, and how each interacts with the other, as well as at what level those tolerances are exceeded and damage results?


Rick

Absolutely.


Absolutely and that vibration travels through the bones of the leg. However, how much filtering can a shoe provide? There is very little to absorb energy if anything at all in a shoe. The foot will absorb the energy but that energy is far greater with shoes than without.

The energy comes from the horse in motion. The shoe can't add energy except for the fact that a horse is a little heavier with shoes than without.

Bills example is a gooe one. If we could place an accelerometer (sp?) on or in a horses hoof or leg and have it connected to a spectrum analyzer while the horse moves, I wouldn't expect the results to be much different with or without a shoe though I haven't tried it.

As for the rest, there isn't any doubt that a shoe changes things mechanically. In the case of a healthy barefoot horse who has no need of a shoe it would be silly to change anything which is why my horses aren't wearing shoes right now.

[caballus]

Mornin' Bill ... yes, we are, probably, beginning to mix metaphors. I understand what is being said and agree that the vibrational frequencies will be less in a hoof that is striking the ground than simply holding up a shoe, windchime style. But I would still maintain that the high levels of frequencies from striking the shod hoof on the ground is damaging to live tissue and more of a contributor to navicular. I'm very curious, to read what Dr. Rooney can add to this conversation about shoes and frequencies and the effects upon the navicular.

I don't have any way of knowing how the studies were conducted, Bill. I am going to research it a bit more and maybe somewhere along the line I'll find out. I've read numerous places, however, that a doctoral study was done by Luca Bein at Zurich University that "found that metal horseshoes vibrate at about 800 Hz, a frequency damaging to living tissue. This type of circulation and neural conditions in humans is called Raynaud’s Syndrome." And that the horse "is additionally subjected to the interactin of the consecutive vibrations (resonance/interference) which is even more destructive." Another statement reads, "
Mike ... it stands to reason that a shoe is not going to add anything but weight in a horse that stands still. But its kind of hard to ride a horse that doesn't move, eh? *VBG*

[caballus]

oops ... sorry ... clicked on the wrong keyboard button. I hadn't finished.

Another statements reads, " Shoes decrease the hoof’s ability to absorb shock by 70-80% by not allowing the hoof to expand properly upon weight bearing. In 1983, a study at the University of Zurich found “a shod horse walking on pavement receives three times the impact force as an unshod horse trotting on that surface.” The excess force must then be taken up by the legs damaging joints, tendons, and even the lungs which were not designed to deal with this force."

Now, let me quote the definition of "Reynaud's" --

"Raynaud's syndrome, first described in 1862 by the French physician Maurice Raynaud, has no known cause or cure. The syndrome is a condition in which small arteries, most commonly in the fingers and toes, spasm and cause the skin to turn pale or a patchy red to blue."

and Occupational Reynauds: "Raynaud's symptoms may also be caused by repetitive activities or from using vibrating tools."

So now my contention is that not only do shoes increase the vibrational frequencies that the hoof and leg receive that are a strong predisposing factor to Navicular, but also contributes greatly to severe arthritic damages as a result of decreased blood flow in the foot due to the atrophy of the major blood capillaries and arteries in the lower distal limb. Plus, a whole bunch more.

*S* --Gwen

[Bill Adams]

Mixing metaphores again (spelld rite tis tine). The shoe is not vibrateing on the hoof. Gota go, more later.
Bill

[jamesrooney]

Caballaus, I should be interested to know where those frequency numbers come from. I have not seen them before and certainly question such frequencies in the walking horse. A citation, reference would be much appreciated.

[jamesrooney]

Sorry I missed the story about the source of the numbers. If you do come up with a reference, I should appreciate it. Thanks.

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike ... it stands to reason that a shoe is not going to add anything but weight in a horse that stands still. But its kind of hard to ride a horse that doesn't move, eh? *VBG*

The shoe can't add energy under any cir***stances. More energy is required to move a heavy horse as apposed to a light one and the heavier one will hit the ground with more force. A horse with shoes is a couple of pounds heavier than one without. The amount of energy is determined by mass and velocity and not the material the object is made out of.


