Pulling foot!

[HOSSBOSS]

I'm getting very fusterated with a Horse I shoe! She Is constantly pulling her front feet forward when I'm under her. I get set to start working on the feet & bam! She pull's her feet forward with great force!! I feel the Horse Is only doing this cause she would rather not be bothered by me & now It's become a big problem since It happens every few seconds/minutes. I'm not hurting her nor Is she hurting, It's Just she want's her way. I've even tried smacking her a bit on her belly as I say STAND STILL!!! But It doesn't work at all & the owner think's I'm being hurtful towards her. But the owner has no clue here. What could I do differently to stop this? She Is very strong & will pull her front feet out straight almost striking the owner & then cements her feet to the ground. I will also ad that I'm very strong to hold her, but she alway's win's this battle! Any Info?

[smitty88]

Hi Hossboss
is she good with her hinds or the same as fronts
how many times have you worked on her

[HOSSBOSS]

The Horse Is better with the back feet, there's no pulling there. I've worked on her several times & she get's worse each time.

[Bill Adams]

It sounds as if the owner needs to hold the foot for you.
With out putting your self at risk charge double or triple for the shoeing (charge them till you like them).
What you have here is an out of control horse that would be fine with about two or three boots in the gut. That of course is not PC but not as severe as her pasture mate would adminster. You could run her backwards every time she dose it but that takes time.
One trick I've used is to quickly and with out the client seeing is to poke them with the hammer claws. A couple times like that and you here the owner saying "See! Mommy knew Snookems would be a good girl for the nice man if Mommy said no cookies tonite."
Bill

[calshoer]

Most horse who do that are either a bit uncomfortable, or have been caused some pain by a pst shoeing(trim close or close nails etc). They get very protective.
Something you need to check yourself on is whether you have her foot in *her* optimal comfort spot. Her "sweet spot"
In many horses this spot is WAY under the belly.Sometimes nearly crossed over behind the other leg. Many horses are so tight in their shoulders that the can't mechanically pick up the leg pointing straight behind the shoulder, it must tip inward,and certainly pulled not outward even a little bit. So even if the place you put her foot seems to be a decent spot , it may still be too far out for the horse.
To find her sweet spot, take the foot up and dont put it in your knees. Move it around like a stick shift in a car. When you find "neutral" the spot where it is loose and freea and offers no resistance to either side, that is your spot. No where else. Getting your knees to that place without moving her foot out of it may mean doing some yoga on your part but that is what it takes on horses who cant have the foot held out to the side at all. By doing this, I can get a lot of horses done that were foot pullers for other farriers but they don't pull from me. It takes a few tries for them to realize Im not going to crank on them the least little bit, but they eventually get it and relax.

If her problem is fear is previous pain from trimming or shoeing,(sole pressure, nail quick whatever) then she may get over it eventually as you shoe her and do not over trim her or quick her. Sometimes a bit of dormosedan administered by the vet the first two shoeings gets them over that fear. As long as you don't do the same thing to her as the last guy. I ALWAYS give the foot pulling horse the benefit of the doubt first, and it usually pays off quickly . Just cause you dont think she is experiencing some kind of discomfort doesnt mean she isnt.
Patty

[Gary_Miller]

First of all. Smacking her and telling her to "stand still" will not accomplish anything as she does not speak or understand english. Although it sure does feel good doesn't it. :D

The horse needs some ground training wether its my you or someone else it needs done. This behavior will not stop without the training.

One method that I have found is to take the lead rope from the owner. This works best with a long lead I like 16 ft in lenght.

1. Find a large enough area where you can get the horse moving.

2. Place the lead where you can get a hold of it quickly. I like my back pocket or I wedge it between my knife handle and chaps on my out side leg so the rope comes behind me. That way I can grab the rope and make the horse move off with out get myself tangled in the rope.

3. Go to work as usual. However since you know that the horse will pull it foot as soon as you place it between you legs be ready to make her move as soon as it happens.

4. When she pulls her foot. Grap the rope, smack her on the rump and get her moving in circles around you at a good pace. Have her move in one direction then the other. Just a few laps will work. I usually only do 4 or 5 unless the horse is reluctent then we do enough to get the horse moving right.

