What's new?

[Dave Whitaker]

Hi Larkin,
Are we going to see anything new from you guys in Cincy this year?????

(like a giant Equi-pac price decrease????lol)

Thanks, Dave

[LarkinGreene]

Hi Dave - You never know what we'll pull from our sleeve. Wer'e having good success with EquiPak CS now that folks are getting used to the one minute set time and its stickier surface...the comment about trimming the foam board and letting it wear off is a good one. If you want your customer to see the cool blue/green color, wait a good ten minutes before removing the FB; peel it at the heel and roll it off towards the toe. Pulling foam boards at the toe pulls on the pad materials and can loosen it there.

As for the Summit and Convention, not sure what we'll have. We've been getting a lot of calls from people who want to pad their horses' feet during unshod periods, so we're testing a quick formulation of EquiBuild that can be spread on bare feet for protection. So far it's an interesting application that has lasted at three weeks in trials. Can't say for sure if it will come to market. Vettec is always working on a couple things at once. -Larkin

[SlowShoe]

So how about that price decrease?

=]

[Dave Whitaker]

Yep.. some sort of a barefoot "sole pad" would definately have it's place.... I did "kind of" successfully equip-pac'd a non-shod foot last year.... It was quite a process and lasted almost 4 weeks.

See you at IHCS... Dave

oh yea, Josh....... you know better...lol

[LarkinGreene]

Sorry Josh...don't see a price decrease in the near future...it tends to eat into profit, and profit pays for future development. Would you be as willing to drop your price? If we all did, it's true that horseshoeing would be cheaper.

If you guys aren't at least making a small profit on this stuff, we need to have a discussion on that. -Larkin

[brian robertson]

The problem I see, is that the venders sell the product to owners for my cost so the normal market up sometimes causes hard feelings.

[ray steele]

The problem I see, is that the venders sell the product to owners for my cost so the normal market up sometimes causes hard feelings.

Brian,

Charge for your service to apply the product, even if it is the owners product.

Regards

Ray Steele

[Dave Whitaker]

I think that Brian's point is a valid one. In most service industries where the provider,(farrier), purchases his supplies from the wholesaler, (Vet-Tech, Farrier supply house), and then in turn sells that product in the course of providing his service to the end user, (horse owner), an appreciable markup is customary. The builder going into the building supply store doesn't pay for his 2X4's what "Joe homeowner" has to. The manufacturer and supplier protect the builder's interest by assuring that the end user can't buy his material at the same cost. It's a courtesy that is rightfully awarded the service person, as he can recommend/use any supplier he chooses. That doesn't happen in our profession...... Vet-Tech, (and most others), make absolutely no attempt to insure that the farrier can make a reasonable markup on their products.

I, as do most of us, up charge for the "extras"..... but if we are all honest and accurate about where or "profits" come from, I think most of us would agree that we net the most $/hour into our pockets by trimming horses. Simple as that.

Dave

[Dave Whitaker]

Sorry Josh...don't see a price decrease in the near future...it tends to eat into profit, Would you be as willing to drop your price?

If you guys aren't at least making a small profit on this stuff, we need to have a discussion on that. -Larkin


Larkin, I mean absolutely no disrespect but I would absolutely LOVE to drop my price on Equi-pac and would do it immediately! It is the single resource that I routinely carry in my truck that I consider "out of whack" price wise. Regular pads are 5-10 bucks, enough impression material for a couple of feet maybe 6-7 bucks or so, enough Equi-Pac to do 2 normal size feet is 60-65 bucks! (2tubes, mesh, tips, foam, etc.). So, for me to apply the same mark-up that I use for the other products, I would have to charge an additional 150 bucks to Equi-pac 2 feet. The one thing you could do is look at the size of your packaging. The current 120 tubes are not conducive at all to use with typical equine feet. It takes a very small, shallow foot to be able to pad two feet with one tube, forcing you to use 2 tubes and charging the client likewise. My guess is that these tubes were already commercially available and their intended use didn't drive the selection process.

I think your product is great and I use a lot of it, but I usually have to give it away at cost. In the course of a year, I probably have a horse or two a week that I get called in on that would benefit from Equi-Pac, but the owner just won't go that route over a less expensive modality. The new CS product is going to jump this number considerably, and Equi-Pac makes great snow pads, albeit it the most expensive ones on the planet! I usually end up giving it away at cost and donating my time, just to help the horse.

So, when I see you in Cincinnati, I would like to have that "profit discussion" you mentioned........ I can't see much more room to bleed the stone......thanks for great products... Dave

[SlowShoe]

Dave I think most would agree with you on that. I feel the price for the stuff is ridiculous.

The problem is Vettec needs someone to truly compete with them to drive the price down. Im fairly confident they could afford to sell it a lot cheaper if they had to. So far no one has tried to compete realistically. Im sure all the research and development budget is minuscule compared to the advertising budget. You cant go anywhere or look at a farrier related publication here in the US and not see an add for the stuff. The mixing tips are a big deal, Im not sure if they make more money on the mixing tips or on the vettec =] They should at least offer an inclusion deal on the tips, and caps. Two tubes you get 10 free tips type of thing.