Another statements reads, " Shoes decrease the hoof’s ability to absorb shock by 70-80% by not allowing the hoof to expand properly upon weight bearing. In 1983, a study at the University of Zurich found “a shod horse walking on pavement receives three times the impact force as an unshod horse trotting on that surface.” The excess force must then be taken up by the legs damaging joints, tendons, and even the lungs which were not designed to deal with this force."

I would love to see numbers and methods from this study because it seems to blatantly fly in the face of common sense. The difference in impact force between a walking horse vs a trotting horse is HUGE...remember the mv^2/2 thing.


So now my contention is that not only do shoes increase the vibrational frequencies that the hoof and leg receive that are a strong predisposing factor to Navicular, but also contributes greatly to severe arthritic damages as a result of decreased blood flow in the foot due to the atrophy of the major blood capillaries and arteries in the lower distal limb. Plus, a whole bunch more.


All a shoe or any other structure not moving under it's own power can do is absorb energy or move it from one frequency to another. The total energy measured after such a filter must be LESS than the total energy applied...otherwise we have the creation of energy and if we can prove it we will all be very wealthy. Thus far only God has managed such a thing.

If there were any truth to what you say here at all it would be easily demostratable. Shod horses would have a clearly higher rate of navicular. If you can show a correlation here with numbers lets talk.

Can we correlate navicular to anything? Things like jumping and other high impact activities? I don't have numbers but I'll bet we could. would there be a statistically significant difference in the number of navicular cases between the shod and the unshod jumpers? I wonder...but I haven't seen any proof either way.

Can you demonstrate that there is decreased blood flow in a shod hoof?

This is like reading science fiction. I remember an old movie where James Arness played some kind of carrot monster. The army was planning to use electricity to kill the monster but just then a soldier yelled..."Captain we're all out of volts!" LOL The sad part is that it could sound reasonable to some who don't know any better.

I think horse shoeing on the internet...especially without shoes, is all out of volts.

[caballus]

OK, some references. (Love this discussion everyone! Thanks!) ---

Scientific Publications:

That hooves are as hard and resistant to wear as the ground to which they become accustomed is ancient knowledge already put into writing 2400 years ago by Xenophon, military leader of the Greek cavalry. The argument that "our trails are so rocky, the hooves wear down too much" is thus made invalid, since it is not the hoof, but the living conditions of the horse that cause the problem. Xenophon's observations have been proved many thousands of times over; in more recent times (1986), Alexander and Colles once again reminded the riding and veterinary community of this truth with their article "Shoeing--an unnecessary evil" in the American Equine Veterinary Journal.

Bracy Clark, scientist at the London Veterinary College around 1800, found out that every shoe, no matter how correctly applied, inevitably forces the hoof to contract from year to year. He moreover lamented the fact that the books on equine anatomy portrayed these deformed, contracted hooves as sound hooves, since his veterinary colleagues obviously studied only the (sick) hooves of their patients not sound hooves. This problem, unfortunately, is still largely present today: there is rarely a hoof shown in veterinary or farrier textbooks which is not a contracted hoof, yet described as a normal, sound foot.

DVM Zierold, under Professor Lungwitz in 1910, examined and compared the corium of shod and never shod horses, and found significant differences in structure, in that the corium of a shod horse is of a quality which makes the connection to the hoof capsule less stable (a factor in laminitis, for example).

Luca Bein, in his 1983 dissertation in Zurich, measured the shock absorption of barefoot, shod, and alternately shod horses. He concluded that a conventionally shod horse shows an absence of 60-80% of the hoof's natural shock absorption. He demonstrated that "a shod foot on asphalt at a walk receives THREE TIMES the impact force as an unshod horse on asphalt at the trot." Bein also found that a shoe vibrates at about 800 Hz, damaging living tissue.