5. After a few laps. Stop the horse and pull her back to you. Don't go to her make her come to where you are. This is the resting place. If she stand still here she can rest otherwise she gets to move out on the end of the rope.

6. Go back to work as if nothing happened. If she pulls her foot agian do it all over.

I will guarentee you that after a few times of doing this the horse will stand still with the lead rope sitting on the ground in front of you. And will be better the next time you shoe her. It may take a couple of shoeings with you doing this before the horse to stops all togeather but she will adventually stop.

I have found that this method work well for me on young horses as well as the older ones. Ever horse I have used this method on will stand ground tied while I trim or shoe.


Good luck.
Gary

[Phil Armitage]

I'm getting very fusterated with a Horse I shoe!

Don't let it frustrate you, one thing that helps you is to charge more and do not loose your cool. This is a problem that needs to be solved if it can. It takes time so charge.


I feel the Horse Is only doing this cause she would rather not be bothered by me & now It's become a big problem since It happens every few seconds/minutes.

You might be right about that or it may be a situation like Patty said. Gary's idea to work the horse is a good one however this is training that takes time. Bills idea also works very well, quicker takes less time also training. I wonder what the owner lets her get away with when she picks out her feet? If she/he picks out her feet? Owners are suppose to train there horses to hold there feet up.


I'm not hurting her nor Is she hurting, It's Just she want's her way.

Maybe she is sore or afraid or just being a dink. One thin for sure is she is a mare and she may be an alfa mare. An alfa mare can be a handfull, sometimes the best you can do is compromise.


What could I do differently to stop this? She Is very strong & will pull her front feet out straight almost striking the owner & then cements her feet to the ground. I will also ad that I'm very strong to hold her, but she alway's win's this battle! Any Info?

Ask the owner to give it a shot and see how the owner handles it and observe what happens. Don't say anything just observe.

Good luck, you got a lot of good advice here.

If all else fails, maybe she will do better with another farrier. Who knows, mabey you remind her of someone she does not trust and respect. This happens.

[Derin Foor]

one word....DORMOSEDAN

all the training ideas are fine and good but who's gonna pay you for your time ?

we are so willing to do everything EXCEPT protect US !!!

when this puke hurts you and you are out of commission, the owner will forget your name by the next shoeing

tell the owner to get a tranq or a new farrier...now the ball is in her court

JMO

Derin

[calshoer]

Gary training them may seem the right thing to do but I have found that unfortunately nowadays the horse owners sometimes get so offended by correct humane training (just like you suggested) that you get fired. And bad mouthed.
I have been fired a few times over the years because I thoughtfully trained on someones horse ,in the same manner you describe.
And even been fired after I had carefully explained to the owner how I was going to help the horse by schooling it , before I even did it.
One recent client saw the little spanking of little sweety's butt with the end of the rope when their little sweety tried to kick when asked to move over .The lady had a cow and fired me. And called two of her lady friends and told them I was abusive and THEY fired me.
Its a touchy situation nowadays especially with uninformed lady and newby horse owners. I find that if the horse truly needs manners then I'm better off leaving than getting fired and having mommy call all her friends and say I abused poor snookums. Id rather she tell her friends that I said snookums was too much of a brat and I had quit her.
Patty

[Gary Hill]

True horses don't speak but they can understand commands in several differant languages.

[ranchoblanco]

I'll be shoeing a horse like that in the morning. The first time i shod her she pulled all that stuff and it was miserable. This will be the fourth time i've shod her and what works with this particular horse is keeping her foot between my ankles- which is her "sweet spot" so to speak.

Mike

[Wade_Shoes]

I know it sounds silly, but on horses that pull the front legs from me I stand in front of them to work on them. Instead of putting their leg between mine, I put their knee on my belly button with one arm one the inside and one one outside, with their leg sittinig on top of both of mine. You can give more resistance that way and no chance of getting nails pulled into you. Just make sure you have a tight fit of their knee against your belly or you will be singing the high notes for a while. And if they do manage to push their leg forward it pushes you out of the way instead of sucking you under their body.
Wade

[Gary_Miller]

Patty I agree. I have also been fired for doing what I do. Most of the time though it is after I have worked the horse so hard that it was driping in sweat. The own thought I was abusing her horse. Of coarse I tried to explane that it was because the horse was out of shape because of the lack of work. I really did not care if she talked as any of her friends I would not want to have in my client base anyway.

