Gloves and shoes?

[Phil Armitage]

Today was a cold day and tonight was even colder. My hands felt cold all day. I got home and went out to the barn to clean stalls. As I was cleaning I thought about getting my gloves and it occured to me that I just need to adapt to the cold weather as I have done every winter, I very rarely wear gloves when I shoe horses. I pulled the shoes on my horses for the winter and it took a few days to see them running and playing as they did shod. My horses are done working for the winter so they do not need shoes right now. A lot of my clients horses go barefoot for the winter and a lot continue to work there horses well into winter and still need to be shod front and hind.

It occured to me how we expect horses to adapt to going barefoot. It also occured to me that many barefoot trimmers wear gloves when they trim even in the summer yet a lot of trimmers will blindly pull shoes and call them evil. Double standard here or what? I have heard all kinds of far fetched reasons as to why shoes are evil and unnatural and cause harm. That horses were not born with shoes and do not need them.

Horse owners are told some bazar things by trimmers (I know not all, but many do) to justify pulling shoes. I see a double standard. We are not born with cloths, boots, hats and shoes however some think it is okay for our domestic equine friends to go all natural and can stay outside 24/7 (this is another subject that gets me going).

We have the option of wearing gloves when it gets too uncomfortable to do our work in extreme temps. We also have the option to seek other ways to get comfortable and protect our health, like coats, hats and going inside. A horse adapting to going barefoot has to tolerate it, sometimes endureing a lot of pain and even leading to perminant damage if they don't have the feet to go barefoot, but a trimmer thinks all horses can adapt in all situations. I know from experience that this is not true.

I do not understand why a simple concept like shoeing that provides protection, support and traction is considered evil. I will say it is better to go barefoot than to be poorly trimmed and shod. I am talking about proper trimming and shoeing.

With all that said I ask horse owners to really think about what a horse has to endure the next time you listen to a barefoot trimmer as they wear there gloves while they trim your horse. Recently I have heard back from clients of very bazar reasoning as to how all horses can go barefoot and do not need shoes for protection or need to be in a stall or wear blankets. If a trimmer really believes in all natural and that all horses can go barefoot then why don't they practice what they teach and allow there hands to adapt and callouse when they trim, farriers do. I know the rasp cuts the knuckles and fingers, the cold air hurts but if they keep on wearing gloves how will they toughen up they expect horses to toughen up? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Farriers on this forum have asked many times why doesnt a trimmer go barefoot? I think that is a reasonable question and it never get answered. Can't our feet adapt we were not born with shoes, however a trimmer has no problem useing i*diotic reasoning like this.

the weight of a horse, the trauma a horses foot has to endure as they carry the weight of a rider and saddle over various footing like roads, rocks, mud and water is much more to adapt to than what we would have to endure. Remember horses hoofs endure the whole load and sometimes over very rough terrain without the option of picking there path.

Just some things I was thinking about as I work without gloves, thank God I don't have to walk on my hands and carry a rider over jumps, race, compete, barrel race, drive, event, and endurance/trail ride.

Here is another wierd thing I heard today. Lady was telling me how she thinks horses that act up, rear and bucks are probably lame. I know this lady and she is a barefoot advocate. I thought to myself does she think all dossil and behaved horses are sound? I find some horses are dossil and seem well behaved because they don't have the energy and are too sore to act up. So what is it, is a well behaved horse lame or sound? Is a spit fire hot horse lame or sound? I don't know, but I will say that considering the species and that they tend to give in and check out when lame. I wonder how many well behaved barefoot horses are actually sound. Don't get me wrong, I know there are many barefoot horses with excellent feet that are sound and that all horses do not need shoes. Just food for thought as one considers going barefoot or not.

[belhaven]

Phil, interesting points-and points often made...but some I feel don't make the 'logic' transition...let me try to explain.

First-I want to agree with you that I don't feel it is correct to let a horse hobble around, sometimes for months, in pain while the foot transitions.

Here is the problem with the goose/gander arugment that *I* have...ok I wear shoes there my horse should...well...my dog doesn't wear shoes, my cat doesn't...so should they?

Even moreso-my horses potties outside, in the open...if he is stalled he potties in his stall, where he sleeps...sometimes he potties on his hay and still eats around it.

SO should I do the same? Goose/gander?

My horse doesn't wear clothes when the weather is nice (actually he only wears a blanket if he is shivering)...should I do the same? While I am certain it would create some fascinating gossip, and perhaps create a few dinner offers :D I don't think the goose/gander argument can be carried too far.

And let's not even THINK about what mares and stallions do out of the privacy of their own stalls. :eek:

Not disagreeing so much or arguing BUA, just commenting on a little hitch in the logic. :)

[belhaven]

On the other point-horses act up if lame...well some do and some don't

I have a horse that was rehabing from some problems-he was PAINFULLY docile...almost depressed.

One day I went to halter him and he nipped the snot out of me-I laughed and thought-oh goodie! he must be feeling better...and as he improved he got cheekier by the day.

I do however see horses act out when they are hurt-saddle fit, disrespectful riders, etc

So 'it just depends' (HA....I AM learning the answers to be a good farrier ;) :D )

[Steve Swain]

Belhaven, just a note on dogs with boots. There are alot of upland bird dogs that wear boots will working. A dog with sore feet won't hunt. Working animals need protection, whether it be a horse, dog or ox, companion anmials most likely not.

[belhaven]

I agree that a sore animal won't do the job properly and shouldn't be made to do it...

I am betting the argument you will get is obvious-the dogs get 'booted' not shod...and boots are available for horses as well.

I actually thought of a dog example as soon as I clicked 'post.' I live on a farm with my 6yo aussie...he cruises ALL over-I can play ball with him for ages on my gravel driveway and he never misses a beat.

A friend came in town for the weekend with a golden retriever 'city dog.' The first day the dog played hard and by day 2 he was crippled...he need shoes for sure! ;)

So perhaps we come back to the basics? Bed your horse and create the environment that he lives on the same as you want him to work on?

Seems simple enough but not practical enough for most situations.

[Tim Hutton]

I am betting the argument you will get is obvious-the dogs get 'booted' not shod...and boots are available for horses as well.


It would be kinda hard to nail a shoe to a dogs foot. :D

Tim Hutton

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage]....
Farriers on this forum have asked many times why doesnt a trimmer go barefoot?

Why don't humans leave their shoes on for 6 weeks and then only take them off to trim their nails and then put them right back on again for another 6 weeks?

Why don't humans nail shoes to their toenails--and fingernails?

Why don't humans nail or glue their shoes on instead of tying them on?