Dr. C.C. Pollit, at the University of Queensland, Australia, showed in his 1993 study of circulation in the hoof that a shod hoof is not supplied with blood in the normal fashion, but through an alternate route.




--Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

OK, some references. (Love this discussion everyone! Thanks!) ---

Scientific Publications:



Luca Bein, in his 1983 dissertation in Zurich, measured the shock absorption of barefoot, shod, and alternately shod horses. He concluded that a conventionally shod horse shows an absence of 60-80% of the hoof's natural shock absorption. He demonstrated that "a shod foot on asphalt at a walk receives THREE TIMES the impact force as an unshod horse on asphalt at the trot." Bein also found that a shoe vibrates at about 800 Hz, damaging living tissue.

I would really like to see the actual studdy, methods and calculations. It seems reasonable to think that if the shock absorbing ability of the hoof was decreased by 80% that either all shod horses would be crippled or that the shock absorbtion isn't needed. You can't have it both ways. If this was true or important I would expect a correleation so obvious and of such strength that the arguement wouldn't exist.

Dr. C.C. Pollit, at the University of Queensland, Australia, showed in his 1993 study of circulation in the hoof that a shod hoof is not supplied with blood in the normal fashion, but through an alternate route.



What alternative rout?




--Gwen[/QUOTE]

[Mike Ferrara]

OK, some references. (Love this discussion everyone! Thanks!) ---

Scientific Publications:

That hooves are as hard and resistant to wear as the ground to which they become accustomed is ancient knowledge already put into writing 2400 years ago by Xenophon, military leader of the Greek cavalry. The argument that "our trails are so rocky, the hooves wear down too much" is thus made invalid, since it is not the hoof, but the living conditions of the horse that cause the problem. Xenophon's observations have been proved many thousands of times over; in more recent times (1986), Alexander and Colles once again reminded the riding and veterinary community of this truth with their article "Shoeing--an unnecessary evil" in the American Equine Veterinary Journal.





--Gwen

truth? I wonder why we find so many imaginative looking shoes laying around farm fields. I don't know exactly to what extent a hoof and be conditioned for a given environment...like pulling a carriage on the street 6 hours a day, pulling a plow or whatever but if there's a more cost effective way than shoes I think there are plenty of folks who will jump on it.

I don't know what Xenophon knew but maybe he couldn't afford shoes.

A couple weeks ago I had the chance to meet the farrier who does the ambulatory work for Purdue University and do you know they're teaching those young vet students to use shoes and stuff?

[caballus]

Well, I'd LOVE to see the actual dissertations and thesis however, I have no clue of how to access them or even if they're published online. As for Dr. Pollitt's findings - here is his site:

http://www.uq.edu.au/~apcpolli/VE411/lamini/template.htm#Progress%20So%20Far


As far as Xenophon goes -- his wisdom dates back to 400 BC: if you read the quote you would have read that he was the Military Leader of the Greek Calvary long before horseshoes. So can't help you with that one, Mike.

Oh, and as for Purdue teaching about shoes, of course they are! So does Tufts and every other Veterinary school. Just like they primarily teach allopathic medicine and, until just recently, had not embarked upon teaching homeopathic or other complimentary or alternative medicines. Interesting to note, however, just FYI, MOST hospitals in the US were Homeopathic hospitals up until the 1940's when the institution of the American Medical Association then deemed it outdated. Most of Europe still practices Homeopathy as their primary health program and most of their hospitals are Homeopathic. Does this mean that Homeopathy, in US, is not valid? Nooooooooo, it just means that Allopathy has become a more predominant course of study. But that's quickly being turned around now. I would imagine that, with the increased studies and verifications of the "Natural" Equine hoof, that it, too, will become part of the normal studies at vet schools before long.


:) --Gwen

[caballus]

All a shoe or any other structure not moving under it's own power can do is absorb energy or move it from one frequency to another.