True horse people don't have a problem with what I do. For the horse owner who are of the mushy type do be mean to snooky. All you need to do is tell them that you practice "Natural Horsemanship" for horses that have problems cooperating with the farrier. Since the mushy types tend to like the natural way of training they usually don't mind at all what I do. I also helps if I drag out my Clinten Anderson training halter.

I also agree that sometimes it the way you hold the foot. I always work with holding the leg diffrent before I do anything else.

One otherthing to look at is how is the handler holding the horse. Sometimes they hold so tight that it is like a restrant, and with some horses its to much to be restrained on both the head and the leg.

Example, Just last week I had a horse who started pulling her foot right away when I started working. No matter what I tried the horse would pull her foot right out from between my leg. Soon I said enough of this. I took the lead from the handler and went back to work. Low and be hold the leg pulling stopped right away and the horse stood ground tie while I shod the front feet. It was pretty weird that the horse stop acting up once it was not held so tightly.


Gary

[Forgewizard]

I've got a couple of horses that tried and still try that with me.


Firstly you have GOT to get it across to the horse owner that this is unacceptable behavior, and while you will b willing to work with the horse to keep her comfy, if you can determine that this action is more attitude than discomfort, SOMEONE, preferrably YOU has to discipline the horse!

Ususally I'll tell them, "I get to play bad cop - you are good cop and sometimes I'll put the horse under arrest!"

Like Patty noted find the horse's comfy zone. But I wouldn't put her leg on my knee, or put myself in a position to get hurt. Just ask her to pick up the hoof normally. Better yet, get the owner to pick up the hoof and see what the horse does. Then ask the owner to put the hoof in the farrier position.

If horsey does o.k. in picking position but not in farrier position, then horsey is probably tight or sore. You gotta get shorter and scrunch under more! Or use a jackstand of some sort.

I've got a few tight horses that their leg will fold at the knee but it bends inwards. Others cannot bend the knee and I do them with just a relaxed fetlock, sometimes resting on top of my steel toes.

If you rule put pain, conformaretion or tightness issues and it is just attitude. I use a chain of command and it hasn't failed yet! Some learn quick, others not so quick.

Either way charge more for working on the painful horse and therefore having to take more time. And Charge even more for training.
Depending on your time and customer relationship, sometimes just doing a "handling" visit a couple times works well for these kinds of horses.

f the owner insists on limiting what you can do with thte ose, then pack your tools and go tell them you'd rather lose a little business than get KICKED out of business!

Good luck!

[SlowShoe]

I have one horse who does this horribly. I have foudn a way to keep him from doign it. Its quite simple, but may not work for everyone. I dont hold his leg between my legs. Thats it. Its a pain to work on this horse, but its easier than catching a nail, or constantly fighting. What I do is if im working on the near side, I put the foot on the outside of the leg closests to him. Its kind of tricky, but he doesnt pull. I would love to get a 'Stall Jack' and try that with him to have the foot more stable.

[Phil Armitage]

Patty I agree. I have also been fired for doing what I do. Most of the time though it is after I have worked the horse so hard that it was driping in sweat. The own thought I was abusing her horse. Of coarse I tried to explane that it was because the horse was out of shape because of the lack of work. I really did not care if she talked as any of her friends I would not want to have in my client base anyway.

True horse people don't have a problem with what I do. For the horse owner who are of the mushy type do be mean to snooky. All you need to do is tell them that you practice "Natural Horsemanship" for horses that have problems cooperating with the farrier. Since the mushy types tend to like the natural way of training they usually don't mind at all what I do. I also helps if I drag out my Clinten Anderson training halter.

I also agree that sometimes it the way you hold the foot. I always work with holding the leg diffrent before I do anything else.

One otherthing to look at is how is the handler holding the horse. Sometimes they hold so tight that it is like a restrant, and with some horses its to much to be restrained on both the head and the leg.

Example, Just last week I had a horse who started pulling her foot right away when I started working. No matter what I tried the horse would pull her foot right out from between my leg. Soon I said enough of this. I took the lead from the handler and went back to work. Low and be hold the leg pulling stopped right away and the horse stood ground tie while I shod the front feet. It was pretty weird that the horse stop acting up once it was not held so tightly.


