Horse bad for farrier, ok for owner

[horsey nurse]

I am an owner looking for advice. I also really like my farrier and want to keep her safe and coming back. She has been shoeing my horse for about a year. He has had his ADD moments in the past but nothing horrendous. The last several shoeings have been horrendous though. The horse tries to pull his leg away, stomp down on her foot, stand on the hoof stand or slide forward off the hoof stand, when she tries to pick up a front hoof he will stamp/kick with his hind. I am not a pansy owner and refuse to put up with this **** from him. So with my farriers help (she loaned me a stand) I have been putting his foot on the stand, taking a hard brush to it, tapping on the shoe as I craddle his foot etc. He stand great for me. I can even walk away from him and he will leave his foot on the stand. But when she comes to put his shoes on he becomes a terror. We have finally resorted to drugging him but I would eventually like him to be good enough for her so that I don't have to use the drugs. Does he do this out of a lack of respect for her? Does she need to have a come to Jesus meeting with him when he becomes a jerk next time? Please, any advice is welcome.

[Dances with Hooves]

This is Marie George's wife I'm a trainer. Without really knowing the specifics its tough to say. I would suggest 2 possibilites though.

1.) There is something the farrier is doing that bothers the horse. If he's arthritic maybe the stand is too high. Maybe theres a personality clash going on. But if hes been good in the past something has changed.

2.) If hes good for you on the stand you could try what we did with my witchy mare who was good for me but not for george. You put her foot on the stand and hold the foot there european style while the farrier does her work. Worked good for us the horse trusted mommy and the farrier did not get thrashed. If this does not work than something is hurting or she needs that come to Jesus experience.

Marie Gagnon

[horsey nurse]

thanks Marie. I am frankly at my wits end about this and very frustrated. I think I will try holding the horse's foot next time to see if we can make that work. My farrier is out tomorrow to tack a shoe back on for me so hopefully this will be a good experience.

[Gary_Miller]

I think it time for that come to Jesus meeting between your farrier and your horse. This horse has no respect for your farrier and is testing her with every move. Your farrier without you needs to take this horse into the center of the round corral with a long lead rope. When your horse pulls its foot or acts up even a little your farrier needs to get the horse moving right away. A few circles in both directions. Some rapid back ups. And my favorite one is getting the hindend to disengage making do small circles while crossing the hind legs. Then take the horse back to the center and go back to work as if nothing ever happened. May take a couple of times and a few minutes but the horse will decide it better to stand for the farrer than mess around.

[Steel N Sole]

Does he do this out of a lack of respect for her?

Yes. I agree with others who have said this. I have been under a few horses that were absolute pigs with me, and oh so darling for momma. They were darling for momma because the respect is there. I just go there kind of say hello and get to work expecting the horse to be good with its feet.
If the horse isn't I will either rub my hammer or rasp handle, whatever on their belly and sometimes that will distract them. If that doesn't work they get an open handed smack on their belly. If the horse is still fiddlin' around and won't stand still but is being a pig about it I will have their foot up, hanging onto the toe and push them so that the have to hop around a bit.
If they pick their back foot up and stomp I will smack them on the belly. I have one horse that I shoe and he is quite the guy. He is a cuddler with his owner and when I go to pick his front foot up he is trying to knock my head off with his hind hoof. If I don't get after him right then and there it is a fight the rest of the time.
Your farrier just has to up and smack him a few times and not put up with what he is doing.

[Dances with Hooves]

Your farrier just has to up and smack him a few times

Well as a natural horsemanship trainer who is a follower of Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Pat Parreli and Clinton Anderson and speaking from my own experience helping George use the exact methods mentioned by gary to quickly reach horses I have to disagree strongly with steel and sole.

It just does not take long at all to reach a disrespectfull horse and the excersices can be done right in the barn aisle no need to walk out to the round pen. Owners and horses will much prefer that you yield the hindquarters and back the horse over the methods discussed by steel and sole. Being firm yet fair will win out over fear and intimidation every time.

