Back pain caused by feet? (how do these hooves look?)

[farreach04]

Ok, I thought I just posted this, but I can't find it anywhere, so I'm thinking I did something wrong.

A friend of mine is leasing a horse at a local hunter barn. I too leased this horse for awhile, so I am very familiar with his particular hoof problems.

She's looking at getting his hocks & stifles injected, which is a start, but I really think its a band-aid for the (much larger) problem of "bad feet"; more specifically, bad trimming?

I'm having some trouble explaining the exact problem to my friend. The trainer(s) at said barn don't see anything wrong with this horse's feet. He's been in bar shoes up front for 4+ years, and nobody can quite get a straight answer to my friend of I as to why (current trainer says they are for a "heel crack" but I think I'm missing the crack...). He's also got persistant thrush (think "stock in thrush buster" sort of bad).

This first picture is of this horse as a 4 year old (10 years ago; different owner/farrier/trainer). His legs look pretty darn straight to me, and at that time, he didn't have any problems with lead changes, heaviness in the bridle, back pain, or stopping at jumps.
4 y/o (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/4yo.jpg)

And here are more recent pictures (in the last year or so). Sorry they aren't great quality/angles, but I'm 400 miles away, so its tough ;) . These pictures are mostly 1-2 weeks post-trim:
front solar view (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/frontsolar.jpg)
front side view (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/footside.jpg)

hind solar (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/hindsolar.jpg)
(I don't have any side hind views)

standing in turnout (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/standhill.jpg)
under saddle standing (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/legs.jpg)

here are some standing pictures- he is VERY close behind just standing, his fetlocks will often touch, and he's chronically stocked up behind.

standing under tack again (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/mugsy.jpg)
under saddle- not a great pic but you can see closeness behind (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/hindlegs.jpg)

Do you all think that the problems he has (bad stifles, bad hocks, severe back pain, stopping at jumps, inability to get clean lead changes most of the time, hesitance to jump from the deep) could be caused by his feet? Or am I just crazy?

Do you think injecting his hocks/stifles would be putting a band-aid over a bullet wound, or could it be a worthwhile endeavor?

[Jeanie Connors]

Poor boy, he does look in pain :( . Injecting his hocks could help, but you're right; it doesn't address whatever has caused the problem in the first place. His conformation looks decent, as well, as far as I can tell, or not terrible so as to predispose him to problems like these.

Have you considered pulling his shoes altogether and trying going barefoot? If no one remembers why he's in egg bars, he probably does not need them, and would be better without. Sometimes trying to shoe or trim "correctively" for too long can cause the exact problems everyone tries to avoid. :) I am happy to share my resources if you feel it might be the right direction to go (barefoot, that is ;) ).

[Phil Armitage]

His feet look great, excellent shoeing job. This horse obviously works hard, excellent condition. If you suspect he is sore anywhere, I would start with a good chiropractor, Equine sport medicine Vet. The only problem I see is the horse is really not built for jumping. He is a strong looking horse, great condition, just doesnt look right for jumping to me from what I see in the pictures. Fine boned, long pasturn, short cannon bones, large shoulders, large neck all this puts a lot of stress on those front legs. From your post I assume he is a jumper, jumping is hard on front feet and legs even on horses with the conformation to handle it better. I think this could limit his jumping carreer. Lot of horse on those front legs. I am assumeing the reason for the bar shoes, is to add support for the long pasturns. The idea for bar shoes is to prevent the feet from sinking into the turf and stressing the Deep Flexor Tendon when jumping. It is difficult to say for sure without seeing this horse in person, I am just throwing things out there for you to consider. I think he is a great looking horse and he is obviously very rideable, but take a look at how small his front legs look compared to the rest of his body. How tall is the horse? What is his weight? What size are his feet?

[farreach04]

I think he is a great looking horse and he is obviously very rideable, but take a look at how small his front legs look compared to the rest of his body. How tall is the horse? What is his weight? What size are his feet?

You are right, he does have a large body and comparatively long (and low) neck (as well as being light on bone up front). However, I've wouldn't say he has long pasterns for his size... small feet maybe...

He's 17 hands, and I have nooo idea how much he weighs (I'd venture 1100 or 1200 or so). He wears a size 2 front shoe, not sure what size back shoe.

conformation (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/farreach04/confo.jpg)
(LOL sorry I keep chopping off his head- he has a REALLY distinctive face marking on one side, and I'm worried his farrier might post here... which could get my friend in trouble)

You don't think his heels look contracted (his frog looks very contracted to me, behind ESPECIALLY)? How do you account for the dramatic change in hind end conformation between age 4 and 13? I am really curious.

