Barefoot for my horse???

[Helpmyhorse]

He is a 13 year old arabian/paint cross gelding and has been off/on lame since 2004, progressively getting worse.

He was completely sound from September 6 to November 21, 2006. On November 21 he got 2 degree wedges put on to put him in alignment. He was immediately off and got progressively worse. Vet came out and said to pull the wedges since that was the only change. He got better but still lame at trot on corners. Had his shoes pulled for navicular series of xrays on December 23. He was barefoot until today. Farrier watched him walk barefoot, not ouchy over rocks at all, but not landing heel first. She shod him and he was still not landing heel first.

This horse has djd in hocks (spur in lower left tarsus), changes in left stifle, and potentially the start of changes in right front above the coffin joint. He also has small holes in the navicular area.

[Helpmyhorse]

He also has the long toe/underrun heel deal that my farrier has done a good job in starting to correct. She measures the feet and he has made 1/4" improvements almost all the way around. His back feet are now good to go.

[Jeanie Connors]

Wow, well I am certainly not a vet, but can clearly see the holes in the navicular bone. It also looks to me like there's significant ossification of the lateral cartilages? (Not a vet, but that's what I see) There are clearly some severe changes that have gone on with your horse's feet, and collaberation between vet and farrier are going to be very important to maintain soundness.

If you want to try taking your horse barefoot, boots and pads are going to be important :) . I would very much recommend contacting someone in your area to talk with directly about your horse's feet and what can be done to help :) .

[Helpmyhorse]

Yes, he has significant sidebone. I am working with a farrier consultant and my farrier, a great vet, a chiro/accupuncturist, and a massage therapist. He has a great team, who work together, working on him, I'm just looking for more options. I could write a novel on what we've been through.

My farrier consultant said one last thing we could try is a rock and roll shoe, however, he also stated that if the vet/surgeon says it's ok, then he could go barefoot since he's being retired for a year.

It has been suggested that he may have an impacted bar, what are your thoughts on this?

Thank you!

[Jeanie Connors]

Hmm, impacted bar...I can't say as I've ever heard much about it. I imagine his bars would look "funkier" if one was impacted, but that's just speculation, and working from pictures which is not the way to go about it in any event ;) .

It really does sound like you've got a great team working for him, and keeping him bare is certainly worth a shot :) .

[Helpmyhorse]

Yes, I understand pictures aren't the best way :) I have a trimmer who is willing to come up for his next farrier appointment.

Thank you!!

[Dave Whitaker]

helpmyhorse:I am working with a farrier consultant and my farrier, a great vet, a chiro/accupuncturist, and a massage therapist.

OK... I'll bite.... what pray tell is a farrier consultant???????? (Please,please don't tell me that this is someone who tells the farrier what should be done but hasn't the faintest idea how to go about doing it?). I think my Dad called them "text book heros".

As far as the pics of your horse are concerned, the solar views of the feet don't look terrible at all and I have certainly seen worse radiographs.An attempt to go barefoot here may not be out of the question. What I think will be important is to pay attention to the feedback of the one, and perhaps most important, member of your team that you left off your list. Your horse.

Best of luck, Dave

[Helpmyhorse]

Thank you Dave, please be assured that my horse is ultimately the Captain. He didn't like the wedges, so I, the vet and farrier say no wedges. My problem is that I'm afraid to try anything new for fear it would hurt him more, hence my post, looking for info on barefoot and anyone who may have come across this somewhere and what they did to fix it.

I just call him a farrier consultant :) What sold me on him was that he told me he's seen a lot of lamenesses come into the clinic, and 90% were sound once the feet were addressed. I've been through 5 farriers in 2 years! Each of them would shoe as the vet prescribed once or twice then go back to what they wanted to do. To say I was frustrated would be quite the understatement. The vet loves his shoeing now. I loved it because he was SOUND for 3 months!!!

I appreciate your feedback... especially the part that you have seen worse xrays!

What do you (anyone) think of a horse that is the same soundness level with shoes or without?

Watching him in turnout, he is sound at the walk (just a TAD ouchy barefoot, but no headbobbing), when he canters (which he did barefoot in turnout -- rocks, clay and decomposed granite -- and for the vet when he was shod in the arena) he does flying lead changes every stride which he never does usually, at the trot he holds his head straight up in the air as high as he can get it... here I assume bilateral lameness.

He is ok walking on rocks (3/4" about 5 inches deep) barefoot, not even a flinch.