Well, excuse me if I'm misinformed about this but I understood metal to be non-permeable and therefore cannot absorb energy but, instead, deflect it to a source that does absorb it. Isn't this the premise of the sin wave? That the energy/frequency will increase accordingly until it hits a "barrier" so to speak? Sort of like the Tsunamis? The energy is created at the ocean floor where it travels through the water building up more and more power/energy until it hits land whereupon it is dissipated and diffused. ???

--Gwen

[caballus]

Can we correlate navicular to anything? Things like jumping and other high impact activities? I don't have numbers but I'll bet we could. would there be a statistically significant difference in the number of navicular cases between the shod and the unshod jumpers? I wonder...but I haven't seen any proof either way.

Ok, one last answer for now cause now I have to leave for work. ...

In Dr. Rooney's "The Lame Horse" , c. 1998, on pages 116-120 discuss the particular horses who do get Navicular: Jumpers, Hunter/Jumpers, and those who "work on hard survace for considerable periods of time".

I, too, would be very interested to know if any studies have been done specifically on comparisons of navicular shod horses vs. barefoot horses.

Dr. Rooney -- do you know of any?

Thanks!

*S* --Gwen

[Mike Ferrara]

Well, excuse me if I'm misinformed about this but I understood metal to be non-permeable and therefore cannot absorb energy but, instead, deflect it to a source that does absorb it. Isn't this the premise of the sin wave? That the energy/frequency will increase accordingly until it hits a "barrier" so to speak? Sort of like the Tsunamis? The energy is created at the ocean floor where it travels through the water building up more and more power/energy until it hits land whereupon it is dissipated and diffused. ???

--Gwen

Permeability doesn't have anything to do with the absorbtion of energy. If I point a torch at a shoe or put it in a forge it will get hot correct? If all the heat was reflected the shoe would remain cold. If I hit the shoe with a hammer it will vibrate, bend and become heated. All those things are the effects of expended energy that won't be used anywhere else.

If a shoe did vibrate at 800 Hz after hitting the ground, the energy being used to vibrate the shoe at 800 hz is energy from the impact that otherwise would have been transmitted to the horse as part of that massive impact but is now spent vibrating the shoe.

I'm sure that I could feel the difference if you replaced the rubber soles of my sneakers with steel. The impact of two hard objects will produce a pulse with more of the energy distributed at higher frequencies than a soft object and a hard one or two soft ones. We can even hear the difference. The question would be, what's the difference once we move beyond the shoe and the hoof shoe junction. It would be easy enough to fasten an accelerometer to the bottom of a horses foot and see.

Ok, one last answer for now cause now I have to leave for work. ...

In Dr. Rooney's "The Lame Horse" , c. 1998, on pages 116-120 discuss the particular horses who do get Navicular: Jumpers, Hunter/Jumpers, and those who "work on hard survace for considerable periods of time".

I, too, would be very interested to know if any studies have been done specifically on comparisons of navicular shod horses vs. barefoot horses.

I couldn't prove it but I suspect the problem is high magnitude, low frequency impact like that of a jumping horse hitting the ground rather than low magnitude, high frequency vibration like that of a shoe being rung.

oops I forgot the sin wave. They're the result of things that go in circles like a generator (I can explain if any one cares). Another source is a resonant circuit like a capacitor/inductor combination or even the mechanical equivilant. And yes that does have to do with the storage and discharge of energy but the 180 deg out of phase components are taking turns storing it and passing it back to the other. The significance of the sinisoid is that all signals can be broken down into a sum of sinosoids which is what an fourier (sp?) tranform does for us mathmatically.

[jamesrooney]

Caballus, no, I don't know of any studies on honest-to-god navicular disease in shod and unshod animals. One of the problems is to be sure one is comparing real navicular as opposed to non-navicular disease painful foot. I do know that navicular disease (at least to judge by pointed toe stance and painful walk)
is common in the poor draft beasts of Egypt, North Africa and the Middle East which have never seen a shoe.

