Is this navicular?

[horsenut]

http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u158/Primapicasso/

these films were taken last spring, we have put the left front in a wedge/ frog support shoe to correct the angles. He is going OK.. but not good enough to show in dressage.. My question is this navicular or something else..?

thanks as always for you time..

[Mike Bailey]

Has all that toe been removed since these films?

[Brian Purrington]

I personaly can't see much from these rads. Maybe someone with more tenure can.

I can see the problem with the left A/P balance and why the wedge..., and I see some M/L balance issues. What does the A/P and M/L balance look like now(on both feet). What is the history on this horse? Describe the way of going about this horse. Could you post some current pics?

[horsenut]

Don't have any current films on him , but will post some pictures of his hoofs tomorrow, he is going to be re shod then.. Yes the toe was taken back a lot since these films were done..
History of him is extensive the right hoof he has a process extensor fracture... 3 year old he slipped out of my trailer and landed on the medal strip/ dead lame.. the surgeon did not see a need to operate.. As a 4 year old he came up lame on his left front.. films taken and I was told an avulsion fracture of the navicular.. Two years later I had the above films done.. was told no significant change from the times before.. .. But with rads like this the surgeon would not be surprised if he was dead lame?

Well he is not .. I don't ride him long to over do.. and he does take a bubble step now and again on the left front , that is the one that seems to be his problem...
....also a mysterious bruise comes up right in the middle of his left hoof every year about one inch by inch.. I would guess where the coffin bone tip is..? It grows out and is fine , then about a year later it appears again.. This is the third year it has come up.. ??

I have him shod every 4 to 5 weeks depending on growth..

Thanks..

[Brian Purrington]

I am really interested to see some current pics of these feet and the horse. Make sure you get close up shots of soles,dorsal, medial and lateral walls. The best way to get them is to actualy set the camera on the ground for the wall shots. Gotta go, be back tonight.

ps A conformation pic of the horse would be helpful too.

[Jaye Perry]

http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u158/Primapicasso/

.... My question is this navicular or something else..?

thanks as always for you time..
Lateral R- articular ringbone in the coffin joint with some sclerosis of the attachment of the extensor tendon.

Skylines- not to disturbing, seen worse

Dorso Ventrals(DV)- looks like some pedal osteoitis and maybe a lateral and media wing cysts; but it maybe the commisures.

[Brian Purrington]

See... I knew you were out there JP. Nice obsevations. Is the ringbone what is causing the shots to look like the foot is out of balance? Or are they these feet turned in:o

I'm like a sponge so dont be afraid so "soak" me with info. I really want to learn.

[Jaye Perry]

See... I knew you were out there JP. Nice obsevations. Is the ringbone what is causing the shots to look like the foot is out of balance? Or are they these feet turned in:o

I'm like a sponge so dont be afraid so "soak" me with info. I really want to learn.
Lack of sole depth is a primary concen. Horses with flexural issues will always have distinct angulation problems. Navicular concerns are minimal here, I would be concerned with the Lateral R and the DVs. Lots of bony changes in the coffin joint and P3s.

[Brian Purrington]

I guess that would explain the bruise in the left that the OP mentioned, but why at yearly intervals? Is the right side suffering due to over compensation of the left? As far as the changes in P3, do you have time to mark it up for an x-ray newbie? :o

[horsenut]

Thanks.. Will take photos today .. I am with Brian, I am a little slow in understanding what I think I should see .. Never was there anything mentioned about ringbone?
Will be back later in the day..

Ann

[horsenut]

All righty, I uploaded before and after he was shod pictures.. I am new at this, so the order is not perfect.. Also added a confirmation shot and a Picture of him moving before the two injuries..

I would like to say that I did not clean out his hoofs when taking the before shots, they appear and were packed with mud etc :(

As you can see on the bruised left hoof, he is actually starting a new line of bruising that was not there 4 1/2 weeks ago.. .. He has bruising on the under side as well I tried to capture a photo of that too..

I talked with my farrier extensively about this horse.. He has been doing this horse now for 4 years.. His left hoof's heel is crushed and rolled under from the wedge pad. We were thinking maybe next time to make him a wedged iron shoe to see if that would help the heel..

He does toe out slightly on the right hoof. .. also that hoof is a buttress shape from the extensor processor fracture...

He is a fabulous horse and well aren't they all ? And I would love to be able to show him a couple more years..

:edited to say, he wears bell boots 24/7 thus the ring around his pasturn..

Any thoughts.. ??

and thanks for taking the time to look..

**oh for that diagram I put in to help me.. !!!!
A: Navicular Bursa
B: Coffin Joint
C: Pastern Joint
D: Fetlock Joint
E: Flexor Tendon Sheath

[Brian Purrington]

Where is your link....?

[Brian Purrington]

I'm gonna' guess you are wondering.... "What's a link" Usualy most pics are too large for the "thread" upload, in that case typicly we use photo bucket by using a freebie account, then loading our pics to an album there. After that you can copy/paste the link (URL) into your post. to do all the pics at once go to the bottom of the album after it is loaded and click "select all", then move your curser up into an open space near the pics and right click. Cilck on properties, then highlight the URL, click copy, then paste it into your post. Does this help?

[Jaye Perry]

Where is your link....?
use the old link

[Brian Purrington]

Duh.... I feel like a horse's a** sorry Ann,
Thanks Jaye for the hint....

[Brian Purrington]

I am a liitle wet behind the ears when it comes to situations like this, but at the expense of my ego I will point out what I see. Maybe Jaye can come back after me and beat the **** out of me for opening my mouth.... :rolleyes:

Firstly , I don't really know what exactly the OP is looking for, A diagnosis, or a way to help her horse go better. I am going to assume the latter. It does not sound as if this horse is lame, but clearly there are some issues.... The provided pics ar really hard to go off, due to the angles and the lack of medial shots, but I think I can point out some things. So here goes.

