Opinions Please

[skidboot]

http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x23/yborch/

This is my horse. My wife rode on two nice trail rides this spring with no lameness before, during or just after. Have had off and on lameness issues in the past mostly just in the spring but nothing that continued on. This time it did so we had a vet out for x-rays.

Vet said Angel has significant changes in her navicular bones, which, in combination with her lameness, is suggestive of advanced navicular disease.

Wedge 2 degree and cut heals way down as vet said to do. Kerkhart wide web shoe. Left out heel nails. Which as pictures show vet said exactly what they wanted to see.

Horse is not heel sore with hoof tester. Vet and myself cannot get her to flinch.

Legend and joint injections. Legend helped some. Did not respond to joint injections.

Slight limp but does not head bob or have high stiff neck and head when trotting in sand.

Does not point when standing.

After standing at night she walks off with a limp than moves normally on her own.

We are extremely dry here and hoofs are dry. No rain in sight.

I am looking to get some help in this matter and ask what you see and what you would do.

About 5 years ago joint injections were done and worked. Also, about 2 years ago x-rays were done and no navicular change was seen than.

Any and all help is much appreciated.

[seminolewind]

""Wedge 2 degree and cut heals way down as vet said to do. Kerkhart wide web shoe. Left out heel nails. Which as pictures show vet said exactly what they wanted to see""
I thought the idea of wedge pads for navicular was to RAISE the angle, not cut the heels down. If you don't have pads on, I would add them too for comfort, like a sneaker.
She seems to stand underneath herself front and back. But I guess you will hear about that from others.
Karen

[calshoer]

The idea of trimming the heels then wedging is to lengthen and move the base of support in the foot itself BACK further. Then wedge if needed to align the bones.
I would like to see some "after" Xrays of the shoeing to evaluate several things: hoof balance in all aspects,medial latral and coffin joint alignment . I am guessing rom whatlittle Ian see in the pics that the breakover point of the shoe (the back of the clip) is at least an inch ahead of the tip of the coffin bone. It should be under it or no firther than 1/4" ahead the tip of the bone. Or even under the center of the foot as in a 'banana' shoe)
This is to to relieve some stresses on the deep flexor tendon and impar ligament where they attach under the navicular bone.

And, if the horse is landing toe first at a walk, he needs more wedge,enough to get him to land slightly heel first.

As well as the breakover point of the foot needing to be moved back, the heels appear to need MORE trimming, and then more wedge may be needed.Also use something wth rolled SIDES, or wedge rails instead of a wedge pad . This is to help the foot breakover esily in ANY direction, including the sides. Breakover, toe AND all around the foot is a VERY Important part of successful navicular treatment. its not all about angles it is a LOTabout easing steesses on all the connecting structures around the bone. A flat shoe, even with a wedge pad, is not going to get it done.
Patty

[e decker]

With advance apology, as this is a question to you....

Are you the gentleman that trained that wonderful dog "Skidboot"?

I know his trainer was also a farrier.

Thanks,

Elizabeth

P.S.

Second what Patty said.

It looks like there may be some damage to the navicular bone to so possible adding some sort of "shock absorption" could help too as to relive some vibration.

[skidboot]

No - not the Skidboot trainer. We have seen those two at a rodeo and really enjoyed the show.

Does anyone have any experience with B-L Solution. A natural alternative to bute?

Thanks for the help. I would like to see if we could bring this horse around.

[jamesrooney]

For openers I don't see any clear evidence of damage to the the Rf or Lf navic ulars. Since I am a vet I don't hesitate to say yet again that many of my kin cannot diagnose navicular disease and even more of them don't even know what it is. (Same for most farriers!)

[skidboot]

Well - here are the clinical findings written in a letter to us -
Angel walked sound, but is grade 3 out of 5 lame on the left forelimb at a trot in a straight line (on hard ground). She was grade 2/5 lame in soft footing going in a circle to the left on the left forelimb, and sound in soft footing going in a circle to the right. She was negative to flexion tests.
Palmar digital nerve block LF: Grade 1/5 lame RF going in a circle to the right in soft ground.