Marie

[Steel N Sole]

Being firm yet fair will win out over fear and intimidation every time.



Give the horse a smack ie an open handed slap that makes a lot of noise and hurts you more than anything, does not strike fear and intimidation into the horse.

Well as a natural horsemanship trainer who is a follower of Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Pat Parreli and Clinton Anderson and speaking from my own experience helping George use the exact methods mentioned by gary to quickly reach horses I have to disagree strongly with steel and sole.


Being the one that is under the misbehaving horses...
To each their own. I am not a natural horsemanship trainer as I have a few beefs with the name of it and also some of the teachings. I do what works. It is NOT striking fear and intimidation into the poor horse it is just not getting tossed around like a rag doll and being so passive with it all.
and I have done the whole back them up and disengage their hindend with a few horses that have been through a few farriers and a few hours of frustration and still they hadn't had their feet done and I had them done in 20mins with that method. But it all depends on the situation. I have one horse like I mentioned in my other post that puts on an ugly face and will knock your head off if you don't get after him. All the backing up and disengaging would do diddily squat to him. He'd still be aiming. He needs just one loud smack NOT hard but loud and then we have an agreement that if he does something inappropriate like try to kick me I will do something to him and that is a smack. That second smack never happens though because he knows he needs to behave for the time I am working on him. The rest of the time he will almost fall asleep while cuddling with his owner and have an ear on me.
But to each their own. Again, I do not profess to be a trainer but I do offer my services to people because I have had amazing results and people know me for being amazingly patient with their horses and very quiet. That is what gets results. You could have a super hi-strung 'natural horsemanship' trainer work with a horse and yes, results may occur but bet I could achieve them faster.
I feel competitive today :p
anyways, I'm done with this thread. Best of luck :cool:

[Jaye Perry]

Steel N Sole....
anyways, I'm done with this thread. Best of luck :cool:

Whinning are ya!

People need to prove their worth, if they can't shoe and make pertinate business decisions they diverge into the "Natural".:cool:

[Phil Armitage]

The last several shoeings have been horrendous though.

Hi Horsey Nurse

I gather the shoeing prior to the last several have been good. What has changed? Do you notice any signs of lameness? Did the farrier quick the horse once before? Need to figure out why things have gotten worse before you do any training or correction.

[Andrew Grimm]

Being firm yet fair will win out over fear and intimidation every time.

Marie


In my experience, "it depends", some seem to respond well to fear and intimidation and others dont. This is why I leave the training to the trainers and/or the horse owners.

Horsey nurse,
It sounds like you care about your farrier; "good on ya" for trying to make things safer, and easier for her.
How have the drugs been working?
If they've been working well then it's probably best to use them until you get things figured out.
I wish you and you farrier good luck.

[Brian Purrington]

I do not profess to be a trainer but I do offer my services to people because I have had amazing results and people know me for being amazingly patient with their horses and very quiet. That is what gets results. You could have a super hi-strung 'natural horsemanship' trainer work with a horse and yes, results may occur but bet I could achieve them faster.
I feel competitive today
anyways, I'm done with this thread. Best of luck

This attitude is dangerous to both yourself and horses. The minute we think we have a handle on "IT" we find out we dont...... I disagree with your anylysis of your ability and urge you to be careful. Otherwise, one time when you least expect it, you will find out the hard way.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I'm also of the view that something must have happened to make the horse think that there's something to be concerned about.

Now this may well have been a pain thing or it may just be that its messed about and slipped off the stand and not been handled with consistent confidence to get it back to behaving.

I'm not sure at which point he starts to mess the farrier about? Is it as soon as she picks up the foot or when trimming? Shoeing? It is all feet or just the hinds?

It sounds however that you've made progress with him so far but some things to try to progress it further. If I know a little more about when and how it occurs, might be able to offer a little more help.

