Sepedonium spp found in the hoof

[DeAnna62]

Hi,
I Have a 15 year old Ouarter Horse that was having some kind of hoof fungi/yeast problem so we sent off hoof trimming, hair Etc. It came back with an Off the wall Culture of Sepedonium spp in the hoof and saprophytic fungi observed in the hair. :eek: I was wondering if any of you have ever heard of these thing being found in the hoof before? :confused: If so could you give me some info on how to treat it? :)
Thanks for the help!! ;)

[caballus]

Hi DeAnna ... both the sepedonium and the sapophytic are fungii. They are found commonly around barns and farms and stables. The healthy animal would not have issues with it for the most part. Sounds like the integrity of the hooves are compromised in some manner and therefore allowed the fungii to "take root" in your horse's hair (sapophytic found in keritanized tissue such as hair, hoof, nails, etc.) and the hoof (sepedonium found in the grasses and other plants and crops on farms).

What *I* would do if this were my horse would be to first address whatever mechanical issues the hooves are having ie: proper mechanism and function from trim. While this is going on (get a good, balanced and natural trim)
I would soak the hooves in Borax solution (you can find info on this at www.barefoothorse.com under the "Other" section) -- when soaking, I'd make sure that the hoof and leg up to mid-cannon bone were covered in the soak. After drying the hoof and leg off I would spray the leg w/ Australian Tea Tree Oil/H20 mix and then would spray the heel/hoof thoroughly with it. No wrapping or other is necessary. Just spray with the TTO and leave it be.

While caring for the hooves specifically I'd also address this systemically. For whatever reason besides mechanical hoof failure, the horse's system has allowed this yeast to take residence in its body. Find a Homeopath Vet who can help you to discern what would best get the BODY into balance so it can fight off this intrusion. Some Echinacea and Vitamin C will help strengthen the immune system. You can find both at www.herbnhorse.com inexpensively. I would also address the diet and get rid of any concentrated sugars in the diet i.e. Sweet feed or commercial feed with high carb/sugar. Sugar feeds yeast infections and fungii and gradually switch over to a whole grain or mixture of whole grains ie oats, corn and barley. Add a good vitamin supplement to this basic diet of whole grain and free-choice low grade grass hay. BTW -- if you've been treating any Thrush then yeast will thrive off dead thrush. I'd also get some "Ration Plus" - a Prebiotic that initiates the horse's gut to grow its own bacteria and enzymes necessary to completely break down its feed. A Probiotic simply loads the gut with live bacteria - goes in one end and what's not needed goes out the other. The Prebiotic are lyced cells that multiply and grow as needed. One bottle lasts for about a month or so and that is all you should hopefully need. Not expensive. Do a search for it online to see where you can order it most easily.

It's nearly impossible to treat the stable grasses and pastures for these fungii without major doings so hopefully, getting your horse to a healthy, balanced body and hoof state will help to deter future issues with this.

Hope this is helpful.

--caballus

[DeAnna62]

Hi caballus,
Thanks for the reply! It is GREATLY appreciated!! :)
I have been fighting WLD on and off most of this horses life using mostly formaldehyde 2 to 3 times a week when it shows up. As for his feeding program he has always been on rolled oats and Alfalfa, because I noticed a long time ago that the starches affected his feet. He is on a double dose of Farriers Secret, the new Red cell with glucostimine in it. We had blood work done to see if we had any imbalances there and everything is very good. If you were to see this horse you would think why is this animal affected, he has the best coat and looks very healthy. All stalls are kept very clean and dry as I show my horses and have to have them in tip top shape. He is turned out for exercise but only if the ground is dry, he is never turned out in the mornings or evenings when the dew is on the ground, I am trying to keep it as dry as possible as I know this is the only way to survive from WLD. We did have to put glue on shoes on him for a while last year but I had to stop using them on him because unless his foot was perfectly fitted with no broken edges the shoes would collect saw dust in them and hold moisture, and that caused his wall around were the tabs were attached to the wet wall to pull the hoof wall away from the WL and I am thinking that this is were this problem got its roots from. We have been fighting this for a few months now and he hasn't the foot to put into perfect balance but we are doing the best with what we have. As of the clinical finding I have started soaking him with Copper Sulfate for 15 minutes 2X a week and spraying it on the other days. This does look like it has done something for him in the short period but I was not sure if this was the right prescription for him on this.... I am thinking that he is in need of an internal product as you said also and I wasn't sure as to were to find it, we don't have any one with that kind of knowledge around her so your advise is well taken to heart on that subject as all of it is! Thanks! ;)
P.S. I have attached a photo of the horses health as of Dec. 2004, he is no longer in shoes as that was tearing the walls up. :D