Thank you!

[belhaven]

Just a few comments or things I would consider were I in your 'shoes' ;)

As far as using a barefoot trimmer vs. a farrier, just be aware that all are not created equal...just as there are good and bad farriers, there are also good and bad trimmers.

Sometimes owners considering barefoot somehow feel a barefoot trimmer will have all the answers-not so!

Just make sure that you check references and speak to clients before having a trimmer (or new farrier) work on your horse.

You mentioned something about 'impacted bars'-the ONLY time I have heard this term is when it comes from those that use a certain barefoot method-the method is the Strasser method.

Now, that name and method can really open a can of worms...and of course, as I said, not all trimmers are created equal.

The Strasser method sort of stands alone and is not like any other method or trim style (or at least not to my knowledge).

In addition to Strasser, trimmers can also be certified through AANHCP-an organization uses the wild horse as a model for trimming. Jaime Jackson is the 'big name' attached to this method.

Pete Ramey also has a big following and has a list of trimmers on his site. He was affiliated with AANHCP, but I heard that he no longer is.

I am getting certified through KC LaPierre's program...so of course I have my bias :D KC has a list of his certified EPs (Equine Podiatrists) on his website.

And of course there are trimmers (good and bad)not certified by anyone at all...

Since you mentioned that term 'impacted bars' I just wanted to give you a little heads up that it would be a good know what kind of trimmer you are dealing with if you decide to go with a trimmer over a farrier. The results can be as difference as night and day between the different 'methods.'

Best of luck and hope you find someone to help you with your horsey.

[Dave Whitaker]

I am relieved that the "farrier consultant" term is your own tag........ I was concerned that all the failed weekend clinic "professional" trimmers had banned together and invented a new way for them to get paid for something.

I looked back through your photos and mind you, theses are only general opinions that I hold from experiances I have had with similar horses. First, the shod photos that you posted show a foot that I think could have been trimmed a little differently to bring the heels back a little more, and I would have certainly chose a different style shoe that would have allowed me to move the breakover back. You have the radiographs available to help establish the placement of the breakover in relation to the tip of the coffin bone. (I would like to see it just forward, maybe 1/4 inch, of the tip of PIII). Your broken back pastern alignment might be helped with the some form of frog support, ( you did not indicate how the horse responds to hoof testers, this would certainly make a difference as to how I would proceed). A frog support pad like the Natural Balance or the Myron Mclane pads along with an impression material can usually help realign these joints in short order. So if I were to shoe this horse, that's what I think I would try.... a combination of enhancing breakover, (both from the toe as well as medially and laterally because of the sidebone issues), and provide some form of active frog support.

Now barefoot...... His frog's seem to be quite healthy and the caudal,(rear), portion of his foot might be in fairly good shape. Short trimming cycles, keeping after the heels so as to prevent them from lifting the back of the foot off the ground, and chasing the roll on his toe back as far as you can to enhance breakover, may make him surprisingly comfortable. The pastern alignment can improve with this method, though I have found that it is usually a much slower process that with the help of shoes/frog support pads.

I am not surprised that he does well barefoot on rocks, as your radiographs show excellent sole depth..... I would be sure that your farrier is taking what exfoilating sole he can and is carefully identifying the interface with the live sole so that he can maximize his trim and help the foot "move back" to where it belongs in a timely manner.

I hope some of this helps..... and remember, these are generalities based on a few photos of a horse I have never seen. It is in no way a substitute for the eyes you have available there. Good luck... Dave

[Helpmyhorse]

Thank you both!

Bellhaven, I don't believe the trimmer I have lined up is strasser, but I could be wrong... she has seen many horses go sound after trimming bars tho, so she might be. One horse, not trimmed by her but in the same fashion, was going to be put down and that horse is now riding sound.

Dave,

He never tested sore to heel testers until December 2, hence the navicular series...He does have dental impression material packing and frog support pads (I don't know what kind, only that they are green).

I was afraid of taking his shoes off for just the reason you stated, that it would prolong the changing of his weightbaring/breakover.

I know the "consultant" has spoken with my vet, but I think the vet is still waiting to speak with the surgeon before he calls me. The "consultant" did say that he was glad I put the shoes back on after talking to the vet.

[Helpmyhorse]

For some reason I thought I lost the last post so I reposted ...


I've put up another picture of his foot from September. Is this more along the line of what you're thinking of?