Radiographs taken of L/RF feet:
LF foot- Palmar 45˚ proximal-palmarodistal oblique view showed increased cortical thickness of the flexor surface of the navicular bone. Dorsoproximal-palmarodistal oblique view showed multiple enlarged cyst-like lesions in the medulla of the navicular bone.
RF foot- Dorsoproximal-palmarodistal oblique view showed a large cyst-like lesion in the medulla of the navicular bone with multiple lesser enlarged cyst-like lesions.

Angel has significant changes in her navicular bones, which, in combination with her lameness, is suggestive of advanced navicular disease.

Vet - I think the feet look great. You did well getting the toe shortened, and
the heel taken down. That is exactly what she needs.

[J.H. shoeing]

the Good Doctor has spoken.

What about the fussiness on P-3?

What do you think Dr. Rooney?

Jaye?

[Andrew Grimm]

[QUOTE=skidboot
About 5 years ago joint injections were done and worked.

What joint/joints were injected? how long between injections?

[Phil Armitage]

Nice sharp x-rays, but.......... Looks like they are not taken straight on, angled down on the lateral views.

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage-Nice sharp x-rays, but.......... Looks like they are not taken straight on, angled down on the lateral views.


just glanced at rads, I put a crayon to a few areas
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/RFNavicular.jpg?t=1185529811

[Jaye Perry]

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/RFLateral.jpg

lateral areas

[Jaye Perry]

a/p areas of interests-
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/RFP3AP.jpg?t=1185530221

[Jaye Perry]

navics don't bother me:)

[skidboot]

December of 2002 - X-rays were taken and nothing found. Vet thought it would not hurt to inject left coffin joint. So only that joint was injected.

The vet that just injected her coffin joints this month- she did both left and right made a comment that it was really dry.

Our normal vet that we use did feel that she had problems in the pastern joint. They do not have x-ray machines or will not do joint injections. So we had to get another vet to do these things.

I would also be interested to hear what you guys are suggesting could be done to help this mare. She is 11 years old.

Appreciate your help. Thanks.

[jamesrooney]

the Good Doctor has spoken.

What about the fussiness on P-3?

What do you think Dr. Rooney?

Jaye?
I don't find the reproduction clear enough to say anything about the fuzziness (sic) of P3. It doesn't take much dirt, oil, etc. to muddy up P3 radiographs.
Rooney

[Derin Foor]

Our normal vet that we use did feel that she had problems in the pastern joint. They do not have x-ray machines or will not do joint injections. So we had to get another vet to do these things.


This speaks volumes and now the previous posts start to make 'sense'.

How can an equine vet in the year 2007 NOT have simple diagnosic equipment such as radiograph equipment. Furthermore, how can they make a decisive diagnosis without such equipment ? :rolleyes:

...... and folks wonder why the farriers feel frustrated when this is what we deal with :cool:

Derin

[skidboot]

We have to use what is in the area that is what we have. That is why I am on the internet looking for some help.

[Phil Armitage]

We have to use what is in the area that is what we have. That is why I am on the internet looking for some help.

Did your original Vet look at these X-rays? He/she may not have the equipment, but it sounds like he could combine his hunch with more info from the x-rays.

[Jaye Perry]

-jamesrooney-..... It doesn't take much dirt, oil, etc. to muddy up P3 radiographs.Here is a rad that shows some "Black Gritty Exudate" in a hoof wall separation case. IMO this was caused by a "pinched nail" in the lateral toe quarter that smoldered and finally went necrotic. The "Grit" shows up nice, white and snowy looking in the rad.
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/?action=view&current=2D890001.original.jpg

[skidboot]

I am not sure if the results were passed on to our vet or not. I will be checking on that today. If not, will be forwarding on.

Rolled the toes on the shoe. Have seen improvement in walking and trotting in sand. But afterwards stands in the deeper sand and seems uncomfortable. As recommended giving 5 - 10 minutes exercise a day and that is about all she can handle. She is not stalled rested and is able to roam about in the pasture, sure wouldn't know anything is wrong with her. Going straight no problems.

Would anybody be able to elaborate on any of this? - Giving bute daily now and that has not made any difference. We are no better off than we were before we had the vet out.