1) The thing that strikes me most is obviosly the left foot D/P angle but I dont think that is the major issue here. If, as the OP posted, and as I can see, the lateral heel crushed by the wedge, then it is safe to assume that the lateral heel is long. Other indicaters of this are, exfoliated sole depth in the quarters and back, the jamming in the coronary on the lateral view, the medial/toe bruising seen on the sole, and the crack that is developing on the lateral quarter. As for the bruising visible on the dorsal wall, I am clueless... Maybe too much wall has been removed and this is a result, this would be my assumtion. Another possibility is that the right leg is slightly longer than the left and the resulting concussion is driving the coffin bone forward due to the wedge.... which brings me to my second observation

2) My mentor taught me (or tried to) to not be too concerned with angle but to pay close attention to toe length and location of breakover. That being said, his reasoning was that the "club" or upright foot usually was a natural compensation in some way... ie short cannon, short pastern, etc. on that side. Based on that Idea the right foot comes to mind. Thus opposing the thought above that the right leg is longer than the left. However, viewing the lateral views of the both feet, the right foot seems to have the center of articulation slightly further back than the left and also has some jamming above the quarters which would say to me that some consideration needs to be taken when trimming this foot. Without being there, I cannot comment on bony column points to relate them to the feet and the pics do not give me an accurate view.

3) From what I understand, dressage is quite taxing on the horse. I am not by any means an expert or even advanced in my understanding of the dicipline, but here are some thoughts. Young horse, what is his conditioning? From the pic, this horse seems very heavy on the front and not developed enough behind (OP, please don't take offense to this, it is merely my thought) it would stand to reason that if dressage is taxing on a developed horse that is/has been trained to be collected and use his hind end, that an under-developed hind end would create alot of issues for the front end.

4) Setting this horse up....
If this horse was brought to me today, what would I do?
*Trim, paying close attention to the M/L balance and toe length. I would probobly let the horse stand for a while in his stall after trimming to see if any of the lateral jamming would drop out. Then I would finish my trim without touching any sole or wall near the toe if I could avoid it.
* Shoes, Package would include, Aluminum eggbar clipped with appropriate wedge (built into the shoe, not a pad) to create an acceptable D/P medium, (wedges would best be determined by new rads with a vet) Probobly a soft vettec fill, drop to six nails, set the toe back slightly squared with a rolled leading edge paying close attention to the breakover in relation to the point of articulation.
* Hind End, Regular shoeing, perimeter fit, full with some extra caudal support. flat shoe, maybe a st croix eventer plus.

After saying all of this, whether right or wrong, I am not under the horse nor have I seen this horse stand or go. There are so many variables that it would be crazy for me to tell you what to do. I have merely stated observations and given you an accurate description of what I would do. The answer to your original question... I don't know if your horse has navicular, as far as the rest, to include his missteps, this is how I would approach it. I hope this has been helpful, Good luck.

PS OK Jaye I'm ready for my beatin'.... :o

[horsenut]

Wow Brian, Thanks for the long consideration of my horse..

The confirmation shot was taken as a 2 1/2 year old right out of the pasture, So no real conditioning or muscling.. I thought you were wanting to see leg angles :) Now he is almost 8 and much more balanced..

He is sound enough now for lower level dressage, but Like I said above I don't feel comfortable showing him if I know that if the footing is not correct for him he will babble ..

What I do want more then anything is a happy / comfortable horse.. He was my first born and holds a special place in my heart..

Ok Questions.. So from what you see in the photos, ( I can take more if you like ) the shoeing is not a bad job?
Please tell me what D/P means ?
'''''*Trim, paying close attention to the M/L balance and toe length. I would probably let the horse stand for a while in his stall after trimming to see if any of the lateral jamming would drop out. Then I would finish my trim without touching any sole or wall near the toe if I could avoid it.''''''

What do you mean here, how long a stall stay? So in taking back the toe not to trim out any of the live soul of the toe?

So it appears we have the same idea re putting a wedged shoe on him vs. a pad next time.. We did put a 'thin' shoe on him so that the frog on the right side had a chance to hit the ground :)

Farrier and I were discussing possible concussion pads? I am not sure of the name.. they would cush him /protect him .. Then again this is a pad that would keep on crushing the heel..

Thank you so much for taking the time in discussing his shoes.. Funny his full sister has the best looking hoofs around.. and she is much larger / heavier and not as balanced as he.. ! Just the way the cookie crumbles I guess..

Ann

[calshoer]

What were the farrier (and maybe the vet) THINKING leaving all that toe on right foot ?
The shoeing on the RF is the exact opposite of what the foot needs.
In the radiograph of the RF I see several area of stress induced injury. Besides the obvious bone changes on the anterior coffin joint and attachment of extensor there is an enlarged bone in the area of the attachment of the impar ligament and /or DDFT under the navicular bone. According to a lot of the vets I have worked withm this can indicate long term stress at the attachment of the deep flexor tendon and impar ligament under the navicular bone. I bet if the farrier hoof tests over the center of this horses frog he will get a big reaction. And unless the shoeing had drastically changed since those pictures, Im going to bet the horse is stabbing that RF toe into the ground pretty consistantly at a walk.

The long toe on that foot is seriously adding leverage and stresses in all areas of the foot at every step.
That foot needs EASED breakover all around. Toe backed up, rockered or rolled toe shoe, and rolled edges of the shoe for ease of lateral movement. It appears the farrier was attempting to try to make the two feet match in toe legngth and angle.....the WRONG thing to do.
The two feet are never going to match, because one of them is a club foot, and trying to keep a long toe on that club foot is causing it damage due to the added leverage creating internal stress.

I'd have the breakover point set UNDER the tip of the coffin bone in that foot, not a couple inches in front of it. God it hurts to just look at it.
Heres your XRay of the RF. I marked the breakover point a little ahead of the bone,(where I normally put it), but in in treating a lame horse I would have it directly under the tip of the bone ,at least for a while.
The sole in the toe of the foot is stretched ahead of that, dead. You could drive a horseshoe nail through the sole out there in the middle of the toe ahead of the breakover line and not hit anything live. So theres no good reason to shoe to the end of that. All it's doing is causing more problems.
Patty

[Brian Purrington]

Patty,
Just some questions....
*Using the provided pics, and not the rads (they are old) how much toe do you think you could take off?
*Do you think an alum eggbar with a rolled perimeter edge and lightly squared toe would be the right fit here?
*What are your thoughts on addressing the club foot in relation to heel and toe length?
*Finally.... What is up with the bruising?