While I do understand everything you are saying and am very open to opinions, I am a bit confused on one point. He has *never* been lame up front- the unsoundness is ALWAYS from behind. Even after extensive campaigning (previously up to 3'6" for a stint, now doing what is supposed to be 2'6" but generally is more like 2'3"), his front legs are 100% clean- no splints, chips, arthritis, stocking up, or even scars. Even when he pulls shoes up front he is generally still sound. Any thoughts on this?

[old heller]

this is only an opinion from a beginning farier but he looks quite upright to me you may want to look into natural balance type shoeing and i don't mean barefoot strasser trim as the previous person stated he is a lot of horse for those skinny cannons ,but so goes the thoroughbred. good luck peace

[cynthia-jay]

This horse is unbalanced

He is to far under himself in the rears to a sickle hocked stance

He is also on the forehand

you can see swelling of the joints in the rears at the joints

as stated this horses conformation may be in regaurds to his problems

However he should be able to be rebalanced and worked to relieve the pain

your trainer/farrier and you should be able to work together on this with balancing and suppling exercises to compensate for this and relieve the pressure in the hocks as well as his back

good luck
as always
Jay

[Jaye Perry]

The left hind ankle and RF ankle(fetlocks). Usualyy indicates a bad case of right handed farriers disease.

[Phil Armitage]

I feel like I am in a 4-H Judgeing contest. :) In a nut shell I would consider his body too big for his feet. He has done very well as a jumper and everyone is doing a great job keeping him sound from age 4 to 13. 9 years is nothing to sneeze at, the farrier, owner, trainers and the horse all deserve big patts on the back. As he gets older, he may not be able to do as much competeing and may require longer warm ups and cooling down and just some time off now and then to give his tendons, muscles and bones a break. I would not let all that conditioning disappear that needs to be maintained. Too much time off is not good, as major muscle groups can atrophy rather quickly on horses. I am not going to suggest any changes in shoeing or trimming, I am impressed with what this horse does and for how long he has done it.

[caballus]

Do you think injecting his hocks/stifles would be putting a band-aid over a bullet wound, or could it be a worthwhile endeavor?

Yep, I think it would be "putting the cart before the horse" and, most definitely, a band-aid approach.

If he is sound without shoes, pull them, get them trimmed up properly so the heels can expand and the frogs can grow and the hooves can grow! Grow meaning if he's left barefoot then his feet will probably get 2 sizes larger and wider. Meanwhile, while his hooves are being debriefed from shoes, have a massage therapist and chiro take a look at his back.

I'd say being in bar shoes for years has left this guy with some major ouchies and stressors throughout the body and not only does he have pain from that he's probably got some holding pain at this point in time. Deal with the first things first. Pull the shoes and tend to his hooves first.

--caballus

[Jeanie Connors]

Just to make clear, there are more barefoot trimming methods besides the Strasser trim ;) .

[Jeanette James, CESMT]

Ok.. . .lots of issues here.. some suggestions.....

1. There has been a vet exam and injections suggested. Why? Arthritis? Joint problems? Cartilage? Past injuries? What has been found or is it just a suggestion as everything appears normal? Sometimes vets suggest this as they don't really find anything but injections can help in some cases so they offer to do that to see what will happen. This is the very first issue to be cleared up. In my experience, hock/stifle injections do help when there is a need. Horses tend to be reactive in the hindquarters and back when the hock/stifle has problems. She either needs to go back to this vet and explore further or find a second opinion if the answers don't seem satisfactory.

2. You are working on the feet issues. All acknowledge that soreness and mobility problems in a horse can result when they are not correct. Another suggestion, perhaps, for the bar shoes is you mention thrush. I assume in the front feet or all feet? This needs to be cleared up. That could be making his feet sore and not wanting to land on them correctly. Perhaps I'm out in the north 40 on that one but a suggestion.

3. You mention sore back. How sore? Does he dip down when you palpate? Does he sink down if you push on him? Is he resistant to the saddle? Is he refusing or reluctant to round his back? Is he atrophied across the back and behind the withers or muscled and filled out? Is he girthy or cinchy? Head tossing? What does the vet say about this?

Quoting: Do you all think that the problems he has (bad stifles, bad hocks, severe back pain, stopping at jumps, inability to get clean lead changes most of the time, hesitance to jump from the deep)

Bad saddle fit can cause back pain. Poor rider can cause back pain. Bad hands can cause back pain. Poor dentistry or no dentistry will aid or can cause back pain. Again, suggestions of areas to look into.

