Please Help? Navicular

[Kellee Schmick]

Please help, my16 Quarter horse gelding is lame at a jog in the rf. Vet came out did x-rays, flex test, nerve block. They tell my they cant find anything wrong with him. Maybe a sprain. He has been on stall rest for 2 weeks, no inprovement. Had the farrier come out he says he has thrush really bad, treat the problem, thrush is healing up but he is still lame at a jog in the rf. He suspects that it could be navicular. Any suggestions or comments on the problem. THanks

[caballus]

Well, Kellee ... I was waiting for someone else to answer first because my answer is not going to be a popular one. That said, I'll tell you what *I* would do if it were my own horse:

1st I'd turn the horse out 24/7 with free choice shelter. I'd spread his hay all over the place so he has to MOVE to get to it. I'd get that horse moving and moving and moving some more to get the circulation going throughout his hooves and lower limbs. Secondly, I'd make sure that he had thrush and not yeast. If you treat for thrush, and there *is* a little bit of it, the yeast will feed off the dead thrush and thrive. So I'd probably use an Australian Tea Tree Oil treatment as well as take a good hard look at the diet and remove any sugars and high carbs; go to a whole grain such as oats with a vitamin supplement, fat supplement if needed and free choice mineral and plain salt. Now, for the most controversial part - if there are shoes on this horse I'd pull them post haste and have him trimmed up correctly as close to a "natural" hoof as possible. Get the heels lowered enough so the frog has ground contact, both passive while resting and active while moving. Make sure the bars are trimmed down; get the toes trimmed back (not from the bottom but from the front) so the hoof measures close to maybe 3 1/2" from coronary band to ground; get the toe rockered a bit so the horse can start to walk heel-first and the breakover is where it should be for this particular critter; get the hooves trimmed symmetrical on solar as well as frontal shape with the fronts being nice and round and the backs oval shaped. (no rockering toes in the back, tho) ... and then, did I say that I'd get this horse m-o-v-i-n-g ???? Yep, and moving even more. If he's tender soled from wearing shoes and having thin soles, have him go out on some hard ground like a tarred road or driveway several times a day at a walk. No gravel but smooth, hard ground. If he's not head-bobbing lame at the walk then I'd ride him gently at the walk using some sort of protective boot, if necessary. And then, I'd move him some more. Walk, walk, walk, walk. An easy way to keep a horse moving is to turn him out with other horses. They'll move him and he'll be a happier camper having some friends/herd mates.

And, that's what I would do if he were my horse. Oh! I'd also probably be giving him some White Willow Bark for a few weeks, maybe a small handful of cut & sifted in his oats 1X or 2X daily AND ... some Vitamin C and Echinacae and maybe even some Blessed Thistle to help strengthen and help to detoxify his liver so the blood that is beginning to circulate more and more through his hooves will be as healthy as possible.

And now, for the "other side" ??? Farriers?

*VBG* --caballus

[Jeanie Connors]

Caballus gives good advice here, despite the protest of many ;) . Kellee, navicular syndromw does not have to be as scary or career-ending as so many people believe, and can be easy to truly heal, given plenty of freedom of movement and a barefoot way of life :) .

[Kellee Schmick]

Thank you both for your information! He has never nor does he now have shoes. My farrier recommened shoes if the problem persists. I will turn him out today and let him run, usually he is out with 8 other gelding, so he does get plenty of exercise when he is out. Before he became lame he was ridden two to three times a week. I will follow your recommendations and see what happens. He has he heart of a four year old and I am not ready to retire him yet, so any information or treatment are greatly appriciated.

[dehere98]

To Caballus-

Forgive me for interrupting your post Kelly.

Can you explain how this process works internally on the horses foot?
My horse has been barefoot 8 months, has grown beautiful feet, 24/7 turnout, free choice hay, whole oats, supplement, movement.
He went lame 8 weeks ago and has not improved at all.
We know he's navicular and has dropped coffin bones.

Thanks. Maybe this will help us both Kelly.


Jenn

[caballus]

Well, Jenn -- if he's turned out, gets free choice low grade hay etc. I'd have to take a look at the shape and form of his hooves. If its not metabolic then it would be mechanical failure.

--cab

[dehere98]

Cab,

What I want to know is 'how it works?'

Strasser believes navicular/heel pain is caused by over grown bars pushing into the tender navicular region.
And with each step is a painful lever force.
I've seen the dissection, so I know this happens, however I don't believe this is the 'sole' reason for the cause of navicular.
I'm interested in your take on it.