[DeAnna62]

Hi caballus,
Something just came to my mind. :rolleyes: I started using those stallskins when we built the new place 2 years ago. And I have had more trouble with feet even though I put the barn on a 4 foot rise to keep the footing drier in the stalls when the wet season is here. I was wondering if they might be housing the fungi? :confused: I thought that they would be good for keeping the stalls drier and holding down the bacteria if you were to pour Lysol on them as per the directions. But to my thinking , if you have pores to drain thru and the ground stays damp beneath them then you would be housing a garden of sorts there, wouldn't you??? :eek: What is your thoughts to this theory? :confused:
DeAnna

[caballus]

Mornin' Deanna! Could you possibly post some photos of the hooves? I'd like to take a look at the trim and overall balance, shape, etc. I've had luck with WLD and WLSeparations with a good, correct trims. It's impossible to keep hooves dry up here in New England unless one were to stall a horse 24/7. That, in itself, is detrimental to the hooves as well as the rest of the body and mind. Right now I have 3 clients from the same barn, same former farrier, with WLD, and years-standing toe cracks. Major cracks. I've trimmed there, now, 4 times (meaning 4 months - I trim every month) and ALL but 1 horse is rid of the toe cracks and ALL of them are clear from WLD. They are ridden on rocky, rocky, high-line trails regularly at all gaits with no issues whatsoever. Actually was just there yesterday and all I had to do was take the heels down a bit on one of them and round off the walls a bit. So, WLD can be taken care of but not by stalling. The horses need lots and lots of movement on all terrains to get that blood flow going through the hooves and lower limbs properly. None of these horses, either, are on any special supplements or hoof treatments. Simple grain, turnout in herds and lots and lots of running around.

As for the stall skins, I'm wondering if your horse might be sensitive to the chemicals used not only in the manufacturing of these skins but the coating of them and -- the Lysol? I have 2 horses here who live outdoors all the time but come up sore when it rains and rains. We have an issue with the town running the road run-off right into our property so, unfortunately, it does get into the paddocks. These 2 are sensitive to the garbage in the run-off, it seems. Out of 17 horses, these are the only 2 who react this way. So, it may be a chemical sensitivity of sorts with your guy. Is there ANY way you can simple turn him out with a free-choice shelter for awhile? Let him move around? The Copper Sulfate is good - Copper is sorely needed as in this day and age we fertilize so heavily with Super Phosphates that we've depleted the ground of natural Copper. But, as with anything, you need to be careful to not overdo it, too! I'd stay far away from the Formeld. or anything that will kill live tissue.

Anyway -- some more thoughts. Brainstorming is always a good thing!

*S* --cab

[DeAnna62]