Gary

Gary who is resposible if the horse is injured during one of these training lessons? Risk of injury is pretty good considering tight circles and poor conditioning. It is better for all involved to just walk if you can't get the horse to cooperate with a quicker method. Drug em and charge em, the owner will wake up after you hit the pocked book a few times. :)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I'd also like to suggest that you network to find a good trainer and when faced with these sort of problems help your customer by providing a referral to someone who can assist and who has full public liability insurance and the time and skills to help the customer help you.

[Gary Hill]

Phil when you say "drug em and then charge em" , kinda kills your day waiting for a vet to show up to do it? Here it is techniquely illegel to administer drugs without a licence? How goes it in Maine?

[Phil Armitage]

Phil when you say "drug em and then charge em" , kinda kills your day waiting for a vet to show up to do it? Here it is techniquely illegel to administer drugs without a licence? How goes it in Maine?

Gary glad you aske about that. I agree it is virtually impossible to line up the Vet. It is also illegal to administer drugs without a licence in Maine and NH. I quess it is legal for the owner to do it. However I preffer it is a Vet doing the injecting on a horse that I will be getting under. I have rarely had a horse tranqued for shoeing. So when I say drug em and charge em. It is such an bother and costly proper training and effort on the owners part starts to look like a better option.

I operate on a simple rule. Horse needs to be good for the farrier and do not spend more than 15 min. to get one to stand safely and relaxed for the job. I know there exception because of age young and old, lameness, new horse at the barn, nervous horses. I find determineing what you might be faced with reading horses can be accessed rather quickly and a proper plan can be discussed. If the owner looks like they have no clue and is not cooperateing or trust becomes an issue, I just simply pass. Not worth the headaches and I am too buisy as it is.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Not sure about there but the sedative you mentioned is licenced for oral administration.

Here every single equine is passported and has to have a record of drugs administered on its passport but even here an owner can obtain those sedatives directly from the vet and give them about an hour before the farrier is due.

I presume clients book appointments so this can be organised in advance.

[Phil Armitage]

I'd also like to suggest that you network to find a good trainer and when faced with these sort of problems help your customer by providing a referral to someone who can assist and who has full public liability insurance and the time and skills to help the customer help you.

Exactly what I do. I have a list of trainers and Vets in my planner that I can give an owner. I think this is the best and safest way to help out horse owners. My insurance is very specific about what activities I am doing. Training is another specialty and if something happens while I am training a horse to stand for shoeing it can get sticky. I also find that barn managers preffer to leave the training to the trainer not the farrier. The barn mangers and owners I work for appreciate and trust I can handle a horse and use good judgement while I am shoeing a horse. This is the way it should be, trust, good judgement and don't become a risk for the barn. There is enough things barn owners and managers have to deal with, they should look forward to your visit not loose sleep over it.

Okay I am getting on a soap box, I will stop now. Anyone else see this.

[Bill Adams]

First of all. Smacking her and telling her to "stand still" will not accomplish anything as she does not speak or understand english.
Gary

I know of several hundred horses that it's worked quite well with. Even horses that are sore will stand if you make them, for their own good. This is very "mean horseshoer" stuff, and can't be done with all clients, then we're back to charging.
Also if you have to hang around waiting for a vet, charge.
I know several new yong Farriers who realy don't belive that one can get a horse to stand because they have been raised on benicedness.
I deal with horses as they deal with each other, that language they understand.
More later,
Bill

[Gary_Miller]

Gary who is resposible if the horse is injured during one of these training lessons? Risk of injury is pretty good considering tight circles and poor conditioning.The method I use if done in a open area with at least a 16ft lead is pretty safe. The horse does not have to be running to accomplish this. Just has to be moving. Mostly what I'm doing is gaining the horses respect. As well teaching the horse it easier to stand still than move around. I have neve seen a horse injured by doing this.
It is better for all involved to just walk if you can't get the horse to cooperate with a quicker method.
The most this method has ever taken me to get a horse to stand still is 20 min.
Drug em and charge em, the owner will wake up after you hit the pocked book a few times. :)
This means rescheduling a time when the vet can be there or you having to meet the the client and vet at the vet clinic. Both are a big headach and takes lots more time. And the horse does not learn a thing.
I would rather work with the horse for a while to get it to cooperate. Then the next time I'm out I usually have a farly decent horse to work with.