Thanks, Jenn

[Dave Purves]

Ok, Cab I agree with you to a certain extent. If the vet can't find anything with x-rays or nerve block or flex test, then it's time to go to the University and get an ultrasound or MRI done that can see the soft tissue. You're suspecting navicular symptoms based on what your farrier said, but what did the vet say. He or she had to at least notice the horse was lame, and then get a decent idea of where the lameness originates. Sometimes shoulder pain can look like heel pain. And Cab, I hope you're not eluding to the fact that you think shoes and nails damage the liver. I hope you're smarter than that. My only concern for total turnout is what if it's soft tissue damage, the lateral cartilages, the digital cushion, what if it's in the shoulder, muscle tear or sprain. What if he just got the snot kicked out of him by one of his pasture buddies and chipped the point of shoulder, or a spling bone, or has such a small fracture that without perfect x-rays, you can't see it? There are too many variables and questions that have not been answered to say just turn him out, give him a "natural" trim (whatever that is, from what I've seen it's not much different than my "pasture trim") and he'll be back to running circles in no time. Now the point that I agree with, let him out, see what happens, but if in a few days he's not feeling better then you need to take him to a vet that can do MRI's or ultra sound. You can't fix the problem if you don't know what it is. He may have bruised the digital cushion, and I'm sure that running around the pasture isn't going to feel good, the nice thing about pasture is he can stand still if he wants as long as his buddies will leave him alone. Watch him carefully the first couple of times you turn him loose.

Strasser is a kook, Alot of things can cause heel pain, or navicular sypmtoms. And no a natural trim cannot fix all of them. I would welcome any "natural trimmer" to come and trim one of the horses that I work on and keep him sound. Not only does he have navicular, he had a good dose of laminitis and side bones, with just a touch of ring bone. Any takers, I'm going out there on monday?
Dave Purves CF ;)

[caballus]

Hi Jenn and Dave! Let me first say that I don't believe that *the* Strasser trim is a "natural" trim. I don't believe, either, that there is any one trim that fits all hooves. That's just not according to nature, either. Dave, the theory that shoes and nails harm the liver? Well, only to the point that if the iron from the nail, or the rust or whatever compound is there gets into the blood stream then it would tax the liver in just the mere fact that the liver would have to work harder to be rid of the toxins in the blood. But that's true of any foreign substance that gets into the blood stream including preservatives, fertilizers and other chemicals that are used to grow the grain that makes the feeds and hay. ;)

To address your question, Jenn, yes, I do believe that overgrown bars will cause navicular pain. But I don't feel that they're THE reason for navicular. When we start looking at the trees instead of the forest we miss alot and even more so when we begin to inspect just one leaf of one tree. Hooves and horses go together as a whole unit. So when I see less than healthy hooves I have to look to the rest of the picture, too. Feed, environment, use, social, emotional, etc. etc. We can microscope the feed; we can microscope the environment and we can give as close to perfect as we can possibly give but ... if one portion of the entire unit is off its going to have an affect on the rest of the unit, too. A depressed horse will not be as healthy as a content horse. An obese horse is not going to be healthy as a fit horse. Etc. etc. A horse that lives in fear is going to have repercussions throughout its body including its hooves, eventually, as the entire equine system is taxed. A horse with a physical/hoof issue is going to be affected mentally and emotionally. There is balance in all of nature, naturally. When the balance is thrown off kilter for some reason all is affected. Long standing imbalances cause issues. So, that's a given, right?

