T- square (the one used to make shure the hoof is level)

[Grulla Girl]

Hi,

I am new to the world of farrier work, I just graduated from farrier school, and I am not real happy with my triming abalities at this time. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where to get a T- square or if they have to be hand made?


Thanks for your help,
Grulla Girl

[Phil Armitage]

forget the T-Sqaure. You need to ride with a good farrier and learn how to trim to the sole plane. Trim to the sole and you will get it right every time. I still dangle the hoof loosely and sight it by getting my head directly over the foot, this helps me see if the foot is flat.

[David J Nicholls]

If you have trimming concernes, purchase a trimming DVD or video from EDSS. Gene Ovnicek has simplified the confusing subject of trimming using the functional sole as a reliable guide. Despite my 35 years of trimming experience, I found this DVD a must have! This is the first easy to understand information on such a difficult subject. I used a "T square" for some time and it just confused me further by producing consistantly poor results and even making some horses lame, in an attempt to establish lateral/medial foot balance. Good luck in your farriery.
kindest regards, David.

[Bradley-Meadows Edge]

If you need a T Square tool, any welding shop can make you one. Or if you use your rasp and hold it on the two heels, you can tip it higher on one or the other to bring it into 90' of the leg. The leg should be viewed in a naturally hanging position, somewhat under the horse (for the front), never pulling it out handy for you to see better. Lots of practice, and looking at the level after you've put the foot down on the ground, (from the top side) can help you see, while resting for a moment. I find that after I have put the foot down for a minute, letting the blood drain from my head, and then re-looking can help a lot. Especially when I first started, and working with difficult horses.
Bradley-Meadows Edge

[calshoer]

Throw Tsquares away. They are dangerous to the horse because their use creates more confusion, contradiction and ends up UNbalancing more feet from their natural (and optimal) medial lateral plane than you could imagine.
Coffin bones are not always symmetrical, and feet sometimes do not sit at a right angle to the limb in the air and and will not land flat, because pastern bones are often not symmetrical. (I have seen too many Xrays proving this.) When the foot is lifted off the ground in those, the plane of the bottom of the foot will NOT,( and SHOULD not) be at a right angle to the canon bone. Making the wall out of balance from the sole plane then unevenly loads all the distal joints whe nthe horse is loading the leg. . It is simple. A foot wears off to the sole when given the chance, so just trim to the sole.
No contradictions or confusion about "which side to trim" if you just follow the foot itself.
Patty .

[T.N. Trosin]

I was going to say something but I'm just so disapointed :mad: with you guys.

[Red Amor]

Well Im buggered if I can see why youd be dissapointed Dinomite
so if you could explain yourself for me , thanks mate

[Phil Armitage]

I was going to say something but I'm just so disapointed :mad: with you guys.

You were going to say something but your so disapointed and mad with us??

Why?

[T.N. Trosin]

I'll try to keep it short:
What part of "I'm new" Did you miss? I'm not so hot at you Phil except that triming to the sole is great if you know how to do it. Your right she should work for somebody.
I'm more disapointed with Patty and David, a T-square is less dangorous in green hands than the EDDS system and Patty for sure knows that (if its the same patty I know).
So when I went through and read this stuff, It just P***ed me off. :mad:

[Bill Adams]

So its better to learn to do it wrong with a T square, than to learn to do it right? Use that square and get some blood because you don't know how tell that you're way out of line with the solar plane of P-3 (guess how I know that's posible to do).
What other areas of this field should we have beginers do wrong, then have them work corectly when they're 'ready'?
How about not triming any horses at all till you know what a Tsquare is and then maybe even have an opinion on it's positive or negitve effects.
This goes with the other thread about apperenticeship, people are starting too soon, too green, like I did.
Bill

[Phil Armitage]

Hi T.N., I think I get it now. Your saying we should not lightly recommend to new farriers, that they could learn how to trim by purchasing and watching a DVD or Vidio. I totaly agree with you, however recommending using a T-Sqaure is also wrong. The proper way to trim feet is to trim to conformation and to figure out what it OK to remove and leave. A new Farrier has to learn balance, what is live sole and what is dead sole, how much frog should you trim how much should you leave. How much heel and toe needs to come off how much should stay on. The best educational material that I have seen to date is the Natural Balance Vidieos. Personaly I hate the T Square method, I have seen more feet trimmed out of balance by this method than I care to mention, even by veteran Farriers. I think the best way to learn it properly is by riding with a good Farrier, reading all the books you can and watching good educational DVDs and Videos. My favorite to date is the Natural Balance series. Gene Ovineck has done a great job explaining how to trim and also does a great job explaining anatomy. I believe the AFA could take some lessons from Gene/NB as to how to properly teach Anatomy and Balance. I have seen some pretty shabby clinics on Anatomy done by CJF, that frankly was imbarrasing.