It is really not so easy to fasten an accelerometer and get good readings. The method of attachment has to be very secure, indeed, in order to avoid spurious signals. There have been some old and more recent studies in California and Sweden on forces measured at the foot and in the cannon bone showing marked attentuation of force once it has reached the cannon. There has been nothing that I have seen, however, about vibration and frequency. The tools to do such things were not available during my active years. Now, when I should love to do some studies of the sort, I am retired and too d**** old!

[Mike Ferrara]

It is really not so easy to fasten an accelerometer and get good readings. The method of attachment has to be very secure, indeed, in order to avoid spurious signals. There have been some old and more recent studies in California and Sweden on forces measured at the foot and in the cannon bone showing marked attentuation of force once it has reached the cannon. There has been nothing that I have seen, however, about vibration and frequency. The tools to do such things were not available during my active years. Now, when I should love to do some studies of the sort, I am retired and too d**** old!

I wonder of any one has ever considered doing a finite element analysis on a horse. They're done on about everything else.

[Phil Armitage]

Gwen, I think the most contributeing factor to Navicular Desease is stress on the Navicular bone and supportive tissues. I really do not see how consussion would cause damage, however I can see how it could cause pain on an already damaged area. Sometimes the cuase of landing toe first is becuase of the cuncussion to an already damaged area and by shoeing you protect and support that area. Which will help the horse land normal again and reduce more stress that could cause more damage. Does this make sense to you? This is not a debate on shoeing or not, I am trying to share how I see it. I really do not know how a horse with pain in the caudle aspect of the foot can be helped by keeping them barefoot. I am interested in how you would accomplish this barefoot, without references to people who existed B.C. or even as far back as 100 years ago. All I can imagine is long heels in shod horses by horse owners who looked at a horse as a beast of burden and probably could care less if they went lame or not. They probably looked at a lame horse as there next meal and had plenty of horse flesh to do work and battle when they needed them. Today is what I am interested in where people have a significant amount of money, time and bonding invested in there horses and consider them part of the family and are crushed when they are not well.

[Bill Adams]

Gwen,
Because someone wrote something in a theises or was an ancient Greek when they said it dosen't make it true. It must pass the phiscial test too. Old Xenophon must have left out the part where if the conditioned feet went farther than, or on an abrasive surface there would be an efect on the circulation as the blood would flow onto said abrasive surface. I and probably many others here have seen bloody feet on a horse that was lead up limping and troted of fine with new shoes. Of course it's not an istant cure, it can take up to an hour or more. As to a contest of shod and unshod calvary, the War between the states showed how the Farrier was an important weapon.

As to repetive activity injury and vibratting hand tools that Raynaud spoke of, it could be easy be studied. Affix a 3/8 dirive pnumatic rachet to the hind fetloc of a young horse with vet-wrap, running the hose up the leg and taped to the base of the tail. Plug the hose into the compresser to see if it affects the movment of the horse. This is what happens when I read a post in the morning and have the whole day to think about it. There was a WB this morning I'd like to use for the research.

My $0.02,
Bill

[caballus]

Bill -- sometimes I think you might think *too* much.

;) --Gwen

[Bill Adams]

See what happens? I give and give and no one will join my cult. Oh well.

Another thing to consider is the surface a horse is worked on. Very seldom dose anyone use a horse on pavement. the dianamics of a shod hoof on dirt make the "bad vibes" argument moot.

Bill

[caballus]

I don't know, Bill ... the rocks around here on the trails can be pretty hard!

Here's an article that might add to this discussion. Interesting!

http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/footphy.htm

--Gwen

[Greg Thomas]

If my perception is correct -
with all the expanding waves, vibrations and stuff that I really don't understand all I know about since reading this-We should be able to stick a hotdog in the ear of one of the gaited horses we ride on blacktop for 20-30 miles in 4-5 hours and it should be micriowaved and ready to eat in 15-20 seconds. A trotting Amish buggy horse would probably get it down to 10 seconds flat.

Just trying to be funny.