The questions aren't meant to be confrontational, just looking for a view through another's eyes.....

[Brian Purrington]

Ann,
* Good job/Bad job is subjective within farrier circles. Is it what I would do or to the standard I hold myself? No.
*D/P balance/angle refers to Dorsal (towards the front) and Palmer (towards the rear) balancing and angle.(also referd to as A/P anterior/posteior balance and angle)
*Stall standing... Depends on the horse some times 15 min some times days(without shoes) before you see changes. (Tom B taught me this.)
* Toe back and and not trimming sole, Jaye mentioned the sole depth and from what I can see in your pics, the farrier has the depth at the toe to live sole and not in the heels and quarters. Move the toe back refers to setting the toe of the shoe back further,as Patty indicated in her post. The rads posted (which are old ) showed alot of toe length.
* wedge shoe is my preference wedge pads can do the same job if properly applied. ( note:Some horse don't want wedges...)
* concussion pads, no experience with them, can't comment except to say that it makes sense on a foot sore horse.

Gotta go... hope this helps, be back later tonight.

[horsenut]

Patty, do you feel that the currant shoeing of the right hoof still needs to take more toe off ? Those x rays were taken last year ( with 5 weeks growth) and my farrier addressed the long toe since then.. I will be taking him in for current rads as soon as my filly with the DDFT problem is able to go out of her stall .. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4017

Remember that right hoof is misshaped / buttress becus of the injury.. it really will never look good.. it even feels funny in my hand when I pick it up.. :(

Setting the breakover under the coffin bone on the right hoof..? will that add more articulation of that stressed extensor processor ???

Any ideas what can be causing the bruising on the left hoof?

Thanks as always.. I am forever learning with you all ..

Ann

[calshoer]

Patty, do you feel that the currant shoeing of the right hoof still needs to take more toe off ? The pics in this link looks like a completely different foot (different horse? ) than the one I'm talking about that you linked to earlier in this thread.(and the one in the Xray) The ones you posted in THIS thread are white and was dishy on the dorsal wall....the one you link to here is black and is convex. Whats up?

[calshoer]

Setting the breakover under the coffin bone on the right hoof..? will that add more articulation of that stressed extensor processor ??? No. 1) Because the coffin joint does not flex (it remains in some amount of extension) as the heels lift off whether the toe is long or not, (there is NO hoof capsule rotation required to lift the heels)
2) if the toe is long, the leg pivots more forward over the foot before the heels lift off, the distal end of the P2 probably moves backward in the coffin joint momentarly, thereby crushing the damaged portion of the coffin and fetlock joints more.(And there appears to be a problem in the anterior fetlock..look closely at the radiograph) thereby stressing those fractured/remodelled areas.
There is NO pull on the extensors to lift the heels for breakover.
Preventing eased breakover by addign a long toe is stressing the impar ligament and DDFT attachment, which is likely a lot more of the primary pain problem than the extensor. And will cause navicular bone damage eventually.

[calshoer]

Patty,
Just some questions....
*Using the provided pics, and not the rads (they are old) how much toe do you think you could take off? Every time itried to upload the "after"pic of the lateral view my browser crashed..finally got it. It does look a lot shorter in the toein the true lateral camera view than the one from the oblique AP. I wouldnt take off any more hoofwall or sole. And in this view it actually looks like the farier maybe used sory of a banana shoe? If this IS a flat shoe, (maybe its the camera angle?) , I would change the large toe nails for a smaller headed ones, (to prevent them from grabbing the ground) and roll the toe as shown. The yellow line on the dorsal wall is NOT there to show where to remove hoofwall!
Its just a continuation of the angle of the wall from the coronary band down. which is parallell to the angle of P3. *Do you think an alum eggbar with a rolled perimeter edge and lightly squared toe would be the right fit here? No. I would want a more shallow and gentle rolled toe than a square toe provides. (my drawing is only an example of breakover placement not the actual angle of the roll in the toe)
If a horse needed an egg bar(which I dont see why this one would) I would encorporate frog support. I dont like egg bars in general because they leverage the heels too much and can slap them down too hard. *What are your thoughts on addressing the club foot in relation to heel and toe length? I follow the sole plane of the individual foot, and watch them land at a walk,after ihave trimmed them, adding wedge if they need it to land slightly heel first. *Finally.... What is up with the bruising?I don't see which bruising your seeing?

[Brian Purrington]

What you have depicted/described is basicly what I had in mind, as for the eggbar, I was thinking of soft equipac fill for some support (due to the sole depth and frog concern) and as also thinking that the egg bar (with the appropriate wedge) would get the horse to the next level by allowing me to drop the heels where he can start to grow out under management. As to the "square the toe back" termanoligy(I use this term, probobly to my detriment very loosely). attached is a brought back toe on one of my horses. I was thinking along these lines (not exactly) when using this term. The bruising is evident at the dorsal toe on the left and the medial toe on the sole of same foot.

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t59/wellshodhorses/NB%20comp/th_S4020489.jpg

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer-No. 1) Because the coffin joint does not flex (it remains in some amount of extension) as the heels lift off whether the toe is long or not, (there is NO hoof capsule rotation required to lift the heels)

no the "coffin joint doesn't flex" it is already flexed at the point of breakover; then goes into a state or transition(s) into extension. Guess the viscera-elastic properties of the horn doesn't store energy either:rolleyes: , so we have a "stump" on the end of the leg?

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer-
2) if the toe is long, the leg pivots more forward over the foot before the heels lift off, the distal end of the P2 probably moves backward in the coffin joint momentarly, thereby crushing the damaged portion of the coffin and fetlock joints more.(And there appears to be a problem in the anterior fetlock..look closely at the radiograph) thereby stressing those fractured/remodelled areas.
There is NO pull on the extensors to lift the heels for breakover.

No, the leg(front or thoracic) doesn't pivot forward, it is locked at the carpus by the Carpi Radialus muscle and fascia in/to the proximal insertion at the cannon.
P2 moves into a state of hyperflexion; P3 moves into a position of over dorsiflexion if break point is to long, then there is remolding to the anterior portions of the joints due to excessive lever resistance and the joints are in a state of instability due to overexertion(fatigue) of the of the muscles to recover the stored energy within the elastic structures of the leg and foot.