Hi caballus, :D
I will try to take some pictures of his hooves today, if weather permits. As for the WLD in this horses as of right now there is no separations. The vet had me using the formaldehyde to clear up a unknown problem and to keep the WLD from coming back while we found out what we were dealing with. It is hard to explain what is happening but we have no separation going on just the bottom half of the hoof that has been traumatized by the bacteria or Fungi just peels/breaks away. When it breaks/peel or crumbles it leaves a tubular fiber along the WL or just hanging out of the hoof. The hoof has broken up so much in the last month that this horse has no foot to be taking off hoof to balance so we file and shape and balance what we can, before this started he had balanced feet, matching pastern angles, heel balance Etc. As like New England we here in Florida have lots of rain and wet ground, Unlike most Florida horse owners we don't have sand on our property, we have muck land ( Dark black dirt-used in peat for potting soil) that is good for growning and cattle which the latter is what we do, and leaving this horse out in the pasture for a few months did not work, he just got worst with the WLD. By keeping him in the stall and turning him out only on dry days and pasture has pretty much eliminated the WLD until now. I really don't think this started out as WLD this time. His feet were in great shape when we moved in to the new barn, then he started having this reaction or what ever caused him to have this weird coating on the outside of his hooves and things started to crumble from that point on. The vet and Farrier both thought it was an over abundance of yeast in his system and it was being produced on the extremities of the horses hooves. Then they thought that there might be something strange growing in the hoof and that this stuff was a protection barrier for the hoof and that is when we started sending off hoof clipping, hair and blood, and as you know it came back positive for Sepedonium spp in the hooves and Saprophytic Fungi Observed in the hair. This horse was not on any supplement ever before this particular problem but we were losing more foot then growing so this is the regiment that they recommended. I have always felt that if a horse was on good quality hay then all he needs is a good sweet feed of 10% or rolled oats and lots of turnout to stay healthy. Most people I know that show never turn out their horses they just ride them and consider that enough exercise, I never did and still don't believe in that so my horse get turned as much as can be done in a day and get rode too. The rest of the barn has healthy feet, though I have gone thru some bacteria problem in a few of them after we first moved in but that was gotten rid of with gentle iodine, it is just this one horse that has this problem, and he has always been the healthiest and easiest keeper, that is why I find this so aggravating! I do know that he comes from horses know to have thin walls and soles with underslung heel but believe me we honestly got him going with good walls and soles after doing a lot of studying on the relationship to turning out, the right feeding program, Etc. for heathy hooves, I found that with this particular horse that Rolled Oats and Quality Alfalfa with turn out between the dry hours of the day was working for him, we changed nothing when we moved so I am feeling it has to lie with something to the area or his stall flooring. Since we moved to a different location I can not simply say it was the stallskins but yes they are treated with a coating of Chemicals and they are porous and that could be the problem, because in my other barn I had wood floors in those stalls which we put in when he first started having the WLD and that seemed to help him a lot.
I try to keep it dry with fresh bedding changed out once a week for this particular horse. I also believe in over doing the products on the horses and that is why I questioned my vet and farriers tactics with so much formaldehyde and posted on the BB's.
:) I will get the pix ASAP but keep in mind that I have been treating him with the Copper Sulfate soak and spray now for a week and things are looking a little different then they were, it is drying the waxy coating up so you probably won't get the hole picture. I wish I had thought to take pictures before starting the Copper Sulfate...
Thanks ;)

[caballus]

Hmmmmmmmm, after living for a couple of years in SW FL I KNOW how difficult it is to get rich, dark, black *soil* !!! Can you have the soil tested for whatever chemicals might be in that? Also, have you tested the water? Whatever is in the soil will infiltrate into the well unless, of course, you have city water. If the changes came about with the switch to this new barn then its, by common sense, something to do environmentally with the new place. If the only "symptoms" are in his feet, then that is where to start which you've been doing. I would think that if it were a sensitivity to something in the water then his entire body would be evident with some sort of dis-ease. Given that its merely his hooves (he looks fabulous in his photo!!!) then its smart to look directly to something topical on his hooves. My guess, as we've discussed, would be either something in the soil (fertilizers, pesticides?) or something in the stall skins. BUT ... didn't you say you installed the new skins AFTER you had been there for a bit? In that case, by process of elimination sort of, you need to look at the soil. See if you can have it tested up in Gainesville or your local County Extension to see what sort of chemicals are in the soil and what reactions they might cause to a sensitive animal. The fungii are the tough ones. You'd have to treat the entire area IF its localized only to your farm. If not, then its a losing battle with the spore. :(

It will be interesting to follow this and see just what transpires ...