To each his own.

Gary

[Gary Hill]

Is it the realm of a Farrier actually need to go to the trouble of training the horse? I have drilled it into my clients heads that if they are raising babies then we start their first trim at four months and continue . Sure, I want to be the first to start on their feet so I can do the "imprinting".They must first be halter broke by the owner first tho! If they go off to a sale and bring home a puke then it is on them to get the animal undercontrol. NMJ= Not my job , to teach them to stand. There are five good ones waiting to stand and be trimmed or shod while ya waste your time on training. JMO, Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Is it the realm of a Farrier actually need to go to the trouble of training the horse? I have drilled it into my clients heads that if they are raising babies then we start their first trim at four months and continue . Sure, I want to be the first to start on their feet so I can do the "imprinting".They must first be halter broke by the owner first tho! If they go off to a sale and bring home a puke then it is on them to get the animal undercontrol. NMJ= Not my job , to teach them to stand. There are five good ones waiting to stand and be trimmed or shod while ya waste your time on training. JMO, Gary

Gary your speaking from many years of experience and I agree with you. I think it takes time for a farrier to figure this out, we need the work and can't wait for the phone to ring. When we first start out we have the time to be flexable and take extra time with horses and clients. Over time we get better clients and a full schedule, no time for things like training. My mentor always said he is not a trainer and now I know why he said this.

I agree with Patty, getting involved with ground work on someone elses horse is more trouble than it is worth. I had a client that fired me for working with her horse like this. I got the horse to tie and stand nice just with ground work, never lost my cool, was patient and actually was pretty proud of myself. She was very upset, did not understand what took place and told several of her friends how abusive I was with her horse. She liked to feed her horse to stand for me and the horse would pull away and break the ties. I ended up looseing a few horses over that deal and then learned it was for the better anyways. Over the years I noticed for every horse I lost it seemed I gained more and better ones. Someone on here a few years ago mentioned letting go the bad ones and clearing your books for the good ones. Very good advice.

Today is nice day, no horses to work on. Got new tires on my truck, had lunch with my wife and now sitting at the computer where it is nice and warm. Cold and snowy day today, with the wind the temp is in the single digits.

[John Emsley]

Folks, some very good advice! Dorsedan works if client will go for it, but it won't teach the horse for the next time. Nine times out of ten owners don't appreciate our attempts at training and will do what Patty referred to, YOU'RE FIRED! but not to our face, to anyone that'll listen to their edited version of what took place. :rolleyes: "Imprinting" works great, but as we all know, that is to be done at birth, not months later. :) None of us like to loose a client, but often a situation like this results in our efforts being unappreciated and our safety compromised, to say nothing of the damage to our reputation the edited version can do. Even being diplomatic, there will be those that think "you just don't have it". You'll probably be around long after they have gotten out of horses. :)
Wade, I not only winced when reading your holding method but my voice went up 2 octaves. :D

[Wade_Shoes]

Wade, I not only winced when reading your holding method but my voice went up 2 octaves. :D

John,
I said it would sound silly, and to someone thats not seen it I can see why. Its something that works for me, and I have yet to get hurt (maybe yet is the key word there). Its also a very strenuous possition to be in and I am sure with a little more wear on my body I'll decide its not worth the strain. Like I said, works for me; it may not for others.
Wade

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Wade, I winced to because I do the very same thing. Had a mare that pulled with left front only and had to do the foot that way. Now though, I use a hoof cradle to put the front foot in and take a lot of strain off of me. It's still a bit of a compromising position, but is workable. My hoof stand/cradle also goes down to about six inches from the ground and works very well with this position on some old arthritic horses. I haven't been hurt in this position yet either, but it doesn't stop me from worrying the whole time I'm doing it.

[Bill Adams]

Although I usualy beat them into submistion, I had my apron made long, almost to my anckles, and can hold the foot real low and under the horse for their comfort.
Another trick is to tie a rope around the leg and throw the end over the neck and have someone hold it till the horse wants to give up, but that's kind of a bit too western for most stables today.
Bill

[Forgewizard]

I did do a paso gelding a few years back that didn't have any issues picking up the hinds, or letting you under him. But as soon as you had him settled across your thighs, he'd SIT down!