Thanks, Greg

[jamesrooney]

I'm having my troubles keeping up with this thing, both serious and not-so-serious. There was a question awhile back about applying finite element analysis to horses. It has been done by several different groups for the hoof with interesting, but for me, not earth shaking results. To do it on the whole horse would be a mind numbing, not to say impossible, task. Just a brief reading of the procedure would show you what I mean.
I mentioned earlier about navicular disease (true navicular disease) in horses in the third world. The incidence is, I believe, high with the Amish carriage horses. I cannot verify that since the Amish never sent - to my attention anyway -a horse to postmortem when they could go for slaughter.

[TE Couch]

The tools to do such things were not available during my active years. Now, when I should love to do some studies of the sort, I am retired and too d**** old!

Dr Rooney -

With all due respect, I do not know your age, use or loose it, ou are not too damned old! As evidenced by your participation here.
TE

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Am I wrong or was that study about horses feet vibrating at 800 Mhz done nearly a hundred years or before most people had seen the airplane, a telephone or an oscilloscope. I find it really hard to believe that a shoe nailed to a would do this and even if it did would it be detrimental? I feel old until about 10:00 am and I'm good after that.

Kevin

[Mike Ferrara]

I'm having my troubles keeping up with this thing, both serious and not-so-serious. There was a question awhile back about applying finite element analysis to horses. It has been done by several different groups for the hoof with interesting, but for me, not earth shaking results. To do it on the whole horse would be a mind numbing, not to say impossible, task. Just a brief reading of the procedure would show you what I mean.
I mentioned earlier about navicular disease (true navicular disease) in horses in the third world. The incidence is, I believe, high with the Amish carriage horses. I cannot verify that since the Amish never sent - to my attention anyway -a horse to postmortem when they could go for slaughter.

When I mentioned FEA I wasn't really thinking of modeling the whole horse and yes it would be mind numbing.

In my experience in cases where FEA was done first to aid in design and actual measurements were later taken, it wasn't very accurate but it can provide a starting point.

[caballus]

Am I wrong or was that study about horses feet vibrating at 800 Mhz done nearly a hundred years or before most people had seen the airplane, a telephone or an oscilloscope.

Well, shoot -- I wrote it was in 1983 -- if I've missed THAT much time (nearly a hundred years) then I'm in DEEP shat!!!! Both Dr. Rooney and I are a heck of alot older than we thought we were!!!

*LOL* --Gwen

[Bill Adams]

Hi Gwen,
In your travles can you find thost studies that measured the frequency of the shoe compared to plain hoof?
Thanks, Bill

[cowboy_bc]

Bill,

Oop's I was wrong it seemed to me it was 1911 or something. Here is a referance to that study I found.

Luca Bein, in his 1983 dissertation in Zurich, measured the shock absorption of barefoot, shod, and alternately shod horses. He concluded that a conventionally shod horse shows an absence of 60-80% of the hoof's natural shock absorption. He demonstrated that "a shod foot on asphalt at a walk receives THREE TIMES the impact force as an unshod horse on asphalt at the trot." Bein also found that a shoe vibrates at about 800 Hz, damaging living tissue.

Kevin

[Bill Adams]

Thanks Kevin,
I have good excuses, but I don't understand. Can a shoe vibrate while solidly affixed to a hoof?
I'll see if I can find this dissertation.
Thanks
Bill

[Peter Lundin]

Well, I'd LOVE to see the actual dissertations and thesis however, I have no clue of how to access them or even if they're published online. As for Dr. Pollitt's findings - here is his site:

http://www.uq.edu.au/~apcpolli/VE411/lamini/template.htm#Progress%20So%20Far


As far as Xenophon goes -- his wisdom dates back to 400 BC: if you read the quote you would have read that he was the Military Leader of the Greek Calvary long before horseshoes. So can't help you with that one, Mike.