The RF, in the rads; coffin joint and P3, was due to an injury. Injury to the foot will cause and upright and or "Clubby" appearance in situations.

[horsenut]

The pics in this link looks like a completely different foot (different horse? ) than the one I'm talking about that you linked to earlier in this thread.(and the one in the Xray) The ones you posted in THIS thread are white and was dishy on the dorsal wall....the one you link to here is black and is convex. Whats up?

The Link I had provided in the above Post Patty was just to give info on the DDFT horse we had discussed.. Sorry if I confused you..

Ann

[horsenut]

If this IS a flat shoe, (maybe its the camera angle?) , I would change the large toe nails for a smaller headed ones, (to prevent them from grabbing the ground) and roll the toe as shown. ?

You know Patty I noticed that too when the shoe/ hoof is on the ground.. but no , that is a flat thin shoe? So its the nails that are making it do that? I had asked him before we started on this horse, why the ''before'' photo looked like he was dished.. of course i used the wrong word.. We will change the nails if that will help for sure..

Ann

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer.......
Preventing eased breakover by addign a long toe is stressing the impar ligament and DDFT attachment, which is likely a lot more of the primary pain problem than the extensor. And will cause navicular bone damage eventually.
At that time the rads were taken a good possibilty. The rads show no significant degnerative process, just incidents of thrombosis. Seen worse skylines on 3 year olds that have done nothing.

Let's dismiss the articular bony changes in the RF coffin joints-- nah, no pain:rolleyes:

[calshoer]

No, the leg(front or thoracic) doesn't pivot forward, it is locked at the carpus by the Carpi Radialus muscle and fascia in/to the proximal insertion at the cannon. We are saying the same thing. Yes, the knee is locked, the horses body is moving forwards, so the whole leg pivots over the foot. Locked in extension. Less fancy words, same damn thing. the P2 moves into a state of hyperflexion; P3 moves into a position of over dorsiflexion if break point is to long, then there is remolding to the anterior portions of the joints due to excessive lever resistance and the joints are in a state of instability due to overexertion(fatigue) of the of the muscles to recover the stored energy within the elastic structures of the leg and foot. Yep.
The RF, in the rads; coffin joint and P3, was due to an injury. Injury to the foot will cause and upright and or "Clubby" appearance in situations.Still a club foot in the end, doesnt really matter the itiology that got it that way. Still the same parameters for breakover, so whats your point? Just crabby tonight?

[calshoer]

At that time the rads were taken a good possibilty. The rads show no significant degnerative process, just incidents of thrombosis. Seen worse skylines on 3 year olds that have done nothing.I wasn't talking about the skyline. I didnt show the skyline. I showed(and circled) an abnormally large "bump" on the palmer aspect of P3 at the attachment of the DDFT and impar ligament on the *lateral* rad.
Many of the veterinarians I have worked with on lame horses have found that they are SORE there when palpated with hoof testers, (sometimes palpated with just my thumb) and often have shown to have visible damage to the impar ligament when checked via ultrasound or MRI. (yes ,its possible to ultrasound it)
Let's dismiss the articular bony changes in the RF coffin joints-- nah, no painI Didnt dismiss it. I said its likely the impar ligament is a more primary cause of the currrent pain.
I guess you cant read for content. Patty

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer-We are saying the same thing. Yes, the knee is locked, the horses body is moving forwards, so the whole leg pivots over the foot. Locked in extension.
The leg doesn't pivot. the distal and proximal phalangeal joints flex - the shoulder(to **** it down) goes into extension when the body of the horse goes just past perpendicular of the "locked" leg.





Less fancy words, same damn thing. Yep.
Your the teacher of many open minds, proper terminology should be on your syllabus. Hell, I am just an ole country horseshoer:rolleyes: :cool:


Still a club foot in the end, doesnt really matter the itiology that got it that way.
If one doesn't know etiology of the form presented; one is just shoeing horses not farriering the horse.


Still the same parameters for breakover, so whats your point? Just crabby tonight?
Really? If one doesn't know the etiology of the foot presented then parameters are skewed, certain pathologies require certain parameters, not just basic hyperbole.
not crabby, just hanging out on a Sunday.

[Jaye Perry]

.....(yes ,its possible to ultrasound it)
I Didnt dismiss it. I said its likely the impar ligament is a more primary cause of the currrent pain.
I guess you cant read for content. Patty

Guess the bone cysts or holes in the P3s have no importance either?

Obscure ligament problems can be painful, but there is to much and to many other pathologies to narrow down on one distinct ligament.

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye couple of questions on that right front foot.

I see the bony changes in the coffin joint (ring bone).

What is the gas pocket in the back of the foot? It also looks like it continues along under P3.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/9.jpg


The picture of the most recent shoeing. Is that puffy area high ring bone? No signe of this in the X-rays a year ago.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/DSC00948.jpg

[horsenut]

Phil, I could be wrong , but i think the one circle you refer to as Ringbone is the fractured extensor processor.. ???
This horse wears bell boots 24/ 7 thus the ring around his pasturn.. BUT I can feel on both hoofs a slight bump in that red ring you put in above the heel area.. You can almost see it raised a little more then the rest....
Why wouldn't the vets and surgeon not mention ring bone to me.. This is the 3rd set of x rays taken on this horse.. And i will be taking more in the next month or so ..

Thanks again.. Is there a vocabulary / dictionary i can refer to??

Ann

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage-couple of questions on that right front foot.

I see the bony changes in the coffin joint (ring bone).


Due to injury



What is the gas pocket in the back of the foot? It also looks like it continues along under P3.
No, lack of sole depth in caudal portion of foot, also pedal osteoitis, fuzzy feather looking solar portion of p3


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/9.jpg


The picture of the most recent shoeing. Is that puffy area high ring bone? No signe of this in the X-rays a year ago.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/DSC00948.jpg[/QUOTE]
The Elkin digital is not as good as the Idexx digital x-ray developer, most all indenties are "Blurred". Here is an Idexx rad:

[Brian Purrington]

(from the back of the class room he yells out)

So let me see if I have this in "****ed down" terms.... The OP's original post drew attention to the LF, the angle, the bruising in it and the "bubble step" that the horse was taking on it. While it does have some issues, it is not the problem here? The right foot which looks to be a club foot was possibly not a club foot before the injury? The sole depth is poor on the RF which is a concern in the correction of the clubbiness? The LF needs some general changes as mentioned in earlier posts and the bruising on the dorsal wall is still a question. I am still a "baby" when it comes to the intricate terminology of both Jaye and Patty, but what I think I am hearing here is that, this is a "rest of the life" management situation for this horse due to the bony changes and the injury to the RF. The management at this point would include as I posted earlier, new rads to determine the current extent of bony changes and the proper angle of P3 due to the injury and the resulting changes.
Am I getting warmer........?