Lead changes, involves the pelvis. Also, stands with the left hind forward. Does he always stand with a hind foot forward? Does he always rest one hind over the other? Does he stand square? Is he better going one way over the other? It appears the lumbar region of this horse's back from the conformation photo is high. Again, this area is involved with what you are asking him to do. I'd strongly suggest besides a thorough vet exam, chiropractic and massage sessions. These two modalities tend to work hand in hand and generally are very helpful. Has this horse been seen by a chiropractor?

Saddle... the points of the saddle may be too short and digging in causing pain. The horse gets jabbed in the withers over every jump. Is he girthy? When was the last time the saddle fitting was properly checked by a professional, reflocked, and so forth? Is the underside lumpy? Are the panels uneven? Is the saddle straight or twisted? How wide is the gullet? Is the saddle positioned properly off the shoulder blades? Is it bridging? Too tight in the withers, will make a horse back off a jump. Hurts. Professional saddle fitter may be needed unless this has already been addressed.

The hindquarters... Your power motor. .. Lots of deep muscle, pelvis, strong hind limbs... when they don't feel good there, it affects their perfomance. So.. the best thing I can tell you to do is look into getting or obtaining why the vet wants to do hock injections or get a more thorough exam from him or another veterinary professional. From there, a proficient certified equine massage therapist should be able to help this horse quite a bit also. The addition of an equine chiropractor, either a DVM with animal training or a D.C. with animal training,.. so you have someone who is properly trained in animal chiropractic if this hasn't already been done; find yourself a good saddle fitter and if the equine dentistry is in need of being done, that also. In my neck of the woods I am fortunate that I have several DVM chiropractors to refer to who have helped horses like this quite a bit. One also specializes in lameness. You may have someone like that in your area.

I would, however, definitely suggest she start with more indepth answers from a vet exam. What exactly are they finding? Regardless of how the horse got into this predicament.. now.. you need to find out exactly what damage has been done to stifles,hocks and joints, IF ANY, and then go from there and add your adjunctive therapies to it if you so choose. If she's willing to make the changes, commit to the treatments, It's possible that this horse could around depending on the diagnosis. If the damage to hocks/stifles is such that there's not much one can do, then......

Remember.. it took time for the horse to get in this condition.. it will take time to undo all the compromised tissues. And sometimes, well, age enters in and they may not and eventually won't do what they did before.

And to wind this up.... I am not a vet therefore I do not diagnose any condition nor is this post intended to do that. I am suggesting some avenues for you too look into to get to the root of the problem and address it for hopefully a favorable outcome starting with what sounds like you need a more thorough vet exam?

Jeanette

[Rick Burten]

Meanwhile, while his hooves are being debriefed from shoes,

--caballus

I can see it all now, Agent 22(the horse) is brought into a small dark room and forced to sit down. Suddenly, a bright light is shown into his eyes. A mysterious voice from the dark begins to intone, "so 22, what can you hooves tell us about the events you covertly viewed today? Hoof 22-1 what information can you add to the shoes vs barefoot debate? Hoof 22-3 do you agree? Hoof 22-2 were you able to collect much debris, errrr data.
Hoof22-4, we know of your left lead leadership. Tell us now how you came to prefer the left over the right and we'll consider giving you your evening massage and deep cleaning..........."

Rick

[caballus]

Rick ... LMAO ... you're SUCH a pip! Thank you for the laugh.

--cab

[calshoer]

The poor horse certainly does exibit a lot of glaring upper body issues that even my non-chiropractic trained eye can see. The tight hump in the muscles ahead of the pelvis, the camped under stance, and the swelling in the hocks. Sometimes a poor saddle or something like that can cause all the rest asthe horse compensates, but often these symptoms ARE from something originating in the hind feet.
In this case there is not enough information in the pictures about the hind feet to even begin to evalute the hind feet.
To even try to speculate if the hind feet may be an issue it takes better pictures. A really close up lateral picture of the hind feet on flat dry ground, (camera also at ground level) as well as other close up pictures of the hind feet views (from the front, behind them, as well as the solar view) AND because these feet do no appear bull nosed in the one pic that shows them, Xrays to evaluate hoof balance.
Sadly most farrier and vet texts say that foot lameness rarely occurs in hind feet. When that is simply not true. A LOT of foot lameness occurs in hind feet. But in this example it is hard to say without more detailed info.
Patty

[Moses Shaw]

my two cents is that your hind end problems can be helped with lateral extensions due to his conformation he is broad through his hips and base narrow,but these can only be succesful if the medio-lateral balance is correct this will give him more support higher in the limb. I dont mean trailering his hind shoes just a lateral extension. this will also help him widen out a bit when in work. it also wouldnt hurt to have lateral x-rays of the hinds as well to make sure he doesnt have a negative palmer angle, this is proving to be a unseen cause of back soreness after prolonged periods of time. So it sound like to me youve got your work cut out for you, good luck. Be safe Mo Shaw

[Ronald Aalders]

Thanks Mo, for typing out what I thought!