As to the mechanical ... as I said, I look to the natural hoof for my answers. Imbalances in the hooves will cause detrimental issues and pain. Sometimes there is mainly just one factor such as bars but that's rarely the case. One needs to ascertain where the breakover is, how the hoof lands, how long are the heels? Do the heels allow passive contact of the frog with the ground so the frog can do its job? The frog needs to be used to dissipate energy and, in doing so, will affect the workings of the digital cushion that also dissipates energy. They are both fluid filled; fluid dissipates energy. If, for some reason one is less than efficient then it will ripple effect to the other causing imbalance. The frog also is part of the circulatory system and helps to keep the nutrient and oxygen filled blood circulating efficiently through the hoof and the lower limbs. Since the DDFT routes around the navicular and is attached to the P3, it is part of all this in the fact that it receives the action of the frog and the DC. The breakover is part of all this, too - if the breakover is too far in front of the toe of the P3, it causes undue pressures to the P3, itself, but not only that, it affects the action of the entire hoof. If the horse is landing toe first because the actual toe of the hoof is left too long, the energy is shot right up through the front of the leg instead of through the back through the frog, DC, where it is dissipated greatly before even reaching the other soft tissues, ligs and tendons, etc. If the horse is landing harder on one side of the hoof than the other due to imbalanced walls then, again, everything else is affected on up through the shoulder, neck and back. If the walls are left too long and are weight bearing by themselves its much the same as what leverages on your own fingernails would do -- begin to tear away at the connections between the nail and the finger. This causes pain and ripples effects all the way through the rest of the hoof. The walls of the hoof are meant to share the load with the sole. And so on and so forth. I look to get the hooves balanced; I like to imagine superimposing folded hooves (individual to each hoof; not to each other) if that's possible; sometimes its not possible due to the individual horse's conformation of the hooves and distal limbs. It's all taken into consideration; balance, level, shape, lengths, pressures, etc. -- as close to what mother nature designed as possible but also in accordance with the horse's living and working/playing environment. Soft ground, hard ground, dry ground, wet ground, rocky ground, etc. etc. Soft ground means longer heels and less arch in the quarters. Hard ground means a rounder roll around the hoof. I just told a horse owner to start throwing rocks back INTO the paddock because she says her horse is ouchy on rocky trails. Well, if the hooves are not conditioned to rocks because the horse lives on grass, common sense tells me that of COURSE the horse is going to be ouchy on rocky trails. So, make a rocky area that the horse HAS to walk over in order to get to the barn, or drink or whatever so the hooves can condition themselves. Living on grass means longer heels, more imbalances to the hooves and more frequent trimming/care is required. Longer heels on rocks will be ouchy. Soft soles on rocks will be ouchy. Common sense goes a long way.

I don't believe that we treat *the hoof*. We work and treat the entire body and mind of the horse. So, to say that there is one thing that causes navicular is not correct. It is a combination of imbalances, forces and leverages that have gotten out of whack and been out of whack for awhile. That imbalance has, by the time its affected the navicular, has also affected the rest of the body in some manner. Correct the mechanics (shape, lengths, widths, breakover, landing, balance etc.) of the hooves and if the rest of the horse and environment is in balance as much as possible, the issue should resolve if it has not degenerated to the point of no return. i.e. -- spurs on the navicular that are shredding the DDFT to bits and pieces.

The hoof is a marvel of science. It is amazing that this little, tiny, piece of nature's design can withstand 12,000# of pressure landing on this 4" round hoof for the 1000# horse jumping over 2 ft. of log. It's amazing that the skinny little bones do not shatter to pieces with the weight and leverages and pressures of the horse and its movements. It is designed in balance specifically for its job. When that design gets altered then it stresses the unit. When the design is allowed to recover to its natural state then the unit will recover, as well. Of course, again, there are points of no return but I would hope that, as hoofcare providers, that we would take it all seriously enough to be preventative, rather than reactive. Of course when we're inheriting the results of prior abuses or neglect then we can't always be preventative at the start. But we can help to correct and THEN be preventative with diligence and care.

And that's my story for the day ... gotta git to work.

:) --cab

[dehere98]

Cab,

I appeciate your thoughtful response.

My TB had a very diffucult time adjusting to the 24/7 turnout and the whole oats, but 8 months later he looks wonderful. He's gained weight, his winter coat is thick and gleaming and his hooves look great! Strange how the hooves can look so good and be sore at the same time.

Would you be interested in looking at the pictures of his hooves?


Jenn :)

[Pegasus Ranch]

undefinedHave you had X-rays? I wish you luck. Your vet should have good recommendations. I have a 8 year old Paint that has navicular in front hooves. Not from founder but prior to my purchase he must have been ridden hard on hard surfaces and injured him. We have corrective shoes with pads, Bute when in pain, and med. to help with circulation. Can anyone suggest anything else? I don't want to do the injections and nerve him. Thank you

[caballus]

Hi Jenn ... of COURSE - I'd love to see photos. Full body shots AND hooves! Thanks for the offer.

:) -- Gwen (caballus)

[caballus]

Pegasus ... I'd like to see photos of your horse's hooves, too. Can't really tell much through letters on a puter screen! ;)

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

Please help, my16 Quarter horse gelding is lame at a jog in the rf. Vet came out did x-rays, flex test, nerve block. They tell my they cant find anything wrong with him. Maybe a sprain. He has been on stall rest for 2 weeks, no inprovement. Had the farrier come out he says he has thrush really bad, treat the problem, thrush is healing up but he is still lame at a jog in the rf. He suspects that it could be navicular. Any suggestions or comments on the problem. THanks

Hi Kellee, it sounds like your Vets ruled out any major things, which is good news. Thrush can cause pain and can get deep into the frog. The soreness can last for awhile until the affected tissue heals. Try useing white lightning, it penetrates the foot and will kill fungus and bacteria that gets deep into the frog. I would put shoes on until your horse has healed from the damage caused by the thrush. I do not know what your useing as a thush medication, most products can be too harsh and burn the frog tissue that scabs over and creates a dead layer that will trap bacteria and start the process all over again. Another method that works well is sugardyne this is a mixture of sugar and iodine it kills bacteria and also hardens the frog. Ask your Vet and Farrier about these things. You can get information on how to use White Lightning on the Internet. Hope this helps and let us know what you find and how your horse made out.

