More newbie Q's

[xoethecat]

These are more normal questions this time!

These are about my mom's horse's feet. My own horse has easy to understand feet. My mom's horse is a bit goofy overall.

1) The seats of corn seem always to be shallower (more built up from the point of view of the bottom of the coffin bone) than the area between the bars and the quarters leading up to them and since due to current climate (freeze/thaw/mud) there is very little in the way of dead sole if any I was wondering if this is because the bottom of the coffin bone does indeed come closer to the ground at that point or just because it is more of a calloused area it doesn't exfoliate as fast. It is hard to tell if there is any dead sole in there at all - I clean out some of the raggedy dirty white line that's in there but don't take much of the sole part out since the contrast is hard to determine. Should I clean it out closer to the level of the quarters or just risk leaving the heels a little high?

2) Also, on that same horse, if you drew a line between the frontmost part of a bar to a "pillar" (toe/quarter meeting point) on the same side of the hoof, there is a patchy circular area of sole on that line's midpoint about the size of a quarter (the coin) that appears to be live although it is a bit higher on the sole than the rest of the sole and happens on all four feet in the same places on each hoof. It isn't the moonsickle, it's deeper in than that really, and the moonsickle is also there just more forward. I was wondering what anyone thought about it. My other horse who is perfect doesn't have it, so I am wondering about it.

The only other odd thing about this horse is that his frogs used to be pulled forward of thier apex and are pretty large for the size of his feet, although since I trimmed him for the first time a month ago the point of the frog flapped off on all four feet (I didn't want to trim it off before in case he needed it). He's also cowhocked and slightly toed out in front although a lot less now then he used to be.

[calshoer]

These are more normal questions this time!

These are about my mom's horse's feet. My own horse has easy to understand feet. My mom's horse is a bit goofy overall.

1) The seats of corn seem always to be shallower (more built up from the point of view of the bottom of the coffin bone) than the area between the bars and the quarters leading up to them and since due to current climate (freeze/thaw/mud) there is very little in the way of dead sole if any I was wondering if this is because the bottom of the coffin bone does indeed come closer to the ground at that point or just because it is more of a calloused area it doesn't exfoliate as fast. It is hard to tell if there is any dead sole in there at all - I clean out some of the raggedy dirty white line that's in there but don't take much of the sole part out since the contrast is hard to determine. Should I clean it out closer to the level of the quarters or just risk leaving the heels a little high?

Since the sole follows the botom of the coffin bone, in feet where the coffin bone may have a zero or negative angle to the ground, the sole plane will be the same...closer to the ground in the rear than the front. Never remove sole in the corn rea if itappears to be live. Always better to leave it than thin it. Patty


2) Also, on that same horse, if you drew a line between the frontmost part of a bar to a "pillar" (toe/quarter meeting point) on the same side of the hoof, there is a patchy circular area of sole on that line's midpoint about the size of a quarter (the coin) that appears to be live although it is a bit higher on the sole than the rest of the sole and happens on all four feet in the same places on each hoof. It isn't the moonsickle, it's deeper in than that really, and the moonsickle is also there just more forward. I was wondering what anyone thought about it. My other horse who is perfect doesn't have it, so I am wondering about it.

That could be where the corners of the coffin bone really are in those feet. Especialy if that cofin boen has very defined 'corners'. If you map out the foot from the widest part, does the breakover line end up at the front edge of those patches?. Patty

The only other odd thing about this horse is that his frogs used to be pulled forward of thier apex and are pretty large for the size of his feet, although since I trimmed him for the first time a month ago the point of the frog flapped off on all four feet (I didn't want to trim it off before in case he needed it).

In a foot that once had a distorted toe, after the whole foot is trimmed for better function, with the rear of the foot is brought back where it belongs, the front portion of the foot will begin to remodel. It moves back into a better ,tighter relationship with P3. When it does, the frog eventualy sheds off a big top layer revealing a much shorter wider frog underneath. Patty

He's also cowhocked and slightly toed out in front although a lot less now then he used to be.