Why don't we tie shoes on horses?

Why don't humans wear shoes that are open on the bottom?

Why don't horses wear sandals?

> I think that is a reasonable question and it never get answered.

Maybe because no one else thinks it's a reasonable question?

Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA

[KarenStandefer]

I do not understand why a simple concept like shoeing that provides protection, support and traction is considered evil. I will say it is better to go barefoot than to be poorly trimmed and shod. I am talking about proper trimming and shoeing.

I think it's the part about proper trimming and shoeing that gets most of us. I can't even count the number of farriers I've used. And, I have only had one that shod/trimmed my horse "properly". That was Mark Plumlee at Mission Farrier school. But, unfortunately, he's not available as a a regular farrier and I don't live in that area anymore.

Regardless of what you guys on these boards say, poor farriery is the norm, not the exception. At least in my experience and in my part of the country.

I have pictures of a shoeing job that was done on my horse. He does endurance. The farrier was very experienced with doing endurance horses. This horse was only shod for 4 months out of the year and this was the result after only 4 months. Ironically I got a lecture from the farrier about how my horse would eventually contract navicular syndrome from his hoof conformation (which was completely MADE by the farrier himself). What a joke!

http://tinyurl.com/yk7asm

I'm going to farrier school this weekend to learn to shoe (at 52 years old it's not exactly what I'd like to be doing!). I had an offer from a local farrier to ride with him and let him mentor me, but when I looked at his personal horses they were in the same condition as the pictures I've posted above (underrun heels, long toes and short shod).

I don't really know what the problem its remediation, but it's epidemic. And, then you question why people are turning to barefoot?

Karen

[Gary Hill]

Yea know, horses are beasts of burden and it is our responsibility to care for these animals that we use for work or pleasure! Simple is as simple does? I use my horses and need the protection and traction that shoes provide plain and simple. If someone wants to ride their horse then they need to make sure that choose a path that is friendly to that horse and its use. I know some barrelracers that have drank the Kool-Aid and have gone barefoot and thats fine, it is their choise! But don't complain when they walk through the rock parking lot to their trailer and their horse is gimpy from the rocks? If ya haven't noticed horses and other animals all live outdoors and most wild animals live in the climate they were born in. Those we take out of the wild we must provide shelter for them. All part of being a Shepherd to your charges. JMO, Gary

[Gary Hill]

Karen how long ago was this horse shod? I will admit it doesn't look good now but feet do grow with shoes on and this horse might need to be reset more often. Best, Gary

[KarenStandefer]

Karen how long ago was this horse shod? I will admit it doesn't look good now but feet do grow with shoes on and this horse might need to be reset more often. Best, Gary

Gary, it's the same old story. I asked the guy to shoe him every 4 weeks (because the horse does grow a forward foot). But, the farrier insists that in 4 weeks there isn't anything to trim. Well, there isn't any foot HEIGHT to trim, but there is plenty of LENGTH (heels and toes). It's just the same story you get from everyone.

The shoeing job you see is 3 weeks after being shod (and 5 minutes before I jerked the shoes off AGAIN). He also imbalanced all of the hooves (they look better in these pics than they did just after the shoeing because the horse had grown some medial wall/heel to make up for the high lateral walls that he left all the way around). I had the farrier out the week after he shod my horse complaining about the high lateral walls. He had me move the horse in hand (he was obviously landing on his lateral walls) and then had me ride him under saddle. He said that when he's under saddle he straightens out. Huh????? I think the only reason he said that is because I can't see him when I'm on top of him. Anyway, as evidence from the sheared heels and solar view, the hooves were all unbalanced. He also complained that his right front was pigeon toed. Well, he never was before this guy got hold of him. But, after 4 months of leaving his lateral wall high, he was standng toed in.

Anyway, there is NO excuse for this type of shoeing. But, it is what I get with every farrier I have ever used except Mark.

My plan is to leave the horse bare until late next spring and work on getting his feet healthy and balanced again. Then, hopefully I can get some help to start shoeing him myself (Rick is the offer still open???).

Karen

[Steve Swain]

I just had a thought( yes it hurt) I wondered how much these bare foot horses are worth. With the starting prices of a good head horse around 12k and barrel horses that can win even more than that. You probably don't find many of them barefoot. And I'm pretty sure that all the horses in Vegas right now have iron/aluminum on their feet (except the bucking horses) I just can't digest the fact that someone with serious money wouldn't protect their investment.

[Gary Hill]

Good points Steve. Unfortunately the majority of horseowning public are not making a living with their horses. Here in Texas, the weather being as it is you can always find a roping, barrel race,cutting, sorting or horseshow . Backyard folks will get abit cheap around this time of the year and pull shoes to save money for Christmas. They are the ones that pull shoes for the winter and just trim. When you look at your horse as an investment the amount of care goes way up! I'm not saying these other folks don't care for their horses but when it is a business you tend to spent the money to keep your horse ready for use at any time. Best, Gary

[belhaven]

I just had a thought( yes it hurt) I wondered how much these bare foot horses are worth. With the starting prices of a good head horse around 12k and barrel horses that can win even more than that. You probably don't find many of them barefoot. And I'm pretty sure that all the horses in Vegas right now have iron/aluminum on their feet (except the bucking horses) I just can't digest the fact that someone with serious money wouldn't protect their investment.

I also do not find the logic in this argument. It assumes a shoe is in fact protecting the investment.

Those of us that have owned unsound shod horses, that are now sound barefoot would argue to the end on that point ;)

Gary's comments are also just not 'good arguments'-I mean seriously-backyard folks get cheap at Christmas so they pull shoes? :confused: That assumes all people who have barefoot horses are not financially stable?

These are making assumptions that are not fact.

And agreeing with Karen's point-it would be a great world if there were outstanding farriers on every street corner...attached you will find an example of the outstanding work of one of Georgia's finest (granted this was a few years back-the horse is now bare).

This horse had JUST been reset...when these photos were taken...now you all tell me, where does one go from here?

[Steve Swain]

Gary, you being from Texas I'm sure you've seen this also. On the ranches I've worked for in the past you shod your cavvy. Most of the cowboys we'ren't farriers by any stretch of the imagination. They would spread the heels on a piece of railroad iron, nail 'em on and rasp off what hung over the shoe. These horses stayed sound, useful well into their late teens. Some even longer if they were a favorite mount used in sorting, branding or something else that wasn't a long hard day. Rancho has probaly seen the same thing in Nevada. As a wise man once said "most of the problems started when the stud snorted at the mares flank". my point I guess is that a horses hooves can withstand some pretty sorry work and not have problems. So to blame shoes or a cruddy shoe job for the horses woes isn't always correct. Some are going to be lame no matter what we do.

