founder & bute

[Francine]

Hi everybody!
I'm new to this forum. I read quite a bit already, but I still have a lot to go through. My 10 yr old mare foundered in early December. She has a 6 and 8 degrees rotation in front. We think it's road founder. New farrier cut her very short and it was frozen solid with no snow. You could see it hurt and she wasn't moving much so we put her winter shoes on 2 days later. It was too late I guess as she was in pain, inside and only got worst. Ended up with founder. My vet is working with another farrier on her. She is walking a bit, but you can still see that she has pain. I give her bute morning and night (10 cc x 2) and I started her on Laminasaver about 3 weeks ago (with no result so far...). I also give her peptobismol in case it help preventing ulcers. She is off grain also.

I'm so scared of bute. How long can she stay on bute like that? Any information would help from people that have gone through this. I'm willing to do anything for her and I don't care how long it takes as long as she is not in too much pain and can play with the others.

Any advices or help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Francine

[calshoer]

How much bute for how long into the founder is probably the question of the century. Even the veterinary community is in disagrement. Opinions vary from "none ever" ,to "a little in the beginning only" to "high doses the first couple days then taper off",to "low doses for as long as the horse is in pain without it".
In my own experience as a farrier, ( NOT intended to be a medical opinion),butehas shown to be useful in the VERY beginning of laminitis to reduce inflammation, as long as mechanical support is also used to pevent further damage to the feet when they stand up. I am talking about two or three days. However in my own practice none of the laminitic horses who were kept on bute long term (weeks or more) recovered from the laminitis. . All those who DID recover from laminitis were in the group that were taken OFF the bute after a short while and were left to decide on their own to lay down when the feet hurt. And some of those were BAD founders. It has been do***ented that long term bute can cause secondary problems in the long term such as preventing the horse from lying down to protect his own feet, and can cause enough gut irritation ("leaky gut syndrome" is a do***ented problem) to possibly keep the laminitis ongoing due to toxins getting into the bloodstream. .

In general, whether using bute or not, it is the mechanics of what is applied to the feet that is far more important. In my own opinion and experience it is better if pain relief can be found mechanically via accurate application of bone support, and hoof protection..Then the bute isn't so needed anyway. And the horse can better clinically illustrate to the farrier and vet how the shoeing is working and what changes may be happening in the feet if he is not on bute.
Patty
So talk to your vet. BTW, what has the vet farrier team been doing for the feet exactly?

[caballus]

Hi Francine. Yep, pain has a purpose. In horses it is to keep them quiet for longer periods of time than usual so the injured parts can begin to heal. Masking the pain can be a not-so-good-thing or it can be a very helpful thing depending on the cir***stances.

There are herbal substitutes for Bute that are very safe and very effective. When I have a laminitic or foundered critter to tend, my clients usually have to order the herb, White Willow Bark. They don't usually have it hanging around. So while waiting for the White Willow Bark to come in they'll use Bute for 3 days. Then, switch over to White Willow. WWB is a natural analgesic and anti-inflammatory with the original properties of our own Aspirin - it contains Salicylic Acid but in its natural form so it causes no ulcers or stomach issues. I use it with great success for various issues from Arthritis to Founder to Colic. Another herb is Meadowsweet, also with Salicylic acid properties. Devil's Claw has different properties than both White Willow Bark and Meadowsweet and if used, should only be used for short periods of time as it will cause gut issues if used too long.

If you're interested you can find these at very reasonable prices:
http://www.herbnhorse.com

They take a litte while to arrive so best to order and have on hand before you need it, if possible. Always keep herbs in a dark, cool and dry area.

--caballus

[Jason Maki]

I know i guy named Herb; he hangs out in his moms damp basement,under a black light, listening to the Grateful Dead, using a "medicinal " herb all the time! Maybe thats why he quit working! Whenever somone knocks on the door, he says"Daves not here"! Duh, I was not looking for Dave, I was looking for Herb(not "herb") He eats alot of Devil's Claws too, or maybe those were bear claws? :D
This is only a ****** joke, not intended for any sarcastic purposes whatsoever!
JAson

[caballus]

Nope -- you speak of a different "pain killer" ;)

--cab

[Phil Armitage]

I am really glad to see Patty's comment on not masking the pain for laminitis/founder. I totaly agree that the pain should not be masked, herbly or any other antiinflamatory like bute. I have witnessed horses on bute being way to active during the time when they should be laying down or just standing still, most of the damage is from mechanical stress like movement and weight on the feet. I can see giveing bute early on and keeping the horse in the stall and this is a common practice to reduce inflamation and get the horse comfortable, this might be a good idea as long as the horse is weened off the bute as soon as possible, even if they are kept in the stall many horses tend to get stressed being kept in to long and will pace or weave in there stalls causeing more mechanical stress on there feet. Horses can get restless within a day or two if kept in, I have seen situations where horses rest better turned out as long as there is not another horse disturbing them and makeing them move. The biggest problem I have seen with buteing a horse is miscomunications like for how long and how much, it is not clear between the Horse owner and the Vet. Every horse is different, the owner and Farrier knows there horse best and Vet needs a 2 way communications with the owner and Farrier as to what the best protocal for that particular horse. In my opinion Barefoot and proper trimming is probably the best protocal as long as there is good sole thickness I personaly am more comfortable with proper shoeing and frog support to protect the coffin bone from cuncussion, this also helps the horse get out and move around with protection and support. I seen many do very well barefoot without any pain killer. In a case of Road founder shoeing will be needed and should be easly controlled and fully recover. I would wean this horse off the bute and let him determine how much he can move or not. Good luck hope all works out.