But in the meantime though I don't know your cir***stances some of these might not be possible or practical but here goes:

Get as many folks as possible to handle your horse's feet and lift them.

If the farrier is there to do other horses, then get this horse out and have the farrier handle it and lift its feet etc but without the need to trim it.

Do the trimming and shoeing at a different location - I've one that had a real hang up - brought on by a pain thing but got so he associated a particular spot in the yard.

You hold the horses feet and if he's messing about then you do the disciplining.

[Gary_Miller]

Steel N Sole
I won't disagree that at times a good smack or a belly kick is what a horse needs to wake them up at times. It works especally well on horses who know how to stand but just want to dink around. Even the so called "Natural" (I hate that term) Horse Traners will tell you that is necessary at times.

However, I have found that making the horse work if it miss behaves has better and longer lasting results than is I get phisical and smack the horse. The reason for this is that the horse gains long term respect for me instead of short term.

I shod a horse the other day that would kick hard while nailing on the hinds (at least that was what I was told). So hard that one time he kicked the farriers hammer across the barn. So they had been drugging the horse to get the job done. Using my method I nailed on the hinds with only a slight wiggle.

I had to work with this horse a little longer as normal as the first thing I noticed was he had do respect for me or anyone else. When I first took him into the round pen he displayed this disrespect by looking outside the pen while being work and not focusing on me. Once he started to focus on me everything else went easy.

Oh and by the way smacking this horse would of only made things worse. He had been smacked so much that he expected it everytime he tried something. I could tell this by everytime he pulled a foot or did something else he would quickly move away to avoid the smack that was comming. Imagine his supprise when the only smack he got was from the lead rope to get him moving.

As for time 20 min max is the average that I've had to work with one this way. After that they usually stand, with the lead rope laying on the ground under their nose, while I work on all four feet.

[Joey Aczon]

I'm also of the view that something must have happened to make the horse think that there's something to be concerned about....

...I'm not sure at which point he starts to mess the farrier about? Is it as soon as she picks up the foot or when trimming? Shoeing? It is all feet or just the hinds?


This is the same thing I'm thinking / wondering. "What" set's him off.

... as a side note, this is how I got into hoofcare. We used to do some horse trading in CA and usually had between 25 - 50 horses. We had a run of several horses that wouldn't let the farrier handle them to trim them. I could do anything with them but they'd knock him over try to kick him etc etc. So one day he came out and we spent a day just trying to work with them. (yes he was paid) We eventually decided to try having me work the tools and do the work with him standing watching... about a month later I was doing all our "basic" trimming with him critiqueing my work when he was there for our shod horses, then about a year and a half later I was riding with him and shoeing horses.

[Andrew Grimm]

So one day he came out and we spent a day just trying to work with them. (yes he was paid)


Joey,
thank you for mentioning the "Paid" part. Horse owners should not expect us farriers to take extra time to train there misbehaving horses for free.

If "I" had a misbehaving horse, I wouldn't put the farrier at risk or waste his/her time fooling with my horse. I would result to drugs until I or another trainer could get the horse to were he acted appropriately with any farrier I had. IMO, a properly mannered/trained horse should allow anybody to shoe and/or trim his/her feet.

Certainly, a pain related problem could cause this type of behaviour. IME, this is most of the time not the case. To me it's very distinguishable between a horse that's in pain, a nervous/ scared horse, an untrianed/unhandled horse, and a horse that's just plain ignorant.

[Donald Ruff]

There's more to this story than meets the eye.

Donald

[Bill Adams]

I encorperate the style of Parelli, Lyons, Anderson, et al, and have found that it works great.
In order to expeadate the process though, I find I need to use Natural Horse Comunitaion. This is where I hit, kick and intimadate as best I can as another horse would do, although I can not hit or kick nearly as hard as a horse can. I do think that biting is wrong as the hair in the mouth dose not apeel to me at all.
I have found that innurmerabal times over the years that asking, cajoling, sweet talking, promising and providing treets, etc, dose not work as well as a smack. As in from being a bad boy to being a good boy.
I believe in using the reward that horses give each other: if your do what I want, I'll quit atacking you.
This is of course for the stuborn or mean type, like the one discribed in the first post. A young or scared type is different.
Bill

[horsey nurse]

Thanks for the input everyone.

