Update back from vet school pics [Archive] - The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center Forums

MonBeauCheval

08-03-2007, 06:48 PM

I posted on here a while back when my horse was diagnosed with navicular. He is a 17 y/o tb.15 when he started having issues. He was barefoot, farrier 2 puts shoes on:
July '06
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/P7180020.jpg
Rf
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/P7180019.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/Image052.jpg

MonBeauCheval

08-03-2007, 06:56 PM

LF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/P7180017.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/Image046.jpg
Needless to say I didn't use farrier 2 long.
Farrier 3 put eggbars on and 6 week schedule instead of eight weeks. Horse improved gradually to complete soundness w/t/c, worked 5-6 days a week. Stayed that way for around 6 months.Then in Dec '07 decreased his isoxsuprine, pushed him too hard in a lesson (cavalletti-dressage exercise not jumping but all the same), put bubble snow pads on all in the same day. And it happened to be the one time I didn't ride after he got shod. Next day NQR, others think just lazy, day after slight lameness RF. Snow pads were removed at next shoeing Jan '07 pics:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0084.jpg
Rf
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0089.jpg

More...

MonBeauCheval

08-03-2007, 06:59 PM

Rf
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0093.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0094.jpg
LF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0098.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0095.jpg

More...

MonBeauCheval

08-03-2007, 07:07 PM

His lameness increased gradually and so I finally got to take him up to the vet school. He was shod by the farrier there:
7-5-07
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0205.jpg
RF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0206.jpg
LF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0210.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0216.jpg

MonBeauCheval

08-03-2007, 07:17 PM

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0214.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0213.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Hooves/IMG_0212.jpg

He was grade 3/5 lame right front, did a palmar digital nerve block with 80% improvement. Then he became lame LF, did a pd nerve block with 90% improvement. Then he was lame RF again. He was negative to all flexions of both forelimbs. Ok now to figure out how to get x-rays on here.

Gary Hill

08-03-2007, 08:23 PM

Those white feet sure show alot of bruising, especially in the quarters. This horse does look to have very upright pasterns and the x-rays will be interesting I'm sure? The heels are way too tall for me, but with the HPA as it is, it looks like nature wasn't very nice to this guy? Sure looks like alot of concussion ! Those eggbars look more like donuts to me? Maybe lowering the heels, wedgeing and increasing breakover would be more comfortable to him?JMO.

calshoer

08-03-2007, 08:45 PM

Unfortunately, that is sort of a 'half way' natural balance shoeing. It unfortunately appears to missing the mark a bit.

The heels of the foot still look too tall. (However without seeing the trimmed barefoot in peparation for the shoe it is hard to say for sure).
It appears though that the heels need more trimming (taken down as far as possible) , THEN add on whatever wedge needed .

Some horses with navicular issues do not tolerate the use of the pour in sole support materials because it can not be regulated to keep it off of the sore area directly under the navicular bone. Some are fine with it some not.
The farrier hopefuly hoof tested the foot before he/she decided to use that material.
Also if the horse is better in a straight line but is having difficulties turning ,there are other shoes that ease the breakover around the SIDES of the foot more than that one.
Quite often there is damage in the impar ligament and /or suspensory ligament of the of the navicular bone ,and a shoe that allows breakover in the turns helps a LOT to ease stresses in those structures.
A rail shoe would have been better mechanically than the plain steel and wedge pad. Email me *privately* if you dont mind, as I am curious what university and what farrier? .

Patty

MonBeauCheval

08-04-2007, 01:01 PM

I'm still working on the rads, I hate my ****** computer.
No, nature was not very nice to him, he's very upright and his legs are pretty crooked. He was hoof tested, no reaction. He's only responded to hoof testing once though, and that was when he had a corn, but he is very stoic.
He is doing a lot better, about a grade 2 lame instead of grade 3. It took two weeks after the first shoeing too notice a difference. He just got reshod again a couple days ago, I was going to get pics before the shoes were put on, but my friend disappeared with my camera. Next time I will though. He's still landing toe first which I am not happy about, though the vet and farrier are pleased he showed improvement after the first shoeing, most horses take a few shoeings for any improvement.

Brian Purrington

08-04-2007, 01:16 PM

most horses take a few shoeings for any improvement.

????? NOT...

MonBeauCheval

08-04-2007, 01:33 PM

Yeah I found that weird, they weren't saying always, just in their experience I guess.

MonBeauCheval

08-04-2007, 03:04 PM

Ok here's the x rays:
RF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0002.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0004.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0005.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0006.jpg

Sole depth on the RF is 11.9mm and toe length is 40.9mm

MonBeauCheval

08-04-2007, 03:07 PM

RF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0007.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0011.jpg

LF
Sole depth-14.5mm toe length-40.2mm
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0003.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0008.jpg

MonBeauCheval

08-04-2007, 03:09 PM

LF
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0009.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0010.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0012.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/xrays0013.jpg

Gary Hill

08-04-2007, 03:49 PM

I wonder how he wore his feet when he was barefooted and do you have any pictures from then? Or maybe you could show how the wear on the shoes are also?