[Gary Hill]

Belhaven it isn't an assumption. It is based on fact after 28 years of being in this business. It is business, to us that are successful. Sorry you are having troubles with finding a good dependable farrier. Cheap is cheap to some folks, why shoe if you are not riding or using your horses is what I mean. If you think about it everything that is contracted out for work always goes to the lowest bidder? How would you like to ride on the Space Shuddle knowing the cheapest bids do the work? Same goes for hoofcare only the barefooters on the milk crates drag out the work so you think they know what they are doing? Ask your barefooter if they ride and win on their own horses or do they really even know how to ride??? :eek: Good Luck ! Gary

[smitty88]

I also do not find the logic in this argument. It assumes a shoe is in fact protecting the investment.

Those of us that have owned unsound shod horses, that are now sound barefoot would argue to the end on that point ;)

Gary's comments are also just not 'good arguments'-I mean seriously-backyard folks get cheap at Christmas so they pull shoes? :confused: That assumes all people who have barefoot horses are not financially stable?

These are making assumptions that are not fact.

And agreeing with Karen's point-it would be a great world if there were outstanding farriers on every street corner...attached you will find an example of the outstanding work of one of Georgia's finest (granted this was a few years back-the horse is now bare).

This horse had JUST been reset...when these photos were taken...now you all tell me, where does one go from here?


what is your point

[KarenStandefer]

Backyard folks will get abit cheap around this time of the year and pull shoes to save money for Christmas. They are the ones that pull shoes for the winter and just trim.

In the area where I live (Pacific NW) and ride (West Coast) most endurance riders pull shoes at the end of the season and then put them on when the season starts up again. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with giving horses, who have worked their tails off during the previous 8 months) a rest. Most endurance riders recognize that it is beneficial for the horse to be barefoot as much as is possible. But, of course, during the season that is not an option for the majority of us. We ride casually in the winter and don't need shoes for that.

Karen

[smitty88]

Phil you need to do more anvil and fire work
you will not feel the cold

by the time you have your 8th hot fitted

you will be stripping off like them British Farriers

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=KarenStandefer]I think it's the part about proper trimming and shoeing that gets most of us. I can't even count the number of farriers I've used.

I don't think the problem is poor farriery so much as leaving shoes on for 6 weeks between trims.

I reset every 3 to 4 weeks (the one mule I still have shod), and he's still long toed when I reset. And I already have the shoe set back as far as I can, so backing up the shoe more isn't really an option.

Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA

[belhaven]

My point is never say never and don't always say always.

The farriers get very upset that barefooters say ALL horses can go barefoot-well it seems this thread, or certain posters on this thread assume ALL horses of value need shoes. Silly assumption...and heads up-a 12k horse is cheap in most show circles.

Gary assumes cheap is cheap-was this meant to mean many of us are too cheap to pay for good farrier work? If so that is an assumption again. While I can't speak for all horse owners, I can assure you my check book could handle the cost of shoeing and frequent resets as needed. Trust me. ;) When my horses had shoes they kept a 4 week schedule.

He assumes horses can not be ridden successfully unless they are shod. Assumption. A silly one really-horses are ridden and compete all the time without shoes. Are there as many out there as shod horses-well of course not...but it doesn't mean there are NONE. Silly.

He also assumes barefooters don't know how to ride? Now let's just see how ugly we can be. ;) Silly again.

Now let's assume he really doesn't believe these things, but is only saying them to watch all the BUA gather round and defend the position. Actually it is the only conclusion that makes sense-that these comments are meant to get a reaction...because certainly no person with common sense can assume these things to be true?

So...that is ONE of my points...the other is the fact remains that good farriers are hard to find. Period. Are there good farriers around? Well of course there are! It would be plain foolish to assume all farriers are bad.

So rather than argue barefoot vs shod, why not find out some constructive way to regulate what farriers do-then perhaps the need for these debates would certainly be diminished. :)

[Rick Burten]

Then, hopefully I can get some help to start shoeing him myself (Rick is the offer still open???).
Karen
Yep. Send me a ticket.


Rick

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Steve Swain in brown

I just had a thought( yes it hurt) I wondered how much these bare foot horses are worth. With the starting prices of a good head horse around 12k and barrel horses that can win even more than that. You probably don't find many of them barefoot. And I'm pretty sure that all the horses in Vegas right now have iron/aluminum on their feet (except the bucking horses) I just can't digest the fact that someone with serious money wouldn't protect their investment.

belhaven in gray

I also do not find the logic in this argument. It assumes a shoe is in fact protecting the investment.

C'mon counselor, your knowledge of rodeo is showing. Because it's impossible to compete in any of rodeo's timed events without a horse, it follows that a contestant's buying, leasing, or renting a horse constitutes an investment. Because it can be readily demonstrated that a barefooted horse cannot perform at the same level as a shod horse in rodeo's timed events, shoes are, in fact, part and parcel to the protection of a contestant's investment - as well as the probability of any return on that investment.

FYI, to my knowledge, no barefooted horse has ever won or placed in any of rodeo's timed event finals at the professional, collegiate, or high school level and no barefooted barrel horse has ever won or placed at any futurity or derby. Here in Texas, where good barrel horses are as common as white on rice, anyone who rides a barefooted barrel horses is called "added money" with good reason.

Those of us that have owned unsound shod horses, that are now sound barefoot would argue to the end on that point.

Timed eventers who depend on their horse's performance to put grits on the table view such stories of barefoot derring-do with a yawn and a hearty, "So what?" In rodeo, barefooted horses are not competitive; shod horses are. Simple as that.

Gary's comments are also just not 'good arguments'-I mean seriously- backyard folks get cheap at Christmas so they pull shoes? :confused: That assumes all people who have barefoot horses are not financially stable?

As I see it, Gary's argument implies knowledge of his potential clientele, it neither assumes or suggests fiscal instabilty on anyone's part; instead, it suggests a parsimonious clientele - and who would know better?

These are making assumptions that are not fact.

No ma'am, their premises are valid and their conclusions are logical. Yours, on the other hand, are a tad illogical - which suggests a less than complete knowledge of your subject matter. :)

And agreeing with Karen's point-it would be a great world if there were outstanding farriers on every street corner...attached you will find an example of the outstanding work of one of Georgia's finest (granted this was a few years back-the horse is now bare).