Ronald Aalders

[cynthia-jay]

I find Rick's diagnosis the best one yet
however I would add 24/7 turn out and lots of r and r :)
as ever
Jay

[old heller]

:confused: wow my head is spinning you people all have such well thought out observations.I AM TRULEY IN AWE!!!! my bad :o there are other methodologies to str***er.i will never pass an oppurtunity to learn.it is so interesting to have so many people look at something and see so many different things.thanks (chief)rick.gotta go contact S.P.E.C.T.R.E. :cool: ;)

[Dave Purves]

I agree, with everyone, almost. First, like Patty said, I don't think you can really tell from the pictures how good the shoeing is, you cannot see the rear part of the hoof were the shoe terminates, in relation to the heel bulbs, and heels. The conformation of the horse is certainly in question, and some serious work should be done by chiro and maybe massage. I think that a horse with this type of conformation, ridden hard for many years, is bound to have issues. Now is the time to try and fix and then maintain the issues. I also agree with Mo, but make sure there is not too much torque in the leg by applying to much caudal, lateral support.
Dave Purves CF :)

[mwmyersdvm]

Despite the difficulties involved in the procedure, I am radiographing more hind hooves. You will be amazed at what you find. My own Saddlebred who appeared to have very good hind hooves had a reverse coffin bone angle. The importance of making sure that the hind feet are correctly balanced cannot be overemphasized. Radiograph them, period.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[J.H. shoeing]

This is a good thread. I think that a lot of horses are sore in the back and a lot of other places because the feet are not balanced.

I see more unbalanced hind feet than fronts. Seems that most of them are high in the medial heel and medial toe. Some are worse than others but the medial toe is where it seems worst.

I worked on a horse the other day That had high medial heel, long medial toe, then had a trailer(industrial strength) on the lateral side. I know it is hard to believe but the horse was sore, someplace, it was hard to get an exact location. I think he was sore every where.They said he was not getting into the ground enough on a cow so they put the trailers on. I am thinking that he was probably doing fine till he got to high in the medial heel and toe. Then to compensate for the lack of balance in the foot they put the trailers on. Then mysteriously he got sore someplace between the bottom of his foot and the middle of his back. He kind of made me sore just looking at his feet, I went back to the basics in balance on him and he is better now.

Jeff

[Phil Armitage]

This winter we had good snow coverage in my area, great for going barefoot and and excellent opportunity to give horses some well deserved time off. I have notice many of the horses that have the hind feet problems like prolapsed frogs, bull noseing have improved dramaticly by going barefoot. I attribute the improvement to pressure on the frog pushing the bone back into place. When show season starts back up I am going to try maintaining there feet with frog support, my choice for frog support is the Myron Mclaine pad and Equipak. I have already done this with a few horses and I am seeing good results and getting possitive feedback from the riders. No matter what type of shoeing one does, though it is very important that the farrier trims the feet correctly and useing common sense. Balance the feet the best you can however use common sense when trimming, I have seen disasters created by people wanting the toe shorter and they end op going too far into the sole and makeing the horse sore. Believe it or not, not all problems are caused by the toe being too long, they can also be trimmed too short in an attempt to achieve a proper pasturn hoof alignment. Especially in these hind feet with reverse rotation and bull noseing. I think some people see the bull noseing and broken back axis and assume the heels are too short and the toe too long. This leads to a downward spiral if people try to fix the problem by leaving the heels and trimming the toe shorter. I hope this helps.

[Ronald Aalders]

Ric Redden once told me a little trick he uses to guestimate if the HPA of the hind foot is more or less what it should be.

On a hind leg with it's cannon bone perpendicular to the ground, draw an imaginary line following the coronet and extend that line forward.

When the angle is ok, the line should end up a little above the carpus of the front leg. This is a rule of thumb, but works pretty good.

If you use this you'll notice just how few horses have a decent HPA on their hindfeet.


Ronald Aalders