Brian Purrington

08-04-2007, 04:16 PM

If it is in fact pedal ostietis, the pour in's would contribute to lameness (IMO)

From the looks of the shoes he breaks over fairly centered. (But that could be forced by the broad toe and/or hidden by the rolled edge of the shoe.) Feet in the first group of pics looks to have a lot of sole depth and the bars are way forward. You can't even see the definition of the tip of the frog. The group of pics with the eggbar look worse. These feet look hoofbound and stacked to me, but it could just be the camera playin' tricks...

I'd say get some of that retained sole out of the way, get a good trim on him, put him in some SX8's with a rocker and grind the outer edge of the branches all the way to the heel with a radius. Or better yet put 'em in some classic rollers or half rounds. No pour in pad, If you think he is sole sensitive (which I doubt he is) leather pad with magic cushion or forshners.

My two cents....

MonBeauCheval

08-04-2007, 05:30 PM

Sorry I don't have any pics when he was barefoot, that was about a year and a half ago. The vet recommended shoes once we knew it was navicular. I did get him from a neglect situation three years ago and his hooves were terrible; weren't done in who knows how long and in shoes 2 sizes too small. He was fine after I got him fixed up and I had him barefoot for a year and a half. No pics of the shoes but he does wear them evenly. His feet were underrun and sheared barefoot.That farrier also neglected to tell me he couldn't do the hinds anymore and left me wondering why the hinds were chipping so much.

Brian P- First pics we were dealing with terrible thrush, vet said his frogs were so atrophied he was missing about a half an inch of frog. What do you mean by hoofbound? I think he was at 59 degrees in the pics you are referring too. Do you have any comments on the last set of pics? He's only been in NB for four weeks and has improved so I don't want to change the shoeing again but if there's anything that can be done better I'd like to hear it.

The university vet and my regular vet didn't mention pedal osteitis.I'll post the report after I hear what others have to say.

How to you tell sole depth w/o x-rays? First time University farrier shod him he didn't touch the sole, second time he did because he said his soles were thicker and I asked about it but I didn't full understand what he was saying. He left the rim pads on also, but he said it wasn't necessary. Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming.

Brian Purrington

08-05-2007, 06:45 AM

Here are some pics of a Hoofbound horse... Check out how his frog "disappears" into the sole. Look familiar?

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t59/wellshodhorses/Hoofbound/?action=view&current=52a8cf44.pbw

Hoofbound (this may be an old teminology) is contracted and held in place by thick sole, tall heels and typically accompanied by withered frogs. This horse is 23 years old and had been shod repeatedly (before me) with the idea that he had "navicular" they had him in "eggbars" that looked like a rectangle about 3-7/8 wide by about 53/4 long. I have been shoing him now for almost two years in a regular shoe fit full with lots of "roll" all the way around the shoe. He lands laterally on the quarters on the front end and is fairly straight forward on the hind end (no comformational issues there afflicting him).

You will notice that even now with some spread in his heels, which were almost touching about two years ago, his feet are still smaller in width at the bottom of the foot than the coronary band. Being new to "corrective" protocols I have struggled with whether to try to "fix it" or "manage it". Ultimately, in this case, the horse told me to manage it. I have made some progress in getting him to spread a little, but that being said, he's 23 and too much change for this guy might not be favorable. Keeping him "sound" and comfortable is most important.

Not saying this is the case for your guy, just showing a similar situation to let you see what can happen if left for a long time un-addressed. Incidentaly, Gatsby is sound and wins regularly in the hack and low jumps. Not bad for an old man....
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t59/wellshodhorses/Gatsby/S4021007.jpg

As to the last set of pics... If it works, it works. Only time will tell. There is NO silver bullet. Every case has different variables that have to be considered first hand. (JMO)

MonBeauCheval

08-05-2007, 09:54 PM

Ok thanks I get what your saying now. How do you tell sole depth w/o x-rays? Anyone want to comment what they see in the x rays? Navicular isn't the only thing going on.

Brian Purrington

08-05-2007, 10:03 PM

Stop on red..... :eek:

Nah, you should be able to pare sole and then test with hoof testers, little bit by little bit. thumb pressure also works, but I wouldn't suggest taking all of the "newly exfoliated sole" out all at once. Do it over a couple of shoeings. One way to soften up the old sole is to warm it with heat gun or soak it in some warm water. Any farrier should be able to do this and have no problems.