[belhaven]

Yes I am familiar with equinextion-if I recall from her site she uses theories used by both Jaime and Strasser-so if the trimmer follows those theories that would also explain the use of the term impacted bars.

[Helpmyhorse]

Also, if this is a soft tissue issue, would shoes be better than barefoot?

I think he broke a gate latch the day he was shod... at first I thought it was the horse in the turnout next to him, but now I'm wondering...

[Helpmyhorse]

Bellhaven, if I had to trust my horse to a trimmer she would be the one. In your opinion, if I did try barefoot, and it didn't work within (how long would I give it?) Would having shoes put on fix what was done?

[Phil Armitage]

I think in this situation useing EDSS would be the way to go. This will help your farrier and Vet figure out how to keep your horse comfortable. Nice thing about EDSS is the ease of use and makeing changes. Information about it can be found on the Natural Balance Web site. Purchaseing the instrcutional video and understanding how to properly apply this shoe is important.

The trimming and shoeing looks good. Wedgeing and frog support to gain a toe first landing might work if rails are used like on the EDSS shoes. The rails can easly be removed and changed. Also frog support can be removed or added. Nice shoe for figureing things out.

Good luck.

[Helpmyhorse]

We've tried the EDSS, no go... my farrier did suggest a rock and roll shoe if all else fails tho... he said he's seen a lot of horses do well in it. Thank you!

[belhaven]

I am probably not the one to ask about barefoot vs. shoes :)

I personally really believe in what KC teaches-and it goes far beyond just trimming a horse and hoping it will work out without shoes.

The focus is on hoof balance and a very organized rehab program that develops the structures of the hoof...and this can involve owner commitment (things like handwalks on terrain suitable for the foot-just one example).

Of course if the environment is not correct for allowing the hoof to heal or if the owner can not commit to the program the EP recommends, then it is not right to ask a horse to gimp around in the name of barefoot.

I am not a farrier so I am not qualified to offer suggestions on shoeing protocol or how successful it is.

[Phil Armitage]

We've tried the EDSS, no go... my farrier did suggest a rock and roll shoe if all else fails tho... he said he's seen a lot of horses do well in it. Thank you!

Just currious as to what you saw when trying EDSS? What size rails did you use and for how long? It seems the on and off soreness and increase of discomfort when raiseing the angle could be great information for your farrier and vet in locateing the problem. MRI could help pin point the cause of pain. Things like suspensory ligament, colateral ligaments, impar ligament.

I have never used the Scott Morrison Roller Motion shoe if that is the one your talking about, however I have heard great things about the shoe. It eases breakover around the parimeter of the entire foot and similar to the mechanics of a bannana shoe as it also rocks back. Would be interesting if this helps your horse become more comfortable.

Considering that the source of pain is unknown if it were my horse I would be reluctant to put him into any work until you figure it out. If a ligemant is strained or damaged only time will help it out. Just day to day turn out and any movement at all exasperates the issue. Could be a sprain in addition to changes to the navicular bone, lateral cartiladge and joints.

Please keep us posted, I am interested in the results of different shoes and trimming.

Going barefoot depending on the problem may not be enough to reduce strain on damaged ligements. The benefit of a shoe designed to reduce strain will help a lot.

Your farrier's work looks great, if this were a situation of poor shoeing then the barefoot alternative would be better, however I do not see a problem with your farriers work.

[Helpmyhorse]

Thank you Bellhaven, I only have a couple of acres, but he does have rock, clay, dg, and his soft stall, he could choose where to walk, he chooses rock. I appreciate your input :)

Thank you Phil, I don't know enough to answer your question re: the edss ... sorry!

It has already been decided that he is retired for at least one year, no work at all, regardless of soundness. However, he does have access to his 3/4 acre pasture. Luckily there's grass in it ...

If he hurts he will not move out unless asked. I just was down there and asked him to trot a few steps, he wasn't happy, BUT he wasn't lame either. This on the straight on rocks. I couldn't tell how he was landing, however, will try walking him in the arena once it dries out a bit.

If I had to guess, it would be the impar ligament... isn't that the smallest most hard to get to one? Just because figuring out this gem of a horse is not easy :)

I'm guessing we're going to go with coffin joint injections and ultrasound next.

I will update this post when I hear anything, hopefully soon.