Totally and attitude thing with him. No pain anywhere.

SO I put himin a scotch hobble ( well my version of one anyway) looped a fat rope around his pastern a couple times, then up around his neck and hiked the hoof forward and off the ground about 4 inches. Just enough that the rope was suspending the leg but if he hunkered down on the offside limb he COULD get the toe of this hoof to the ground.

So with the leg suspended I proceeded to hove him all over the barnyard! He hoped around a bit three legged then decided to chill out. I got under him and the stoopid nag tried to sit on me again! Some horses are just slow learners. SO I happily repeated his kangroo training and he decided he really COULD stand three legged quite well!

[tbloomer]

I'm getting very fusterated with a Horse I shoe! She Is constantly pulling her front feet forward when I'm under her. I get set to start working on the feet & bam! She pull's her feet forward with great force!! I feel the Horse Is only doing this cause she would rather not be bothered by me & now It's become a big problem since It happens every few seconds/minutes. I'm not hurting her nor Is she hurting, It's Just she want's her way. I've even tried smacking her a bit on her belly as I say STAND STILL!!! But It doesn't work at all & the owner think's I'm being hurtful towards her. But the owner has no clue here. What could I do differently to stop this? She Is very strong & will pull her front feet out straight almost striking the owner & then cements her feet to the ground. I will also ad that I'm very strong to hold her, but she alway's win's this battle! Any Info?Have you ever seen a dominant horse go make a submissive horse stand still? Think about it. The way that horses dominate (assume leadership over) other horses is by making them move, NOT by making them stand still.

So, how do you use that information to your advantage? Try this. Have the horse owner hold the horse while you pick up the foot. As soon as the horse makes the slightest movement to pull its foot away, the owner must be ready to make the horse back up - fast and hard. It doesn't matter what the owner has to do the get the horse to back up, but they must be preapred to do it - even if it means kicking the horse in the shins, punching it in the nose, or shanking it with a chain. The response to the horse pulling its hoof away (or making any attempt) must be immediate and the handler must be prepared to do whatever it takes to make the horse move back - at least 3 steps.

So far when I have encountered this situation it turns out in one of two ways:

The owner is unable to make the horse back up - because they are afraid of the horse. When they do try to make the horse back up, the horse walks over them. At this point I tell them I will not work on the horse until they are able to get the horse to back up 3 steps without taking the slack out of the lead rope or inflicting any pain. 'nuther words, I make it THEIR PROBLEM because they created the problem by teaching their horse that they (the owner) are lower in the pecking order.
Once the owner has put themselves in the "FRAME OF MIND" that Dobbin must BACKUP OR DIE. Dobbin realizes that he should no longer test "mommy's" patience because "mommy" ainn't taking his c r a p no more. Therefore, Dobbin does not try to take his foot away, because he "saw the writing on the wall."
Remember this: Leadership and herd dominance is held by the "horse" that makes all the other horses MOVE. If every time a horse decides to move any part of its body the LEADER makes the horse MOVE in a different direction or MOVE faster in the same direction then the LEADER is controlling the movement. When you make all of the movement choices for the horse, the horse will quit moving and stand still waiting for further "instruction." In round penning this is called "the HOOK." It happens when you stop TELLING a horse to MOVE or change direction and MOVE some more, and the horse stops, turns, turns its head and looks at you full on with both eyes. THE QUESTION? "What do YOU, THE LEADER, want ME, the FOLLOWER, to do now. The answer (and if you don't give the answer, you will blow the whole conversation at this point) the answer is "just relax and stand there." The way you SAY the answer is to "relax yourself" - relax your posture, exhale, turn and walk away, slump your sholders. If you give that answer correctly, the horse will follow you, stop when you stop, move when you move.