[Kellee Schmick]

Thanks Phil.
I use white lighting, they make a gel formula now that is great!!! The thrush is pretty well healed. He is still lame. Had another vet check him out do more x-rays and antother nerve block. He does have nevicular but only in the rf.. We put a tennesse nevicular shoe and he is getting bute. Shows signs of improvement, but is still pretty lame. My vet is going to New Bolton tomorrow for other reason but is taking my horses x-rays to see if any of there doctors have any other opinions. Thank you!!!

[Kellee Schmick]

I give up? We tried shoes, x-rays, nerve blocks, etc. Nothing has helped. New Bolton said he does has navicular, only option is to denerve him. Not an option in my book. Don't know what else to do. When is it time to say enought is enough and retire him? Thanks

[TE Couch]

Post sole and side view photos if you can - you will get opinions.
TE

[caballus]

Ain't time to quit til the fat lady trims ... or something like that. You've explored all other avenues now why not, as most do, try the "last resort" and find yourself a GOOD natural hoofcare specialist to take off the shoes and get the horse trimmed up? What can you lose? You and your horse certainly stand alot to gain ...

--Gwen

[Donnie Walker]

Kellee - "Navicular Syndrome" is a broad based term with many possibilites. It has been my experience that a difinitive diagnosis, specifically identifying the affected area, is necessary before a treatment process can be initiated, otherwise you will be on a mission of "trial and error". This might be where you now find yourself. I have attached a photo of one treatment process that has worked for me. I bought this particular horse because he had been diagnosed with navicular and it had been recommended he be nerved. The previous owner had competed on him for eight years. The digital radiographs indicated lesions on the bone itself but not to the extent I thought nerving was necessary. The price was right so my wife was now the proud owner of a crippled barrel horse. That's just our style, as we love to see them recover. He came with navicular egg bars, no frog support, long toes, long heels, improper positioned breakover, could barely walk, with or without the shoes. Do I need to go further? Research has proven that a two degree wedge elevation will reduce pressure on the navicular bone by 25%, so, with experience and research on my side I applied the EDSS standard wedge pad with frog support, impression material and the natural balance aluminum shoe pictured. After two months I had a comfortable horse that has not taken a bad step in 10 months. He loves his job, competes weekly and has paid for himself 10 times over in the 2-D level. I have many others in a variety of systems that compete and remain outwardly sound.

I certainly am not suggesting this system is for you. I would like for it to serve only as encouragement that perhaps there is hope before throwing in the towel. If barefoot doesn't work, consider trying something different, but give it time to work or fail before moving on. Best of luck.

[calshoer]

You say you have tried"shoes.....everyhing" but believe me there are a LOT ofways to the****utialy shoe a horse and sometimes the shoes did not really get to the rot of the problem inernally.Ihve see nand done some hopeless lamenes cases with bnaviculr ,ven with severe changes on the bone itself that were abole to come bck to comfort and work with more thourouh addressing of the internal hoof weakeneses, imbalances,and consequent damage. If there is pain or damge in the the supensry ligament of the navicular bone, or spurs on the wings of the bone for example it might take a full roller motion shoe similar to a ringbone shoe to ease the stresses in the turns. Maybe with more wedge too, Or rails so ease breakover all around the foot, or it might take a LOT of wedge at first to allow an impar ligament to heal, (I have stacked two wedge pads on top of one another in the beginning,) , or more careful attention to the shape and peparation of the heels and bars of the foot if there is caudal heel pain, or the breakover point might need to be placed differently. Or less or more support to the frog, or in a different part of the frog.
Because I have seen personally, (and shod some) horses with very advanced navicular disease, with deterioraion on the bone itself including HUGE spurs go back to work in comfort using more specialized shoeing, I know that all is not always hopelsss. I do one tomorow that has really realy ugly radiographs who went to the team penning world finals a few months ago with EDSS and rails. He could hadly walk when Imet him last year and they had alreay thouht they had tried "shoeing .....everything". Basically all they they had tried was rolled toes and wedge pads. Well they hadn't quite tried everything. A new veterinarian who better understood the REAL root of the problem was key.
Certainly there my be some that are truly beyond repair or comfort , but not all. Patty