Also still would like to at least have some idea of what the bruising on the LF dorsal wall is.

[Phil Armitage]

(from the back of the class room he yells out)

So let me see if I have this in "****ed down" terms.... The OP's original post drew attention to the LF, the angle, the bruising in it and the "bubble step" that the horse was taking on it. While it does have some issues, it is not the problem here? The right foot which looks to be a club foot was possibly not a club foot before the injury? The sole depth is poor on the RF which is a concern in the correction of the clubbiness? The LF needs some general changes as mentioned in earlier posts and the bruising on the dorsal wall is still a question. I am still a "baby" when it comes to the intricate terminology of both Jaye and Patty, but what I think I am hearing here is that, this is a "rest of the life" management situation for this horse due to the bony changes and the injury to the RF. The management at this point would include as I posted earlier, new rads to determine the current extent of bony changes and the proper angle of P3 due to the injury and the resulting changes.
Am I getting warmer........?

Also still would like to at least have some idea of what the bruising on the LF dorsal wall is.

I think you got it. If I were shoeing this horse I would be focused on protecting the bottom of P3 and cir***flex artery sole depth and over all depth of hoof.

[horsenut]

Brian, May I sit next to you in the front of the class? I can't see the board back there.. :(

Thank you for trying to clarify what I have been struggling to read here..

Yes, his right front was NOT clubby till the injury... as time progress his foot started to change shape * buttress* due to the swelling around that injury..
I do believe this IS a life time management issue.. which I will gladly take on after all he is my first born and true love.. :)
I realize as soon as I would get the left front hoof feeling better he will manifest the right front hoof being sore.. that was shown when we first start blocking him , once one hoof was completely blocked.. ''OUCH , now i can concentrate on the other sore hoof , gee thanks '' my horse shouts out..

Ok.. Don't think i will be able to get him in for more x rays before the next shoeing.. 4 weeks.. should i put pads on with frog support then.. ?

No clue on that bruising then .. I know my farrier just pulls his cap off and scratches his head and says.. '' Ann I just don't know .. this horse makes me think to hard''

Ann

[Brian Purrington]

Been "thunkin" alot about the bruising.... I see "why" the bruising at the medial toe on the sole, could be the lateral heel being a little long.... The dorsal wall bruising does not seem to be connected, (going by location at the sole and visual location on the dorsal wall) if you go by hoof growth rate that bruising was "caused" 4 or 5 months ago. So lets think in those terms. First, does this happen every year? (I think you said it does) Based on that, what happened in September or "Octoberish" last year? weather changes, feed changes, work changes, etc. that has also happened consistantly every year that the bruising has presented itself? It would stand to reason that if the location of P3 was causing this "bruise" that it would always be there. Let me know what you think.

As for what to do until you get rads, that has to be determined by your farrier his capabilities and knowledge. I have a horse on my "book" that is very simlar in the front, true "clubbie" on the right and slow angle on the left. He is sound and I had only shod him "correctly" not correctively. This past summer he went into training and the owner insited on aluminum shoes, I almost immediatly saw a change in him that I didn't like. I started playing with wedging on the the left which helped him. Unfortunately the owner's vet told her to have the wedge removed he didn't want it there. On the next shoeing I pulled his toe back (on the shoe) a little further than on the left and this seemed to help. About four weeks after that shoeing I got a call from the owner's vet telling me to go back next time and "perimeter" fit the horse. This went on until I finally was able to face to face discuss the horse with the vet, explain my perception of what was going on and get his as well. We finally agreed that for whatever reason the horse did not do well in aluminum shoes. This case is not exactly like yours, but you can see from this description that there are alot of variables when trying to "dial a horse in"
This is why a good relationship between Farrier and Vet is so important and also why It would be remiss of me to tell you what to do. The horse is now back in steel shoes and will continue to be.

Maybe a more tenured farrier would feel differently about giving you a direction to go... I am anxious to see.

[Appassionato]

The Elkin digital is not as good as the Idexx digital x-ray developer, most all indenties are "Blurred". Here is an Idexx rad:
I know that foot! :D

Good to know, your ordinary horse owner like myself doesn't know the differences between digital x-rays avaiable. Cool stuff! :cool:

[horsenut]

Brain and all .. I have always thought it was the weather that might be contributing to the bruise .. we go into very wet conditions.. he stays out 24/7 as stall life he is unhappy.. I do have him in a 3 sided shed on rubber mats with gravel under them.. so he has a dry place to stand.. The feed and supplements all stay the same..
So maybe with the wet conditions / his hoofs are softer that is the cause.. but there is not trauma other wise..

Looks like I will get him in after the next shoeing , for more current x rays.. .. I hope the same will be said once again... ''' no noticeable change'' I take that as a good sign....

Thanks again..

Ann

[Jaye Perry]

Brian, May I sit next to you in the front of the class? I can't see the board back there.. :(

Thank you for trying to clarify what I have been struggling to read here..

Yes, his right front was NOT clubby till the injury... as time progress his foot started to change shape * buttress* due to the swelling around that injury..
I do believe this IS a life time management issue.. which I will gladly take on after all he is my first born and true love.. :)
I realize as soon as I would get the left front hoof feeling better he will manifest the right front hoof being sore.. that was shown when we first start blocking him , once one hoof was completely blocked.. ''OUCH , now i can concentrate on the other sore hoof , gee thanks '' my horse shouts out..

Ok.. Don't think i will be able to get him in for more x rays before the next shoeing.. 4 weeks.. should i put pads on with frog support then.. ?

