Theory for WLD treatment

[ray steele]

Hi folks,

For some time , actually since last August at my doctors, I've been bantering around a thought about using liquid nitrogen to freezer burn the tissues that feed whatever it is that causes white line. I know that there is already a WLD thread going but I didn't want to appear to be hijacking it and I forced myself to learn how to start a thread, if I do it correctly, if not I practice my typing.


I want to open with the redundent thought that the organism(s) ,causing or present during the occurence of what we call WLD are at best difficult to destroy, and that I have usually attempted to change the enviroment in which it favors.

The idea for liquid nitrogen came to me while having a wart removed, it was essentially freezer burned, having noticed that everything came back to normal after healing, I began to think about the nail bed of the hoof and how it always seems to regenerate after an injury,much like a human fingernail does after injury.

My thought is that if the extent of "infection" of the diseased hoof could be generously approximated, the area "freezer burned", the burned area removed, there should be no bleeding because of the burn, the hoof would have a chance of growing back in a "clean area". I'm saying clean because I'm not sure that we ever get to the end of the invaded area with a resection or with topicals.

Remember this is theory, I have verbalized it to a few professionals, vets, farriers and a professors of equine studies and have gotten the odd look, the "interesting thought" comment and one vet suggested totally against it since her theory was that WLD starts in injured tissue and this would just be providing more injured tissue.

I'm packing for the Summitt so I'l have a chance to check in between today and tomorrow, any comments would be appreciated ,they'll give me thought food for the plane ride.

Thanks for reading

Regards

Ray Steele

[crazy k horseshoeing]

simple fresh air kills wld fact wld is easy you need nothing except a sharp knife it should all come to light in the near future

[ray steele]

crazy K h


Thanks for the reply, I'm glad that WLD has been that simple for you ,not for me. Maybe I should change knives or sharpeners!

Regards

Ray Steele

[Phil Armitage]

I thought WLD was a fungus. From what I understand about fungus it can survive exposed to air unlike anerobic bacteria. Ray I would pass your idea by a Dentist. The reason I mention this is because they deal with anerobic bacterias and fungus in the mouth. I have talked to my Dentist about thrush before and he was full of information.

[Mike Bailey]

Phill, read Mike Wildenstein's thesies on the subject it is in hoof care and lameness an excellent publication also in the AFJ. I would tell you which issue and I could use to refresh on it. But I am on the road shoeing right know and the mags are at home. Printed in 05 is all I can tell you untill the end of the week.

[ray steele]

Phil,
I have also presumed that WLD was caused or was the result of fungus,
One local vet in discussion informed me that a local farrier corrected him in his description of it as a fungus to that it was a yeast, that I know a yeast is a fungus, but that is another discussion.

The late Burney Chapman after fairly extensive studies said at a SNEFA meeting that he felt that it was a fungus or more directly maybe several fungi.


I don't know, but I'm theorizing fungus gotta eat! I think, like the vet who is against my idea said, "what we see is the tail end" and the head is near the live tissue. My thought is, i.e. take away the food supply,the live nail bed via liquid nitrogen. I just don't know if it (the nail bed)will in fact regenerate or have I missed something in my observations.

Regards

Ray Steele

[EileenHughes]

Ray, maybe you should try it and let us know the outcome.

It's so crazy, that it just.....might....work! :D

[Mike Bailey]

Has anybody watched the chapman tapes? I own them and as said in the tape White line is onickelmycossis(spelling?) and the only way to tell if it acctully was is to have a lab test it.

If you can not have it tested treat it as white line as it is a fungus. Agin I need to review this subject but best to my knowledge the fungus that destroys the statum medium can not thrive once debrided into healthy horn.

I have never had any cases tested but can post cases where I have treated and succssefully had healthy horn return.

[crazy k horseshoeing]

ok am only going to say this once wld is yeast fungi and bacterie all are anarobebick spelling?that means expose to fresh air and it dies on top of that you cant get to it with chemicales unless you cut it out so cut out your need good glasses and i real knife 4to6 weeks later clean and cut again you might have to go once more then the hoof will grow good one small problem stalls will be inficted so your horse will pick it up again but 2 strokes of the knife will fix that if you want to treat the hoof toilet bleach kills all known germs i know this works fact

[T.N. Trosin]

if you want to treat the hoof toilet bleach kills all known germs i know this works fact

Also kills that pesky lamine, who needs that :cool:

[cowboy_bc]

ok am only going to say this once wld is yeast fungi and bacterie all are anarobebick spelling?that means expose to fresh air and it dies on top of that you cant get to it with chemicales unless you cut it out so cut out your need good glasses and i real knife 4to6 weeks later clean and cut again you might have to go once more then the hoof will grow good one small problem stalls will be inficted so your horse will pick it up again but 2 strokes of the knife will fix that if you want to treat the hoof toilet bleach kills all known germs i know this works fact

Hi all,

Ya better tell us again because I think you just contradicted yourself in what you just wrote. Oh and it's Anaerobic, Bacteria.