Bill, I think you are right he isn't mean, just stubborn and when he want to be done with the farrier he want's to be done. I think that he is just being a pain for the farrier because he is really a one person horse and won't try anything with me, but with others he will push their buttons. So we drugged him the last two times the farrier was out.

Thomas:
I'm also of the view that something must have happened to make the horse think that there's something to be concerned about.

I am not sure, he has very bad hoof walls (we feel it was from his previous exposure to lots of mud everyday in the field). Where he is now is much dryer, we put keratex hoof hardner on his feet 2xweek and he gets grand hoof and lysine for supplements (just added lysine). We can see the good hoof wall growing down, now he just needs to keep growing it.

Now this may well have been a pain thing or it may just be that its messed about and slipped off the stand and not been handled with consistent confidence to get it back to behaving.

I handle his feet everyday (pulling his leg forward brushing it off, bringing it back and acting like I was driving nails in to his foot by tapping on the rim of the shoe with the back of my brush). He is always very good with me.

I'm not sure at which point he starts to mess the farrier about? Is it as soon as she picks up the foot or when trimming? Shoeing? It is all feet or just the hinds?

he in only bad up front, predominately when she is putting the nails in, he is barefoot behind and lets her trim the hinds without any difficulty. He doesn't appear to be in pain, he is sound and gets regular chiro and accupuncture from my vet.

It sounds however that you've made progress with him so far but some things to try to progress it further. If I know a little more about when and how it occurs, might be able to offer a little more help.

that would be great!

But in the meantime though I don't know your cir***stances some of these might not be possible or practical but here goes:

Get as many folks as possible to handle your horse's feet and lift them.
The barn manager should be back in the barn more now that she has had ner baby so I wll ask her if she will do this. I am the only border so there aren't a ton of people around. The working student she has is very nice but very green and Toad has already learned that he is higher up in the pecking order than she is.

If the farrier is there to do other horses, then get this horse out and have the farrier handle it and lift its feet etc but without the need to trim it.

I'll see if she is doing any other horses in the barn and ask if she is willing to do this. The other farrier that comes to the barn is not one I want working with my horse.

Do the trimming and shoeing at a different location - I've one that had a real hang up - brought on by a pain thing but got so he associated a particular spot in the yard.

Where we do the shoeing is typically where he is crosstied in the barn when I groom him and he appears relaxed and unstressed while he is being groomed.

You hold the horses feet and if he's messing about then you do the disciplining.

I am quick to discipline this boy. Not with a beating mind you but with a cupped hand on his belly. I also use a growl tone when he misbehaves so he knows I mean business.

As far as making him work when he is misbehaving, he usually does it when she has the nails in before she cuts of the ends and clenches them. Not exactly the time I want him to be made to move out, and run the risk of him catching himself with one of the nail ends sticking out on the inside. I have tried backing him up in the past as others have suggested but he is too smart for that, he will back as far as I want but then he doesn't want to go back where the farrier is and when I get him back to the farrier as soon as they picks the foot up he starts backing up.

Donald, I don't think their is more to this story than I am telling.


Phil, this sounds ignorant, but how would I know if she quicked him? Do they bleed, go lame or what? Is quicking them the same as a hot nail? Everytime I have been there to see him shod he has been sound after being shod and I have never seen her draw blood with a nail.


She came to put back on a pulled shoe on Sunday morning (what a great farrier to come on the weekend). I showed her what I had been doing to him He was good as always. I think at that point the horse realized that this game had gone on long enough, and my farrier realized he could be good. At that point he stood for her with a minimal amount of fuss over being shod and so she was able to do him without drugs. It was such a relief to not have to fight with him while the farrier was there. The only time he got ****y I bopped him on the stomach with my cupped hand and that was the only discipline that he needed. He seems to object the most when the nails are going in.