Good farriers are easy to find: they gravitate to urban areas and concentrations of horses engaged in those disciplines in which they have an interest and/or expertise. From a farrier's standpoint, there's not much fiscal future in specializing in pasture potatos and backyard horses unless there's a helluva lot of 'em in one place - and it makes little sense to drive by horses that need shoeing on one's way to shoe a horse unless there's some fiscal incentive to do so.

This horse had JUST been reset...when these photos were taken...now you all tell me, where does one go from here?

If I had a backyard horse I wanted shod correctly, I'd head for the nearest successful jumper barn, find out who's doing their work, then call their farrier and offer to pay him mileage and a premium in addition to his regular rates. As I see it, any farrier who can keep a jumper barn going can probably give a backyard horse whatever it needs - but he damn sure won't be the cheap seats.

[Gary Hill]

I don't know why you find it hard to understand that people do just as I mentioned. :confused: Half my day was canceled because of the fact the folks called and canceled this morning because of lack of funds they need for Christmas! They are not going to ride until spring so they asked if they could get an appointment then? They figured their horse feet would be OK until spring? :eek: Their call, not mine! Come spring I will refer them to one of the flyby night new guys willing to put up with them. :D This is a business and I run mine that way so that's the way it is in my sandpile, yours is differant. Farriers shoe almost all breeds unless you specialize and prefer it that way. Meaning we see and deal with all types of folk, not just the ones we ride with? :D

[belhaven]

Tom we have gone a round or two on this topic, that's for sure ;)

I will agree with you that pure stats-win for win, shod horses are currently in the lead-that can't be disputed and I won't dare try.

I am only pointing out the always and never arguments simply don't fly. Are you with me on that one?

I am simply stating that barefoot horses are not ONLY good as pasture puffs-even you have conceded that dressages horses can successfully be shown bare. I dare say hunters can as well...can we agree on that one?

Heck I was just reading an article on a horse named Royal Code-He is a 14yo TB that has been competing in eventing for over 4 years bare. His biggest success has been in the Intermediate levels (jumps up to 3'9" high for fixed obstacles, 4'5" for brush and spreads of 10'6", drops of 5'11'). Is it just one horse? yup...but is he a simple backyard cream puff? Far from it.

Now once we hit the big jumpers and eventers, certainly the numbers of those competing decline to almost nonexistent-but I still question if it because ALL horses truly can't-or simply because it just isn't done at this point. Does it mean ALL horse could compete bare? nope...but could more do it than currently are? I would say they could.

I made this point on another forum-certainly when money is involved and time is of the essence, it going to be darn near impossible to convince someone to pull shoes and wait on the rehab time to continue competing...I personally think the approach should start early...providing proper hoof care to young horses-not just applying a shoe because Silver has turned 3yo and someone has done it that way, therefore it must be...I dare so if the health of the hoof is focused on from the start, more horses would have healthier feet (bare or shod) for the long haul...but that of course assumes people care to have them for the long haul.

You and I both know in today's world of use 'em today and another is around the corner, that just isn't always an owners focus.

As far as going to he nearest successful jumper barn to find a good farrier-that just isn't always a guarantee...I will bet you money if you and I sat in the seats at any horse shoe my way-and some are very big rated high end dollar horse shows, that we would agree on the condition of the feet we see.

It ain't pretty.

I don't have any problems saying some horses need shoes to do the job NOW they need to do-but I think more often than not it is because the feet have already gone south and time just isn't an option...not necessarily because a healthy hoof couldn't do the job (bare) that was asked.

[Phil Armitage]

This horse had JUST been reset...when these photos were taken...now you all tell me, where does one go from here?

Good example of poor shoeing. Hard for me to believe that horse was just done when the pics were taken. The back of the foot is over the shoe, looks more like a horse that is way over due.

[belhaven]

Gary-I am not going to argue there certainly are clients that cancel and pull shoes for financial reasons-my only point was that finances is not the ONLY reason owners decide to go bare. Sometimes because of the farrier care available, the horse is in fact better off bare. Sometimes even if good farrier care is available, the horses can thrive and do very well bare.

And even if clients go bare, I can imagine it IS frustrating to watch income you count on going flushing away, only to be left facing neglected feet in the spring-that just isn't good horse ownership-and not fair to the farrier (in this case you) that has been responsible for those horses during the 'riding months.'

I don't have a dog in this fight-meaning people will do what they see best-bare or shod-and it doesn't effect what I do. I have great respect for several of the farriers that post here-as well as several professionals that are educating people in having barefoot horses.

The true professionals are simply that-professional and good at what they do...and that means simply trimming or applying a shoe after a good trim is applied.

[belhaven]

Good example of poor shoeing. Hard for me to believe that horse was just done when the pics were taken. The back of the foot is over the shoe, looks more like a horse that is way over due.

I know scary isn't it :( The saddest part is this 'look' is all too common around here. :eek: Not everyone, not all horses, not all farriers-but it is common.

The good side of the story is for years before this experience I had a good farrier that took great care of my horses...he still shoes in the area and I still have great respect for him.

[Phil Armitage]

I know scary isn't it :( The saddest part is this 'look' is all too common around here. :eek: Not everyone, not all horses, not all farriers-but it is common.

The good side of the story is for years before this experience I had a good farrier that took great care of my horses...he still shoes in the area and I still have great respect for him.

Are you located in a warm part of the country? Maybe when the kids are grown up and gone my wife and I may move, would be an easy move if I had work lined up. ;)

[Steve Swain]

For what it's worth. All our young horses have to earn their shoes. They start showing potential they get shoes to help them to the next level.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil you need to do more anvil and fire work
you will not feel the cold

by the time you have your 8th hot fitted

you will be stripping off like them British Farriers

I love my forge in the winter. :D Ironicly all I did today was barefoot horses and it was a cold day, this afternoon I played with my new torch welding some scra*p metal, that was nice and toasty. Tommorrow is all front and hind and the forge will be going, don't know if I will keep the client if I start stripping down. :eek:

[belhaven]

Are you located in a warm part of the country? Maybe when the kids are grown up and gone my wife and I may move, would be an easy move if I had work lined up. ;)

Well as the self appointed spokesman for the acceptance and welcoming committee of new farriers, could I kindly see your work to ensure we will not be adding any more long toes/low heels. ;) :D

[belhaven]

For what it's worth. All our young horses have to earn their shoes. They start showing potential they get shoes to help them to the next level.

What kind of showing do your horses do?

[Phil Armitage]

Why don't humans leave their shoes on for 6 weeks and then only take them off to trim their nails and then put them right back on again for another 6 weeks?

Why don't humans nail shoes to their toenails--and fingernails?

Why don't humans nail or glue their shoes on instead of tying them on?

