Navicular Info!

[HOSSBOSS]

I'm shoeing a 30 yr old Horse with a past history of Navicular. I've been shoeing him with #2 wedges & rocker toe the whole time since he's been comfortable with It. Well the other day the owner called me to say that the Horse got loose & ran down the highway & lost his front shoes along with the wedges. This Horse had galloped on the hard pavement for a long period of time, but now doesn't show any pain In his feet at all, except that the hoofs are warn down to knubs. I'm baffled since we thought he'd be very sore after that Incident. Should I continue to shoe him the way he was, or let him be for now & see what happends? I don't think the owner has gotten any xrays In a while since he seemed fine with the shoeing. The owner said that she doesn't want to take a "chance" that he will come up sore/lame again, so she Insists the shoes & pads be put back on. But why Is this Horse not showing signs of being sore? I know navicular does not reverse Itself so why would this happen? Any Info?

[John Emsley]

You're right, navicular doesn't reverse itself, however something has changed. The only absolute clear action would be to take rads. I was wondering if the x-rays were conclusive the first time that you shod him as mentioned? The procedure you've been using is very standard and while successful in the beginning, usually becomes less and less effective over time. The next step for many is "cryosurgery" (spelling?) with a laser. Some object to this as it eliminates the sensitivity to the back third of the hoof. Personally I've had good results. John

[crazy k horseshoeing]

I'm shoeing a 30 yr old Horse with a past history of Navicular. I've been shoeing him with #2 wedges & rocker toe the whole time since he's been comfortable with It. Well the other day the owner called me to say that the Horse got loose & ran down the highway & lost his front shoes along with the wedges. This Horse had galloped on the hard pavement for a long period of time, but now doesn't show any pain In his feet at all, except that the hoofs are warn down to knubs. I'm baffled since we thought he'd be very sore after that Incident. Should I continue to shoe him the way he was, or let him be for now & see what happends? I don't think the owner has gotten any xrays In a while since he seemed fine with the shoeing. The owner said that she doesn't want to take a "chance" that he will come up sore/lame again, so she Insists the shoes & pads be put back on. But why Is this Horse not showing signs of being sore? I know navicular does not reverse Itself so why would this happen? Any Info?
did the horse have true navicular in the first place with navicular they do come sound with rest at 30 he would not have done much your never be able to tell the owner that she know best i can tell so just do what she wants if the owner is any good tell her to try plan shoes or going bare foot you can allways go back to wedges

[John Emsley]

Crazy, Where did you ever get the idea that a true navicular horse will come sound with rest? Once that bone degenerates or is pitted with calcium deposits the tendons never have a smooth surface to slide across again. :cool: Just some British humour I suppose.
H.B. at the least keep doing what you have been doing if the owner balks at x-ray costs. She sounds like her main concerns are for the continued soundness and comfort of her horse. John

[Kevin L. Wyatt]

I have been working with a navicular horse for a year and the owner insited that I keep the heels high and rocker the toes on this horse. The owner said the x-rays showed navicular. I did not see the x-ray do to they were taken before I started to work on this horse. I took over from another Farrier.

The owner ran into some money trouble and just could not aford the cost of shoes any long. So she asked that I pull them and do what I could for the horse. I pulled the heels back and balanced the feet. Basicaly a simple trim Job. The horse now walks with no pain. I do not believe the horse had navicular in the first place, but I have found that on other horse I do with navicular some like that high heel and others do not, But if I have to raise there heels I do it with the shoe not the foot. So I can get the heel back under and keep the foot balanced.

[John Emsley]

Kevin, that's exactly why we use the 2-3 degree wedges, to broaden the support area and balance the hoof. Plus it protects the heel/navicular area. ;) John

[crazy k horseshoeing]

agCrazy, Where did you ever get the idea that a true navicular horse will come sound with rest? Once that bone degenerates or is pitted with calcium deposits the tendons never have a smooth surface to slide across again. :cool: Just some British humour I suppose.
H.B. at the least keep doing what you have been doing if the owner balks at x-ray costs. She sounds like her main concerns are for the continued soundness and comfort of her horse. John
did you read what i said DID THE HORSE HAVE TRUE NAVICULAR then i said with navicular they can come sound kevin as a horse that came sound iam a farrier not a vet if a vet tells me some thing one should believe i have seen many navicular horses come sound a few years ago they took 100 racehorses that were in training and xray them to find that a high persentage had navicular but were all sound question did the horse have navicular in the first place HOSSBOSS is asking for help just being english and polite so perhaps i should say the horse never had it in the first place and some one like me dont know what they are talking about

