Preffered method of shoeing foundered horses Poll

[Phil Armitage]

I orignaly wanted to do a Poll on what is your preffered method of shoeing, forgot to select the poll option. So I will try again.

[calshoer]

I can't pick just one because it depends on the individual case. Although I probably use EDSS in the earliest phase in a lot of them, (and I do not use heart bars ever ) I may use any of several other different approaches depending on a lot of factors in that particular case. I also change the mechanics of what I am doing and switch to different materials to change those mchanics as the foot and whole body goes through the healing process, and as the horses metabolism changes for better or worse.

Any vet or farrier thinking that there is "one best" shoeing approach to their laminitis cases is going to get into big trouble with some of them. Even gene Ovnicek will tell you that EDSS (or NB which was never intended to treat acute or severe laminitis) is not appropriate for some cases. Some individual cases are better suited to something like a screwed on Steward Clog or even barefoot. Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Same here.

I can't pick one either, although as you may have guessed, if I had to make a choice I'ld go for the last option. Its just that the banana as such is nothing without proper derotation and arch support.

But I have used other methods too. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they did not work, more or less like the banana come to think of it...........



Ronald Aalders

[Moses Shaw]

i personally have had success with modifying reddens rails with acs. sometimes adding a heel plate or heart bar to it. ive found it really helps derotate p3. oh yeah i rocker them as well. mo

[calshoer]

Redden's Rails and ACS is based on the same mechanics as EDSS but lacks the advantage of adjustability. As well, with ACS and no pad it is a lot more difficult to prevent sole contact from the ACS over the fragile tip of P3 like you would have with the EDSS pad which is firmly pulled down into the relief area of the shoe, away from the sole .
With EDSS if you want more (or less) frog support, or more or less rail eight, or need to remove the rails altogether in between shoeing intervals you just grab your screw gun and change it without removing the shoe . ;) Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

You'ld have a point there Patty if it's frog support that's needed rather than reducing DDFT pull. Reducing DDFT pull after proper derotation reduces the strain on the apex of P3 dramatically. I don't think you need frog support to prevent rotation. You need frog support to help stabilize the palmar part of the foot as much as possible.


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

You are absolutely right about the importance in reducing the pull on DDFT through accurate derotation, proper placement of breakover point (reducing leverage at the toe) , and *sometimes* wedging the foot temporarily after derotation until the flexor muscles relax. That is all important parts of EDSS application .
Frog support is vitally important too. The frog support is to help stabilise the palmer aspect of P3 within the capsule and help unload the outer capsule,which helps prevent sinking which can and often does occur even with little tension on DDFT. So In my experience it has to be a multi part approach, with several mechanics all working in unison.
The reason I feel EDSS is better for my use than Reddens welded on rails and ACS is that I really like being able to cover as many bases in one application as I need, AND find it important to be able to make subtle changes without taking it off. I can adjust it as often as from day to day if necessary. (though adjustments are usually weeks apart ) . I can remove some frog support if the horse is not tolerating it, or add more if he needs more. I can fit the frog support longer toward the apex ,or trim it back shorter depending on where the tip of P3 is at that time. I can leave off the rails completely if the derotation and ease of breakover is enough to achieve enough reduction in tension of DDFT or start with rails of whatever height is needed and then later remove or change the height of the rails as the horses comfort and footfall dictates. Without taking off the shoe. That's all I was trying to say with a lot less words. That in my opinion the adjustability makes the EDSS a superior system over welded rails and ACS . Patty
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

I'm not defending Redden's beautiful rail shoes here (they are beautiful) for me anything the reduces DDFT pull, greatly improves breakover and allows wedging will work fine or else I make it work.

The frog support deal is something I've been working on lately though. I used to -as a rule- keep clear of the sole in front of the frog in laminitis cases. You know, put foam rubber or lightly packed cotton there and pour in whatever I'ld be using as a frog/sole support, then removing the foam or cotton.

Although I would not recommend "ignoring" the front of the frog (I still keep it clear except for perhaps acute cases) I did find that correct derotation does relieve the apex of P3 a lot if not maximal (how would you measure it anyway right?) This relief is I feel enough not really having to worry about too much pressure from your hoofpack there.

If you get a chance study the effect of derotation on clubfeet closely. (They're easier to manipulate because usually they're less sore and less acute than laminitis cases. And also usually the owner and vet won't be breathing down your neck so hard.) Derotation of interphalangeal rotation does make the apex less sore dramatically and almost "instantly". I have no reason to think in that respect interphalangeal rotation is different from capsular rotation. Beware of the purulent (is that how you say it in english?) nature of laminitis though! If after correct(!) derotation the front of the foot stays sore, this may well be caused by pus rather than the apex of P3 pushing down.

