NB and EDSS

[Andy Blevins]

I am fairly new to this site but have done alot of reading here. I am certified and been shoeing about 3 years now so Im still just getting broke in..I have read alot about NB shoeing techniques and EDSS and was just wondering if anyone could direct me to a good website where I could study this further.

Thanks
AB

[Phil Armitage]

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/index.html

[Donnie Walker]

If you don't receive the Professional Farrier, official publication of the AFA, try to get the latest issue, November/December 2004. There is an article on page 26, by Brian Strelow, CJF, that compares NB shoes to others. It will most likely stir some responses. In fact, it has, or I wouldn't have posted this.

[Jason Maki]

Is the PF out already? I always seem to be about a week behind everyone else! I guess the USPS layed off the huskies and dismantled the sleds, so deliveries are behind here on the frozen tundra of the Mistake by the Lake( Cleveland, Ohio, for those lucky enough to be uninitiated in the vernacular of NE Ohio) That meens you are probobly warmer than me, too! Oh well, this is Cleveland, we eat cold and snow for breakfast, as my Dad says! We are having a Shoneys style feast today!
Jason

[calshoer]

I read the article yesterday. In fact the author brings up the most important point about the use of Natural Balance that actually applies to a lot of other shoes as well. All too often veterinarians and farriers think it is just a certain shoe that is the secret to good shoeing and either don't study, (or worse, chose to ignore) the *principles" of hoof function and form. Veterinarians have a really bad habit of prescribing a certain shoe without bothering to address the more important issues of bone column alignment though hoof balance, hoof preperation, breakover point placement, and so on. Many of them see NB shoes as a really good tool but forget to provide instructions about the foot itself.
As well the author did point quite correctly that it is NOT a square toe shoe. I am really glad someone recognizes that.

As to the "cure all" thing....The shoes themselves were only develped to make the job of applying natural balance *principles* easier, and have NEVER been touted by Gene himself as a 'cure all'. Nor have the principles.The are advertised as a "treatment" for many things , not a cure. Egg bars and heart bars are also a "treatment".
But some people seem to twist it that way. It is people OTHER than those who devloped the system who sometimes unfortunately do that , because they get a bit over enthusiastic.
Natural balance is a system based on good ,solid (and mostly independant) science that is in fact mostly about hoof preparation and only partly about how the shoe is fit. In fact you CAN use any shoe to apply the NB principles but it takes a lot more work.

For the record, Natural Balance PRINCIPLES have been continually researched since the late 80's ,and and Gene has done seminars teaching the PRINCIPLES since the mid 90's, (when I began learning this) , long before the steel shoes were even available. For a good part of that time there were only the aluminum NB shoes, used for the more the****utic applicatins. During that time Gene taught farriers at the clinics how to make modifiations to any brand of steel shoe.
Usually he used St Croix eventers,and which is still the alternative preference of other farriers who apply NB principles .

The steel NB shoes were only developed at the request from a lot of farriers ASKING for them, to make their job of applying the principles easier.
After modifiying keg shoes for four years, I was really happy when a shoe came available that required very little shaping to do my NB job properly.
The NB shoe encorporates all the necessary things needed in a shoe to apply NB principles easily. Design items such as the vital wide sole relief area, a nice wide web, and a shape that easily accomodates placement on a foot prepared correctly to NB principles. If you like to bang iron to encorporate ALL the necessary elements into a shoe , feel free. Unfortunely too many farriers try to modify or make shoes and come end up with something that looks like the pictures of misapplications in the article.
That is why I have no qualms about a somewhat inexperienced farrier having a good ready made shoe available, so he doesn't end up with mess like that modified steel shoe shown in the article. A farrier with less experience CAN indeed go out and help a lot of horses with little forge experience , if he understands the *principles* of the hoof preperation ans shoe placement. I see nothing wrong with helping horses with a more user friendly tool.
Patty

[Mike Ferrara]

I read the article yesterday. In fact the author brings up the most important point about the use of Natural Balance that actually applies to a lot of other shoes as well. All too often veterinarians and farriers think it is just a certain shoe that is the secret to good shoeing and either don't study, (or worse, chose to ignore) the *principles" of hoof function and form. Veterinarians have a really bad habit of prescribing a certain shoe without bothering to address the more important issues of bone column alignment though hoof balance, hoof preperation, breakover point placement, and so on. Many of them see NB shoes as a really good tool but forget to provide instructions about the foot itself.
As well the author did point quite correctly that it is NOT a square toe shoe. I am really glad someone recognizes that.