Kevin

[crazy k horseshoeing]

Hi all,

Ya better tell us again because I think you just contradicted yourself in what you just wrote. Oh and it's Anaerobic, Bacteria.

Kevin
where and i know i cant spell but by jove i cant half shoe a horse

[kanderso]

Hi folks,

For some time , actually since last August at my doctors, I've been bantering around a thought about using liquid nitrogen to freezer burn the tissues that feed whatever it is that causes white line.

Ray,

I work with liquid nitrogen occasionally, and I think the problem with it would be that it would be harder to control the liquid N than it would be to just dig in with a hoof knife.

I think I'd rather take the chance of hitting blood, and then deal with disinfecting and bandaging, than try to figure out how to limit the amount of freezing with liquid N.

I know that doctors use it on skin warts and such, but those things are right there on the surface where they can see. That, and they may be able to see the changes in the skin as they freeze it, but I doubt I could see the changes in the hoof as it froze. So I wouldn't know when I'd gotten all the WLD, or if I was applying way too much liq N for way too long, and freezing parts that didn't need to be frozen.

Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA

[shilohqh]

Here is some interesting reading on WLD.
sbsequine.com/report1.html

[ray steele]

Kris,

Thanks for your comments,my aversion to the knife usage is two fold , lack of precision and the possability of opening up the circulatory system to invasion.
I do know that my MD was pretty precise, and that Vets are using the same method for removing growths from equines and other species.

Please realize the thread start was me "thinking out loud" looking to elicit comments and thoughts about this.

Shilohqh,
I could'nt open that reference so I can't at this time comment but thanks for pointing it out.

Regards

Ray Steele

[poloshoer1]

In my opinion liquid nitrogen would be a bit radical treatment for a relatively simple problem. Here in the southeast we deal with WLD often. It is true that being an anaerobic bacteria (onychomycosis) that exposure to oxygen causes that exposed portion of the infestation to die. Gung ho farriers straight out of school often think they should resect every hoof with WLD. This is in my opinion unneccesary and detrimental. WLD as I know it seems opportunistic in nature, attacking the hoof at its weakest and most vulnerable point. Often times this is at the toe, or corresponding to a medial or lateral flare. Excessive leverage stretches and weakens the laminae in these areas due to any combination of the following factors 1) Poor shoeing/ trimming or neglected hoofcare (long intervals between appointments). Poor hoof conformation can be a secondary contributing factor (in that it may increase leverage in some cases). 2)Environmental conditions (unsanitary stalls/ turnout; too many horses on too small acreage; exposure to excessive moisture or organic, rich soil).
There is a time and place for resections, but one should use discretion. I see way too many resections done by overzealous vets and farriers. By simply shoeing the hoof correctly and then keeping that horse on a timely schedule you can (over a series of visits) trim out the infestation faster than it can spread up the hoof. I can see someone responding by saying, I wish it were that simple. I would say it is that simple in the vast majority of cases. Extremely advanced cases may likely warrant a change in strategy, but unfortunately I think that this (WLD) is a big issue today because we have so many farriers who cannot shoe a horse correctly and we have so many owners who go too long between appointments. We as competent farriers must also be capable of distinguishing between benign infestations and severe infestations and treat each horse accordingly.

[reillyshoe]

I have been involved with using liquid nitrogen on growths such as canker (some successful). The problem for WLD might be that you can't apply it to the organisms you are trying to kill (they are microscopic). I would think you would destroy too much healthy tissue in the process.
Think smart bomb- not nukes.

[ray steele]

Pat ,

Thanks for the post, The idea/theory is to remove the "food" source, not to get at the organism directly , especially since they are microscopic.

Regards

Ray Steele

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Ray, what do you think about useing White Lightning. I have had great success with it getting rid of bacteria. Only used it on one case of WLD and it seemed to work. I say it worked only because the problem did not continue after treatment and new growth was healthy. Took a long time for that damaged horn to grow down, but it grew back nice. Nice thing about it was we did not have to remove hoof wall. Only one case though. Also very safe to use.