[Joey Aczon]

You don't actually have to draw blood to quick a horse with a nail. One that's just too close can still bug them, like getting a splinter under your fingernail, one that may not draw blood or hurt enough to really effect you, but enough to really make you think about not letting that happen again.

[Steel N Sole]

He seems to object the most when the nails are going in.


I have a horse that I do that is excellent with everything except when it comes to the time to nail. I can hammer on her hoof, hammer on the shoe on her hoof...she doesn't care. But when I even lightly tap a nail to start it she starts pulling and wiggling. What has worked it just ignoring her. Hanging on and trying to hammer the nails in without hitting my hand or knee :rolleyes:
I got her because the farrier before would only do her if she were tranq'd. She got beat quite good a few times by that farrier. The first time I shod her it took 1.5hours and that was just for fronts on her. Now it takes 40mins with room to improve. The one thing that would upset this would be quicking her so we try not to do that.

[Gary_Miller]

It could be that your farrier is tweeking the foot up to much when nailing and the horse is uncomfortable. Have her try holding the foot lower and more under the horse and see what happens.

[beslagsmed]

For me every horse is different. One must learn to read the horse. One must know when to be firm, and what type of correction will work the best. I beleive it is different with each horse. Many I can correct with only my voice. Is the horse in pain, disrespectful, inpatient, mean, does he/she have to take a p-i-s-s?

I guess when its all boiled down and said - horses are like kids (so I am told, don't got any) and they got to be read correctly.

Mikel

[Brian Purrington]

So, I'll chime in here..... Since I now have first hand experience with this specific horse. Last Monday I went out to help the attending farrier, who is very competant and just needed some help with shoe placement and the like. She had been very conservative and some of the nail placement was wall nailed. There is no way the attending farrier had nailed this horse.

After getting the old shoes off and shaping up the new, we hot fit them and got ready to nail up. During all of this the horse basicly was OK. A little trouble at the cross ties, but with a new person under him I was giving the benifit of the doubt. We had moved to basicly a "ground tied" situation or one would hold for the other.

Then it started... Now mind you I was there to help out. I opted to do the first foot and let the other farrier duplicate placement. Upon placing the very first nail the horse started to jerk his foot repeatedly. I hadn't even driven the taper yet. I checked my placement and it was good. I continued on with the foot pulling and was thinking to myself.... "This horse must have been nailed at some time". I finally got the nail set and started to drive and he did the jerky thing again.... Yep I nailed him. Sure as **** as I was saying to the attending farrier "he must've been nailed before..." checked my placement and there it was ... Red food coloring.

All this done, I treated the site, and was able to continue on with no more or no less trouble on the front end. Little trouble on the hind. My point in saying all this is two fold.

First, The horse (sorry horsey nurse) has poor ground manners and this makes ANYTHING you do with the horse difficult.

Second, This behavior contributes to the likelyhood that a horse will get hurt in some way during the shoeing process. Not only is it dangerous for him it is dangerous for the "entities" around him.

The behavior is not specifically directed to the farrier, it is general manners where the problem starts. This concept is hard for alot of horse owners because what they percieve to be cute and/or good behavior is not necessarily so. I know the owner feels like the horse is better when she is there, but Her own description of him being better is "I keep him occupied while the farrier does the work". Ever see on of these "I keep him occupied" sessions with any of you clients? You know, the ones who are constantly fiddlin' with the horse head and mouth while you are under "dobbin"? It makes me crazy. Sometimes I'd rather have no one around to shoe a horse 'cause I get better results on my own.

I'm not here to bash the OP or her horse, Honestly I've seen much worse.... I think if she will work on his ground manners a bit alot of thes "issues" will be resolved.