With all due respect Patty we could state all kinds of generalizations that might apply to some farriers and/or vets. However I've never known a farrier or vet that I would consider "good" who ignored the principles of foot form and function. Very few would disagree that hoof preperation is probably the most important part of the job since any shoe nailed to a mess is a mess.

Now there may be things that we don't know and even things that we're wrong about but that's not the same as ignoring the issue.

So many of the posts on this site seem written with the impression that "traditional" farriery is the blind lopping off of some foot and the nailing on of any old piece of metal with no regard to the health of the horse or the way they move. I know farriers who have spent their whole careers paying very close attention to the results of what they do and improving their methods. In addition horse owners, at least those who need their horses to be sound and able to perform, won't continue to pay without results.

As some one who doesn't claim to be completely educated on NB I can still tell you that in my years shoeing horses I've gone to all kinds of lengths to improve the health of the feet I've worked on and often without the help of a vet, the horse owner or even any pay beyond what I could have gotten by nailing a boat anchor to the horse. I was taught by some one who had a few tricks up his sleeve too.

Personally, I think that advocates of Duckets dot, NB, 4 point or whatever need to stand on their own results and stop comparing themselves to "traditional" farriery when what they seem to be talking about is bad farriery. Show me some meaningfull numbers showing that horses shod by competent NB farriers are in better shape than the ones shod by other competent farriers. Mind you, in addition to 25 years of shoeing horses (10 of which was full time and another few almost full time) I also have 15 years in manufacturing engineering most of which was spent in test and test equipment desaign and management so I'm no stranger to what's needed to prove process capability. I have to say that I haven't seen any data on this yet that would even come close to a meaningfull process capability study. The arguements I see all over the net exhibit all the attributes of other achronyms applied to fads I've seen come and go like SPPD, six sigma, SET and countless others presented as panaceas...or the right way by people who made a fortune and then were gone along with their desciples.

We started this in another thread and the problems that you associated with "traditional farriery" (or the methods you applied prior to NB) are, as I stated there, not problems that I have seen on horses under the care of any good farrier and a responsible owner. That part of this reaks of red herring as we don't seem to have a need of NB to solve those problems. Show a problem, a solution and data to show that solution to be significantly more capable. This is no easy task but it is what would be required to substantiate some of the claims that I'm reading. As an example, among other things you pointed to shoe pulling as one of the area that you saw improvement. However, you can't show your method to keep shoes on better than mine if all my shoes stay on...and they do. flares? same thing...the occurance of navicular? that would likely take a long term studdy.

Maybe there are some real studies that I'm not aware of and in that case I'd be happy to have a look...preferably one of statistically significant number and a control group to compare to?

[calshoer]

With all due respect Patty we could state all kinds of generalizations that might apply to some farriers and/or vets.
However I've never known a farrier or vet that I would consider "good" who ignored the principles of foot form and function."

Well first I want to say that I wanted to discuss JUST the items in the article and not get too off track with NB vs traditional or all that. The author was concerned about the shoes themselves, not so much the value of the principles. He made really good poijnts about poor shopeing in general and about NB being to often prescribed and misapplied.And esoecially that so many folks think it is the shoe that IS NB , when it not the brand of shoe that is important. That was good stuff. and correct.

