Dish on toe/quarter on Lateral side

[Farriersedge]

Ok this horse I have been doing for a few years and he just developed a dish is the toe/quarter on the lateral side of his right front. He has never had shoes on. I wish I had a pic for you all to see I will soon so bear with me. What could or might cause a horse to develope this other then being out of balance cause he really is balanced - flat -level?
Brooke

[Dave Purves]

Hey Brooke, flat and level do not mean perpendicular to the limb. Just keep that in mind. Anyway if he is balanced then I would suspect some sort of sub-clinical lameness. Watch him move with and without a rider. Video tape it if you have to so you can really see what he's doing. Charge for your time. How old of a horse is this? Sometimes old age is a witch, flex the lower leg and feel the tendons, make sure they aren't swollen and make sure the horse isn't uncomfortable when you do this. You may have to adjust your trim to accomidate something that is going on higher in the leg.
Good luck
Dave Purves CF :)

[T.N. Trosin]

Oh Dave don't let Patty or any of the other NBS crowd here you say that.
Chances are that the horse has developed a jam on the medial side probably from a high spot that has developed over the years. I agree with Dave when he says though trimmed flat it isn't perpendicular to the limb it's self.
Check it with a t-square, of course unless the limb is deviated.

[Dave Purves]

You're right T.N. I should have said properly aligned with the conformation of the leg. Thanks I don't want to get chewed out for a silly mistake like that.
Dave Purves CF :D

[Farriersedge]

Hey all
This horse is a 4 yr old tb/qt cross and he has never been lame. But I agree that it could be a jam, but how do you get rid of it I would be invading some serious sensitive tissue if I tried to take the flair/ dish out. So lets say I made the mistake and left him high that is what created the dish??
Brooke

[Dave Purves]

Maybe, but if there is that much flare, I would be looking at the conformation of the leg. Is he a little clubby? Maybe you can get some pics posted, that would help alot.
Dave Purves CF
PS Don't get to caught up in blaming yourself yet, there could be alot of things going on.

[Jaye Perry]

Here you go,

This is a Warmblood hunter presented with LF Jam medially/Dish in lateral Toe Quarter, shearing heels, thrush, bad coffin joint and fetlock.
Three or four ailments at one time due to faulty trimming. Joints were injected then applied a "Hidden barshoe".
I cut the bar out of a GCE #10 eggbar and re-welded with torches. I wanted stability over the coffin joint area and eliminate shearing of the heels. The shoe is open at the heels so the thrush can be easily teated.

Dr. Rooney has a good article, on this site, about the transverse planes in horses feet. The planes in these feet are what would called "Racked" due to improper trimming for prolong periods.

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Jaye,

The dorsal view of the LF shows a typical off balance foot that resulted from a high medial heel.

In cases like these I just drop the medial side (usually agressively) to even out the walls. This does make a foot look like the medial wall is way too short for a while. It usually also makes the foot toe out for a while too. I lower the lateral toe quarter when that happens. And in cases like this, this over-doing-it appearance, can last a long time (maybe even 4 to 5 shoeings) but in the end it gets better. Generally I end up with a medial extension of some sort to the shoe.

When I can not easily move the heels from each other with my hands I don't use a bar shoe.

I can't say I'm not confident working this way, and got a lot of horses a lot better. Stil, I do hate that feet sometimes look like I overdid the lowering of the medial side, while I really haven't. The heels are of equal length. Its just the coffin bone that got displaced in the hoofcapsule overtime creating the jam/shear, and overtime will have to get back nicely in the middle of the hoofcapsule, medial and lateral sides just as high from the ground.

When horses ran into the jam/shear (and the P3 displacement) because something is wrong, (whatever that may be, in a lot of cases I don't have a clue) it can take a long time to get them back being a really well balanced foot. And a lot of them never seem to land even, whatever you do.

I thought I'ld write this down and get other people to share their experiences in dealing with this problem, which is A MUCH BIGGER problem to work on than people think.



Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

Let's look at the RF and both fronts. pics 1 & 2
Foot conformation of the RF looks more normal, with angular problem in LF at the Fetlock.
In addition, pics 3 & 4, show the same shearing/jamming type from over trimming of medial side of LF which in the long term resulted in a "Honking" sidebone in another horse presented.

When looked at from the a/p view of the 1st LF foot, an "Hour Glass" shape can be viewed. Wide appearance at the coronary, tucked or contracted in the areas of the "proximal navicular area" and "distal p2 area", then wide at the ground surface. Thus, pain is illicted in the coffin joint area(s) when the foot is loaded. Pain and inflammation is reduced with joint injection and with some type of coffin joint support whether from a bar or pads and packing. I have had good luck with trimming the heels even as possible, not over trimming one heel or the other has been my experience. In both of these cases the horses were trimmed and stalled for 24 hours, then trimmed again and again. Both cases the laterad sides of both LF dropped with significance, not the medial sides.


In both cases both horses are exibiting upper leg problems in the rear, LH stifles. So, can there be a case of ipsilateral compensation of the front leg and foot causing the "WRY" appearnce and shearing.

[J.H. shoeing]

Ronald

I run into cases down here alot that requires aggressive trimming to get the foot into balance. Sometimes the foot will look out of balance after I done because it has been so long since it was balanced. I did a little bay Doc O something or another yesterday morning that will probably require several shoeings to get her hind feet really balanced. They have been out of whack for so long That I could not get enough medial heel cut out. Just brushed the laterial side and trimmed the medial and when I finished it looked like the medial side was too low but it was still high and that was because the foot was so jacked up in the medial heel when I started.

Jeff

[calshoer]

Tom, I certainly don't have any disagreement with Dave's advice to assess the horse in movement. I do that all the time although I may be looking for a few different things than some farirers. (Since not all horses can or should land flat).
My beef is with the 'perpendicular to the limb' therory...there is plenty of good science (done by people not affiliated with NB) to illustrate why that may (not always) place the less than perfect bone column out of balance and end up unevely loading the capsule and joints. And causing medial lateral hoof distortion. Even in the "ideal limb", there is enough natural disparity in the shape of the distal condyle of P1 that a *very* slight tip of the foot up or down, or a very slight angle to your eye can throw off the appearance of the right angle via the "T-square" view. This was clearly illustrated recently by a non biased veterinarian (Dr Andy Parks) in his anatomy lesson at Cincinnati. There is too much science now showing the better accuracy of the live sole plane to keep relying on T-squares.
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Jaye, what GREAT quality X-rays you guys come up with!

You said you do not over trim uneven heels. What's not over trimming? You don't even out heels (when possible) at once, you take small steps doing that?

Jeff, that's what I see and that's what makes a lot of shoers not even out heels because it starts worying them seeing the foot so out of whack. It's true once you're done evening out the heels, it sometimes looks a lot worse than before the trim.



Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye, what GREAT quality X-rays you guys come up with!
You said you do not over trim uneven heels. What's not over trimming? You don't even out heels (when possible) at once, you take small steps doing that?
Ronald Aalders


Yes , I even the heels as much and as soon as posible. If possible, I'll trim and let the horse be stalled 24 hours and trim till i can't possibly trim anymore. If the horse can't be seen the next day, I will pull and trim and do the horse at the end of the day or trip if possible. If those options are not possible I'll do the rears first and then the fronts. :D :D

Digital X-rays are the best. Can't wait for affordable and ambulatory MRI. :cool:

Here's a pic that correlates with Jams/Shears within the proximal hoof capsule.