PS. Yes I just told on myself.... the owner already knew. (which one of you hasn't nailed a horse at some time?) No lameness has been presented as a result of the "nailing" and actually the horse is going better, according to the owners obsevations, with the new setup.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

First, The horse (sorry horsey nurse) has poor ground manners and this makes ANYTHING you do with the horse difficult. Sadly all too often the case.

I'm not here to bash the OP or her horse, Honestly I've seen much worse.... I think if she will work on his ground manners a bit alot of thes "issues" will be resolved. There are too many horses that fidget, lean, snatch their feet away or worse still kick when the farrier is attempting to trim their feet or shoe them. This can be frustrating for both the owner and the farrier and could potentially cause a breakdown in the relationship between yourself, the farrier and your horse. Furthermore its not fair on the horse - it means that the horse is basically under stress and duress because its not been trained to stand politely and calmly and to be unconcerned.

Finding a good farrier is a job in itself without him refusing to come back to shoe your horse as it has just taken him forever to do what should be a routine trim and shoeing! (Farriers see many horses during the day and so are busy and in demand.) They cannot and should not risk getting injured because someone has neglected to train a horse. It’s the owner’s job to train the horse and the Farrier’s job to work with a co-operative and knowledgeable owner and horse to optimise to the performance requirements.

All too often owners make excuses or allowances for their horse not having impecible manners.

I don't know if the OP is still about and reading the forum but I'd suggest she needs to start with training the horse to stand with all four feet on the ground and not moving at all.

Carriages horses have to stand rock steady forever. It takes an age to harness them and to put them to and they can't ever move. I also think its just basic manners and a matter of safety for any old riding horse too - no matter what its going to be doing in its life.

Its not fair to expect the horse to behave for a farrier or a vet when the situation is going to be more stressful for it, if its not been trained.

So for the OP:-

First teach the horse to give to pressure.
I often start them on a lunge line. And every time he moves, I use a sharp "NO" and put him back into the place he was before he moved. Every time he turns his attention to something else (I don't mean just glancing at something but really, really looking at it), I bring his attention back to me and back to standing still. If he moves one step, he's moved back one. If he moves two, back two. So just like playing chess - he moves, I move - I keep after him, calmly and quietly putting him back where he should be.

To do this means that it could take a long time to do simple tasks like grooming because every time he moves his feet, you have to stop what you're doing and put him back.

When he has stood for a SHORT time past his usual standing time, then reward him, and take him for a short walk. After a minute, stop, and set him up again, and give him the "stand still" cue, and take a step back again. Do this ad nauseum until over time, you can step back ****her and ****her, and he is standing for longer periods.

I never angry nor irritated it he moves. I just simply reposition him to where he was.

Once its working on a lunge line, then they are tied on a short rope but so he can just put some slack in it. Slack is the release for him and the reward for standing quietly.

When he is doing well in the yard when its relatively peaceful, and this may take several days, then I like to continue when there's quite a bit of activity going on and other horses and things more distracting and do it again.

This is also coupled with work under long reins (presuming not a youngster) teaching him to stop and move his body off your pressure. This helps to make him better for when you're moving him back to his tying spot.

I always use the word "STAND" and reward long periods of standing still with a pat on the neck even once they are totally used to it. But I NEVER EVER EVER fiddle about and irritate or distract the horse. And I NEVER use food as a treat for training. Do that and it learns to expect attention when its standing and starts looking for it by shuffling about.

Because IMO standing on command is so important even when trained I remain consistent with expecting him to stand every time, without moving one foot. If you allow one foot to move before you say so, he will not grasp the concept. Likewise I continue to reward with kind words and a pat once he's stood quietly - whether it be for 10 minutes whilst he's tied and groomed or whether its for 2 hours whilst I'm doing work on a film set. A pat and a "good boy" and that is it.

Training to pick feet up follows this and once the horse understands its to co-operate by standing, then that comes relatively easily. I've posted previously on how I train a 'horror' to do that and it can be found if need be.