Remember this: A PREDITOR tries to make its prey stand still. Preditors confine and attack. If you use confinement and "punishment while confined or restrained" as your training methods, you are acting like a preditor. Horses do not trust preditors becuase they are prey animals. Punishment and confinement techniques can be very effective training methods. They work especially well on spoiled horses what have never learned the social order of the herd. The idea behind punishment and confinement is that the horse gives itself up to the preditor. Sort of like what happens when a horse gets taken down by a mountain linon. Once the horse realizes that they can't get away, they quit struggling. They "give up their will." I do not see that as a "bad thing." In a lot of cases it is the only way to gain control over a horse that otherwise might be dangerous to its handler. On occasion I have seen a dominant horse chase a spoiled horse into a corner and mercilessly kick and bite the "disrespectfull outsider" until it gives up all resistance - or dies. You won't see any natural horsemanship gurus using this "technique" because the fluffbunnies don't like to see mahem and bloodshed.

In my opinion, both methods are valid. However, both methods can backfire on the handler. Knowing which method to use on which horse . . . we call people that know that "horsemen." I haven't figured out which way to go with every horse (Herd LEADER or PREDITOR). So I have to figure it out by trial and error. I keep watching the ol' mare. She's the only one that seems to get it right on every horse, every time.:)

[Rick Burten]

. I got under him and the stoopid nag tried to sit on me again!
Which is precisely why I use a HoofJack. :)

Rick

[tbloomer]

. . . SO I happily repeated his kangroo training and he decided he really COULD stand three legged quite well!Be careful Kim, you don't want to get a reputation as a kangaroo trainer. It could mess up our foreign relations with the Aussies!:D

[tbloomer]

Which is precisely why I use a HoofJack. :)

Rick
Megadittos on that one Maha Rickdy!


TB

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I posted this in the wrong place the day before yesterday duhhhh

I know you mentioned the horse is a relatively recent acquisition and is later going to a trainer for 60 days saddle-work but you haven't said whether you have experience bringing on young horses yourself or what ground work you're already doing daily with the horse.

Whilst you've had loads of excellent suggestions to help get over the actual immediate problem of getting the horse standing politely and well for the farrier, I'm of the view that to sort this properly, you need to do a heck of a lot of ground work with him in order to just cultivate his general confidence in you as his owner so he looks to you for protection and guidance.

So this means spending a lot of time with him treating him with unaltering friendliness and quiet determination and complete fearlessness. In my experience, no horse once used to being treated on such lines, will ever bite, kick or otherwise try to injure its master or anyone else. Such treatement inspires them with confidence and makes them easy to handle and manage in all cir***stances.

I feel as a horse trainer I want to ask loads about what you've already done in relation to other things because its really important with what you've described that no opportunity is missed to increase simultaneously with your understanding of the horse, his understanding of you and this will help with his confidence. So anything you can do will tend to increase his understanding and help him to be ready to give his best confidently and without constraint. So the everyday treatment in the stable and whilst working with him is of the utmost importance. How many hours a day do you spend with him? What precisely are you doing with him during those hours?
So have you bridled the horse yet? Is he already backed and just going to be brought on under saddle? Is he being longreined or lunged? Or is he even being walked led out extensively?

And back to the immediate problem, whilst there's been lots of speculation about pain, noise etc etc etc its important to appreciate that ordinarily a young horse will snatch his foot away because he feels unbalanced and insecure and is worried about falling over and is not confident. This is understable at first but can become habitual, so that even when he is quite capable of standing on 3 legs he still snatches the foot away when he is uncertain, rather than waiting for you or the farrier to finish doing what is being done and then to let it go. Though some claim to be able to hang on to a leg and never let it go, having had decades training horses, I'm cynical about such claims and in any case, its not advisable (for safety reasons) to hang on to the leg no matter what so the horse ends up getting his own way and the handling/holding/picking out/trimming/shoeing/nailing/whatever stops. By all means work on picking up his legs - always ensuring he's standing square and balanced before you start. And don't ask too long at first to give you chance to put it down before he moves or snatches and tapping them and making loads of noise etc etc get the radio on loud whilst you're doing it. And when you put his foot down reward him (pat him and stroke him on his neck) and build on this principle every day.

I want to ask a load about what he's doing in this 60 days when he's at training but currently I'll restrict it to .... When he's been to the trainer will you have the opportunity to go too so you are brought together.

I can't help feeling though that this is just a "normal new young unconfident horse thing" and its hours of ground work (not just focusing on how he behaves for the farrier) that will ultimately sort it out properly and it sounds like you've got the urgent work done of having his feet trimmed and you have till the spring to sort it out holistically, so no problem at all.