AS to "good"farriers who ignore form and function, the better farrier do not ignore it, but often misunderstand it. The vets however too often DO ignore it.(or don't understand a thing about it ) Try to ask a vet who handed the owner a prescription for "egg bars with rolled toes" exactly how severe to roll the toe and where the roll should begin on the foot and just how much heel do you want trimmed wait for the reaction. It can be pretty funny. Supposedly top veterinary clinics who (for example to treat caudal foot pain) prescribe an "egg bar shoe, wedge pad and roll the toe" . That's it. Some refuse to discuss or allow the farrier to look at the Xrays. Absolutely NO discusion about the conformation of the heels of the foot, where to place the breakover, or how to map the foot for balance or shoe placement without the Xrays. I had one equine vet in my area of California, very popular well liked and considered one of the best in our area who prescribed egg bars roll toes and " green impact pads" (HAD to be the green pads) on just about every horse he wanted shod the****utically. It got to be a joke among horse owners as well as farriers. As to farriers who ignore or do not understand foot form and function, I see that all too often too. I am not the only NB farrier who has come in behind journeyman level work where the owners have already spent tons of money and years on the "best" farriers and vets and still the horse has some sort of vague soundness issues. I have so often just changed completely how the hooves were prepared and the shoe fit on that horse and they go off like a different horse. In one shoeing. It has happened for me so many times I don't count anymore. Tell me those journeymen level shoeings were doing the best job.

"Very few would disagree that hoof preperation is probably the most important part of the job since any shoe nailed to a mess is a mess."


Too many of the shoeings that I see are would not be consodered a Mess but are not doing the right job biomechanically for the foot ,and the foot (sometimes the whole horse) is suffering because of it. I am not talking about the slaponthediamondspecialwithoutevenshapingit cowboy. I am talking about jourmeman level sometimes handmade and expensive.That missed the mark.

"So many of the posts on this site seem written with the impression that "traditional" farriery is the blind lopping off of some foot and the nailing on of any old piece of metal with no regard to the health of the horse or the way they move."

When did I ever say that?

"I know farriers who have spent their whole careers paying very close attention to the results of what they do and improving their methods. In addition horse owners, at least those who need their horses to be sound and able to perform, won't continue to pay without results."

Of COURSE there are (thankfully) many farriers wh o DO care mosr about the foot ,worked that hard, study all the time, and DO get it. But still way too many who are so focused on the blacksmithing they completely miss the foot.

"As some one who doesn't claim to be completely educated on NB I can still tell you that in my years shoeing horses I've gone to all kinds of lengths to improve the health of the feet I've worked on and often without the help of a vet, the horse owner or even any pay beyond what I could have gotten by nailing a boat anchor to the horse. I was taught by some one who had a few tricks up his sleeve too."

Great, I wish more were like you. And the fellow who taught you probably would have never needed NB because he instinctively went with what the hoof needed. But most farriers nowadays don't get taught in school what is really right for the foot.

"Personally, I think that advocates of Duckets dot, NB, 4 point or whatever need to stand on their own results and stop comparing themselves to "traditional" farriery when what they seem to be talking about is bad farriery. "

NB does stand on it's own. It is the farriers who are seemingly stuck on tradition who force the issue into these discusions by continualy badmouthing it even though it is constantly growing in aceptance around the world.
NB has been around now for fifteen years or more. If it did not work it would not be continuing to grow at the rapid rate it is. The veterinarians who prescribe it more and more, the horse owners ,the farriers who keep asking for and coming to more NB clinics to keep learning it, and the horses themselves speak volumes. The testimonials that come into the EDSS office speak for the success of NB. And SO many of those horses had been previously shod in what anyone would consider very skilled farriery. Not messes. But the shoeing had missed the mark, Missed what the foot really needed to be sound.

"Show me some meaningfull numbers showing that horses shod by competent NB farriers are in better shape than the ones shod by other competent farriers."


Who keeps numbers. I can only personally say that pretty much all the ones in my practice were previously shod by very competent farriers,using the same mehods I USED to. Now consider that I do not advertise, and I charge a LOT more than those fellows did, and the clients still stay with me. Why? Ask them I guess. Why pay 25 to 30 percent more a shoeing and stay with that long term ? must be a reason. They were shod by very competent farriers before me , and cheaper.


"Mind you, in addition to 25 years of shoeing horses (10 of which was full time and another few almost full time) I also have 15 years in manufacturing engineering most of which was spent in test and test equipment desaign and management so I'm no stranger to what's needed to prove process capability. I have to say that I haven't seen any data on this yet that would even come close to a meaningfull process capability study. The arguements I see all over the net exhibit all the attributes of other achronyms applied to fads I've seen come and go like SPPD, six sigma, SET and countless others presented as panaceas...or the right way by people who made a fortune and then were gone along with their desciples."