[ray steele]

Phil,

Thanks for the post,

White Lightning sometimes works, as has been stated by some and debated by others, the knife, bleach,vinegar,hydrogen peroxide,iodine,and other concotions. etc,etc.. All if the organism is one that will respond to what you are using,,I'm a great believer in "changing the enviroment,because I believe that these organisms are infact delicate. One drawback is time to see if what you are using is working, if not then a lot of time may have passed and then a new protocol needs to be tried and waited on. I have worked on some very stubborn cases and have taken to thinking out loud about it,

White lightning is a chemical from the paper and water purification industry , little is known about it in our industry, I'm not sure just how safe it is,nor if it is dangerous,do you?

regards

Ray Steele

[tbloomer]

I'm not sure just how safe it is,nor if it is dangerous,do you?
No more or less dangerous than Jameson. :)

[ray steele]

No more or less dangerous than Jameson. :)



Tom,

That is why I and several other dedicated researchers have taken it upon ourselves the conduct field studies about the Jamesons.

Would you be suggesting the Jamesons as a white line treatment? interesting!

Regards

Ray Steele

[Phil Armitage]

Tom,

That is why I and several other dedicated researchers have taken it upon ourselves the conduct field studies about the Jamesons.

Would you be suggesting the Jamesons as a white line treatment? interesting!

Regards

Ray Steele

Good reason as to why we have an open bottle in the truck. Label it "Irish WLD treatment"

"Officer, this is only used for WLD treatment, honest". :)

[hoofinit]

I've seen you guys refer to "Jamesons" in the past..
What exactly is that??

[Joey Aczon]

I've seen you guys refer to "Jamesons" in the past..
What exactly is that??I believe it's Irish

[ray steele]

Hi Folks,

after speaking with a # of vets and a # of mds and getting the interesting thought and are you crazy looks, I had a physical on myself today, the body not the mind,

anyway the good doc decided that there was not much to loose, so we/he in the spirit of research liquid nitrogen blasted one of my toenails as an experiment, i'll let you know the outcome in a few weeks.

regards

Ray Steele

[Katy Watts]

Chlorine dioxide (the active in White Lightening) is now being used as surface disinfectant in potatoes going into long term storage. Potatoes are in contact with soil, (just like hooves) and when potatoes rot, there are usually too many organisms there to tell which one started it all. Several each fungi and bacteria can be found, and throw in some nematodes and virus, too. I suspect that it would be the same if everyone plated out the organisms in WLD. Dirt is just full of all kinds of stuff, and if you add manure to the picture, it there would be even more stuff that could be in there. It's a guesssing game, which is why I believe you get such inconsistant results with various more specific products.
Because of the broad specturm of organisms involved, the best results are with a broad spectrum disinfectant. Previous products targeting specific fungii were not doing the job in potatoes.
We apply it as a spray immediately after mixing, on the belt as the potatoes are piled. Research as shown it will do a LOT better job if a sleeve is put over the whole conveyor belt to keep the gas trapped in longer. No you don't want to stand down wind, and if the air is still in the cellar it will choke you up some. It disipates quickly, leaving no residues behind. You guys work outside. Should be OK.
FWIW, White Lightening makes sense to me on a scientific level, even though I have no experience with it.
Katy

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I've seen you guys refer to "Jamesons" in the past..
What exactly is that?? Its an Irish Whiskey

[Jhubbard]

I use cleantrax. I am in the southeast, and see TONS of whiteline. My approach is to try to remove as much of the fungus as I can with a knife, till I start to hit solid healthier laminae. I then soak the hooves as prescribed on the medication.

If I get it to stop progressing and I am getting healthy hoof growing down, great. If I don't, I switch meds, white lightning or copper sulfate and ammonia. As a last resort, to avoid founder issues, I resect and shoe.

I think the liquid nitrogen idea has merit, as they are way too many farriers out there who are content to do what everyone else is. Maybe remove as much as you can with the knife, prior to making the foot bleed or prior to resection. The void you create may be perfect for administering the nitrogen.

I have actually had pretty good success with the cleantrax, however I will state that I think absorption is the key with topicals. The gasses in the cleantrax soultion are supposed to do most of the work. The condition of the hooves here in Florida are often so hard, most of your 90 mins. of activation on the cleantrax are wasted, as the hoof has not been soaked enough to really become porous (sp.?) and absorb the med.

That being said, I recommend clients soak the foot in water for around 30min. prior to administering topical medications. This is a new approach for me and I am going to see if it increases my success rates. Hats off for pioneering theories and advances.

Best,
JPH