So because of this I've been questioning the need to be able to adjust the amount frog support. Obviously you need a good frog support material with the right 'toughness' to provide arch support that really supports, but I don't feel you need more than that.

O and for the "Blistering Winds" out there this is not an advise to just pour frog support on protuded P3's and/or (open) abcesses........... But I like to think I don't need such addendums on this board.



Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Ronald, that is another important difference between a properly applied EDSS and a rail shoe that the rail shoe and ACS is simply filled over the whole bottom with support material, sometimes covering the anterior sole.
Neither the impresion material nor the pad in EDSS contacts the anterior sole. The impresion material is trimmed away from that entire area before the shoe and pad are nailed. As well, the EDSS shoe and it's very specially designed pad is insures that not even the opad will touch the sole in thatarea. All support is well behind the apex of the frog (and the solar edge of P3) . There is NOTHING touching the anterior sole under the edge of P3. Support in EDSS is placed rearward of utilizes the frog and digital cushion to GENTLY stabilise P3 while insuring that the cir***flex artery has plenty of clearance to avoid the bone compressing it against the sole. (that is, IF the farrier actually followed the instructions.) Patty

[NHFarrier]

Calshoer - Ok, I am still in the learning stage, so forgive me if my question seems like something everyone should know! I was wondering what the EDSS pad system is? It sounds like a regular frog supporting pad, except you say it can be moved/removed if needed without shoe removal. Also what is your reason for not using heartbars? In the school I went to we were taught that being able to forge a heartbar has a big advantage over a pad because it won't break down or cause sole pressure, tends not to slip when applied and leaves the bottom of the foot exposed to the air and for viewing. I am not trying to be judgemental, but wanting to learn better ways if they are out there. One school's opinion isn't always right! Thanks.

Amy

[calshoer]

First, reasons I do not use heart bars is:
They concentrate all the support to just the frog but leave out all the other necessary supportive structures in the rear of the foot such as the bars, the commisures and caudal sole. ALL of those structures help in supporting p3.
Second, heart bars have to be applied SO precisely to be effective without causing harm , and that precision goes right out the window as soon as the horse grows just a little foot ,necessating the frequent painful and expensive and resets. One of the worst thing in my mind you can do to a foundered horse is traumatize his feet every three weeks.
Next, heart bars do nearly NOTHING to reduce pull on the DDFT if the flexor muscles have begun to involuntarily contract, which they often do. Even with properly placed breakover relative to the tip of P3 (which most heart bar applications miss) the rediction in DDFT tension is minimal compared to using rails. Even FLAT rails, (just something a little taller set inside the edge of the shoe) will help reduce pulling on the sensitive structures in the turns as p3 loads medial laterally. Ease of breakover media lalterally,gives a tremendous amount of relief to the horse when he has to turn. Heart bars do not do that either unless the farier builds them with a taller inner rim. (which nobody bothers to do)
Now some farriers have taken to using impression material under the heart barm which is a good improvement but still not enough improvement in hoof mechanics in my opinion.
As to the EDSS frog support pad as compared to the NB frog support pad, just go to the website and look in the The****utic prodicts section to see the diference. The EDSS pad has a steel ppate imbedded in the toe to screw it down firmly into a threaded hole in the sole relief area of the EDSS shoe, which creates concavity in the pad surface, providing clearance over the tip of P3. As well, the frog support portion is designed different. It has removeable layers of support pieces that can be screwed on the ground surface and stacked up more, or trimmed back, or changed or removed completely as necessary. Patty

[NHFarrier]

Calshoer - Thanks for the information, I learned a lot! I looked up the shoes and for anyone who's interested, the website is http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/lameprod.html . It gives descriptions and ordering information.

Amy

[Ronald Aalders]

Patty,


I forgot to point out what apparently got by you. The point I was making is when P3 is properly derotated (and no penetration or purulent(?) abcesses are present) support on the entire sole appears to be no longer a problem, as long as derotation is correct.

Obviously when the horse gotten very sore in the anterior part of the sole as a result of P3 pushing down, tissue may well have been damaged and will keep the foot tender there for a while. But I found more than once when working on club feet that derotation allows a lame horse to use the foot instantly. Pressure in the anterior part of the foot rarely is a problem (Like I said, on a chronic laminitic horse I won't take any chances, and leave the anterior sole open)

I admire your willingness to promote what seems to work for you, but I was just interested what your and other people thoughts would be on this.


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

Ron

I too cannot pick just one option. But, since you are really twisting my arm here( OUCH!, Now cut that out) I'd have to say that I'd probably go with the EDSS first.

Now, equivicator that I am :D , I've got to say that it would also depend on the cir***stances, timing, etc.

Rick