[John Emsley]

Crazy, I use to think I spoke English, but not now. Can't understand a word you say. :confused: Have a good day, mate. John

[crazy k horseshoeing]

Crazy, I use to think I spoke English, but not now. Can't understand a word you say. :confused: Have a good day, mate. John
why is ever one sarcastic on this site but as you like little quotes here is one you might like "it is what you learn after you know everthing that counts "

[Bill Adams]

"There is no such thing as navicular disease." Bill Moyer DVM Head of the College of Veterinary at Texas A+M.
He spoke of navicular bones with "leaisons large enough to drive a pick-up through", that the horse never took a lame steep and won millions of dollars running barrels.
His point was that pain in the caudle aspect of the foot can be one or more of many problems with out being the n-bone.
The cure for many of the ailments is to reduce strain on the tendons (reduce breakover and or wedge) and suport and protect (frog suport, silicone type suport).
I have seen many "N-Word" horses get cured by the fancy packages and then weaned off to be sound.
Bill

[John Emsley]

Bill I'm just starting my 38th year shoeing and have never had such an experience with a N-horse. This in spite of treating hundreds if not thousands with the exact treatment you referred to. Even with the cryosurgery, which as I'm told, is not with a laser but a probe, that freeze kills the nerves in that area, they have to be redone yearly. Admittedly they are usually shod as close to normal as possible after the surgery. Unfortunately the nerves reroute and attach again in about a year. This procedure has been done only when the wedges and eased break over with frog support, no longer works. (a time period of months to several years) Never have they gone sound on their own and that's all I can go by. John

[Bill Adams]

John,
Point taken. I shoe nerved horses too, though not many.
Dr. Moyer's point was that "navicular" is diagnosed when the vet can't find the problem. Many of the other problems in that part of the foot will heal when relieved and /or rested.
Bill

[crazy k horseshoeing]

John,
Point taken. I shoe nerved horses too, though not many.
Dr. Moyer's point was that "navicular" is diagnosed when the vet can't find the problem. Many of the other problems in that part of the foot will heal when relieved and /or rested.
Bill
is that not what i said in a very basic way without getting in to much depth have read quite a bit of moyer the latest thing here is mri scanning now everthing as tendon lesions in the hoof

[the_unicorn]

I'm shoeing a 30 yr old Horse with a past history of Navicular. I've been shoeing him with #2 wedges & rocker toe the whole time since he's been comfortable with It. Well the other day the owner called me to say that the Horse got loose & ran down the highway & lost his front shoes along with the wedges. This Horse had galloped on the hard pavement for a long period of time, but now doesn't show any pain In his feet at all, except that the hoofs are warn down to knubs. I'm baffled since we thought he'd be very sore after that Incident. Should I continue to shoe him the way he was, or let him be for now & see what happends? I don't think the owner has gotten any xrays In a while since he seemed fine with the shoeing. The owner said that she doesn't want to take a "chance" that he will come up sore/lame again, so she Insists the shoes & pads be put back on. But why Is this Horse not showing signs of being sore? I know navicular does not reverse Itself so why would this happen? Any Info?

I am about to work on a similar horse denerved a while back. The pain in the foot may or may not have been damage to the navicular bone. As noted in many studies horses that are shod for a while decrease bone density in P3 and Distal sesamoid. The holes in the bone do not necessarily correspond to the pain. The ligament is densely nerved and reacts to changes in forces applied to the navicular bone. So is more likely to be a source of navicular pain. There are many many things in the back of the hoof that give the impression of navicular damage. It is quite possible that after sometime the original cause of the pain is remedied. To stop density reduction in P3 and the navicular bone you want to get the horse to load the bones more, ie use the foot properly.

This is where good xrays help but the fact the horse shows no pain means it is probably OK to swap to hoof boots so the horses weight comes through the bones rather than transferring to the coronet band with rim shoes. You dont want them going from zero to full load like throwing shoes down the road, but that depends on the shape of the hoof. If the horse is happy to load the back of the foot then that is the start of concussion reduction to the bony column. If you check the quality of digital cushion and lateral cartilages you can tell how well the horse is going.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

the_unicorn in gray, deletia

As noted in many studies horses that are shod for a while decrease bone density in P3 and Distal sesamoid.

Many studies? Your statement is a bald faced lie in light of the fact that no credible scientific evidence suggests correctly applied shoes decrease either the density of the distal phalanx or sesamoid. Does the BUA never tire of mendacity?

