shoes for mini's

[LFEquines]

My mini mule has just been diagnosed with laminitis, slight rotation, will post x-rays as soon as I get them. My farrier and vet are discussing recovery options now but in the mean time does anyone know of shoes specifically made for mini's? Right now she is on styrofoam, how long can she be on those and where can I order more if need be? Thanks in advance.

[calshoer]

They do not make shoes that small but there is a good and easy support option.Your farrier can make and glue on little "steward clogs" made out of plywood.
He can contat EDSS inc for a video on how to use clogs then just cut his own out of plywood. Once he sees the video it wil be clear how easy it will be to do on a mini. In the video they use screws in the horse's hoofwall, but on a mini just glue alone will be plenty. Patty

[Phil Armitage]

The good news is the mini mule is small and there feet are pretty strong, so recovery from this should be pretty good. I am not sure if this little guy will even crush the foam unless it is softer than what is normaly used. It sounds like this is the accute stage of laminitis, the cause needs to be stopped and preventing damage like tearing and more rotation needs to be prevented by providing a deeply bedded stall, the foam is good and confine to stall to minimise movement, especially if he is buted. When a horse is buted the pain is masked, however the lamina is damaged and week, and mechanical strain must be minimised, when a horse walks, the stress applied by gravit weight and the Tendon putts pulling and pushing forces on the coffin bone located in the hoof and causes more tearing which will cause more rotation. If the horse is not buted then the pain is there and this will regulate how much a horse will move becuase they feel it when they do. Does this make sense? Really difficult to shoe a mini, and the type of shoeing needed cannot be determined until the accute stage of laminitis is under control and then determine how much damage like rotation and/or sinking there is. Right now your job is to prevent as much rotation and sinking and further damage to the lamina by follow your Vets and Farriers instructions, manage the mechanical strain on the feet until the accute stage of laminitis is under control. If you have any questions or concerns do not hesitat to ask your your Vet and Farrier and/or ask right here for help. After the accute stage of laminitis is under control, you may be able to manage the feet by going barefoot and trimming on a frequent schedule to keep the distorted hoof capsule balanced as your mini grows new hoof. It sounds like you caught it in time and are on the right track. Best wishes!! Be patient, get informed, follow instructions as long as they make sense. It takes a long time and it can take any where from a few months to over a year for total recovery, it all depends on the amount of damage and the rate of growth. It takes aprox. a year for a horse to grow an entirely new hoof. You also need to find out the cause and prevent it from happeing again. Most of the time horse Founder (Laminitis) from being over weight, over eating. There are many other causes, however over eating/wrong diet is the primary cause.

[LFEquines]

Thank-you Patty and Phil for your advice and quick replies. I originally posted in the abcesses section before I found out about the rotation. The mini mule is now in the barn with a buddy horse in a 30'x30' dirt area. She is not moving much and seems to be leaning all her weight onto her right side since both left hind and left fore are very sore. No reaction to hoof testers though. X-rays showed rotation only in the left fore although there was a "serum line" in the left hind (is that correct?).I've ordered some more styrofoam pads, I was thinking it would probably be very difficult to hammer out shoes that small but will also discuss the "clogs" idea with the farrier as well. I am thinking that the reason for the laminitis is due to pasture but will follow up on blood work to make sure. She is not fat or cresty and is eating orchard grass/fescue hay, no grain or vitamins. I have been reading from previous posts of other cases on this site and learning a lot. This is my first experience with laminitis and hopefully the last.

[Katy Watts]

I am thinking that the reason for the laminitis is due to pasture but will follow up on blood work to make sure. She is not fat or cresty and is eating orchard grass/fescue hay, no grain or vitamins.

I see you are in Tennesee. Would you tell me what kind of pasture (fescue?) and what percentage green left? What were your night time temperatures been the week before the mini foundered?
Fescue is just loaded with sugars late fall and early winter, even when it looks mostly dead. Insulin resistant animals are not always fat. My Connemara isn't, and her insulin is still scary.
Get your hay tested for NSC at www.equi-analytical.com and get this animal in a dry lot. No pasture at all. For more info go to www.safergrass.org

Best of luck,
Katy

[LFEquines]

Katy,
The pasture is mostly fescue and brown. The night time temps had been in the freezing mark so I think that was the problem.
She is in a dirt area now in the barn but looks like I learned a lesson the hard way at the expense of my mini. :(
She seems to be more comfortable now, not leaning on the right side as much as before. She is still on styrofoam and bute too.
Thanks for the advice on hay testing, I will do that.