Oh, and as for Purdue teaching about shoes, of course they are! So does Tufts and every other Veterinary school. Just like they primarily teach allopathic medicine and, until just recently, had not embarked upon teaching homeopathic or other complimentary or alternative medicines. Interesting to note, however, just FYI, MOST hospitals in the US were Homeopathic hospitals up until the 1940's when the institution of the American Medical Association then deemed it outdated. Most of Europe still practices Homeopathy as their primary health program and most of their hospitals are Homeopathic. Does this mean that Homeopathy, in US, is not valid? Nooooooooo, it just means that Allopathy has become a more predominant course of study. But that's quickly being turned around now. I would imagine that, with the increased studies and verifications of the "Natural" Equine hoof, that it, too, will become part of the normal studies at vet schools before long.


:) --Gwen
That most of Europe use homeopathy as their primary health program is not true.
PL

[Peter Lundin]

There was a post a while ago where some had spoken to Dr Bein. Someone know where to find it?
PL

[Bill Adams]

Hello Peter,
I spoke to Dr. Bein and his wife back in Feb or March. He is a wine maker in South Africa now afrer retiring from vet practice.
I asked about his study showing that shoes cause damaging vibes, and he said that the barefoot only crowd has taken things out of context, and that he suports proper horseshoeing. If you private message me I can get you contact info.
Welcome aboard,
Bill

[JMPalmer]

For the National Council Against Health Fraud's view on homeopathy and a good synopsis of what homeopathy is:

http://www.ncahf.org/pp/homeop.html

Homeopathy was devised by the German physician Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843) as a reaction to practices based upon the ancient humoral theory which he labeled "allopathy." The term has been misapplied to regular medicine ever since.
===============

Homeopathy has nothing to do with "all natural" or herbal, etc. as many think. Closer to voodoo or should I say quackery? I believe snake oil has been proven more effective :rolleyes:

Jan

[Rick Burten]

I wonder if Strasser studied Hahnemann? After all, if one takes the time to read the abstract and related papers on homeopathy, one finds striking similarities between the two. On a point by point basis, the authors could easily have been writing about F. Strasser. HMMMMMMM......

Regardless, I'm getting a headache and posterioritis, so I think I'll take some Ju-Ju berry pills, and rub some acorn-milkweed-locoweed extract on my psora(ss)

[caballus]

Well, then, this is interesting. I'll have to "communicate" with the horses and dogs and cats that have responded remarkably well to Homeopathics and see just what the voodoo secret is!

;) --Gwen

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

caballus in gray

Well, then, this is interesting. I'll have to "communicate" with the horses and dogs and cats that have responded remarkably well to Homeopathics and see just what the voodoo secret is!

One can only wonder how the flim flam personnel who comprise the homeopathic division of quackery, fakery, and pseudoscience reconcile their belief with the reality of Avogadro's number? Put another way, homeopaths would have folks believe that a single individual's ****ing in the mile wide Mississippi at Memphis can affect the water quality at Baton Rouge.

If your cats and dogs "responded remarkably well" to homeopathic treatment, then homeopathy is wrongfully receiving credit for some other component of the regimen. In reality, never, as in not even once, has the efficacy of any homeopathic nostrum been demonstrated to be beneficial under scientific conditions.

[Bill Adams]

Tom,
We have a friend who's into homeopathy and I'm constantly getting in trouble stating that homeopathic Heroin would be legal as it is untraceable in the little bottles.
My $0.02 (or $0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000002 homeopathicly)
Bill

[Phil Armitage]

Well, then, this is interesting. I'll have to "communicate" with the horses and dogs and cats that have responded remarkably well to Homeopathics and see just what the voodoo secret is!

;) --Gwen


Gwen I cut and pasted the following from "NCAHF Position Paper on Homeopathy" it is in "Red" The whole paper is recommended reading for all.

Homeopathy (derived from the Greek words homoios "similar" and pathos "suffering") is a sectarian healing system devised by Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843), a German physician who rejected the harsh medical practices of his era which included bleeding, purging, vomiting and the administration of highly toxic drugs.