No clue on that bruising then .. I know my farrier just pulls his cap off and scratches his head and says.. '' Ann I just don't know .. this horse makes me think to hard''

Ann
The words are not that hard to deciefer- most anatomical words are reference of where they are, where they start and what they do:

Carpi- Knee
Radialus- origination on the radius bone

Bicep- 2 muscle heads
Femoris- origination on the femur

Tarsus- legs in humans, hocks down on horse

Easy if ya think about it- a good medical dictionary can help also

[J.H. shoeing]

I reconize that rad also. :D

how is the "Ol boy"?

[Appassionato]

I reconize that rad also. :D

how is the "Ol boy"?
Doing great! I'm so excited, he can turn laterally on those feets now. :D

[calshoer]

Jaye. This IS one of the farriers helping horse owners" boards.
Not an anatomy class. Im not trying to impress with technical terms, and since horse OWNERS read and post on this board, they shouldnt need a medical dictionary to understand the point. This is what I meant when I say the leg 'rotates' (or 'pivots) over the foot. Nuff said.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

Jaye. This IS one of the farriers helping horse owners" boards.
Not an anatomy class. Im not trying to impress with technical terms, and since horse OWNERS read and post on this board, they shouldnt need a medical dictionary to understand the point.

I most respectfully disagree. ****ing one's posts down because one assumes the reader is too damn **** to understand the correct terminology is condescending at best; insulting at worst.

This is what Imrant when I say the leg 'rotates' (or 'pivots) over the foot. Nuff said.

Triage time. As I see it, the new bone on the articulating surface of the DIPJ just aft of the extensor process is going to cause the steed to shorten the anterior phase of his stride and go toe-down-first because "normal" movement is gonna hurt like hell. I think the first order of business would be to lessen the articulation of joint, then worry about the rest of the stuff.

[Jaye Perry]

Tom Stovall, CJF]calshoer in gray

Jaye. This IS one of the farriers helping horse owners" boards.
Not an anatomy class. Im not trying to impress with technical terms, and since horse OWNERS read and post on this board, they shouldnt need a medical dictionary to understand the point.

I most respectfully disagree. ****ing one's posts down because one assumes the reader is too damn **** to understand the correct terminology is condescending at best; insulting at worst.

I agree- do we keep being the interpeters for the vets or we educate the owners in proper terminology? Patty your reply has the smell of Phil- "All Knowing and All Seeing" , let's treat owners like mushroom- "Keep 'em in the Dark and feed them ^^it!"






This is what Imrant when I say the leg 'rotates' (or 'pivots) over the foot. Nuff said.

....

The "locked leg is leveraged due to the inertia of forward movement in which phalangeal joints and Scapula-Humeral joint "Turn". Joints are the Pivot point(s)
Pivot- indentiy in which shaft "Turns".

[calshoer]

Well boys, given the number of private PM's I get *thanking me* for being so CLEAR in the explanations I offer here, I am going to stick to the simpler terms when discussing things for horse owners. :D

[calshoer]

Tom said: I think the first order of business would be to lessen the articulation of joint, then worry about the rest of the stuff.
I had already said: The long toe on that foot is seriously adding leverage and stresses in all areas of the foot at every step.
That foot needs EASED breakover all around. Toe backed up, rockered or rolled toe shoe, and rolled edges of the shoe for ease of lateral movement. I guess Tom doesn't bother to read before he posts. Patty

[Brian Purrington]

Are my posts invisible.......?

Just wondering :rolleyes:

[calshoer]

No Brian your posts REnot invisible. except maybe to Tom who so delights in picking on me just for fun that he ignored yours....

Im not concerned about the bruise in the dorsal wall of the LF. Looks like a typical "banged the foot on something" kind of bruise.
The left front in fact looks to be in pretty good form overall but since he is still having some issues with it I would re-evaluate internal bone alignment and balance. Just before the next shoeing, get some fresh A-P and lateral radiographs with the shoe on the foot. That will give the farrier a current "map" for the reshoeing to balance everything in the trim and place the breakover of the shoe close to a spot under the tip of the coffin bone.
I would use a shoe with a bit more breakover all around, like a St Croix eventer with a rockered toe.

Its the right front that I feel is a bigger issue, and the horse told you that it was a problem when he was blocked out the left.

Patty

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray, my old stuff in brown

I think the first order of business would be to lessen the articulation of joint, then worry about the rest of the stuff

I had already said: I guess Tom doesn't bother to read before he posts.

The long toe on that foot is seriously adding leverage and stresses in all areas of the foot at every step. That foot needs EASED breakover all around.

You wrote "eased breakover"; I wrote, "lessen the articulation of the joint." There's a difference. The single most effective means of reducing the articulation of the DIPJ is to wedge the hell outa the heel: Did I miss your suggestion to do so? If so, I certainly apologize because all I read were suggestions that would get the foot turned over a bit sooner, but none that would be particularly effective in significantly reducing the articulation of the joint.

This ain't Kansas, Toto. :)

[Jaye Perry]

Well boys, given the number of private PM's I get *thanking me* for being so CLEAR in the explanations I offer here, I am going to stick to the simpler terms when discussing things for horse owners. :D
Hip-Hip-Hurrah!!

Well mon cheri', given then number of e-mails cussing me up one side and down the for being blunt and to the point- guess that gives the cosmos equilibrium:cool:

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer- Brian ......... Im not concerned about the bruise in the dorsal wall of the LF. Looks like a typical "banged the foot on something" kind of bruise.
The left front in fact looks to be in pretty good form overall but since he is still having some issues with it I would re-evaluate internal bone alignment and balance.....
Brian I am concerned for the left fore and it ain't in the balance, it is P3 itself. The medial toe and toe quarter has bone loss, lateral wing ,IMO, has a cyst, medial navicular ligament issue(maybe-dirt in commisure?) and pot marks in the center-all pointed out in white. Again, if the horse is x-rayed again try and find a vet that uses the Idexx machine.

