Overreaching... loosing shoes... chipped hoofs?

[spare00m]

Hi... was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions... I have an Arab x.

Each set she has put on I seem to always to loose one! This is leaving my pony with poor feet and costing alot of additional costs.

She does overreach and only looses the shoes when she is turned out... (I already checked for wire etc)... and so with the shoes coming off so regularly the hoofs are very chipped.. parts broken away... I wonder because of this the shoe cannot be put on properly?

The other problem my pony does mess around... nothing nasty but wont stand still... could this affect the way my farrier puts the shoes on?

Basically I just wondered if anyone has a better way to keep the shoes on, with an overreaching pony?... and also how can I get my pony to stand still for the farrier?

Thank you

[Brian Purrington]

Could you post some pics....?

[Southerngurl]

Pick up her feet every single day. Only release the foot when she is being still, keep ahold of it and move with the foot when she is squirming. Also, just doing general groundwork and desensitizing will help give her a better mind and make her better to work with all around.

[spare00m]

Thank you..

I do pick her feet out every day, and have even tried pretending to hammer on her feet (this is the part that every time she moves around the most when having her feet down)...

When I bought her at 5 years old her feet were basically untouched and she would drop on you... she is now 7 and is fine with me with feet... the only thing I can think of... she has a bit of thing about men... the only men she deals with are the farrier and the vet... it's quite hard to get any males I know to come out and spend time with her. So the only men she sees are ones who inject her or put shoes on her...still I know its no excuse!

I have thought of drugs... my farrier says he feels she isn't too bad and doesn't need them yet... but the reason I bought behaviour up... is I am wondering becuase of the moving around, maybe he cann't get the shoes on properly hence they keep coming off?

Also regarding maintainence to stop the overreaching and pulling the shoe off... what should I be doing?... I currently pick her feet out and am applying Keratex Hoof gel to stop the water setting in... I am going to buy the Keratex Hoof Strenghteren (will start it on the weekend)... But the farrier has said to me that her feet are already strong.... She's worked 6 days a week and is quite balanced... I have also now started adding biotin to her feed, but she has only been feed that for 2 weeks now... Like I mentioned before she just seems when she is turned out to pull a shoe off.

I will go and take some pictures so you can see what they look like.

Many thanks

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Read posts 3 and 4 in this link:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=63305&highlight=hatred#post63305

[Phil Armitage]

I get comments a lot of how the horses seem to enjoy being shod (manacured) like a day at the spa. :D

[Gary_Miller]

Thank you..

I do pick her feet out every day, and have even tried pretending to hammer on her feet (this is the part that every time she moves around the most when having her feet down)... I would bet you she is worse on her hind feet at steps away when you go to pick up her feet. When I have a horse that does this all I do is take them out in an open pen or place, a round pen works best, where I can make the horse move when it steps away. All I do is make the horse turn his head towards the side I'm on and the get the horse to disengage their hind quarter for awhile. When the horse acts like it wants to stop I make them go somemore until I tell it to stop. Then I go right back to doing what I was doing as if nothing happened. If the horse moves again I do the samething only faster and more agressively. It only takes a couple of times and the horse will stand still while you pickup her feet.

the only thing I can think of... she has a bit of thing about men... the only men she deals with are the farrier and the vet... it's quite hard to get any males I know to come out and spend time with her. So the only men she sees are ones who inject her or put shoes on her...still I know its no excuse!I laugh everytime I hear this. Then I go get under the horse and go to work usually without problems.
In most cases its the owners anxity and not that there is a man around. Lots of the problems with horses is the owners anxity that their horse won't behave for the farrier. When this happens the best thing to do is remove the owner.
OTOH, will discussing this statement about men with my mentor. His thoughts were that women and men smell diffrent. Especally women who ware perfumes. And since women are around some horses more than men. The smell of a man is diffrent and the horse may be nervous at first. If this is the case a man just needs to take sometime and let the horse smell them and get use to them first. Instead of just walking up to the animal and going to work.

[Kaydence]

I used to get a significant number of women who would hire me to work on their horses just because their horses "don't like men," and back when I started, I assumed it was the association that many of the vets were male and in the area I was in, a lot of the farriers had more ego than skill so there were always negative experiences related to the men around the horses.