--cab

[DeAnna62]

Hi Cab,
I have uploaded a couple of pictures on this post and I will see if I can post another with a few more of them.
As for the stallskins they were put in right after we moved in give or take a few weeks. At lease 2 were, and his was one of them. We test ran them, liked how they were working and put in 3 more. They have been in for 2 years Nov. 2004. I ended up pulling one out because it did not have the treatment the others had and it was staying wet etc. So I put down a very good rubber matt in that stall. When I pulled that one up the shell that was under it was very damp and the stallskins underside was soaked. I don't know it you have ever seen or used them but they are treated only on one side and the other-side is like a tough felt pad so it is capable of absorbing wet from the ground especially when the water level is high. This is my main reasoning for thinking it is the culprit for starting the problem! I think that I have been treating it with the wrong solution for so long that the bacteria/fungi has been feeding off of the decay and thus you have a never ending cycle. We, my vet and Farrier, were treating it like a thrush, WLD problem and by what I have been reading this Fungi feeds off of the dying debris that those product produce when they kill that bacteria. Of course I am just grabbing at straws here...... :confused:
Pix1 side view of right Hind
Pix4 Left hind showing how wall breaks away.
Pix7 Right hind showing how it peels away form WL
Pix8 Underside of hind foot
Pix3 showing The coat of dried waxy stuff that is/was growing and the tubular hairs. It is no longer waxy looking since I started using the Copper Sulfate on it. When the foot was moist it looked rubbery or waxy.

Take a look at the photos and see what you think, as always your help is greatly appreciated!!! ;)

[DeAnna62]

Hi Cab,
Here is the other set of photos. As you can tell it is not in just the front feet the hind are also in involved. I am contacting a herb specialist that can help me with a feed thru to combat any yeast that is forming in his system and I am going to give the Borax Solution a shot also, it may be just the thing to combat it with, that will not destroy the live tissue.
Pix9 is his left hind.
Pix5 is his Left front.
Pix6 is his right front - we could not take any more off of his right side of his toe because it was to soft.
Pix2 is a rasped off spot of coating on his foot.
Pix11 is all the coating rasped off to show what is under it.
I'll be waiting to see what your thoughts are.... :)
Thanks!

[caballus]

I think that I have been treating it with the wrong solution for so long that the bacteria/fungi has been feeding off of the decay and thus you have a never ending cycle. We, my vet and Farrier, were treating it like a thrush, WLD problem and by what I have been reading this Fungi feeds off of the dying debris that those product produce when they kill that bacteria. Of course I am just grabbing at straws here......

Yep, absolutely. Yeast feeds and thrives on dead bacteria ie. thrush as well as feeds and thrives on sugars (sugardine - a popular mixture to be rid of thrush) ...

I am glad you're trying out the Borax and contacting an Herbal Specialist. Please be sure the specialist is Certified. Also, plain oats - NO SUGAR!!-- for grain.

I can see that you must be VERY frustrated and even scared. Those hooves look pretty nasty. There *is* room for a good trimming and balance, though. The toes and heels look long even from the frontal shots that I saw. Not long for shoeing but long for a "natural" hoof ...

Keep us posted. Will you be having your soil and mats tested for whatever chemical toxins there might be there?

--caballus

[caballus]

OH! Forgot to add -- the fiber you are seeing is dead laminae. That tells me that there is white line separation and it's allowing whatever the culprit is to get up inside the hoof. A proper trim that will help to tighten up the white line and the toe/wall/sole junctures will help.

--cab

[DeAnna62]

Good Afternoon Cab,
Yes, this is SOOO frustrating especially since this horse is my favorite one. I have had him for 14 years and he has carried me to 3 year in a row of Futurity Championships and 13 years of weekend showing, with no complains, injury or sore hocks!!! Just hoof problem on and off but never anything like this, and I feel for him because he is one of those horse that will give you all and more and you will never know just how much pain he is in with his feet, that is why if he is walking around tender footed we had better not take him down any more because if you do he will be lame totally... We have been thru a lot with thin soles & walls, To shoe him you had to bevel the shoe on the inside were it laid against the foot to make sure the sole was not close to the shoe (no sole pressure) or he would be sore and the only way you knew he was, was if he was quick footed when moving, we had him were he was doing good with his soles and walls, you could shoe him in a normal way until this hit.
I would agree with you about taking a little more foot down on him but with his background I am staying on the safe side, unless it comes to having to do it, at lease he can still be turned out and move around good enough for circulation, if we did take him down more he would definitely not want to move around and I feel that might be a bad move on our part as circulation in the foot is very much needed to the hooves to promote growth and we are needing that especially now with the cold weather he has slowed down in the growth departement. Does that sound right?? I don't want to take the wrong road again when I think we are back on the right one now... At lease I sure hope so!!!! :)