[Jaye Perry]

calshoer- Brian ....
Im not concerned about the bruise in the dorsal wall of the LF. Looks like a typical "banged the foot on something" kind of bruise.
Brian guess the first whack on the wall was a doozy(distal), big and apparent. The second whack(proximal) was not so big a doozy. Looks like a couple months apart- could that be a couple shoeing cycles apart where the foot was trimmed a little short the first time and not so short the second time? Nah that's to easy, bone loss and a thin sole, never happens:rolleyes:
Kinda funny the bruising sets in the medial toe of the LF, is the horse staying of the lateral wing , IMO ,cyst or trimmed to short and irritating the pedal osteitis in the medial toe of P3? Or staying off one of those obscure medial navicular ligament?
Again lots of, IMO, pathology just in P3 of the LF to say a good balance job would suffice.

[Brian Purrington]

Thanks, I was beginning to get a complex.... I didn't notice the second bruise, but there it is. I was going off the OP'S first post which indicated that this bruise came annually on it's own. As far as breakver all around, I pretty much use eventers all the time, I did also suggest new x-rays for the attending farrier for help in locating angle and correct location of P3, along with appropriate wedges. I guess the egg bars were not in anyone else's tool bag on this one. I would have tried some KB's which have a nice rolled perimeter and I would have ground the toe out along with bumping it back. As far as wedges, I would have liked to see them in the shoe, then if the frog was lower that the heels I could grind out a spot in the shoe so as not to cause atrophe to the rear of the frog. I would have meshed and fiiled with equipac soft to allow for some "comfortable" contact. I suppose that an open heel would have worked, but this is where I would have started. Was I that far off?

[calshoer]

Tom, easing breakover DOES reduce the articultion of the joint. Geesh. Patty

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

Tom, easing breakover DOES reduce the articultion of the joint. Geesh. Patty

Yes'm, but it's a matter of degree. Whacking off the toe and setting the shoe under eases breakover; whacking off the toe, setting the shoe under and adding a couple of wedge pads significantly reduces the articulation of the joint. I'm not much on half-arsed measures when a horse is hurting, I'm into "significant.

[Chloesmom]

Patty, thanks for keeping it simple, I can keep up that way.

I also appreciate those of you who are using terminology that I admittedly don't understand. The more I read it, the more I come to understand it. Maybe some year... In the meantime, without people like Patty putting it in laymans terms, I couldn't follow these conversations at all.

:)

[Jaye Perry]

Patty, thanks for keeping it simple, I can keep up that way.

I also appreciate those of you who are using terminology that I admittedly don't understand. The more I read it, the more I come to understand it. Maybe some year... In the meantime, without people like Patty putting it in laymans terms, I couldn't follow these conversations at all.

:)
Why don't you buy a dictionary and educate yourself as a horse owner? Reliance on other people; one becomes co-dependant and doesn't see or read the world as it is or as it could be:cool:

[Chloesmom]

Well thank you for the suggestion! Maybe I'll learn to be a doctor and an attorney too... in my spare time, cause God knows I don't understand everything they say either. Sheesh! Codependant? Is that what you call your clients?

In case you missed it, that was a compliment aimed at you as well as Patty.

[Jaye Perry]

Chloesmom-Well thank you for the suggestion! Maybe I'll learn to be a doctor and an attorney too... in my spare time, cause God knows I don't understand everything they say either. Sheesh! Codependant? Is that what you call your clients?In some cases. Nobody said you had to change careers- just increase your knowledge and vocabulary. It's called the word of the day - find a new word everyday and expand one's communication skills.


In case you missed it, that was a compliment aimed at you as well as Patty.
I didn't miss it, didn't want it. Wanted you as a horse owner to become more versed and aware in what some terminologies mean- guess reading magazines , horse periodicals and internet gives one all the answers.:rolleyes:

[Chloesmom]

Wanted you as a horse owner to become more versed and aware in what some terminologies mean-

Well gee! I guess you ARE getting what you want then! I'm becoming more versed everyday! I still love Patty though, cause it only comes a little at a time, ya know? I'm a horse owner, not a farrier, and there's a lot of other things competing for my immediate attention. Must be nice to know it all though... I hope I'm just like you some day. :rolleyes:

[Gary Hill]

Jaye, we ain't never a goin figure them women out! The damn manual that came with my bride is already out of date!? Anyway unfortunately alot of us do not have Vets that communicate so good either? I guess that to the lay person it is simpler to explain things in a differant way so they can understand? Heck, I keep my dictionary next to my puter and make sure I spell correctly and I need a thesasaurs for Tom S. and you ! I do admire your abilities from just reading your posts! Best, Gary

[Chloesmom]

ROTF! Gary, just ask your wife to give it to you in layman's terms!

[Jaye Perry]

Chloesmom.... I'm a horse owner, not a farrier, and there's a lot of other things competing for my immediate attention. Must be nice to know it all though... I hope I'm just like you some day. :rolleyes:

Just one word a day keeps one from obtaining the of idiom of their hobby.:cool:

[Jaye Perry]

Gary Hill-Jaye, we ain't never a goin figure them women out! The damn manual that came with my bride is already out of date!?
Been making payments on mine for so long the warranty has expired.






Anyway unfortunately alot of us do not have Vets that communicate so good either? I guess that to the lay person it is simpler to explain things in a differant way so they can understand? Heck, I keep my dictionary next to my puter and make sure I spell correctly and I need a thesasaurs for Tom S. and you ! I do admire your abilities from just reading your posts! Best, Gary.

Communication is the key: the ability to "eat cheese and crackers on the back porch or pheasant under glass" - Bear Bryant; gives one diverse skills to interact with society.
BTW, one of the most viewed texts for the farrier is Adam's Lameness in Horses, it takes a dictionary. Most periodicals and magazines for horse owners are written on an 8th grade reading level. :rolleyes:

[Jaye Perry]

ROTF! Gary, just ask your wife to give it to you in layman's terms!
My wife and I have been married so long that WE really enjoy the hallway interludes. WE meet each other in the hallway of the house and start with sweet nuiances such as "--ckU"-NO, --ckU" and a passionate finger wave:p

[Rick Burten]

My wife and I have been married so long that WE really enjoy the hallway interludes. WE meet each other in the hallway of the house and start with sweet nuiances such as "--ckU"-NO, --ckU" and a passionate finger wave:p
Huh, you too! :o

Rick

[Gary Hill]

Jaye you are a Romantic! Having all that Hall s e x will wear ya out! :p

Adams book is right next to the dictionary by my puter. :D

[calshoer]

You wrote "eased breakover"; I wrote, "lessen the articulation of the joint." There's a difference. The single most effective means of reducing the articulation of the DIPJ is to wedge the hell outa the heel: Did I miss your suggestion to do so? If so, I certainly apologize because all I read were suggestions that would get the foot turned over a bit sooner, but none that would be particularly effective in significantly reducing the articulation of the joint.