[calshoer]

Tom, the farrier instructors at the two NB based schools I know who have taught beginners both ways, (previously using the guages and squares vs now going right to the sole plane ) will attest that their beginners are far safer and a LOT more accurate in balancing the bone column when they learn to use the sole right off the bat. .
Geesh it is not hard to learn to exfoliate the chalky stuff, stop at the shiny stuff and then just trim the wall to there on both sides. Really takes the guersswork out of it especially in crooked feet. Some of those students are better at balancing feet at four weeks into school than most who are a couple of years out using sighting down the leg and T-squares. Patty

[T.N. Trosin]

This is the last thing I’m going to say about this.
The point was that this person is NEW and has no business, with nothing. Trimming to the sole, a t-square nothing and that was my whole point.
Phil was the only one who had the right advice. Go work for sombody. But he had to ruin it by saying trimming to the sole is best.
I disagree with you guys. I love my T-square and will keep it in my truck until quit or croak. But, like NBS shoeing I know when and how to use it.
And as patty knows I don't turn a blind eye to anything, neither should guys

[David J Nicholls]

Hello T.N. Trosin,
What are you dissapointed about? I know you are new into the world of farriery, thus I tried to pass on some of the knoledge a lifetime in the industry has taught me and with the best intentions in mind. In ANY industry you would find someone to teach you how and when to use a particular tool or technique. All Patty and I did was to pass on our experiences with using a"T" square. As I explaineed, I used and evaluated the use of the "T" square, this was for a period of several years, (a tool that is used in our training system here in the UK). I personally found that its use can be missleading and produced unreliable results, when compared with other more up to date ideas. Let me explain, before you hate me more than you already do.
If you trim the left fore foot to the "T" square reading, then go to the right fore foot and trim that using the same principles. Now return back to the left fore foot and re-apply the "T" square. Most readings have the hoof high on the lateral (outside) of the foot. You trimmed that excessive foot from the lateral side. I bet when you reapply the "T" square again, you will find the foot is back high on the side you removed the excessive foot from. How does that happen, when you have aready removed all the excessive foot from that side? Now you do not have any further foot to remove so how do you proceed?
The distal phalanx (pedal bone) will always try to become flat to the ground on its solar surface (in a lateral/medial plane) this is a proven medical fact! Thus when you trim one side of the foot to a greater depth towards the distal phalanx than the other, the distal phalanx will compensate and the hoof will distort so the distal phalanx becomes flat to the ground in a lateral/medial plane again. Thus when you re-apply the "T" square again the foot is back high on the side you removed all the hoof wall from.
I know this is difficult to both describe and understand with out personally seeing it, but I hope you will understand that my intention was not to **** you off, rather, to move you in the direction of something I know is easier to understand, simpler to use and has produced consistantly good reliable results. (Natural Balance trimming not EDSS)
I am sure as time passes there will be further research and a better understanding of the needs of the equine digit. The "T" square was a stepping stone in that process of understanding, playing an important role in the process of evololution in farriery. I feel it has served as a guide but now we must move on again.
I wish you good luck in your future farriery.
Kindest regards,
David J Nicholls.

[Phil Armitage]

Trimming to the sole is best, it is easier, it is less confuseing, it is common sense. Keep an eye on the Shearing and Jamming thread, I think you will see why trimming to the sole achieves balance and what causes alot of hoof problems.

[T.N. Trosin]

Dave:
I know you don’t know who I am or what I have done in and for this industry in my own way, so I’m not going to spout off my credentials. I will say this thought from the way you talk; I probably have a better comprehension of the natural balance system than you do. In the future, you should ask and not guess as to time one has spent in a certain industry.
P.S. I’ll tell you the same thing as I tell people who don’t believe in natural balance: Before you cuss something you should learn to use it right

[T.N. Trosin]

Trimming to the sole is best, it is easier, it is less confuseing, it is common sense. Keep an eye on the Shearing and Jamming thread, I think you will see why trimming to the sole achieves balance and what causes alot of hoof problems.
I would like to have a nickle for every horse I've gotten that was trimmed strictly to the sole that had a big ol toe quarter jam or heel sheer. I'll keep an eye on the the thread. But I'll say this here there are more horses messed up when a person pays more attention to the bottom of a horses foot and not to the whole package.

[calshoer]

Tom, whoa. easy boy.
It is apparant that David just mistook who was the original post (the beginner farrier) on this thread. That happens occasionally when the threads get long and strung out. I will personaly vouch that you are an experienced and a darn good farrier.
FYI, I know David Nicholls personally, he is the LEADING expert in the UK on natural balance . He was instrumental in presenting NB to the Worshipful Company of Farriers and working with them in gathering the sciences behind it so they could decide whether to approve NB for inclusion in their curriculum. . (which they eventually did) . Furthermore David has worked directly with Gene Ovnicek for many years, making many trips over here as well as hosting Gene over in Europe. He is a top notch and fully qualified registered farrier. As well he has done clinics, and sponsored Genes clinics all over Europe and has lectured here in the US on NB principles and using EDSS . I think he knows what he is doing.
Patty

[calshoer]