MonBeauCheval

08-05-2007, 10:34 PM

Oh ok I was just wondering because his soles were thin, and then the next shoeing the farrier trimmed it.I think he said his long toes were causing his soles to thin. What normally causes thin soles? He is a tb so is it just a part of breed? Or if long toes do cause soles to thin, is the tb thing just because of long toes commonly seen on tbs? I'm just frustrated because I want him sound now. The farrier didn't seem too concerned when I told him he's still landing toe-first. When he first started being off he was just landing toe first on the RF so I figure get him to land correctly, it'll get him sound. I've got some Adequan on the way so hopefully that will make a difference too; he's hasn't been on any joint supplement for a month since he ran out and I decided to start the Adequan. Interestingly enough, the chiro did make him a little sounder, though that didn't last. He has shivers too so it puts his whole body out of wack.

Brian Purrington

08-05-2007, 11:02 PM

The rads you posted do not show a thin soled horse IMO.
Stretched toe and or flares can cause the sole to stretch and thus become thin, much like a peice of rubber.
Tb's have been labeled as having poor quality feet. That is not my personal experience, but there are some that do have poor horn quality and "thin" soles. I think it's mostly related to breeding and early/prior hoof care.
Landing toe first means he doesn't want to use his heels... that means "heel"/ caudal or ligament pain, and that is related to his condition (navicular) and the hoof form. Contracted, tall heels and bound.
In order to get him to land correctly you are going to have to minimize the caudal foot pain.
Based on what you are telling me, Navicular, possible pedal ostietis, and you say "more", you have a challange at best on your hands.

If it is any encoragement to you, not all "navicular" horses are "done". Here is one that the owner considered uthenizing and now he is being used in a thereputic program. It took some time, but we did manage to get him comfortable and happy.

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t59/wellshodhorses/Nemo/

Jaye Perry

08-06-2007, 05:53 AM

MonBeauCheval- How do you tell sole depth w/o x-rays?You can't- sole depth is reletive to the foot and pathologies within the foot, conformation and genetics.

Anyone want to comment what they see in the x rays? Navicular isn't the only thing going onThere are a lot of points of interests in the coffin joints- your pics show "puffy" ankles, rads show lack of joint spacings within these joints, lateral hemmoraging in the walls indicates uneven load.Typical for an aged horse.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/xrays0003.jpg

A long "Nanner" barshoe, rim pad with some "Pudding" in the bottom filled upto the level of the rim pad- not level with the shoe. The long barshoe would support ankles, puts no pressure on caudal portion of frog in Nav bursa area and rim pad gives profile from compromise sole depth in back 2/3's of the foot.

Brian Purrington

08-06-2007, 07:10 AM

Jaye, this may sound ignorant, but looking at the rads, I see a foot with a ton of heel, weak digital cushion and a bullnosed profile on the dorsal aspect of P3. Is this considered a negative palmer angle whithin the hoof capsule? I know in relation to the ground P3 is just about paralel right now, but if the heels weren't there It would be neg angle.

Just a thought....

Jaye Perry

08-06-2007, 03:36 PM

Brian Purrington- this may sound ignorant, but looking at the rads, I see a foot with a ton of heel,No you don't, you see an eclipse of the solar portion of P3, the wings of P3 are right there_ right there on the ground, take a knife to those quarters and he will bleed, take a pair of hoof testers and he will "Tee Tee" on himself. The sole depth you see is only in the toe. No ignorant question just uninformed.

weak digital cushion and a bullnosed profile on the dorsal aspect of P3. Is this considered a negative palmer angle whithin the hoof capsule? Yep

I know in relation to the ground P3 is just about paralel right now, but if the heels weren't there It would be neg angle.You are enamoured with the foot, look up the leg. Poor bastord's ankles are on fire- look at the lateral bruising in the quarters in both foot pics- you need to quit looking at just feet and justify some bio-mechanics in your replies- cause and effect.

If ya want to look at the feet/rads in LF- do you think horses bones have stringy calcification's hanging off distal caudal portions of P2- proximal portion of the navic, fussy pal-mar processes of P3, channeling in the dorsoventral rads; Look for cause and effect.

Just a thought...Please give it a bit more consideration before you respond.

Brian Purrington

08-06-2007, 06:11 PM

I stand corrected... Back to square one.... :o

Jaye Perry

08-06-2007, 06:40 PM

Brian Purrington-I stand corrected... Back to square one.... :o

No, you see what you are focused on- read throughly about the blocks- read throughly about what has been applied- read what the rads are telling ya- look, diseminate and then react/retort.;)

Brian Purrington

08-06-2007, 07:35 PM

MonBeauCheval,

Could you post some pics showing the horse in full, front, back and side views?