[danverschild]

Over the years, I've done several stints as a trainer, and--even now--I keep my toe in the door as a part-timer, taking in a few horses a year. But I keep it separate from my shoeing. I feel that it's my clients' job to train their horses, and I feel it's their job to discipline their horses. I treat training and discipline the same as I treat tranquilizers... I might ask them to do it, and I'll even offer recommendations (if asked), but I don't do it for them.

I went to horseshoeing school long enough ago that we spent the first day learning how to restrain horses with various types of hobbles. We even spent time learning how to throw one and tie it down. But those days are long gone for me. If I'm going to scotch hobble a horse, I've probably got a bill of sale in my pocket :)

[Bill Adams]

Tom B,
Post 31 was one of the best explanations on this subject I've read. Very concise.
You mentioned the two methods and knowing which to use, therein is the trick. I took the first post in this thread to be an older horse.
On an old mare who's been shod a hundred times and wants her foot down, a wack and the squared sholders, look in the eye , etc works fine, but on a yearling filly I would be done for the day if I pulled that on her. I go slow and nice and no problem and she gets done.
What you wrote about the owner handler reminded me of the times the owner is trying to get the horse to stand still with the begging and explanations of time management and secudles and beeing nice etc, till prescious steps on Mommies foot. Then there is foul language and battery and all of a sudden the horse stands still.
Bill

[Rick Burten]

If I'm going to scotch hobble a horse, I've probably got a bill of sale in my pocket :)
Amen!!!

Rick

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

I have one horse who does this horribly. I have foudn a way to keep him from doign it. Its quite simple, but may not work for everyone. I dont hold his leg between my legs. Thats it. Its a pain to work on this horse, but its easier than catching a nail, or constantly fighting. What I do is if im working on the near side, I put the foot on the outside of the leg closests to him. Its kind of tricky, but he doesnt pull. I would love to get a 'Stall Jack' and try that with him to have the foot more stable.
I acquired a new customer recently who's thoroughgbred mare would rear if I put the near front (only the near) between my legs. I had to trim and shoe it in exactly the position you described. I have put its behaviour down to having been quicked in the past, as I have to hit the nail, wait a second, hit the nail, wait, etc etc. If I try driving the nail too quickly, up she went. I also use the same nailing on the rears on a riding pony that I know to have been quicked in the past (owner warned me on my first visit). The reason these horses were quicked was obvious from the start, straight inside walls in both cases.

[goeslikestink]

um-- when i got bonnie shes was 6 yr old boushly welsh cob shes a sec d --
everyone in that livery yard called her names --as in nasty with the f word
she beloned to my neighbours brother-- i have seen that mare grow up -- he had a palce of his own and the bloke played with horses i say played as he could ride ( kind off) and he could muck out and groom he was a away a lot and alviery looked after his place for him--he eventually was selling up all his horses so buy a post office isaid seel them but keep her shes nice for someunkown reason he did-- wasnt long about a year and he came back didnt like the po business-- so bonnie moved from yard to yard as she jumped out at yards-- all of the locals had her-- then he moved into the yard yard which is part of top yard but also the top yard owns my place--if you got that-- a
anyways he lunged her one day and had a heart attack-- in the arena-- so ffhe went to hosptial and yard woner took horse back---

brother came over and said would i do bonnie for him, then got a message that he couldnt work with horses anymore so i brougght her--

she was awful -- wouldnt stand would be so so naughty-- he only grromed one side as she used to squash him the other side-- when brought in from the fields as at that time was looking after her wouldnt stand still and lash out with front feet-- for no reason

so what did i do --- rolled upa blooming newspaper and smacked her one hard acorss her knees--
from that day shes never jumped out of my fields, she took to being broken in well and didnt have a hssing fit of bucking-- ( to which my daughter and her mate rode her doubles round the woods )
and she never ever struck out since-- i never need a crop on her
and she has won and been place in major local events and qulaifierers
shes easy to to do and handle

i only did it the once it was th sound of the noise of the paper -- and it didnt hurt but shocked her --

sometimes we revert to simple methods of short sharp shocks --when needed