Practices of the era were based on the ancient Greek humoral theory which attributed disease to an imbalance of four humors (blood, phlegm, and black and yellow bile) and four bodily conditions (hot, cold, wet, and dry) that corresponded to four elements (earth, air, fire, and water). Physicians attempted to balance the humors by treating symptoms with "opposites." For instance, fever (hot) was believed to be due to excess blood because patients were flushed; therefore, balance was sought by blood-letting in order to "cool" the patient. Hahnemann dubbed such practices "allopathy" (allos "opposite," pathos "suffering"), and sought to replace it with his "Law of Similia" that treated "like with like."

Although medicine never accepted the label of allopathy, homeopaths continue to misrepresent physicians as allopaths to make their differences appear based upon conflicting ideologies rather than scientific pragmatism. Medical writers often refer to medical doctors as "allopaths" but their use of the term reflects an alternate definition of allopathy as "a system of medical practice making use of all measures proved of value (emphasis ours) in treatment of disease" (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary). This definition is inconsistent with its root words "allos" and "pathos." Its duplicity aids those who wish to misrepresent medicine as ideologically allopathic (i.e., symptom suppression)

I would also like to comment on useing measurements like Frequency when discussing cuncussion on the horses feet barefoot vs. shod and if the measurements you provided means a whole lot. First of all Frequency is a measurement commenly used for the audio spectrum and Radio broadcasting spectrum, light can also be refered to or mearsured in frequency. Frequency is measured in cycles per second. The audio range is audible, or lets say the human ear can detect it. 800 hertz falls in the audio range 80 cycles is below the audibly range. 60 cycles is the frequency of AC Current. Cell phones broadcast in the 800 Megahertz to 900 Megahertz. Radio stations broadcast AM signals in the Kilohertz and FM from 80 MHZ to 100 MHZ. Ham Radios broadcast in the Low frequency LF, High frequency HF and Very High Frequency VHF, also Ultra High Frequencty UHF. Commercial Radio stations, military radio broadcasts commenly transmit signal in the thousands of Watts (Power) We are surrounded by frequencies in a very wide spectrum at mind boggleing power, some are harmfull some are not. The higher the frequency the less likely it resonates with solid matter, the lower the frequency the more likely it will resonate with solid matter I do not recall any studys that have proven if either is harmfull. Resonateing Frequencies are the most harmfull because they can cause solid objects to become stressed which occures at very low frequencies, so suspect very low frequencies to be the most harmfull. With that said, I would think 80 cycles is more harmfull than 800 cycles. I think it would be virtually impossible for anyone to accurately identify what frequency the horses foot resonates at barefoot or shod or if it means anything or not. Hang a piece of metal up by a string and tap it you will hear a high pitch resonateing frequency probably at 800 hertz, shoes might make good wind chimes when they are strung up on your front porch and not on a solid object like a horses foot. :) When I was learning electronics and Radio Repair in the military our instructor would put out a sign that said "Caution 10,000 Ohms" some of the students thought wow this must be dangerous, such a high number. Little did they know Ohms is the measurement of resistors an anolog component nothing there to harm anyone just how resistors are measured.

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I once got kicked in the head by a horse with a shoe and my head rang at about 800 Mhz so I think there is something to that.

Kevin

[joan cameron]

Oh my aching head!! Great stuff all of you...but I hate it when I have to re-read and re-read something in order for my thick brain to absorb it...LOL!!!
Gwen, interesting article from Michigan and Dr. Bowker. They're currently doing more research which will be even more interesting for the bare foot thing. I love all the quick wits on these boards and all the different view points. I'm so glad you all are willing to take the time to delve into stuff...there are lots of us out here who want to learn, learn, learn!!

[marmander]

Found this site that maybe adds a little to the discussion about vibration and shock absorption:
http://www.mascalcia.net/articoli/a2000_27.htm

I for one raised my eyebrows a bit comparing difference between various types of shoes as well as barefoot.