The holes in the bone do not necessarily correspond to the pain. The ligament is densely nerved and reacts to changes in forces applied to the navicular bone. So is more likely to be a source of navicular pain.

To paraphrase Drs. Moyer, Stevens, et al, there is no correlation between holes in the navicular bone and palmer foot pain.

There are many many things in the back of the hoof that give the impression of navicular damage. It is quite possible that after sometime the original cause of the pain is remedied. To stop density reduction in P3 and the navicular bone you want to get the horse to load the bones more, ie use the foot properly.

In reality, remediation/palliation of palmer foot pain is dependent on its specific origin, no credible evidence suggests "density reduction" is a player, and "proper" use of the hoof is dependent on conformation and use.

This is where good xrays help but the fact the horse shows no pain means it is probably OK to swap to hoof boots so the horses weight comes through the bones rather than transferring to the coronet band with rim shoes.

Why piddle around with half-arsed measures? If the horse needs shoes to do whatever it does as best it can, shoe the horse; if not, leave the beast barefooted. One realizes you are utterly ignorant of farriery and its nomenclature, but rim shoes are very seldom applied to horses with palmer foot pain. Extra credit: Why?

You dont want them going from zero to full load like throwing shoes down the road, but that depends on the shape of the hoof.

Say what?

As a barefoot proselyte, constantly spreading the mendacity, misinformation, and disinformation of the Barefoot is Always Best Bunch, it appears you are not a farrier. If you're not a farrier, why are you posting in the "Farriers helping Farriers" section of this forum?

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Tom - Good posting in response to a load of tosh

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

What noise does a duck make? :rolleyes:

[reillyshoe]

I don't think Moyer was claiming that pain cannot originate from the navicular bone, but that radiographs and nerve blocks do not present enough information to rule out other structures as sources of the pain. Other Moyer stats:
1. There are 70 possible diagnosis for pain if we know the pain is in the foot
2. 1/3 of horses with pain in the foot assessed through nerve blocks and radiographs left Texas A&M with a diagnosis of "I don't know" (I think that is a plain-speaking Texan's way of saying "navicular syndrome").

The introducation of MRI gives the vets a better way of determining the source of pain, and enables them to evaluate tendons and ligaments in addition to bone (this is why football players get an MRI after blowing out a knee on Sunday). Many of the horses previously thought to have navicular disease are now being found to have injuries to the DDFT (58% of lameness in the foot is caused by this according to one study). Wedging has been shown to decrease DDFT strain in several studies (I am unaware of studies showing moving the breakover point back to reduce DDFT strain, but it makes intuitive sense).
Here is a thought for this case- perhaps the injury was actually damage to the DDFT, which has subsequently healed. If it is no longer causing pain, the wedges might not be needed any longer. Might the shoes and wedges lessen the liklihood of re-injury? who knows. I am unaware of anyone who has examined that issue.
It is also interesting to note that wedging is not a panacea. If the problem was elsewhere in the heels, there are structures which might not like heel elevation (soft tisuse trauma, or impar ligament strain are two possible examples).

[Ronald Aalders]

Allthough obviously nowadays an MRI scan can help finding the source of "navicular pain" in some cases, it still is very important not to treat and think about "navicular pain" as such, but rather as palmar hoofpain.

Don't limit yourself and what your working on to the navicular site only. Check the whole foot, leg, horse. For one be sure not only to check for D-P problems, but for L-M problems as well.

In my never too humble opinion :D the collateral ligaments of the navicular bone cause a lot of this palmar hoofpain. One of the ligaments that will take a big beating when L-M is off.


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Hey guys don't you see what happened here. After the horse lost his shoes running down the road and wore the feet to nubs the horse basiclly ended up with a Strasser Trim and healed. I know this is just one single case, however isnt it a good barefoot story. :)

[navicularassassin]

A horse that can go for a run like that is telling you that he felt able to run.

He took his own shoes off and managed to do so without putting a nail through his own foot ... which is good ... and seems to be comfortable. A sudden change in the angle ( no more wedge pads ) will likely cause him to be sore a few days later, but he'll likely get over that.

Can you get him back on the near-same angle barefoot? That angle may have relieved enough of the tension from the DDF onto the Navicular to make him feel 15 again, so do consider that in your decision of what to do next.

[calshoer]

Navicularassasin...please note the dates on the threads....this was over a year and a half ago. ;)