As time has gone on, my conclusion is that it is 99% an owner issue. And that goes for most of the behavioural "quirks" the horses present. I joke that the reason my horses are bomb proof is I'm very obtuse to things when I'm working with them. I don't bother thinking about what they might not do and I just go ahead with doing what we're doing. Many owners begin to "work around" their horses behaviours and then to think up excuses for them and before you know it, the horse has things that it will never do or will always do and the owner is convinced they were correct about the emotional state of the horse from the begining. I can't be bothered to figure out why my yearling spooked and almost stepped on me: like her momma does to her, I smack her for getting into my space and keep walking and baby learns to watch me more than whatever it was she thought looked scary before. Who cares what she was looking at? Safety lies in paying more attention to the lead mare and less attention to butterflies and horses know this if they have someone more assertive than a butterfly around them.

If the mare is trained to focus on the owner/handler, then it shouldn't matter who picks up the feet. She should stand as still for the farrier as she does for the owner and if she figets, the owner should be correcting her (with communication to the farrier so he/she doesn't get injured.). If you have to ask the farrier to step away from her for a moment while you get her attention back on you quickly and directly, that is better use of everyones time than the farrier working around her quirks.

Cheri

[Fabienne]

Hi! I am a new member of this forum. French but based in the UK. I bumped into this forum while looking for information on hoof rings, and decided to join.

About pulling front shoes off:
My mare used to often pull the odd front shoe off when turned out, especially if the field was muddy. A farrier suggested I could turn her out with overreach boots on. This was 2 and 1/2 years ago, nearly 3. Since then my mare has lost a front shoe less than 5 times before she was due for a full set.

About making a fuss when having their feet picked up:
I am a qualified Equine Body Worker, practicing sports massage on horses. I had a patient who I was told on my first visit had to be sedated for a hoseing sessions; for every single one. Her entire body was extremely tense and massage started relaxing her, which her owner noticed after the very first session. After 3 sessions she was due her full set of new shoes. Guess what! For the first time ever the mare was shod without having to be sedated! And from then on she never had to be again. I worked on this mare a lot because she really needed it. Many other issues she had were solved with sports massage and passive stretching.

Faby
www.equitact.co.uk

[spare00m]

Could you post some pics....?

Hi... Brian I have put some pictures up on the following links:-

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e159/boogacannon/SP_A0069.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e159/boogacannon/SP_A0068.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e159/boogacannon/SP_A0066.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e159/boogacannon/SP_A0065.jpg

This set of shoes is coming up to six weeks old which are going to be re-done on Thursday.. I have asked my farrier if they should be done earlier but he tells he this is the right amount of time for my pony. The pictures are of the front feet, as you can see, when I brought her in today, the inside nail has slipped back... the shoe has moved... so probably the shoe will be off (again) tomorrow (big shigh)... so I will have to get my farrier out before Thursday now.....


Regarding:-

Gary_Miller Quote:

"I would bet you she is worse on her hind feet at steps away when you go to pick up her feet...." and "I laugh everytime I hear this. Then I go get under the horse and go to work usually without problems...In most cases its the owners anxity and not that there is a man around"

I can confirm she is not worse on her hind feet... with me she is fine on all fours... Like I mentioned before... she hadn't had her feet touched until she was 5... she was running in a herd... but when I got her... after repeating picking her feet up at least once a day she has become very good to pick her feet up... also I can confirm there is no anxity about not having a man around, the reason I brought this thought up was after my male vet, (who is very good), gave her a micro-chip she has deffiniately remembered him for that reason as before she did not fear him but did after that.... I would agree with you that horses (and animals) respond to smell and hormones... which I thought might effect her... I will try to get my father out to spend time with her as my partner is not very keen on horses


Regarding:-

"Phil Armitage - I get comments a lot of how the horses seem to enjoy being shod (manacured) like a day at the spa."

Thank you... my last horse was very much like this... my farrier is very kind, is not aggressive and a really nice guy... seems my pony doesn't feel the same about him and almost gets bored of waiting for the shoes to go on.

Regarding:- Thred from Fabienne - Thank you for your helpful comments ...I did think of putting the overreach boots on (I always ride in them) but my pony does live out... is it ok to leave them on 24/7?

I have also started with the passive stretching as had she really likes it... I have been shown some basic streaches by my phsyo-therapist for her... she does them ready for me... she is so keen she will pick up her feet up ready for me before I even ask her to do start... she is very willing to please (most of the time)... say 95% of the time.... just that 5% is when she isn't - is when the farrier is working on her.

To Thomas_Ride&Drive and I will go and read your link now... thank you.

Thank you everyone so far for you help! Someone did mentioned to me about having the shoes set further in so she couldn't catch them so easily... is this an option?