Iam going to answer your question with a quesion. Is there data,controlled studies for example on how many more percent of horses are sounder in say ANY keg shoe as opposed to handmades? or StCroix eventers compared to kerkhearts? any study like that? Pretty much an impossible request.

"We started this in another thread and the problems that you associated with "traditional farriery" (or the methods you applied prior to NB) are, as I stated there, not problems that I have seen on horses under the care of any good farrier and a responsible owner."

Though some farriers DO understand the foot inside and out and really do apply what that foot needs, the majority unfortunately do not. They follow the old theories of seeing hoof balance and fail to recognize the subtle and destructive hoof distortion that follows. Leading to eventual gait faults or lameness that is often attributed to other things. Also a lot of times subtle things that I consider lameness are not even noticed by the trainer or owner until they begime so big they cannot be ignored. I have been called in for a lot of horses who when the finally had enough lameness that it was noticed, the vet was called, it turns out that there was a long history of little stuff...stumbling at five weeks from the shoeing , not wanting to take a certain lead, sore in the croup etc. Most farriers would not think that those things were signs of something going subtly wrong in the feet. I do.

"That part of this reaks of red herring as we don't seem to have a need of NB to solve those problems. Show a problem, a solution and data to show that solution to be significantly more capable. This is no easy task but it is what would be required to substantiate some of the claims that I'm reading. As an example, among other things you pointed to shoe pulling as one of the area that you saw improvement. However, you can't show your method to keep shoes on better than mine if all my shoes stay on...and they do. flares? same thing...the occurance of navicular? that would likely take a long term studdy."

You are right, it it nearly impossible to collect that type of data. But like I said before the consistant reports from owners, vets, other farriers over many years so far ,and the fact that vets and especially farriers are asking for more and more clinics says a whole lot.

Maybe there are some real studies that I'm not aware of and in that case I'd be happy to have a look...preferably one of statistically significant number and a control group to compare to?

Just sbout impossible to have a good control with ANY horse shoeing study. . . basically the fact that the 'control group' would be different horses blows the control.

Good discussion. Thanks for the questions. Patty

[Phil Armitage]

I have met Farriers that have been shoeing for many years, that have no idea of what a good trim is. Some of them Certified Farrier, some just been shoeing for years. When I first started shoeing, I new that I did not understand how to trim a foot properly, the school taught me very good basics, basic anatomy and how to use my tools, but did not and I found could not teach us how to trim with could reasons and explanations. The standard answer was it is a feel or make sure the hoof is at the same angle as the pasturn, if it is broken back take off more toe if it is broken forward take off more heel. I got the same response from other farriers while apprenticeing. As time went on and I got under more and more horses I did develop an idea of what I wanted to do and what I thought was a safe trim. It wasnt until I started to study Natural Balance Principles that I realy got a good understanding of the foot and how to properly trim it. In the past few years, it seems like the AFA has adopted very good principles and are much more detailed as to how to trim, for example "Uniform Sole Thickness" trimming to the sole plane. Many AFA certified Farriers that I know and non Certified Farriers with many years of shoeing deal with breakover one way or another by setting the shoe back unless they are takeing there certification then they have to parimeter fit to pass the test and then they go back to what they know is right. This is what I see, I am being open and honest, I am not slamming anyone or slandering anyone I am just telling it the way I see it. I think many of us do what we are taught and as we all know we need to keep on learning. I have learned that traditional teaching has us leaving the heels a little too long, toe a little too short, dorsal wall dressed a little too much and breakover a little to far forward. I have also learned that the really good Farriers traditional or not certiefied or not, seem to have a handle on what to do and there work is great, the feet are healthy and strong. This is what I want to do and I don't want it to take 20 years of me trying to figure it out on my owne, so I seek out knowledgeable people and learn from them. I feel Gene is one of the best, he teaches you how to do it right, he is not radical, he is common sense and is a very good teacher with many years of hard earned back breaking experience. He does it without imposeing his way in a overbearing way and treats you with respect so that you do not feel pressure, embarrisment and humiliated if you make a mistake. I have met AFA certifiers that are also like this and these are the people that will make a difference in this trade and raise the bar.