Why don't we tie shoes on horses?

Why don't humans wear shoes that are open on the bottom?

Why don't horses wear sandals?

> I think that is a reasonable question and it never get answered.

Maybe because no one else thinks it's a reasonable question?

Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA

Simple Kris, our anatomy is different than horses anatomy. We do not walk on our finger nails and we do not have a hoof. The inside of the hoof needs to be protected as our feet need protection. Because the domestic horse is a product of hundreds of years of man made problems due to breeding the natural protection is not as strong as there feral counter part. Even the feral horse has its limits and then becomes food.

[Phil Armitage]

I don't really know what the problem its remediation, but it's epidemic. And, then you question why people are turning to barefoot?

Karen

Karen sorry to hear all your farrier problems. I do not see the poor farrier epidemic you see and I have owned horses for 25 years and been shoeing for about 7. I do not question why people are turning to barefoot. I question a lot of the ilogical reasons for all natural and how evil shoes are. I think this is a market selling hope to gullable horse owners looking for quick and easy fixes.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

belhaven in gray

I will agree with you that pure stats-win for win, shod horses are currently in the lead-that can't be disputed and I won't dare try.

There's a reason for that.

I am only pointing out the always and never arguments simply don't fly. Are you with me on that one?

No ma'am, because your argument presumes something not in evidence; i.e., that it's possible for barefooted horses compete equitably with purpose-shod horses in certain endeavors requiring speed/traction and/or athleticism.

I am simply stating that barefoot horses are not ONLY good as pasture puffs-even you have conceded that dressages horses can successfully be shown bare. I dare say hunters can as well...can we agree on that one?

We can agree that horses engaged in activities that do not require significant athleticism quite often do not need shoes.

Heck I was just reading an article on a horse named Royal Code-He is a 14yo TB that has been competing in eventing for over 4 years bare. His biggest success has been in the Intermediate levels (jumps up to 3'9" high for fixed obstacles, 4'5" for brush and spreads of 10'6", drops of 5'11'). Is it just one horse? yup...but is he a simple backyard cream puff? Far from it.

One wonders what the beast might achieve if properly shod. :)

Now once we hit the big jumpers and eventers, certainly the numbers of those competing decline to almost nonexistent-but I still question if it because ALL horses truly can't-or simply because it just isn't done at this point.

There's a reason these horses are shod: Can you guess what it might be?

Does it mean ALL horse could compete bare? nope...but could more do it than currently are? I would say they could.

With the exception of those horses required by the Rules of Racing in parimutuel jurisdictions to compete wearing appropriate shoes, any horse can compete barefooted. However, when the money's up, most folks are not satisfied with merely competing, they want to win something - and barefooted horses don't win much because they are handicapped by their lack of appropriate footgear.

I made this point on another forum-certainly when money is involved and time is of the essence, it going to be darn near impossible to convince someone to pull shoes and wait on the rehab time to continue competing.

Bzzzzt! Such arguments are inherently fallacious because they presume that so-called "rehab" time will be beneficial.

I personally think the approach should start early...providing proper hoof care to young horses-not just applying a shoe because Silver has turned 3yo and someone has done it that way, therefore it must be...

Performance horses, especially those that have their performance wholly or partially objectively quantified, are shod on the basis of need, not fashion. I'll happily concede that many horses engaged in activities that do not require significant athleticism are often shod on the basis of fashion, not need.

I dare so if the health of the hoof is focused on from the start, more horses would have healthier feet (bare or shod) for the long haul.

Again, your argument is specious because it presumes something not in evidence; i.e., that shoeing is "unhealthy."

but that of course assumes people care to have them for the long haul.
You and I both know in today's world of use 'em today and another is around the corner, that just isn't always an owners focus.

There's plenty of opinion, but no moral imperative either way.

As far as going to he nearest successful jumper barn to find a good farrier-that just isn't always a guarantee...I will bet you money if you and I sat in the seats at any horse shoe my way-and some are very big rated high end dollar horse shows, that we would agree on the condition of the feet we see.

There are no guarantees in life, but any farrier who has demonstrated the ability to keep a barn full of jumpers together can shoe my horses.

It ain't pretty.

Pretty is as pretty does. As the old saying goes, "They all look good in a win picture."

I don't have any problems saying some horses need shoes to do the job NOW they need to do-but I think more often than not it is because the feet have already gone south and time just isn't an option.

Your logic is a bit fuzzy. At my end of the sandpile, horses are shod on the basis of need (protection, traction, gait alteration), not because their feet have gone south or somesuch.

..not necessarily because a healthy hoof couldn't do the job (bare) that was asked.

It's not about simply doing something, it's about doing something as best it can be done. No one has argued that a healthy hoof is incapable of doing any particular job, the salient point is that in many, perhaps most, activities requiring significant athleticism and/or speed, a bare foot is an impediment, a handicap that limits the ability of an animal to perform as best it can.

[Steve Swain]

Bel, mostly barrel and rope horses. There have been a few hunters that didn't make the grade at either of those. and of course some down the road riding horses that were not athletic at all.

Mr Stoval, I know you used to ride broncs, did you ever make it to the big dance?

[belhaven]

Ahhh yes i forgot that you (Tom) don't consider dressage, hunters, or endurance horses athletes...in which case our discussion is at a day end...see I do consider those athletic events for horses. :)


As far as considering shoeing 'unhealthy'-not necessarily so. That was a jump to a conclusion on your part...I was actually refering to poorly shod horses (or poorly trimmed horses to be more exact) when I was refering to rehab time, etc...not just shod horses in general. So I don't understand how rehab time would not be beneficial for an unhealthy structure?

You made one point interesting-all horses are shod on the basis of need. Interesting...I don't find that always to be the case. I think it is wonderful though if you are speaking from your experience-that you only shoe horses that need it.

Either way, as I have mentioned, I don't care necesssarily for the shod/bare debate-I think whoever decides on hoof care as a profession should be responsible enough to educate themselves in proper hoof form and function.

Many do--and many don't...another glorious thread on COTH with photos of less than stellar hoof care is running now. It just seems if every farrier or trimmer is as good as it seems on the net then there shouldn't be so many 'help my horse and his awful feet' threads.

Seriously, I know more farriers from here are snooping around the COTH hoof threads-don't any of you just jaw drop when you look at some of the photos? Doesn't anyone scratch his head and wonder HOW the person doing that job is called a pro? *shrugs*

Besides-this has gone FAR off course from my point to the OPs topic...I only think it is not very good logic to say because "we" do it x way so should horses.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Steve Swain in gray

Mr Stoval, I know you used to ride broncs, did you ever make it to the big dance?