With all that said I understand vettec is not a non-profit company. As I've discussed with a few other folks in person, a lot of us farriers may not charge for each and every bit of the little things we do. I mean minuscule stuff like cleaning up the foot nice and pretty, or applying hoof conditioner after shoeing/trimming, or simply watching some horses go and evaluating for a few minutes. Yet some of us do. Vettec does charge with each and every little thing.

[LarkinGreene]

Hi guys - sorry I've been absent the last few days. Let me try to address all that I've read. I agree with you guys that the price is steep, but right now, the price is the price. Until it's made somewhere like India or Malaysia, it is what it is. We all have choices, and Vettec materials are at the top of the price heap, though if you really compare the cost in time as well as materials, they are not as far apart as you might think, especially when you weigh the results.

People only pay for value. If you cannot show it to them, they won't pay for it, and why should they? Here's an example:
When you get your brakes done, and the guy tells you he can put on the less expensive pads, and save you a hundred bucks, your immediate inclination is to save money. But if he shows you the difference in the pad thicknesses from better brand to best brand, you'd likely pay the extra expense, who wouldn't want extra braking power and life? You understand and weigh the costs. Give your horse owners that same choice.

We know that EquiPak at the very least, builds sole depth, thickens walls in the quarters by limiting sole flex, and protects against bruising. The successful farriers who are making money on Vettec have a binder showing pics and measurements of changed feet; feet that have gone from underrun foot***** to nice tight normal shape. Flat feet that have a cup again. Fat, tough frogs that contact the ground and provide support again. Now that is a benefit everyone should want and it's no manipulation in selling it as a benefit to both horse and owner. Quit thinking that your work speaks for itself, you must SHOW the results to the owner.

It's not a crime to want a profit; you're not screwing over anyone. Show them your costs and have the confidence to include your mark up. If they want to buy supplies and have you put them on, well, there's a price for that too. Looking forward to seeing you guys at the summit. -Larkin

[J.H. shoeing]

Larkin

I use a bunch of Vettec product. I charge for it. Compared to "Justy" soft pour its cheap. The "Barney Pak" has helped control some of our cost of Pak under pads. I believe the CS E-Pak is a good product also, just had to get used to the set time. I wish it was all free but since its not just keep making good products and we will buy them and use them.

Thanks

[Dave Whitaker]

I don't disagree with you at all, Larkin. Your brake analogy is a touch weak in that the additional benefits are more finitely defined through promised milage, warranties, etc. AND the upcharge to the "lifetime" pads may be 50% or so, not 300-400%, AND the mechanic pays a lot less for them than Joe car owner walking into NAPA on his own. NOT so with your product. We deal with horses, not machines, which just might have a few more variables. (Funny you chose this analogy....... I just had front brakes done on the old work truck today, Paid $37.45 for the "lifetime" pads, while the "better" pads were $26.70...and I'm sure my mechanic paid less than 20 bucks for them.... pretty funny).

I can and do extoll the virtues of EquiPac on a regular basis and use a lot of it. Love the stuff. But where you or I might be fortunate enough to be able to choose the better brake pads and write a check for it, many of our customers can not. They need to get their car to stop,(horse to walk), TODAY. What it's doing 30,000 miles from now is of little immediate concern to them. Should they even own horses with their budget constraints? Now THAT'S a whole 'nuther ball of wax, (and thread).

You did avoid the whole size of the tubes issue. Not sure who thought 120CC was a good idea..it's not, at least for the Pad materials. a 90-100CC or a 180-200CC tube would help us control cost by reducing waste a great deal.

Please don't take my comments as negative..they are not meant to be. I am far from anti Vet Tech. My truck has $700 to $900 of your products in inventory everyday. I'm sure many on this board carry more than that.
Your 401K program can thank me anytime ... :) Dave

Oh, and Jeff, I charge for it too..... at the rate of $10 a tube inch, and probably do OK at that rate......

[LarkinGreene]

I understand all your points. No offense taken to any. We welcome criticism; and we want your input; it's one of the ways we get things done. One of our biggest challenges has been getting folks to be able to convince owners to pay for our stuff. That's why we made the videos and books. This year we will recreate and expand both.

Regarding the cartridge, we use a standardized 180cc cartridge. There has been much discussion about offering a different size. There's not much between 180 and 400cc, 400 is available but ***bersome and too much material. If we created a custom cartridge, there is a significant cost. Remember a change in cartridge size means a change in mix tip and dispensing gun....everything you have now would be obsolete.

My point with the brake analogy is this: if you show the customer the benefit of something in terms they can understand, then you allow them to make an informed decision, and you look more professional for it, no matter what they choose. You become more valuable to them, and you win exponentially in the long run. I understand the difficulty with horse owners, we get calls from them all the time wanting advice on all kinds of things that are completely out of our realm...usually supplements. -Larkin

[ray steele]

A year or more ago I remember a farrier from Europe got on a kick about the expense of the equi pak and how the farriers were being ripped off, how much cheaper the commercial construction products were, suggested an alternative product made/packaged in Great Britian. I ran the # s based on ml vs ml. and the savings were negligable. with the strength/weakness of the USD ,I am not sure that Equi Pac might be cheaper today.