[Francine]

Thank you so much everybody! It feels so good to ear from experienced people. I will reduce bute to wean her ASAP.

We had 2 xrays taken so far. In the first stage when she had a 2 and 4 degree rotation. Then 8 weeks later she had 6 and 8. She was doing much better, but two days after the reset, she became lame again. This farrier put a special jelly pad and special shoes on her. For 2 weeks, she was receiving bute in the morning only. I had to increase the dose after the reset. I tried some natural herbs on her also and I didn't see a difference. Maybe I will start again. Apparently Laminasaver is great, but I don't see any results yet.

She has been in in the stable since December. I take her out for about 1 hr in a small paddock during the day. She doesn't walk much, but she rolls and get to see her friends. Should I keep her inside completely?

I tried the link to the styrofoam website and it didn't work, I will try it again now.

Thanks again!
Francine
The desperate...

[Ronald Aalders]

In general, whether using bute or not, it is the mechanics of what is applied to the feet that is far more important. In my own opinion and experience it is better if pain relief can be found mechanically via accurate application of bone support, and hoof protection..Then the bute isn't so needed anyway. And the horse can better clinically illustrate to the farrier and vet how the shoeing is working and what changes may be happening in the feet if he is not on bute.
Patty
So talk to your vet. BTW, what has the vet farrier team been doing for the feet exactly?


Hi Francine,

Like Patty said, mechanics are way more important than the bute issue. Address this as a matter of urgency.

If the pain for your horse gets to big you may not have the luxury of discussing the pro's and con's of bute.



Ronald Aalders

[Katy Watts]

Francine,
I'm in agreement that long term bute only masks any opportunity to find the reason and the solution for the founder.
Both my ponies have Equine Metabolic Syndrome, or Cushing's or whatever they are calling it lately. Their worst months are Dec-Feb, as with many other 'metabolically challenged' horses. I encourage you to get this mare tested for ACTH, insulin, glucose and trigylcerides. This will either point you to the true cause of this founder, or at least solidify your diagnosis of road founder if they are normal.
My 9 YO mare is having another laminitis attack right now. I have been holding off putting her on pergolide as she is so young. I got her diet perfect, but bad weather this winter has not allowed me to keep her excercised, which is extremely important to the managment of this syndrome. I put her back on pergolide 5 days ago, and we ususally see good results within 10 days. I locked her up on deep bedding, and since Patty is my farrier, I'm already know her feet are well supported mechanically. I did put her on bute, but am already weaning off so that she will have it all out of her system by the time the pergolide kicks in. THEN, if she's still not a whole lot better, I will know I need Patty back down here pronto to try Plan B on her feet. She had only 1 gram this morning, and is moving a lot better, so my fingers are crossed the pergolide will work as before.
Best of luck,
Katy

[Francine]

I will get some blood tests done just in case. She started feeling lame the next day after the first farrier came and only got worst. We tought that she was just sensible and it was going to last a few days, but no. She was perfectly fine just before - in great shape. Didn't give her any bute tonight. Will lower the dose tomorrow morning in order to wean her completely.

This farrier was recommended by my vet. He takes him for cases like that. I read about the styrofoam pads and now I'm wondering if I should try that or continue with him and the special aluminum shoes. He is saying that it's looking good and to be patient. What would you do?

I don't know what pergolide is? Any info?

Thanks again
Francine

[Ronald Aalders]

This farrier was recommended by my vet. He takes him for cases like that. I read about the styrofoam pads and now I'm wondering if I should try that or continue with him and the special aluminum shoes. He is saying that it's looking good and to be patient. What would you do?
Thanks again
Francine


Hi Francine,

Talk to your shoer and vet! Discuss with them what the strategy could be and what the options are in this specific case. Don't just pick general info from this board an try to save your horse with it!

If you wish extra info, or wish us to explain the strategy chosen or maybe a second opinion, (as far as we can give that) we're all happy to help!


Ronald Aalders

[SpiritHorse]

THANK YOU for that laugh, after the hell we are going through because of a slipshod job our EX farrier did on our 2 younger horses I really needed it especially since I have a certified farrier going to look at her xrays and come by tomorrow and also check the other horse.
Maybe I should give our 2 and 9yo some "herbs from the backwoods" LOL
Thanks again I am so scared you wouldn't believe it!!!






I know i guy named Herb; he hangs out in his moms damp basement,under a black light, listening to the Grateful Dead, using a "medicinal " herb all the time! Maybe thats why he quit working! Whenever somone knocks on the door, he says"Daves not here"! Duh, I was not looking for Dave, I was looking for Herb(not "herb") He eats alot of Devil's Claws too, or maybe those were bear claws? :D
This is only a ****** joke, not intended for any sarcastic purposes whatsoever!
JAson

[SpiritHorse]

My girls only got a few days then off and then when it flared up again they got it again only a few days.
I worry about giving it and some say it stops the circulation or something like that I can't remember exactly.

I also try and cool them instead of buting them on the off times.