Nossir, I wasn't in the RCA, I was in the IRA (now PRCA and IPRA respectively). I was a fair bronc rider, but I was too light to win much bulldogging big cattle over long strings, so I went where I could consistently win a little something in both events.

Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." :)

[Forgewizard]

Belhaven posts:So rather than argue barefoot vs shod, why not find out some constructive way to regulate what farriers do-then perhaps the need for these debates would certainly be diminished.

Mmm I'm certain, no guessing about it that most farriers think that horse owners ought to be regulated too!

ALl too often a horse is acquired by person that just doesn't have the knowledge, nor do they seek the knowledge required to properly maintain a horse.

Which goes to one of my main contentions for this hoof work dilema. Knowledge.

When the owners learn to recognize a good hoof and what it takes to maintain one, then the less than apt farriers will have to step up and improve thier performance!

Its that Knowldege and professional and integrity thing. Some pros take pride in their work and have a desire to learn more. Some pros are interested in the bucks only. Some horseowners are only interested in a pretty hoof or in what they can get from that horse for NOW. Too many do not have the same horse for a long termd by the time a problem shows up - the horse gets passed on down the line.

Some horseowners do keep the horse for an extended period of time and get into competitions where proper hoof work is critical ( not that proper hoof work isn't EVER critical), and when they learn about their horse's hooves, they start questioning the work. A farrier that just doesn't know, but is willing to learn will find out how to improve. Those that think they aren't at fault, well, will go away one way or the other.

But the key is the horseowner.

Now as for regulation of this industry - do we REALLY want to open THAT can of worms again?

[belhaven]

Excellent point on owner education (dare I say owner responsibilty?), Kim.

Umm...NO...please don't open that regulation can of worms...not even intended as a central part of this conversation! I know there have been rounds on that topic and no need to go again!

[HoustonFarrier]

Seriously, I know more farriers from here are snooping around the COTH hoof threads-don't any of you just jaw drop when you look at some of the photos? Doesn't anyone scratch his head and wonder HOW the person doing that job is called a pro? *shrugs*

Hell, I see it in REAL LIFE.........and then have a minor coronary event when the owner tells me 1. WHO the farrier was and 2. HOW MUCH they were paying him to mutilate theses feet !

Steve

[KarenStandefer]

Belhaven posts:


Which goes to one of my main contentions for this hoof work dilema. Knowledge.

When the owners learn to recognize a good hoof and what it takes to maintain one, then the less than apt farriers will have to step up and improve thier performance!

Welp, that is what is happening now! We are all getting educated and figuring out that our wonderful farriers that we depended upon to know how to keep our horse's hooves healthy, have been doing a shoddy (pardon the pun) job! So, some of us are on these boards complaining about it.

I think you're spot on, Kim. But, I also think the process has started. And, it started with the good Doctor from Germany. Too bad she spun such bad information. But, hopefully the education will continue and things will get better over the next few decades.

Karen

[kanderso]

[QUOTE=KarenStandefer}

>I think you're spot on, Kim. But, I also think the process has started.

I don't even think of it as a process, so much as additional information.

For example, Easyboots have been available since the early 70's (and maybe earlier), because I have a set I bought back then. I used them, but there were problems keeping them on some horses, and no one really seemed to know how to maintain horses barefoot--or if they did know the information wasn't anywhere near as available as it is now. So most of us opted for the next best solution to our protection/traction problems, which was shoeing.

Were shoes the perfect solution? Not by a long shot. But until relatively recently they were the best solution we had.

> And, it started with the good Doctor from Germany. Too bad she spun such bad information.

I'm not even convinced that her information was bad, although I suspect that greed, or enthusiasm, may have motivated her to try to train non-veterinarians to do what should be veterinary procedures.

Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA

[cowboy_bc]

I think it's the part about proper trimming and shoeing that gets most of us. I can't even count the number of farriers I've used. And, I have only had one that shod/trimmed my horse "properly". That was Mark Plumlee at Mission Farrier school. But, unfortunately, he's not available as a a regular farrier and I don't live in that area anymore.

Regardless of what you guys on these boards say, poor farriery is the norm, not the exception. At least in my experience and in my part of the country.

I have pictures of a shoeing job that was done on my horse. He does endurance. The farrier was very experienced with doing endurance horses. This horse was only shod for 4 months out of the year and this was the result after only 4 months. Ironically I got a lecture from the farrier about how my horse would eventually contract navicular syndrome from his hoof conformation (which was completely MADE by the farrier himself). What a joke!

http://tinyurl.com/yk7asm

I'm going to farrier school this weekend to learn to shoe (at 52 years old it's not exactly what I'd like to be doing!). I had an offer from a local farrier to ride with him and let him mentor me, but when I looked at his personal horses they were in the same condition as the pictures I've posted above (underrun heels, long toes and short shod).

I don't really know what the problem its remediation, but it's epidemic. And, then you question why people are turning to barefoot?

Karen


Hi all,

Yawn. Good luck but at 52 with your attitude your throwing your money away especially when you inform the folks at the school why your there.

Kevin

[cowboy_bc]

I also do not find the logic in this argument. It assumes a shoe is in fact protecting the investment.

Those of us that have owned unsound shod horses, that are now sound barefoot would argue to the end on that point ;)

Gary's comments are also just not 'good arguments'-I mean seriously-backyard folks get cheap at Christmas so they pull shoes? :confused: That assumes all people who have barefoot horses are not financially stable?

These are making assumptions that are not fact.

And agreeing with Karen's point-it would be a great world if there were outstanding farriers on every street corner...attached you will find an example of the outstanding work of one of Georgia's finest (granted this was a few years back-the horse is now bare).

This horse had JUST been reset...when these photos were taken...now you all tell me, where does one go from here?

Hi all,

Just been reset what 4 minutes or 4 months. Does anyone else have trouble with this one?

Kevin

[Phil Armitage]

Hi all,

Just been reset what 4 minutes or 4 months. Does anyone else have trouble with this one?

Kevin

Yes, I do. Hard to believe those were a new reset. Looks like 4 months. I don't know.

[belhaven]

Have all the trouble believing it you want.

*shrugs*

My horses were always on a 4 week schedule-OCCASIONALLY stretched to a 5 week time if I was on the road...again that was with a farrier I used and respected.

The photos were a different farrier-one that came recommended...he literally just didn't trim anything and would put the shoes back on...he said there was nothing to trim.

Point being-this is what owners are often face with.