[Farriersedge]

OK he is also flat footed and has 00 feet with like a long toe low heel thing going on I set a 00 eventer on him and dressed off the flair a little more then I ever have it looks better and I am excited to see what he looks like in a few weeks. the foot looked more 50/50 under his limb. I will have before and after pics for you all soon.
Thanks again for all your help and advice. Brooke CF

[Jaye Perry]

...... the foot looked more 50/50 under his limb. I will have before and after pics for you all soon.
Thanks again for all your help and advice. Brooke CF

Good, Qoute- " Your are not makng a masterpiesce, you are shoeing the F****** horse for a few weeks and starting all over again"- Seamus Brady

[Andrew Grimm]

Speaking of jamming, I have seen many horses with jammed medial heels and flared on the outside and when I look at these feet the coronary band is high on the inside but when you go to trim the inside there isn't anything to trim off and these horses land outside first.
The guy I apprenticed with all ways trims the flared side or to the side the hoof points. I have heard of these other methods to achieve balance like using the t square method, sole plane theory, trim looking at the coronary band, landing flat slightly heel first. And I would like someone to explain these methods to me why they feel one is right or wrong and why.
Currently I trim the hoof capsule perpindicular to the limb however this method hasn't won me over as a cure all for all horses.
I would like to understand the theorys behind these other methods as well.

[calshoer]

Ronald wrote: In cases like these I just drop the medial side (usually agressively) to even out the walls. This does make a foot look like the medial wall is way too short for a while. It usually also makes the foot toe out for a while too
I agree . I have found that the apparently "live" sole in the jammed medial heel,which makes it appear that you cannot trim much there, is actually retained sole. More careful exploration around the sole wall junction will usually locate the true live sole in that area. It IS tricky.
I don't lower the lateral toe, I just reduce the flare there. It seems to take care of itself after that , after the coffin bone is level medial laterally to the ground.

Now to my ideas about bar shoes .I do not like to "stabilize" weak shearing heels .
A bar shoe guarantees that the whole back of the foot will pretty much lose function, (as in these pictures).
If I can *support* and stimulate that frog ,using it to share the load with the heels, when it gets healthy again the whole back of the foot gets stronger.
I WANT movement in the back of that foot to get help to the puny frog ,so I use varying degrees of frog support on them instead of a bar shoe.
Besides, a bar shoe does not prevent the weak hoof capsule from shearing any more than a regular shoe does. Think about it. Either one is a solid object nailed to the bottom of a hoofwall.
They are both rigid, both loading the wall exactly the same. Think about it a minute. The horse leans into a corner, loads one side of the the foot more. Bar shoe or regular shoe, doesn't matter, the shoe ain't flexing. The bar does exactly *nothing*.
Except to eliminate any chance for the heels to spread and for that frog to pick up part of the weight bearing load and do it's job.
BUT, now consider if you use the frog instead of the hoofwall to help support the heels. The heels can spread, the weak tissues inside the foot may get healthier, the frog can spread out and and eliminate the deep envoronment in the central sulcis that was condusive to thrush.
Patty

[calshoer]

" Your are not makng a masterpiesce, you are shoeing the F****** horse for a few weeks and starting all over again"-

If you are starting all over again with the same issues you began with, you are not doing your job.
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

" Your are not makng a masterpiesce, you are shoeing the F****** horse for a few weeks and starting all over again"-

If you are starting all over again with the same issues you began with, you are not doing your job.
PattyIf you are starting all over again with the same issues you began with, you are not doing your job.
Patty


For those who have a remedial mind set that maybe the prose or argument suits the sales pitch. Most upper level farriers, who don't work on rock grubbers, would work from where they left off previously. Most farriers on this board are not *****s as some would tend prose their zealot, redundant and polemic thoughts.
Conformation doesn't change!!

We can discuss this over dinner in West Palm; as I asked in another thread Patty. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[calshoer]

Jaye said :Conformation doesn't change!!
No it doesn't, but distortions in the foot sure can!
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye said :Conformation doesn't change!!
No it doesn't, but distortions in the foot sure can!
Patty


To a certain extent. I depends on comformation.