Bill Adams then pointed out that Vet Tec products make him money.
Several farriers have said that Vet tec products make horses go better.

I'm wondering,what's the beef?

Dave, i measured a tube of equi pak, I got 5.5 inches of product, call it 5 inches to allow for waste and tips, at your very reasonable,I would say inexpensive, $10.00 per inch that is $50.00 per tube. Looking at the marketplace, price of a tube $22.00 to $26.00 /tube, can we round it out to a 90% mark up including installation? Ask you supplier if he/she makes a
90% mark up when they pass it on to you.

I won't argue if Vet tec makes a good profit, actually I can't argue it either way,good or poor or otherwise but if they or anyone else has a product that works as well as you folks say this line of product works "what's the beef?"It does the job well and makes you money.

If a customer hands you a tube, just charge for installation. Ever noticed what a Vet charges for a tube of wormer, compare that to what a discount catalog sells the same wormer for. Ask a vet to install it and he /she has every right to get paid right up to his/her regular price. To me the same would go for farriers and hoof care products.

In my area some farriers are priced higher than others, some higher than me, some lower, when I'm informed that so an so will shoe a horse for such at such a price, I suggest that they hire so and so, I would say the same in this situation, If a product can replace Vet Tec products at a better price, use them.

I don't work for Vet Tec. If I could find a legal alternative, at less cost, I would, and I am sure Vet Tec is looking also, but even the looking costs money.

Regards

Ray Steele

[Dave Whitaker]

Larkin and Ray..... I really think we all are just beating the horse from different sides without seeing that the other one is there.

I DO charge for my VetTech products and cover my azz quite well. It's not unusual to have $80-90 in charges on a $30 tube of Superfast before it's empty,(my all time high is $140, I get $10 per repair), and that's not too bad even considering the extra labor.

Ray:$10.00 per inch that is $50.00 per tube. Looking at the marketplace, price of a tube $22.00 to $26.00 /tube, can we round it out to a 90% mark up including installation? Ask you supplier if he/she makes a
90% mark up when they pass it on to you.

Nope most suppiers work around a Keystone markup, BUT they don't have the extra time installing it..... Plus you left all the nice VetTech "extras" , (tips, mesh, foam, caps, etc), out of your example. Don't know about you Ray, but I average about $115- $140/ hr while trimming/shoeing horses.... not much room in your $50 example if you back the extra labor out.

And I really don't care about the profit, as funny as that seems, I'm pretty OK if I can just cover my nut on the extra costs with the EquiPac... I do fine on the other products.

My original point which really got lost here is that I, as well as many others I'm sure, have horses on a regular basis that would probably benefit greatly from the EquiPac that don't get it, not because the owners don't understand the value or don't want to pay the extra, they just CAN"T.... big difference. I use EquiPac on quite a few horses where I probably barely break even , might even lose a few bucks, but it helps the horse so much, I can't walk away. I guess it's my "pro-bono" program.

That's all I was trying to say... VetTech good..... price bad...... simple as that.... Dave

[Phil Armitage]

Couple of tips after reading this thread.

1. Use regular Equipak and a pinch of copper sulfate crystals. The cost is less.

2. When useing the foam board, place the paper side against the foot does not stick to the equipak. I cut out a piece to fit inside the shoe and leave the paper on. I have to give credit to Jaye Perry for that idea. Works real nice and the equipak is not at ground level creating excessive sole pressure.

[ray steele]

Dave,
one dead horse that I would like to put to rest is the belief that your farrier suppliers are working at a "keystone" mark up, that is just the type of incorrect info that I feel needs to be addressed, maybe it should be in a different thread, but since it was brought up here, I will ask you, . Where to you get your info on this matter? Or was it a presumption on your part? I address this because if not answered folks might presume that it is true. A truer overall but not precise I think is 15 to 50%, not factoring shipping, handling etc.

Regards

Ray Steele

[Dave Whitaker]

Ray,

The keystone comment was mostly a "shot from the hip", (old retail term). I only have 2 examples.....

I dabble in some "private" high risk lending that is always secured by tangible assets. Last year, an Equine "supplier" borrowed a sum of money that was secured by inventory, hence I was privy to his books, etc. Now, he certainly didn't have everything marked at Keystone but he had NOTHING below a 50% markup and any of us in any business knows you don't stay in business very long with a 15% mark up. Just doesn't work... I take that back, I have a buddy that bought a property for $1.7 Million, owned it about 20 minutes and sold it at a measly 10% markup... THAT worked.

The second example was a piece of equipment that a farrier supply house had to order for me so they had it direct shipped to me to save time.... unfortunately, their supplier packed their invoice in with the packing slip...oops! It too, was considerable more than 50%.......

Anyway... this is sooooo far off topic its funny now, but you asked....

My original question was so clear... funny how these posts can get twisted around.....

Larkin, Look forward to seeing you in Cincy, it's where I was introduced to SilPac last year.... wonderfull product , very effective...... stay on your shoeless pad idea...... Thanks, and I'm done with this thread, Dave