[smitty88]

The photos were a different farrier-one that came recommended...he literally just didn't trim anything and would put the shoes back on...he said there was nothing to trim



in my eyes that wasent a farrier who done that job in the photos
there is a difference

[KarenStandefer]

Either way, as I have mentioned, I don't care necesssarily for the shod/bare debate-I think whoever decides on hoof care as a profession should be responsible enough to educate themselves in proper hoof form and function.


Me to!!!!!! And, I certainly get just as riled up when I look at the websites of many of the barefoot trimmers who obviously either haven't studied, or didn't learn what was being taught.

Bad workmanship is on both sides of the fence! Best to just learn to do it myself and then not have anyone to complain to except me :-)

Karen

[Phil Armitage]

Have all the trouble believing it you want.

*shrugs*

My horses were always on a 4 week schedule-OCCASIONALLY stretched to a 5 week time if I was on the road...again that was with a farrier I used and respected.

The photos were a different farrier-one that came recommended...he literally just didn't trim anything and would put the shoes back on...he said there was nothing to trim.

Point being-this is what owners are often face with.

Belhaven I have to be honest I do not believe it and if it is true there is more to this story than meets the eye. I can see if there is nothing to trim. Who insisted on every 4 to 5 weeks? This is part of your responsibilty as a horse owner also. Shoeing just for the sake of shoeing and going back into the same nail holes over and over again is going to cause damage. Why didnt your figure out a better interval and not consider other things may be going on here. What did the shoeing look like before he pulled them off and then just put them back on? Look closer at the picture the back half of the foot is growing over the shoe. I also see a lot of hoof wall damage, flaking off in the area of the nail holes. Looks to me like a horse that is not growing any foot then. What did you do with your horse back then and how often? What was the enviroment and nutrition like? Tell us the rest of the story, for example why you transistioned to barefoot. I think people transistion to natural trimming and barefoot only out of being impatient, not faceing reality, being cheap and lazey. After someone transistions to barefoot, I think most horses finaly get a much needed break from the rider and work. Fatique, stress, enviroment and nutrition play a big role in qaulity of hoof and soundness in the whole horse. Another issue I see is poor conditioning and weekend riders who ride the **** out of there horse. Lack of proper warm up and cooling down. Then horse owners and trimmers think going barefoot was the magic bullet. Just what I think is happening with natural barefoot trimming. A lot of horse owners and farriers like barefoot this is nothing new, but there is more to horsemanship than a quick fix and gimmics.

[belhaven]

I can assure you my choice was not made out of impatience. I have been riding and showing horses for over 25 years...I have an obsession with nutrition, saddle fit, and proper training that encourages correct carriage of the horse.

Transitioning to barefoot has not been a cheap and lazy approach (well for me it hasn't)-it has taken far more hands on and energy than having my farrier come by ever did.

As far as cheap-certainly I don't pay a farrier but i have invested a lot financially (in educating myself through workshops, clinics and now a certification course) as well as the investment of time.

I have also had to revamp the environment my horses live in-from bringing in different gravels, etc to provide a varying terrain for them to live and work on.

As far as not growing foot-that seems odd to me-because after the shoes were pulled, he had plenty of foot to work with the bring the heels back and the toes back, setting up a better breakover. Ii will sort through photos and see if I can find his first trim after this...keep in mind that was over 3 years ago and most photos I still keep on my computer are more recent ones. :cool:

None of my horses are weekend warriors-they are in a full program of development-think cross training...from classical arena work, hacks outs over hilly terrain, and jumping as well asphalt and gravel hand walks to condition the feet. They also have proper down time scheduled in...for muscle rest, etc

Please don't consider my response as one that sounds defensive (keyboards can me so hard ;) )-I understand your questioning! Who knows who can be on the other end of a keyboard.

Unfortunately unless you saw my farm and the work program of my horses, you would just have to take my word for it...and i DO understood your skepticism.

And i agree with you 100% that often the farrier gets blamed when there are other contributing factors-like nutrition etc.

In my case, I have my soils tested twice a year to determine what nutrients are needed for the soil( i.e fertilizer)...I then come in and do forage testing to determine what minerals are lacking in the pastures and hay.

I balance the minerals bsed on the NRC requirements-adding only what is needed to keep things in check.

They are not on starchy foods, grains or any of the 'sweet stuff' we see today.

They are dewormed based on *****s and have annual vet exams when they have their teeth examined.

For the most part, they live quite 'holistically'-out almost 24/7...unless the weather is wet, then I make sure they have proper time to deslosh the feet.

They live on 20 acres-that variers from pasture to packed red clay, including a stream with river rock and gravel all over...I also have tons of hills-steep ones that used to make farriers cringe! LOL. (just keeping things a little light here).

[belhaven]

Also Phil-can you explain why you see nothing to trim? I see a foot run way far forward...toes painfully long and flaring.

AHA---here are some photos-not the best...but the same horse in march 2006...so about 2 1/2 years? after the shoes were pulled.

I hope? this shows what I mean by the shod feet actually were overall too long, too forward...maybe?

[cowboy_bc]

Have all the trouble believing it you want.

*shrugs*

My horses were always on a 4 week schedule-OCCASIONALLY stretched to a 5 week time if I was on the road...again that was with a farrier I used and respected.

The photos were a different farrier-one that came recommended...he literally just didn't trim anything and would put the shoes back on...he said there was nothing to trim.

Point being-this is what owners are often face with.

Hi all,

So what is the reason for your part in this thread anyway I can say most of us are not fooled by smoke and mirrors from wanna be cult trimmers. Surely not just to bad mouth farriers and build yourself up after all these clinics and this so called certification you talk of so please elaborate 1 day, 3 days . . . . I took the liberty of blowing those pics up and I have to say I think your whole story doesn't amount to much I won't say how much. Yawn.

Kevin

[belhaven]

Kevin, ignoring your less than polite comments...if you read the original post and my response...that is where it started...it ended here in my responding to responses.

As far as a wanna be cult trimmer that wants to bash farriers-you could not be ****her from the truth...I have said in this thread and others, I have great respect for good farriers-to be honest I have never understood why there should be separation in trimmers vs. farriers-I feel a good trim should be just that. I have had very nice educational conversations with farriers on this board and others-on the forums and through private emails-including but not limited to Tom Stovall, Forgewizard and Rick Burten. All have been polite, responsive and professional...yes even Tom ;)

The certification program that I am involved in (since you asked) included a year long 'academic program'-the books study part if you will-it took about 11 months to complete. After that it requires 4/5 workshops to be completed within a year...the workshops have lecture, dissections, trimming of cadavers and live feet-this only gives a level one certification...meaning nonpathological feet.