[Mike Ferrara]

Just sbout impossible to have a good control with ANY horse shoeing study. . . basically the fact that the 'control group' would be different horses blows the control.

Good discussion. Thanks for the questions. Patty

Not true. We are forced to study and control processes all the time where there are many uncontroled or possibly unknown variables. Thats the purpose of a control group. A control group always consists of different units.

It is important though that the control group be treated the same in all other respects.

The only reason to ever use a statistical analysis is when different samples or populations must be compared when not everything about them is known or controled. Otherwise a simple experiment would be all the proof we need. Such as...look I nail the shoe to the wall and the horse can walk but when I nail the shoe to the frog he falls down. I would expect that to be 100% repeatable and I could prove it with a very small sample size with no need for any statistical comparison.

Drug companies do this all the time. since we are dealing with probability calculations, samples rather than populations and uncontroled variables there is a margine of error in the prediction. It's also important that we calculate the expected error of the prediction. Still new data sometimes blows the whole thing out of the water and mistakes are made...or I should say incorrect inferences are drawn and later revised based on additional data. That's why correct design of the study and correct handling of the data is so important. The result is that we sometimes see drugs pulled off the market. I'm ignoring politics here of course.

In my own practice I'm free to modify methods based on very little data...I did it this way last year and things didn't go so good but i did it this way this year and things went much better. That might be enough for me and it may be enough for my cusotmers. however the inference drawn from my observations may be totally incorrect.

A fun example...I was on a manufacturing line once and saw a lady doing something strange with a part she was building. She tested it and it failed. She then pulled it apart and rotated a spring and tested it again and it passed. I asked her about it and she said that rotating the spring fixed it and that she had been telling engineering about it for years but no one would listen. The thing is that the spring was round. One side was the same as the other and I couldn't see how rotating it would make any difference. I asked another person on the line what they do when one failed and they said that they just retest it and it usually passed. The first lady could have gotten the same results by tugging on her left ear lobe yet she was completely convinced from years of observation and literally millions of samples that she had the answer and every one else was ****** for not seeing it.

She actually was angry and very insulted when I first tried to explain to her what was happening. Remember the discussion that went back and forth between Dr. Buttler and some others in a recent issue of "Professional Farrier" on the subject of what he refered to as fads?

I suppose that rather than demonstrating to her what was going on that I could have sold her a tool to make rotating the spring easier. She was already convinced that "traditional engineering was the problem" That's partially a joke but illustrates another point. There are times when we misinterpret our observations and times when people take advantage of anothers misinterpretation or even purposly lead them into it. Please note that I'm not making an accusation only stating a possibility.

BTW, the real problem was found and solved but it had nothing to do with the spring. It was an intermittent problem in the way the machine interpreted the input from the unit being tested. It was a 5 minute fix that was very hard to come to because of the reams of conflicting information, conflicting interests and false claims to wade through in order to get to anything meaningful. This situation seems the rule rather than the exception and when solving problems we should expect it.

[Mike Ferrara]

Good post Phil and you'll get no arguement from me.




"So many of the posts on this site seem written with the impression that "traditional" farriery is the blind lopping off of some foot and the nailing on of any old piece of metal with no regard to the health of the horse or the way they move."

When did I ever say that?

I didn't mean to imply that you personally said it but you can certaily find posts that as a blanket statement refer to "traditional farriery" without defining it. This is especially unconvincing when it comes from some one who isn't nor ever has been a farrier. Again I'm not specifically refering to you.

Of COURSE there are (thankfully) many farriers wh o DO care mosr about the foot ,worked that hard, study all the time, and DO get it. But still way too many who are so focused on the blacksmithing they completely miss the foot.

No doubt it does happen but at what frequency and why? One of my points is that I think that some are lumping bad farriery in and blaming traditional farriery.[/QUOTE]


Great, I wish more were like you. And the fellow who taught you probably would have never needed NB because he instinctively went with what the hoof needed. But most farriers nowadays don't get taught in school what is really right for the foot. [/QUOTE]

The next time I talk to him I'm going to ask his opinion. My prediction is that he's up on it.

I agree, they probably don't teach it in school.