This ain't Kansas, Toto. Tom, you aparently did miss post #24: I follow the sole plane of the individual foot, and watch them land at a walk,after ihave trimmed them, adding wedge if they need it to land slightly heel first. And it might take a lot of wedge to get a comfortable movementand landing on that foot. Thats why I didnt say how MUCH wedge. I take a lot of time 'tinkering' and testing various set ups when I shoe one like this, adding and taking off bits of the package to find the most comfortable adjustment for that individual.
You MIGHT get him comfortable with added wedge, but then again there is so much pathology here in various areas of the foot that easing stress in one area with a wedge may end up exacerbating pain in another, so the optimal package is not something cut and dried.
Patty

[calshoer]

Also in my experience some horses with extensor process pathologies do NOT like a wedge beyond the normal hoof pastern alignment , if it adds any pull to the extensor tendon. That is why I do a lot of tinkering (taping or screwing on various wedges and such) before I finalize the application of the shoeing package.
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Word of the Day
Friday February 23, 2007

lapidary \LAP-uh-dair-ee\, adjective:
1. Of or pertaining to the art of cutting stones or engraving on them.
2. Engraved in stone.
3. Of or pertaining to the refined or terse style associated with inscriptions on monumental stone.

noun:
1. One who cuts, polishes, and engraves precious stones.
2. A dealer in precious stones.

Here, disgusted by venality and intrigue, the retired courtier would come to compose lapidary maxims and wise but sympathetic letters to ardent youth.
-- Michael Foley, Getting Used to Not Being Remarkable

If I asked how long it took to simmer the meat sauce, Emilia would answer with a grumble and her usual lapidary phrase: "Quanto basta. As long as it takes."
-- Patrizia Chen, Rosemary and Bitter Oranges

The settings for Jim Crace's fiction are always evoked with superb, lapidary precision.
-- Caroline Moore, "The timid Don Juan", Sunday Telegraph, August 31, 2003

Nor is he dismissive of the benefits of modern technology; but a constant theme, like a mounting basso continuo in his story, is the destructive modern emergence of "the cult of the quantitative method known as scientism, physicalism, and reductionism," leading to what C. S. Lewis called in a lapidary phrase "the abolition of man."
-- M. D. Aeschliman, "Faithful Reason", National Review, September 16, 2002

These writers have long and eloquently regretted the latter's lapsed reputation and the unavailability (until now) of his work, pointing to his plain, unobtrusive prose and to his bleak take on life (traits that can be traced, in their view, to Hemingway's lapidary sentences and to his Lost Generation pessimism).
-- Lee Siegel, "The Easter Parade", Harper's Magazine, July 2001

is from Latin lapidarius, "pertaining to stone," from lapis, lapid-, "stone."

[Phil Armitage]

Patty, thanks for keeping it simple, I can keep up that way.

I also appreciate those of you who are using terminology that I admittedly don't understand. The more I read it, the more I come to understand it. Maybe some year... In the meantime, without people like Patty putting it in laymans terms, I couldn't follow these conversations at all.

:)

Here is a good link for reference. http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/essays/essaysindex.htm

[Phil Armitage]

The word navicular is a latin word that means the shape of a boat. Since Tom S. likes to reference the dead Greek a lot when it comes to horses we should call this bone the scaphoid, greek word meaning the shape of a boat.

From now on we should reference any paine in the back of the foot as scaphoid syndrome.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

calshoer in gray

Tom, you aparently did miss post #24: And it might take a lot of wedge to get a comfortable movementand landing on that foot. Thats why I didnt say how MUCH wedge. I take a lot of time 'tinkering' and testing various set ups when I shoe one like this, adding and taking off bits of the package to find the most comfortable adjustment for that individual.
You MIGHT get him comfortable with added wedge, but then again there is so much pathology here in various areas of the foot that easing stress in one area with a wedge may end up exacerbating pain in another, so the optimal package is not something cut and dried.

I apologize for missing your post suggesting a wedge.

IME, other than fractures and abscesses, DIPJ articular ringbone is about as painful as it gets, hence my suggestion for triage and addressing the pathology that's likely the most painful. Again, IME, the more articulation is reduced, the less pain the horse endures, which is why I'm an advocate of fixing what's broke and not piddling around with half-arsed measures in an effort to "fine tune" the fix. Wedges are one way of doing it, but a drop bar fabricated by welding a piece of 3/4" pipe across the heels of a keg shoe is a quick and dirty fix that immediately and effectively reduces the articulation of the DIPJ and is about as effective as it gets in terms of reducing pain - but it does makes 'em go kinda funny. :)

[Chloesmom]

Thanks for the link Phil! It's right up my alley - an 8th grade reading level!

Seriously, all joking aside, I do love the word a day suggestion. I think I will take Jaye up on it. First definition on the list... "passionate finger wave". I need to find out what that is, just in case my husband and I are missing out on some sort of romantic foreplay.

[Phil Armitage]

Thanks for the link Phil! It's right up my alley - an 8th grade reading level!

Seriously, all joking aside, I do love the word a day suggestion. I think I will take Jaye up on it. First definition on the list... "passionate finger wave". I need to find out what that is, just in case my husband and I are missing out on some sort of romantic foreplay.

LOL, that link is right up my ally also. :)

Passionate finger wave, I think Jaye's is saying his wife flips him the bird. He probably lectures her on learning new words everyday.

I usually get told to shut "F" up, after I have gone over the time limit discussing horses. :D

That's why I come on here, so I can talk to people with a common interest.

This is where I met my buddy Jaye and we have been good friends ever since.

[Chloesmom]

He probably lectures her on learning new words everyday.

LOL! I can hear it now!

Wife: " _uck you."

Jaye: "Learn a new word."

Wife: "!@#$%!!!"

Jaye: "What?"

Wife: "Look it up."


Such is the beauty of marraige!