Sounds like you are on the right track, And remember,some amount of cowhock is perfectly normal. Patty

[xoethecat]

Thank you Patty, I hope I am on the right track, I keep on trying to learn more all the time. My trims this time were a lot better than last time, and I hope they will get to where I feel like I know what I'm doing! I thought of another couple of questions about the heels I didn't ask, anyone can answer as long as the answer is right!:

When trimming the heels, Gene says he wants to get a "clean triangle" which from watching seems to me to be to rasp down until you just start to get a clean white line in the heel and then stop. The sole is usually below this level (closer to the coffin bone) but like you said I don't want to touch that live sole in the seat of corn. It is easy to tell when you get clean white line, even easier than worrying about removing the dead sole in that little corner, which often gets mixed up with dirty white line, etc. I suppose if you had heel flare you'd hit sole first, but I don't. However, to do this, one heel will often be farther back along the foot than the other, if only by an 1/8 or 1/4" of an inch, may be a different height (if looked at from behind when the foot is on the ground, which can also be expressed as if you drew a line between the two heel bulbs it wouldn't be parallel to the ground - not height in terms of being taller than the sole plane), and also don't have matching curves (in terms of the curve of the outside wall bending in to the heel, looking at the bottom of the foot.). Gene says you can tell which heel is higher because it is more curved than the other, but I don't know if I should lower the higher heel until the curves are similar, or if I should leave it alone because I've just gotten to the clean white line. This is more obvious in the hinds, because in both horses they are asymmetrical. Which is it most important to follow?

My mom's horse does likely have some internal damage as though he was never shod, he was traditionally trimmed all his life (he's 13) and his feet were likely kept particularly long when he was down South as he is gaited. The front of those patches could be where his coffin bone is, that's a bit alarming to think about, but he's sound. He does have very wide frogs now, which is good in that he's using them, I wonder if he's got more weight on the back of his feet because the front of his coffin bone is disintegrated?

My horse is a mustang, was in the wild until he was three, was trimmed using natural barefoot methods (not by me) until age 5, then I got him and he was trimmed using traditional methods until this December. I used to get complements all the time in the beginning about how he always stood square (he wasn't trained to) and how great his legs were and what great conformation he had. Now he doesn't stand square anymore, he seems slightly knockneed/toed out in front and toed out more behind - I hope it's my trimming and not his bone structure that needs improvement, which do you think? Would his coffin bones have shifted so much from side to side in his feet with a traditional trim (long heel long toe?)?

[xoethecat]

I also wanted to add that my mom's horse, the one with the odd sole patches, also has a thinner sole callous than my horse, and it runs almost all the way around the hoof back to where the bars start. It may be because it is thinner that it seems more prominent, but on my horse, the mustang, he's got a wider flatter sole callous that is only really obvious at the toe area, and not in the quarters. Just thought I'd add that too. Maybe he's got clubbier feet in general?

[Jason Maki]

Xcat,
(bet you did not know you were an X-Man! Whats your power?)
I have never been to an NB clinic, which hopefully I will resolve this year. However, I have an idea about the heel heights which may or may not help you. The bent heel is longer, but the bending not only occurs across the X axis(medial/ lateral) but also on the Y or proximal/ distal axis. When the heel bends in, it is also being shoved up. The heel is connected via the laminae to cartilage. The sole is only 'x' thick, but is pliable. When the horn and cartilage are twisted up and in, the sole is pulled, distorting your baseline. I have seen these heels twisted as much as an inch, though that is extreme. These feet are invariably also flared in the opposite toe/quarter region.
Try this. Trim the foot to the level of the sole, hog off the flare, then tape a 1 1/2 inch styrofoam frog plate to the foot, then force the horse to load that foot for 5 minutes. When you pick that foot back up, the horn, laminae and cartilage on the medial aspect will have descended down below the "sole plain". The sole will have then returned to a more normal relation to the basil surface of PIII as well. Re- trim the foot to your new, more correct level. You may need to re-address and re drerss the lateral 1/4 as well. All components of the foot are three D, each is able to distort. This creates multiple variables, all of which need to be taken into account.
The sole is a much better guide in the front half, due to the less mallable connection to PIII ) though that can distort up and out as well). The rear half can distort greatly( by design) and other factors must be recognized, not just the sole alone, though it is a big part of the equation.
Jason Maki

[xoethecat]

Ok, to my mind, and please tell me if I'm not understanding this correctly because the possibility is good!, but if you just lowered the heels to where you think they should be, or slightly longer than that in order to give you some room for error and changes later on, and then let the horse have a few days on hard ground, the same thing would be accomplished. There is also such a thing as lowering the heels too far for the new frog pressure on the digital cushion to be comfortable, increasing heel discomfort and therefore loading on the front of the foot to escape that, which is not my goal. However, if the heels and the frog are at the same level once the trim is done, that is not going too far, right (as long as the frog is large - if it's small and sick, then that would invade live sole).