NB does stand on it's own. It is the farriers who are seemingly stuck on tradition who force the issue into these discusions by continualy badmouthing it even though it is constantly growing in aceptance around the world.
NB has been around now for fifteen years or more. If it did not work it would not be continuing to grow at the rapid rate it is. The veterinarians who prescribe it more and more, the horse owners ,the farriers who keep asking for and coming to more NB clinics to keep learning it, and the horses themselves speak volumes. The testimonials that come into the EDSS office speak for the success of NB. And SO many of those horses had been previously shod in what anyone would consider very skilled farriery. Not messes. But the shoeing had missed the mark, Missed what the foot really needed to be sound.

I'm not stuck on anything. I want to hear everything about what you do, why and the results. By golly if it works for me too that's fantastic especially if I don't even have to pay you for it. Why would I turn down free help that makes me money just to prove a point? I know that some do though.


Who keeps numbers. I can only personally say that pretty much all the ones in my practice were previously shod by very competent farriers,using the same mehods I USED to. Now consider that I do not advertise, and I charge a LOT more than those fellows did, and the clients still stay with me. Why? Ask them I guess. Why pay 25 to 30 percent more a shoeing and stay with that long term ? must be a reason. They were shod by very competent farriers before me , and cheaper.

This is testimony to the quality of your work and the satisfaction of your customers, however every successful farrier who charges a lot could say the same.

Iam going to answer your question with a quesion. Is there data,controlled studies for example on how many more percent of horses are sounder in say ANY keg shoe as opposed to handmades? or StCroix eventers compared to kerkhearts? any study like that? Pretty much an impossible request.

The first part of the answer is to ask if there is a problem that will be solved by answering the question? It might be like having a preference for farriers who drive Chevy trucks instead of Fords. Such a study isn't at all impossible just possibly irrelevant.

Though some farriers DO understand the foot inside and out and really do apply what that foot needs, the majority unfortunately do not.

The term most here is a bit a bit of a jump. In my experience most people are not very good at what they do, period. That goes for engineers, car mechanics, doctors, lawyers...you name it. All that proves is that there are few truely gifted people or people who work hard enough to get that way. It proves nothing about the effectiveness of one methode over another and does nothing to define either. I've seen many "methods" that try to be a substitute for talent but I've never seen it work.

They follow the old theories of seeing hoof balance and fail to recognize the subtle and destructive hoof distortion that follows. Leading to eventual gait faults or lameness that is often attributed to other things. Also a lot of times subtle things that I consider lameness are not even noticed by the trainer or owner until they begime so big they cannot be ignored. I have been called in for a lot of horses who when the finally had enough lameness that it was noticed, the vet was called, it turns out that there was a long history of little stuff...stumbling at five weeks from the shoeing , not wanting to take a certain lead, sore in the croup etc. Most farriers would not think that those things were signs of something going subtly wrong in the feet. I do.

And for good reason. Especially failing to pick up a lead can be caused by lots of things and some are more likely than the shoeing. If you can help these horses or better yet help me to help them great but when some one tells me that a horse won't pick up a lead I'm not looking at the feet first.


You are right, it it nearly impossible to collect that type of data. But like I said before the consistant reports from owners, vets, other farriers over many years so far ,and the fact that vets and especially farriers are asking for more and more clinics says a whole lot.

It's not impossible to collect data it just hasn't been done. I agree that the fact that so many farriers want to learn about NB does says something. The first thing it says is that there are lots of farriers who are not ignoring the function of the feet. It also tells me that the farriers who trying to learn more and look for what works are the ones who are keeping horses sound and clients satisfied. Maybe this is real traditional farriery in action?

[calshoer]

"I didn't mean to imply that you personally said it but you can certainly find posts that as a blanket statement refer to "traditional farriery" without defining it. This is especially unconvincing when it comes from some one who isn't nor ever has been a farrier. Again I'm not specifically refering to you"

Thanks, but it brings up a point relevant the article in question. The author complains that so many farriers and veterinarians tout NB shoes as some cure all...that kind of thinking does not come from the people at EDSS but from OTHER people who have used them and are too enthusistic. And it ends up giving NB a bad name and turns some off to even looking furher int the system.