I am sure his diet isn't the problem because he is on and has been all his life steamed rolled oats and a very good alfalfa hay, our water supply was tested when we moved in and it was fine, as it is also our water supply to the house. The ground could be at fault as this ground was planted for a food crop and pesticide could still be lingering though I don't think so because it has not been used for nothing for the last 10 years, it has just been sitting with a few cow on it before we bought it. BUT I will have it tested! We just limed the hole place last week so that should help some.

If you have any more info please feel free to contact me with it, as always it is very Appreciated!!!

I have a few more pictures I am posting of the hooves after the trim yesterday.
Pix12 is the back feet after trimming them up some.
Pix15 is the same back feet from behind before the trim.
Pix14 is of his right front side view
Pix16 is of his right hind that we took and file of the outside wall and the same foot that showed the fiber tubes.
Pix17 is of his front right before trimming to show how their is a seperation but it just peels/pulls a way around the WL leaving it exposed to the elements and etc. I am thinking that with the formaldahyde that was being used was causing the line to dry out and when he walled on it that was causing it to tear up.

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=Also, plain oats - NO SUGAR!!-- for grain.

--caballus[/QUOTE]

Oats are a cereal grain and as such a carbohydrate source. Carbohydrates are broken down into sugar.

This horse needs protein, not sugar sources(ie: cereal grains)

It looks to me like those feet need more trimming and balancing and any suspect areas much be completely investigated and debrided.

rick

[caballus]

While I agree with you, Rick, on the balancing, trimming and debriding I disagree about the oats. Oats, out of all the cereal grains, has 90% starch digestibility while corn and barley only range around 30 - 35%. Yes, the starch turns into sugar however, when an appropriate amount of WHOLE oats (to benefit the horse with the fats, fiber and the high prececal digestibility, the oats need to have intact husks) the oats are almost fully digested in the small intestine therefore avoiding the transfer of undigested starch to the large intestine where it sets up all sorts of digestive and enzymatic issues.

As for protein ... what would you recommend for a source of protein and at what % ??

--cab

[Dave Purves]

I personally see a feet here that are completely contracted. They are way to long and not nearly as wide as they should be. I see alot of this in horses that are stalled alot, and always in clean dry bedding. A little moisture is a good thing. Not to mention exercise. Nothing will heal a foot like bloodflow, and the only way to get good bloodflow into the foot is to let the horse run around. I know it's hard to keep their coat shiney and short, and we don't want them to get hurt but in my opinion this horse need to be turned out more. As far as fungus goes the best thing to kill fungus is fresh air and sunlight. The toes are soo long and there seems to be some bulging in the dorsal hoofwall I would get some x-rays taken and make sure he does not have a negative palmar angle coffin bone. And Cab, the toes are too long for shoes also. You need to promote bloodflow. Let this horse go out alot. Not just for an hour here or there, turn him out in the morning and leave him out at night, do this for a few months and you'll be surprised. Give him a good balanced trim, continue to treat the fungus with whatever you think works. Get him out of his clean dry stall though, cause that is causing his feet to contract. I bet his soles are hard as a rock. There is very little bloodflow in his feet.
jmo
Dave Purves CF

[Rick Burten]

While I agree with you, Rick, on the balancing, trimming and debriding I disagree about the oats. Oats, out of all the cereal grains, has 90% starch digestibility while corn and barley only range around 30 - 35%. Yes, the starch turns into sugar however, when an appropriate amount of WHOLE oats (to benefit the horse with the fats, fiber and the high prececal digestibility, the oats need to have intact husks) the oats are almost fully digested in the small intestine therefore avoiding the transfer of undigested starch to the large intestine where it sets up all sorts of digestive and enzymatic issues.