Thanks

[Brian Purrington]

Shod too short in the heels, breakover is too far forward and a multitude of other things going on. I would suggest posting pics after the next shoeing so we can see a fresh job.

My guess is that it will look very similar..... :o

As to "shoeing closer in the heels so he can't catch them as easily"... Actually, shoeing with more heel out behind and moving the breakover back a bit would probably help your immediate concern. Moving the BO back helps get the foot off the ground faster and out of the way of the hinds. (speeds up the front end)

The other, arguably more pertinent, issues to address are M/L balance, A/P balance, the underrun heels, and getting a good trim. You may also have some neg or zero plane issues going on as well. Probably could tell more with some solar shots and some more direct lateral shots.

Just my two cents....

[Dave Whitaker]

Thank you..



it's quite hard to get any males I know to come out and spend time with her.



Post pics of yourself.......................

[John Barney]

I have seen many horses with this problem including my own Arabian. It seems the short coupled horses with long legs are mostly the ones. As stated before it is a timing matter. Speed up the front and slow down the hind. This can be as simple as moving the front breakover back or you may have to use a rocker toe on front, with it being a light shoe, and a full fit heavy hind shoe. I agree with the shape of the feet, heels are underrun and the hoof quality doesn't look good. Looks like thrush has eaten the white line where the nails are. Why do most horses I see in England have toe clips? I have never needed to use them to keep shoes on. The new shoe job would be great to see.

JB

[smitty88]

JB,
i dont think its about clips in this job the work could be better
that is the way they shoe in England and in lots

of other countrys
if you can get your foot prep and fit right you will

have few shoes off
bye the way its alot easier fitting without clips

in my opinion

[goeslikestink]

no-- not always mine arnt like that
i would surgest you get another farrier look on the farriers.co.uk web page for a local one in your area
as this work is nto what i would be happy with you have a lot of issues and your pony would perhaps do better being hot shod

i ceretainlly wouldnt be happy but you do need to work on your pony by daily pick outs and picks up feet and tap them every day
and also pick pooh in your feilds and stable to be kept clean
if you pick out in stable or yard then put a bucket under the foot to collect the the dirt - wash the foot and then dry the foot - play about with the feet by doing things to them so the horse stands still for the farrier

[goeslikestink]

change your farrier hes fitting the foot to the shoe and not the shoe to the foot - hot shoeing would benifit your pony

[Brian Ober]

Since this only seems to happen when the horse is turned out use easy boots:)

[spare00m]

change your farrier hes fitting the foot to the shoe and not the shoe to the foot - hot shoeing would benifit your pony

Hello, thank you everyone for all your helpful comments, I will put some pictures up soon.

I do get my pony hot shod.

I have been applying Karatex Hoof Hardener and the feet are looking much better but still signs of crumbling. I am also putting over reach boots on when she is now out in the field, which is 24/7 (hopefully they wont rub).

What are Easy Boots? Please can you tell me more, I am very interested in hearing about them? Thank you.

[goeslikestink]

hot shoeing is when the shoe is made and burnt into the foot
the toe clips and side clips of hinds are burnt in and seated

the piccys of your horses feet show non of that and the toe clip is out and above the foot - when in fact t should be seated into the foot

the feet under the shoe are jaggered and not rasped and dress as they should be

[spare00m]

hot shoeing is when the shoe is made and burnt into the foot
the toe clips and side clips of hinds are burnt in and seated

the piccys of your horses feet show non of that and the toe clip is out and above the foot - when in fact t should be seated into the foot

the feet under the shoe are jaggered and not rasped and dress as they should be


Hi, thank you- yes he deffinately does hot shoeing.... heats the shoes up, offers them up on to the hoof, then cuts way where clips are, cools the shoes down and nails them on... Is this what is meant by hot shoeing... I'm deffenately paying for her to be hot shod, so hopefully he is doing it?:confused:

[Curtis Harding]

I have to agree with Shawn. Pull those shoes back. When your farrier does the feet does he pull all the shoes first, trimm all the feet second, get all the shoes ready next, nail on each shoe, file each foot than clinch each foot last or just do them one foot at a time? The shorter the period of the horses foot having to be up, the better it seems to work for me.Especially with a fussy horse. Don't give them a reason to pull away if there allready that good. Just a thought! If I had a horse loosing shoes on a regular basis it's time to try something new. Shorten up that toe,get those heels back and in the extreme if the pony is still overreaching maybe try a breakover shoe that is squared off in front.Thoro'bred makes a barrel racing shoe that might "do the trick". Most times you just require a ballanced foot with proper shoe placement.
Just my opinion
Curtis