"Of COURSE there are (thankfully) many farriers who DO care more about the foot ,worked that hard, study all the time, and DO get it. But still way too many who are so focused on the blacksmithing they completely miss the foot. (Patty)
"No doubt it does happen but at what frequency and why? One of my points is that I think that some are lumping bad farriery in and blaming traditional farriery.[/QUOTE]"

So many critics of NB try to use the argument that he reason it is successful is that horses were just shod poorly before. From my own experience I have to disagree. Now here in rural Colorado I DO see some really **** poor shoeing that of course any good shoeing would help a lot . But (especally) when I was in the SF bay area I saw a lot of journeyman level work that was not helping the horse at all and often subtly (or grossly) laming him. These were often horses that the owner was jumping from vet to vet in desperation and finally came to one of the a vets I worked with who used NB and EDDS and who more thoroughly understood the foot. And in that area, the overall quality of shoeing was very high . I had some horses I did who had been previously done for a long time by certified journeymen and were not sound, finally became sound after NB shoeing.

"This is testimony to the quality of your work and the satisfaction of your customers, however every successful farrier who charges a lot could say the same"

Sure most owners are completely happy with their shoer. Some have truly sound horses, and some don't but don't see it. And that also brings to mind all the owners I have spoken to in person across the US who have in fact quit their highly qualified farriers for barefoot and self trimming, mostly out of frustration for continual low grade lameness that were not resolved with the shoeing.Those horses are for the mot part going better in boots and bareofoot. The sheer growth of the whole barefoot movement and the drive of horse owners for more education on their parts should be an eye opener that something is still wrong in the farrier trade and needs to change.

"Though some farriers DO understand the foot inside and out and really do apply what that foot needs, the majority unfortunately do not." (Patty)

"The term most here is a bit a bit of a jump."

I chose term 'majority' very carefully. It is my opinion. You certainly don't have to agree.


"Especially failing to pick up a lead can be caused by lots of things and some are more likely than the shoeing. If you can help these horses or better yet help me to help them great but when some one tells me that a horse won't pick up a lead I'm not looking at the feet first."

I ALWAYS go to the feet first in these cases because 90% of the time that is where the problem is originating, causing comensations up in the body somewhere.
Patty

[Andy Blevins]

Again I would like to thank you Phil for your directing me to this website. This was my introduction to the NB principles and I find it both informative and interesting. I am trying to learn all that I can. I plan on going to the AFA convention in Chattanooga Tn although I am BWFA certified. I know that may not be very popular here but the way I see it we get the basics when we graduate, what we do after that decides where we go and what we make out of our trade. Thanks again.
AB

[Phil Armitage]

Your welcome Andy. It will help a lot if you can attend a NB clinic, also attend an AFA precertification clinic. I have attended both and highly recommend both. I also purchased the NB DVD and tapes, they are great. Ride with all the Farriers you can and ask questions, I do not know a farrier that doesnt like to talk, if anything you might have to bring ear plugs after awhile. :)

I also recommend Adams Lameness in horses, Doug butlers books, Any AFA material for certification, Dr. Rooney's books, Dr. Rick Reddins books, Dr. Steven Ogrady's Web site, articles by Chris Pollitt and there are many many more I am sure. Thats a start anyway.

[Mike Ferrara]

Hey every one,

After some of the discussions we've had here (and I tend to jump in with both feet) and other things I've read...like the stuff on the hopeforsoundness site I would like to discuss the NB trim. Is this a good thread for it or should I take it someplace else? I thought I'd ask before I hijacked this one again.

[Phil Armitage]

I think you should start a new one on the Natural Balance forum.

[Bill Adams]

Hello Mike,
Love the story about the lady and the spring.
Reminds me of a local barrel horse trainer (so called). Every horse had to be shod with Diamond Rims, size O. Only. I held a St.Croix against the Diamond to show that they were exactly the same size and shape. Far be it though that fact, even solid steel fact, should get in the way of her tridition.
Ready to rock on the NB thread,
Bill

[Mike Ferrara]

Ready to rock on the NB thread,
Bill

I got caught up in some other things. I'll try to get something written later tonight or in the morning.