As for protein ... what would you recommend for a source of protein and at what % ??

--cab


Even though the oats may be digested in the small intestine, there is still the conversion to sugar and its subsequent absorption and use by the system.

And since the horse was never designed to eat grain in the first place, it really doesn't matter to the system, where the sugars come from, only that they are present.

Alternate sources of protein include Linseed, Soy, Bran. A mature horse needs about 10% protein for growth, maintenence and repair, and may need more if its systems have been compromised as in the case of laminitis, founder, Cushings, or IR. (as a side note, there is very good information available on diet, etc especially with regard to Cushings or IR at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings).

I should also add to my comments that alfalfa hay is contraindicated, and carrots, apples, etc should also be eliminated from the feeding (or treat) program.

Grass hay should be tested for sugar contents, and different grass hays will have varying amounts of sugar present depending on species and time of year harvested.

Yard clippings should never be given to horses.

Beet pulp can add a lot of fibre to the diet, but it too must be freed of its sugar content. This can be accomplished by soaking.

All that aside, I find that removing all grain from the diet, properly trimming and balancing and shoeing(as needed), along with debridement and treatment with either light and air (in a dry environment) or Clean-trax or White Lightening, does a fine job of remediating the problem. I tend to take an aggressive approach to dealing with WLD because it has been my experience that every time I don't, the situation worsens and I have to do what I should have done in the first place.

I also do not believe, nor have I ever been shown, that an advanced case of WLD will remediate on its own if only 'correct trimming' (whatever that means) is employed as the remedy.

Rick

[DeAnna62]

Hi Dave,
Yes this horses hooves are a mess and believe me I do under stand were your coming from and I am not the usual show horse person who believes that the only time out should be under saddle, I also believe in good turn out time and all my horses get turned out a lot of hrs a day even if they are getting fitted up for show or sale, that keeps them happy horses, if they are not they are stabled out side in pastures, but this particular horse is not capable of staying out all the time - yet :( When we Did turn him out all day and night his WLD got worse and out of control, the wet damp ground caused all this to manifest in the first place so it is reason to believe that dry stall time is needed. We live in FL and do not own the usual high sandy ground, we have muck land which is in the low land areas. It's a very rich dirt for grazing cattle (as cattle is what we do for a living) but it has its down falls and that is that it holds a lot of moisture, so unless we have a really dry season it holds to much moisture to turn a problem horse out in unless it is during the day after the dew is gone and before it sets back at dark. I am not saying that this horse doesn't need more turn out time but that has never worked for him as it has for the others. I guess the outer looking waxy coating/fungi was there but I was able to keep it in check until I moved him into the new barn were the ground is drier but the same kind of soil, and Simi-retired this horse for the last two years and started turning him out like he needed to be about the middle of 2004, which in turn caused him to get so bad, of course We were treating it wrong also, treating it as you would thrush, WLD, etc. - with formaldehyde which was both the vets and Farriers remedy - they though I need a more aggressive approach then I was doing - This was giving the fungi a breeding ground to grow because it feed off of the decay of the dying tissue. We are treating him right now with Copper Sulfate soaks and that has dried that waxy coating that was taking over the out side of the hoof that you saw in the photos, Now it looks like dried up tree bark so I do understand your comments, We are going to try the Borax soaks as of today and hopefully it will not be so harsh a treatment and he will be able to spend more and more time out when we get this fungi under control and his feet back in balance, which he is sorely in need of, we all agree there..... Just with his history we did not want to make him any more sore then we have to. We are going to try to balance him up this week and see where that takes us.
We did x-rays on this horse just a few months ago and everything was good. Also this horse has a history of thin soled tender feet if you took him down to short he would walk off lame.

I went out and measured His toe lengths and it is - LF 3 1/2", RF 3 1/4", LH 3" RH Just a hair off of 3".