[Red Amor]

Gee this is a wonderfull site :)

[caballus]

Dry lot is good for donkeys and mules. I have two rescue Sicilian Donkeys who had obviously been well-fed. TOO well-fed. Chronic Founders, both of them and both grossly obese. Donkeys and mules eat even LESS rich grasses, etc. than horses naturally. Even a regular diet of green hay can cause them to become obese and foundered. My guys get 2, 4# flakes of poor quality grass hay twice a day and each gets a cupful of Poulin MVP Vitamin pellet. That's all they get. They do get "salads" once a week or so with mixed fresh veggies but no more than a handful each. They are about 40 years old and still chubby but at least they are relatively sound and able to get around. I'd keep your guy out of the pasture and in a dry lot permanently. Keep the hooves well trimmed and you should see some positive responses. Donkeys are great animals!

--caballus

[Katy Watts]

Katy,
The pasture is mostly fescue and brown. The night time temps had been in the freezing mark so I think that was the problem.
She is in a dirt area now in the barn but looks like I learned a lesson the hard way at the expense of my mini. :(


I learned that lesson last winter. Then I started testing dead grass in mid winter and the numbers are astounding! Could you sample a gallon ziplock of your fescue pasture, freeze immediately, and ship it fast on a Mon or Tues. with a cold pack to Equi-analytical, along with your hay test? The NSC by itself for the pasture sample is $19. I would write up your case along with some others. I think I'm finding the reason for some of these midwinter founders of mysterious origin. Fescue is known for being 'best' for cattle winter stockpiled forage because it is especially good at ac***ulating sugars after a freeze. It also has a waxy coating that resists leaching of nutrients from rain or melting snow. I've got fescue that looks 90% dead that went 30% NSC in January in Colorado. Would appreciate anyone else that can contribute some data for this project.
Please, everyone. Color is a meaningless indicator of forage quality. Brown grass and hay can be full of sugar. People send me samples of brown stemmy hay that foundered their insulin resistant horses and ponies. You cannot tell by looking. Green grass and hay can be low in sugar. Don't buy hay by color. Get it tested for NSC for laminitis prone animals.
Katy
www.safergrass.org

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Katy,

I appreciate that insulin resistant horses have trouble dealing with (excess) amounts of sugar in their food. I'm interested to learn how to test for such insulin resistance. I can see you want to take a blood sample and send it off to some kind of testing facility. But what should you tell them to look for? And how would you explain to a vet why such a test is necessary?

As a horse shoer you sometimes have to work with the vet present, not always the vet you'ld like to have around a laminitis case. (Some vets just don't specialize in horses, but in cows and pigs or dogs and cats) I'm just interested in learning more on how to make the best out of those situations.

Maybe I should have found the answer on these boards somewhere, but I didn't........

Thanks,


Ronald Aalders

[Katy Watts]

I appreciate that insulin resistant horses have trouble dealing with (excess) amounts of sugar in their food. I'm interested to learn how to test for such insulin resistance. I can see you want to take a blood sample and send it off to some kind of testing facility. But what should you tell them to look for? And how would you explain to a vet why such a test is necessary?



The test for insulin resistance should include insulin, glucose, triglycerides. ACTH is also useful to see if a pituitary dysfunction is occuring as well.
Here's a link with a straight forward explaination, on page 5.
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Ralston/hoffman/IVIS.pdf

As far as explaining the necessity to a vet, sorry I've not been successful. But 'because I'm paying you to do it' generally works for me. I've given local vets packets of information, and I doubt they read it. One vet here refused to test a friends horse on the basis 'there's nothing you can do for it anyway'. Sigh. See why I encourage farriers to get the word out? Many rural vets spend all their time with their arms inside a cow, and they just don't have the new information on equine issues. I gave a lecture here, and got CE credits for vets, and invited them all personally, but none of them came. But they pay me to speak at Rutgers, and U of MO. ?!?!? Small town vets get defensive when presented with new research they probably should be reading. Believe me, when clients attempt to educate their vets with new research, it often doesn't go well. I doubt it will go any easier if you farriers attempt to educate, but if you can get the clients to understand, maybe they can get the vets to do the tests. Perhaps just download this paper, and say, Gee, isn't this interesting?
Best of luck,
Katy

[LFEquines]

O.K., just got copies of the x-rays. I am not real computer savvy and it seems like it has taken me hours just to downsize this one picture. This is a copy of a copy of the x-rays so please forgive me if it is not clear.
This is the left front of my mini mule. I will try again to attach the x-rays of the left hind too. She is still on styrofoam and bute.

[LFEquines]

Here a picture of both feet..the left front is on top and left hind is on the bottom. I hope this is clear for everyone to view. I was originally told by the vet that there was no rotation in the hind but I see now that there is. Am I right? Also, the left hind shows the heal up because she was too sore to put it down.