[calshoer]

Do you have pictures of the EDSS that was applied to your horse? the reason I ask is because if the farrier trimmed the foot in the same manner I see them trimmed here, he could not posibly have followed the EDSS instructions.
In order to purchase EDSS components, the farrier is *required* to have the instruction video, which goes into painstaking detail of the correct trim. Failing to trim the foot correctly will often result in less than desireable results.
Perhaps he used natural balance shoes, (made by EDSS) but not the whole EDSS system? There are differences. If he does have the video I suspect he did not follow the instructions, if he trimmed the foot the same way they are trimmed here.
The trim is a an issue. The heels are way too talland terminate to ofar forward. And one foot appears to be possibly out of balance medial-laterally, which could account for the lameness after shoeing. Especialy with sidebone.
As well one toe looks maybe trimmed too short. That too could cause lameness issues after shoeing due to sole pressure.
It is very important to trim heels down *before* deciding if wedging is needed in the shoeing. .
Some horses do better with the trimmed heels and no wedges, due to the frog being on the ground more solidly and therefore able to better support the coffin joint, while some will need wedges to align the joint. But only AFTER those heels get properly addressed.
Patty

[Helpmyhorse]

Thank you Patty, it wasn't the current farrier that tried the edss, so I honestly don't know. I don't think I have pictures with the edss, but I'll look. It was when the previous farrier was on him that he seemed to be lame more often.

My current farrier has only been on him (with the assistance of the "consultant") since September. I put in a picture of his right front when he was shod then because Dave was also suggesting some things and I wanted a better idea of what he was talking about. This is where I'm assuming you believe he had too short a toe, however, he went sound. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The pictures ****her down (I dated them in the name of the pictures) are most recent, taken 3 days after the xrays were taken on December 23.

We are trying to get healthy heel on this horse. He was severely underrun/underslung. The differences in the measurements taken in September and November show that this current way of shoeing is making improvements. If you like, I can post the differences, I can also post pics of how he mapped out the foot.

Let me know if you would like to see pictures of how he was shod before my "consultant" came to help us out if you like. It will scare you tho, it scares me!

I know it's hard to do this by pictures, but I do appreciate you all taking your time in trying to help my horse :)

[Andalucian]

[QUOTE=Helpmyhorse]He is a 13 year old arabian/paint cross gelding and has been off/on lame since 2004, progressively getting worse.QUOTE]
Has your horse been rested in this period at all? Apart from the other excellent input you've had on this thread, I would observe that side bone can cause lameness in itself. Once you have addressed the balance issues, a period of rest for the foot to stabilise would be good. Side bone will harden over time and then in most cases won't cause any further lameness.

p.s. don't employ any trimmer who talks about "impacted bars" :eek:

[Helpmyhorse]

He was worked when he was sound, when he wasn't sound, he's just checked to see if there was progress or deterioration... not working him is a problem because if he doesn't work he gets FAT. So I'll have to starve the poor guy for the next year :(

That said, he will not even be checked for the next year. I may take him for a walk, but that's about it, and only if the vet says its ok.

Thank you for confirming my thought that his feet may need to stabilize. I still haven't heard from the surgeon, but he is landing more flat now, rather than toe first.... only heel first 20% of the time. Fingers crossed that he just needs some time and he hasn't broken anything!!

Thank you!

[calshoer]

The pic I was concerned about the short toe is RF122606. It looks over- trimmed across the toe.
The LF122606 seems to have more thickness of sole (the depth around the frog apex is greater), but the heels are still quite tall and *maybe* uneven height.
Patty

[calshoer]

This is a mild example of an "impacted bar" . In natural balance we just call it a bent bar. It is from to much heel, bending the bar as the tall heel pushes forward under load. The heekls need to be trimmed down more and the bar material removed until it i straight. NOT gutting the whole bar as Strasser does, just watching as layers are pared off, stopping when the bend is goneand the bar is straight. Some bars will have *slight* curve, that is normal. But the kink in the middle is not.

[Helpmyhorse]

Thanks Calshoer, but if he lowers the heel, wouldn't he then be even more out of alignment? I've always been told he has NO heel and that he needs healthy heel (not underun etc)... my computer at home is acting up, but if it stays connected to the internet, I will try to upload more pics so you can see how far he has come. He's better, but still ouchy on turns. Buting him at night so he can get some relief.

Thank you so much!

[Helpmyhorse]

From September 2006

Left front
low heel
inside wall high
outside heel collapsed and run under
inside heel collapsed and run under


Right Front
low heel
inside wall high and flared
inside heel collapsed and run under

He had 3 degree wedge rim pads, no frog or heel support whatsoever.