Regards,

Appassionato

08-06-2007, 07:50 PM

If it is in fact pedal ostietis, the pour in's would contribute to lameness (IMO)
Maybe the application of the pour in is key here? My horse has a pretty messed up case of both pedal osteitis as well as sinking founder (mechanical in nature), and pour ins is what he's back in after *I* messed up and tried to let the horse go barefoot. "Well, he went great for two weeks..." was basically how the phone call went...LOL! ;) Oh, and this horse is known by everyone who has dealt/deals with him, NO sole pressure!!! The horse will tear down brick walls to get away from you, drugged or not. :rolleyes: But the Equipak CS, oh he's in Heaven almost immediately. It cushions and supports rather than presses and hurts. Again, it probably has to do with the application.

Edited to add for the OP, my horse was "diagnosed" as navicular since he was...8? 9? He's 23 now, so I sometimes have a hard time remembering. :D Anyway, I was told to shoe him as a horse with navicular, even though no problems were found other than soreness in the rear part of his front hooves.

Phil Armitage

08-06-2007, 07:51 PM

When you see what appears like the hoof is penetrateing the block, then you know the X-ray machine is not straight on. This is going to cause a lot of diffuclty in determineing sole depth. P3 and the hoof have optical illusions.

Looks to me the foot is on a high block and the machine is pointing upward.

MonBeauCheval

08-06-2007, 09:48 PM

The x-rays were also taken 4 weeks after farrier 3 shod him (eggbars). This is what the vet said:severe navicular syndrome bilaterally: numerous enlarged/lytic areas within the navicular bones, lucency at the flexor surface of the navicular bone. Slight degenerative changes on both front coffin joints, she pointed it out on the front proximal portion (not on Jaye's diagram). Thin soles, overgrown heels, and a broken back angle on the LF.

Jaye- Yes he's had puffiness in his fetlocks since he started being lame again. Never had that problem before, even when he was stalled due to bad weather. Could you elaborate more on the causes and effects of the bruising? It wasn't always there, just mostly in the pics with the eggbars when he got a corn, which I think was from snow pads being applied incorrectly. And he also never has reacted to hoof testers excepting when he had a corn. But he is so stoic and obviously his heels do hurt.

Brian- I'll get some good confo shots tomorrow hopefully. It's just kinda hard to get good shots because the only level ground is concrete, which really aggravates the shivers.

He interferes in front too,but never higher than the coronary band. He brings the right front to the midline. He straightens out once he builds muscle and gets off the forehand so I'm not too concerned. I'm more concerned about someone trying to over correct him. He's back to where he was two weeks ago, I was hoping it's just stiffness from being in the trailer 6 hours and getting no turnout that day, and then it rained the other day so he was in. But that was 4 days ago he got reshod and he should be better by now. Last time it took two weeks to see an improvement. It wasn't huge, but other people noticed too, when normally if he's slightly off I have people telling me he looks good, drives me crazy. He's still about grade 3. He also put himself out of wack more; he keeps drifting off to the right, and he was already majorly out of alignment because of the shivers. So that could be part of it also. Hopefully the chiro will be out tomorrow.

Brian Purrington

08-06-2007, 10:02 PM

This is what prompted me to ask for confomation shots.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t59/wellshodhorses/getit/Getit.jpg

Do what you can....

Regards,

Appassionato

08-06-2007, 11:27 PM

From an old eventer's standpoint, look at where the left rear is...and his right hind is missing. Now, I'm not one to knock a farrier's perspective...just illustrating why *I* don't take this to be a great shot to judge confo by. To *me*, he's somewhat toe'd out in the front. That's only judging by what I've seen in the past when I evented, dressaged, jumpers, and foxhunted. Don't ask me about the back, the hinds weren't a problem until studs with my own "big" horse in 3-day! :rolleyes:

In any case, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to discuss hoof/leg abnormalities with farriers. ;) You guys have hooves down to a science. I've enjoyed learning from you guys. :D

Brian Purrington

08-07-2007, 06:25 AM

Appassionato

08-07-2007, 09:48 AM

I requested the conformation shots so I could get a look at what is really going on. This pic just got me curious...... Not saying I see anything yet.

And you are right, the pic is taken from an angle... I saw that too, still something looks wrong.
I didn't word the last post very well, did I? In my attempts at learning more about hooves by finally looking at the legs they are attached to...I can fell over myself there huh? My apologies! Been at the grind lately, and yesterday was a deusie! :o

More or less I was just discussing out loud what I saw/see which seems to be kind of common. I rarely ever saw a horse with toes that pointed perfectly forward. The few horses I can remember that had toes that were pointed perfectly forward usually had something going on in their knees. Not trying to detract from the OP's thread intentions at all, trying to learn myself and hopefully the OP is getting something out of all this! ;)