What would you say is a correct length for a big 16.1 hand horse? Anything under 3" lamed him and 3" in the front made him sore when his feet were in good shape, meaning no WLD.
Thanks,
DeAnna :)

[Dave Purves]

I really wish I could see this horse in person. The first thing that jumps out at me is the difference in toe lengths from left front to right front. Do you know why the RF is a 1/4 inch shorter than the left? This is an indication that something is not right. If the x-rays are clean, then I wonder about the conformation of the legs, or the farrier care. How often do you have him trimmed? Just a rough guess on toe length would be somewhere between 3 1/4 and 3 3/8. But every horse is different, and you have to do what is comfortable for the horse. If you can't turn the horse out then I would try longing or something, this guy needs to be moving around. If you have an arena or somewhere that is rather dry maybe you could turn him out there. There are all types of ways to deal with WLD, hoof resections, borax all kinds of stuff, you have to make sure that the infected area stays open, and get the blood pumping into the foot. Good luck, I'm sure everything will turn out fine for you.
Dave Purves CF

[caballus]

Yep, oats still convert to sugar but if fed whole, the husk forms a mucilagenous type covering which slows down the digestion and therefore allows the body to do the sugar conversion more slowly thus avoiding the rapid up and down of the glucose levels that causes alot of the issues with sugars.

Horses do eat grains but limited amounts. Rarely are the wild grasses left to form flower heads and subsequently, seeds. They are grazed down too quickly. Apples and carrots are both loaded with sugar - carrots having more sugars than apples, actually. Alfalfa is high in protein - 23% and very rich. No, it should not be given as a regular hay source and yes, may absolutely be too rich for the laminitic horse. But then, the sugars involved, as you say, need to be established even in grass hay. With the alternating cold and wet of New England this year the hays have been found high in Fructans ... fructans are indigestible by the horse. However, to test every bale for every feeding can be a bit much, Rick. I've wanted to test but I feed out from 200 to 250 bales a month. Couldn't possibly test each one nor could I afford to do so.

Some Beet Pulp does have molasses added to it but I was of the teaching that Beet Pulp, in itself, has no sugar as it is the residue that is left after the sugar beets are processed. No sugars and little carbs; all fiber.

As for WLD being taken care of with "correct" trimming ... and what IS correct trimming, Rick? You and I know it but we sorely lack people around these parts (from what I've seen over years and years of New England) who actually know what a "correct" trim is. Correct from *my* stance meaning the base guidelines are to have passive frog contact with heels that are low enough to allow this (approx. 1/8" above live sole at the seat of corn); round front hooves with 2/3rds of the weight bearing surface behind the apex of the frog; a hairline that is clean and straight at a 30 - 33* angle from the horizontal ground plane; angles of the toes to continue in a straight line from the angle of the periople with no flares at all; soles that are concave in accordance to the horse's individual hooves; a nice, strong and thick sole callous with a slight rocker at the toes/toe callous; no white line separations; bars that are neat, straight and taper gently down from the heel to mid-point of the frog length; no broken axis - straight line from the P1 down through the toe; weight bearing center to be central in the sole of the hoof and within a straight line from shoulder down when viewing the hoof laterally ... what else? What have I missed? I just posted some photos of wonderful, WHITE hooves of a little Arabian gelding on barefoottrim.com under the "Natural Trim" section. I have others that are just about near perfect and photos are also posted on that site.

I know YOU know what a correct trim is, Rick, and you're merely crankin' my toes here. Unfortunately, not everyone is educated to this. This is one reason why I answer things in such depth because I know that it will help *someone* - some owner, some farrier, some whatever, who might pick up something new that will help them restore health to some horses' hooves somewhere along the line.

As for protein -- a mare's milk is 12% protein and that is pretty much the max for horses. Growing critters and lactating or pregnant critters may need a bit more for awhile. But, for the healthy performance horse or the maintenance horse, I don't feel the protein level should be any higher than what a mare's milk offers at 12%.

One more thing -- I agree with the no grain at all, Rick, IF the horse is getting all that it needs from hay, vitamins, mineral and salt. :)

Good discussion, Rick. Thanks!