I know for a scientific fact (and from following behind many farriers still in the learning curve) that if a horse develops an apparent toe quarter jam,(when the toe corners appear pushed up and the center of the toe dips down,it is because he was trimmed INTO the sole callous, grossly weakening it.
That is not "trimming to the sole" , that is "invading" it. When that happens the coffin bone sinks, taking the center of the wall with it .However the toe pillars are stronger (yes they are a real structure that really exists) so the quarters appear jammed up as the coffin bone slides down past them but the hairline stays put in the corners.
As to heels jammed, then the heels were not trimmed back enough . If you look at a heel jam at the hairline, look directly below the highest part of the jam. That is usually where run forward the heel buttresses are, instead of further back where they belong had they been trimmed correctly. Trimming correctly by following the sole plane but *without* invading it will prevent and eventually correct both of these conditions.
If the feet look like what you describe the farrier does not truly understand trimming to the sole. Patty

[T.N. Trosin]

That is not "trimming to the sole" , that is "invading" it. When that happens the coffin bone sinks, taking the center of the wall with it .However the toe pillars are stronger (yes they are a real structure that really exists) so the quarters appear jammed up as the coffin bone slides down past them but the hairline stays put in the corners.
Patty
Then how come the opposite toe quater won't be jammed as well?

[Phil Armitage]

T.N. or apparently Tom

Any method improperly applied will cause problems. The T-Square is only one single method, it is a tool to see if the heels are level and if the plane of the foot is at a right angle with the limb, this does not address any deviations in the lowest joint, like the coffin bond joint. Achieving a flat foot with heels that are level is a good start, however more is needed. I would like to know what is wrong with learning more about landmarks in the hoof that also assist the farrier in achieving balance. If your paying attention to things that properly aligne the pasturn and the coffin bone then you are paying attention to the rest of the horse, like conformation and the way it moves. I agree we need to shoe the whole horse, that is why I like Natural Balance principles, it is based on the whole horse. I also noticed Dave misunderstood your first post and took it as that you were new. I also took it that way the first time I read it. After I learned how to properly read the foot, I found I have no use for a T-Sqaure and would not teach a new farrier how to use one. I would teach a new farrier how to read the sole, observe conformation and gaits. What is ironic, is the T-Sqaure is a tool that encourages new farriers to do work even when they do not understand the horse.

[David J Nicholls]

Hello Tom,
Patty is quite right, I have lost the thread with this one and I am sorry if I caused any offence to either yourself or others. I think I have it sorted out now.
The trouble with us all, is we have a common goal (the soundness of our equine friends) We are all passionate about preventing people from making the same poor choices we have all made at some time.
I sometimes get in a mess trying to help out.
Kindest regards,
David.
David J Nicholls

[calshoer]

Tom wrote: "Then how come the opposite toe quater won't be jammed as well?"


Because the farrier pared or rasped further into one side the the sole callous trying tho 'level' the foot, thus weakening it more than the other side. P3 moves down on the more weakened side.
Again, he/she was not *following* the sole plane but rather was invading and modifying it. Trimmign to the3 sole plane is easy... if you just STOP exfoliating the chalky stuff as soon as you see the shiny layer. Patty

[Grulla Girl]

Hello again,

I have never used a T- Square and from the posts I have read I don't think I ever will. I just seen a picture of it in our school farrier book''THE PRINCIPLES OF HORSESHOEING II" and thought it might help me.When I was at school I did fine on trimming I am just nervous about doing it on my own now and I thought this tool might reashure me that I had done my job right. In the mean time I have been practicing on my own horses and going around with another local farrier and he has given me a few pointers on shoeing and trimming for that matter. I would also like to note that I got a complement from my vet , who owns horses, on my trimming and shoeing job, on my horse. I would also like to say I didn't like the remark about having no buisness with nothing, in my opinion everybody has to start some where. My main trouble is the fact that I lack confidence, thats why I have been spending time with another farrier.


Thank you to everyone who posted.

Grulla Girl :)

[Donnie Walker]

Grulla Girl - "confidence" is believing in your own abilities within the parameters of your individual knowledge, and as such, will increase as your knowledge increases. "Self-confidence" stresses trust in your self-sufficiency.
Hang in there, be bold in your approach, err on the side of caution, and never
hesitate to seek guidance, as you are doing here. Eleanor Roosevelt once stated: "You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face." Good luck

[Dave Purves]

Back to the T-square, I've been thinking about this wondering who is right, a T-square can be a useful tool in the right hands, I've never used one but I know a few guys that do and they readily admit that there are plenty of legs that don't conform but you can still use the "T" part of the square to check and make sure the foot is level, and not necessarily in line with the leg. I think it's like any other tool in our boxes, I don't use my nippers on every horse but that doesn't mean I should throw them away and cast a spell on the evil things so they never return.
just a thought
Dave Purves CF :rolleyes:

[Donnie Walker]

Others share your belief, Dave. I remember commenting to Jim Keith, CJF, of Tu***cari, NM, about the negatives of the "T Square". His comment was: "It's like any other tool. Don't use it in an application if you don't know how, but try to learn about it in the meantime."

[2R Farrier Services]

We just had our annual clinic/contest here in Michigan this past weekend. Michael Savoldi was here with his UST lecture. He showed through slide presentations of how conformation effects P3's M-L solar plane to the "horizon" when using a T-square vs. the sole plane in regards to landmarks for trimming. I will continue to use the sole plane and individual conformation as prep basis!