[Phil Armitage]

Well the good news is they are not sinking they are rotating. The reason this is good, is that means the attachment of lamina in the back half of the foot is healthy and strong. Much better chance for revcovery, it will still take a long time to be out of the woods. It is a must to find the cause and stop it. Follow your Vets and Farriers instructions. The primary focus right now is stop the laminitis, support the coffin bone (reason for styrofoam), minimise mechaninical pulling and tearing on the coffin bone (reason for confinement) reduce pain, inflamation and build up of fluids and abcesses (reason for bute). Remember if the horse is on any type of antiinflamatory, Pain killer it is not wise to turn them out, they will damage there feet more. Over time your little guy will grow new feet and it will reatach to the coffin bone and go back into alignment, as he goes through this process he may not need bute and can be turned out hand walked for excercise, this will increase circulation which helps healing. Very important that you take this one day at a time right now and communicate with your Vet and Farrier, they understand what your going through and will help you.

[LFEquines]

Thanks to all for the advice and knowledge you given me. My vet mentioned that I might want to try some thyroid meds since she is unable do a Cushing's test (due to steroid in test might cause relapse in laminitis?) Has anyone experimented with that? She said, if nothing else, it would reduce the mule's weight a bit. (I never thought she was fat)
Here's another question:Is the coffin bone supposed to be parallel to the sole in a normal hoof? Or is there some degree of an angle? I tried to research this topic on the forum but came up empty, maybe I missed it.

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi,

As it happened today I shod a foundered mini (not a mule.....). I happened to remember this thread so I took pictures. Now this is not necessarily the thing to do with your mini. I just posted these to show you can shoe a mini too if you have to and give you an idea how to do it. This mini rotated too. What has been done is the foot has been derotated and shod with a shoe made out of an aluminum wedge shoe that I cut off between the 2nd and 3rd nailhole. I shaped the shoe banana wise, tapered quarters to allow easy medial and lateral breakover. I further added a 2 degree wedge and provided arch support with hoofpack clear. The shoes were nailed on with two small nails per shoe.

On your questions. The palmar angle of a coffin bone in a healthy horse's foot is somewhere between zero and four (some say five) degrees, with the horizontal. I don't know about mules though! They may have a little higher PA. The palmar angle is the angle you find when drawing a line along the palmar ('bottom') side of the coffin bone, and compare it to the horizontal. The horizontal would be the marker in the X ray block. Its very difficult to even 'guestimate' the palmar angle of a coffin bone without X rays.

When you derotate the coffin bone you want to get the palmar angle back to zero degrees. You do this by trimming the heels along a line parallel to the palmar surface of the coffin bone. (Bringing back the heels towards the widest part of the frog) Normally the 'trimming line' will be around 20 mm or 3/4" from the palmar surface. On a mini this may be less. But keep the distance between the trim and the palmar surface as big as possible! After derotating the foot you need to ease breakover as much as you can and wedge up the foot in order to load the heels instead of the apex of the coffin bone. When trimming a rotated foot remember that the trim does NOT involve the area in front of the frog AT ALL. That area you DO NOT touch for derotation purposes. After derotation you can rasp off the toe in a 45 degree angle easing breakover. When doing so, check X rays carefully so you stay in front of the apex of the coffin bone. You need to leave ALL the sole there is below the apex of P3! After derotation raise heels and ease breakover. You could do that the way I did in the pictures shown, but there are other ways. When working on a mini advise is even harder to give because everything is so small and tiny.

Good luck!


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Thanks, for the pictures Ronald, that is pretty neat.

[LFEquines]

Absolutely fantastic! I am learning so much! I can't wait to show these pictures to my farrier, he'll get a kick out of these, no pun intended.

[Katy Watts]

. My vet mentioned that I might want to try some thyroid meds since she is unable do a Cushing's test (due to steroid in test might cause relapse in laminitis?) Has anyone experimented with that? She said, if nothing else, it would reduce the mule's weight a bit. (I never thought she was fat)


Your vet is not current. Over stimulating the thyroid is not the way to do this. The test you need to determine insulin resistance is baseline insulin, and glucose. It is a stand along condition, but can also be a symptom of Cushing's. To rule out Cushing's you can get baseline ACTH, which does not require the injection of Dexamethasone. I get all my samples sent to Cornell. ACTH/insulin is only $31. The shipping to get them there fast is more than the test. ACTH must be frozen. Just insulin and glucose will let you know that you need to focus on the the carbs out of her diet. Can you send your vet to my website?
Katy
www.safergrass.org

[LFEquines]

Your vet is not current.

I kind of had that feeling. I'm new in the state and when I called the clinic, she was the quickest responder.

I will refer her to your website but that would probably put me in the doghouse. I've known a few professionals that do not like to get information from non-professionals. No matter :D

Thanks for the info!

[mwmyersdvm]

It appears that you have plenty of hoof to work with here. I would simply trim the hooves into a roller motion fashion and not shoe them. Keep in a deeply bedded stall and the result should be positive.
You might consider a DMSO IV drip for a few treatments as this does seem to help these metabolic cases.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[LFEquines]

Thanks Dr. Meyers, I appreciate the positive comments and advice. I will be dealing with my own medical needs for the next week so I hope all is well with my mini mule when I return.