*S* --cab

[DeAnna62]

Hi Again,
I do know why his toe lengths are different and it is because they have broken off leaving different lengths and the foot that is shorter is sore so we figured that the other didn't need to be taken down at the same length and sore that one up also, let the other grow a little and next time we will catch it then. We trim him every 4 to 6 weeks depending on the growth of his feet at that point of time, he has broken off a lot in the last two months and I think it is due to the dried up walls that have weekend from the treatment and fungi. Though in the last week he has had very little chipping off. It is time to do him next week and he hasn't been done for almost 6 weeks this time. Also he has been getting out longer days now morning till late afternoon as long as it isn't raining, though we wait till the dew dries up then out he goes. Now that we started the Copper Sulfate soaks, they seemed to have dried the outer coating up so that the moister doesn't seem to let the fungi get control. He has always been turned out about 4-5 hrs a day unless we were wet, plus undersaddle time. As you know we had the hurricanes hit us and we definitely were wet so those moths he had very little time to no time out. So we actually haven't had the best luck with last years weather.... This is definitely not a quiet horse in the pasture he like to run and play with the other horses so he does get the blood circulating when he is out, he loves his play time even if he is sore he will play with the little guys. That is also why I don't want to sore him up any more then we have to, I don't want to slow him down to a stand still......
Again I Appreciate all that is being offered here on BB's!!!
DeAnna ;)

[DeAnna62]

Hi Guys,
It isn't pacifically the carbohydrates that are the problem but the Carbohydrates that produces starches that are found in the grains, which is alien to the nutritional heritage of the horse. As hindgut fermenters, horses have an opportunity for small intestinal metabolism of simple sugars to glucose, which is more metabolically efficient than fermentation to volatile fatty acids
From the perspective of plant physiology, carbohydrates may be divided into three groups: simple sugars, storage molecules (e.g., starch, fructans), and structural polysaccharides. From the standpoint of equine digestive physiology, carbohydrates may be divided into two major groups: those hydrolyzed to simple sugars in the small intestine, and those that undergo bacterial fermentation to volatile fatty acids in the hindgut. The primary difference in these groups is the linkage of the sugar molecules of the carbohydrate.

You can find more on carbohydrates and Starch Metabolic break downs :
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Ralston/hoffman/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1

Even with all this said I have found that with feeding my horses the way we do We have less colic and founders then any one else in my town. I give, we are a small town but still, the only colic we have had has been to many year a go to count and we have had only one founder ever, that was a horse that was turned out with the cattle and while we were working the cattle in the pens the horse found a bag of corn in the back of a truck that belonged to hired help for the day. And though the oats is being fed to the problem horse the rest of my barn is on Sweet Ten a 10% Sweet feed from Manna Pro and Alfalfa or T&A hay with several hrs a day on good Bahia pasture. I have 15 head and All but 3 of these horses have been bred and raised here, and they don't have the problem feet that has been going on with the one horse. The Babies are left on there mother till they are 5-6 months then weaned and kept in pasture with alfalfa hay and a 10% feed till they are long yearling then they are brought in for training or to be fitted up to sale, never changing their diet. We don't have problems with crooked leg or a lack in growth, my farm even has a nick name - The land of the Giants - My mares are not big horses 15.1 - 15.2, though I did have a 16.3 h TB mare and her 4 year old this year is almost 17 hands, The babies from these mare are always in the 40" to 46" range, averaging 44" when born, the 40" being the TB mares foal. They have matured to 16.1 - 16.3 by a Sire that was 16 hands. They ALL have been on the same feeding program with no stunted growth. We have been doing this same routine for 12+ years and have been in the horses 26+ years, and have not changed because I never had a cause to. Until this horse Tuffy but we all know that is another story.......

Goes to show not all that is in blk & wht is the golden rule!

Thanks Guys I have enjoyed the info, ;)
DeAnna

[Bill Slaughter]

Is this horse on saw dust? and if so is it cypress? I have seen alot of Horses in Florida do this if standing on cypress saw dust or a mix of cypress and pine.

[DeAnna62]

Hi Bill,
No he isn't on Cypress. In fact we had changed to this and that to see if the sawdust was a factor and so far no changes. We tried woodypet most of last year, shavings and then came back to our favorite pine saw dust. Our supplier garentees that it is nothing but pine.
I wish it were that easy, to change out the bedding but it is never is.
Thanks,
DeAnna ;)