Each workshop is 40 hours.

After holding the basic certification for 18months a trimmer can choose to become certified on an advanced level-that includes more academics and additional workshops. During this part of certification a student becomes better versed in handling founder, navicular, etc.

We are also require to pass a 'live' hands on-trimming a live horse and are graded/critiqued on that element-including horsemanship and horse handling skills. If a student does not pass he/she must attend additional workshops until she can perform/trim to a passing level.

Additionally in order to remained certified we are required to attend one workshop (40 hours) per year.

I originally decided to pursue certification as I felt a weekend workshop and home study type program did not provide the education *I* needed to responsibly manage the hoof care of my animals.

Since beginning this program I have been contacted by horse owners interested in using my services...I have been honest with every contact that I will not be entertaining taking on paying clients until my certification is complete and I have passed the final exam.


Once again, I have nothing against professional farriers-I am not pursuing an education to that extent because a) I doubt I could physically manage it as I had a back injury years ago that limits me, b) by horses are sound and healthy and capable of performing without shoes, so I don't see the need for me personally, c) because of (a) mentioned above, any clients I could take on in the future would only be trims-if a horse that was in my care needed shoes , I would try to develop a relationship with a farrier and I could then refer out those clients so his/her needs would be met.


So you blew up my pictures and it doesn't amount to much? Does that mean you don't see a difference in the before/afters?

Interesting.

The only point I had to make is there is a lack of logic in the arugment that we use gloves therefore horses must use shoes. I believe my point was well stated in the first pages on this thread. Whether the OP or others agreed or not is the beauty of free speech and communication and flow of ideas. At the very least it seems adult can agree to disagree while still maintaining some social politeness and dignity (while occasionally interjecting humor)?

I apologize Kevin that you find my comments 'yawn worthy'...it seems this thread offered an interesting oportunity for comments and interaction without personal attacks.

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I guess that's why they say I'm a bit of a red neck. I think the pictures are obvious and I was only commenting on the original pictures the improvment in the later pictures were well trimmed feet basically what the original pics needed 2 months earlier. As for the AANHCP certification I remember reading the information on their site a while back when they described the curiculm and fee schedule in depth. The way I see it it's home schooling for a huge fee. Anyway make the best of it.

Kevin

[belhaven]

Actually I am not certifying with AANHCP...though i did think that program did require an apprecnticeship or hands on training for certification? But I could be wrong.

Sorry that I missed your humor...and by the way thanks for the indirect compliment-I was the one that trimmed the feet in the after shots. :)

Even though we may not see eye to eye on all hoof issues, it still feels nice knowing a farrier thinks I did ok on the trim...heck you actually might have just made me smile a little. Now I guess I won't have to comment on whether your photo is showing your best side? (that was humor...just a little humor).

(heck some of us with shoeless horses aren't so bad ya know-just trying to do the best we can ;)...and often that means listening to adivce from those of you that have been doing this since before I was born :D )

So back to your previously scheduled program and if we were long evening gloves should horses wear cocktail pumps...

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Best to just learn to do it myself and then not have anyone to complain to except me :-)

Karen

I can assure you my choice was not made out of impatience. I have been riding and showing horses for over 25 years...I have an obsession with nutrition, saddle fit, and proper training that encourages correct carriage of the horse.
To me these statements are absolutely striking and totally irrational.

I believe Karen said she was going to learn in a weekend ?

If I understood that, then she's absolutely fooling herself and will continue to be part of the problem NOT the solution.

And got to say having seen Bellhaven's "refit horse" that again the thought process seems irrational. Seems to me to have leapt from not being able to manage and oversee good footcare protocol to deciding to "do it yourself"

I don't understand why the better option wouldn't have been to increase level of knowledge and develop understanding and networking skills to be enabled to employ the services of a professional competent farrier to undertake routine good protocols on your behalf.

[belhaven]

I don't understand why the better option wouldn't have been to increase level of knowledge and develop understanding and networking skills to be enabled to employ the services of a professional competent farrier to undertake routine good protocols on your behalf.

Fair question Thomas-and if I recall this is what sent this discussion in this direction...I believe if you scroll a few pages back, to a comment from Karen S. Something to the effect of how difficult it can be to find good profressional farriers.

This is what I feel is a core of the problem...for some reason many farriers here think good professionals are a dime a dozen-when in fact they are not.
The good ones have full books, will not often take on small private barns...if they do the schedule can be unpreditcable, etc. SO that leaves the rest of the group. I know good ones can cost more-that has never been an issue for *me*-I would have paid about anything at one point in time.

On this particular horse, I had him under a good farrier's care...we parted ways for personal reasons that really are not important now. I had to find a new farrier. I made calls, spoke to different owners, looked at work...and finally had to settle on SOMEONE to shoe this horse. He was in the new farrier's care for several months. I asked questions-I wondered why the feet were heading in this direction...I tried to find someone new. This was the end result. Prior to this experience I never thought much about feet-I left it to the professionals.

It is not like we are all students of the German marching band and find the light and yank the shoes...for some of us it IS after just reaching the end of the rope. I think many of us then DO go through a baptized by barefoot period because we have a solution and can exhale and relax...give most of us time and we center agin. ;)

So to fill in more gaps...this WAS a recent reset...after I looked at this, and saw how the horse was moving, etc. I knew something HAD to be done-I made more calls, etc. FINALLY I threw my hands up and remembered I had heard of barefoot performance horses and trims etc...

Anyway---it was not a political decision *for me*-I can't speak for everyone...but I did pull his shoes and started the long road to learning more. I can assure you this was NOT something I had planned...my educational background is in a completely different arena.

In this process I was pleased to see improvements in my horses-all of my horses (but you all don't want to hear those things and will just accuse me of smoke and mirrors so we will leave that be).

I have made mistakes along the way...but for the most part have continued to learn in my understanding and education. And the final result is I can now care for my horses...my vet is involved and I do occassionally have xrays taken just to be sure things on the inside are not going wrong.

I am cautious, meticulous in their care, I research, ask questions and try to use common sense.

I lean toward the information provided by 'barefooters' because, to be honest, they are willing to help without the nasty comments one can often encounter 'elsewhere'. On the other hand I want to be well rounded in the information I receive, so I will brave the storm occasionally to make sure I am not sliding off the deep end.

I handle myself with professionalism in by business life, with integrity in ALL matters, and have been known to have a level head on my shoulders and it is quite agitating to have the constant 'smoke and mirrors' and 'oh this is another BUA throwing BS at us to prove a point' comments.

Perhaps others do that but *I* do not.

And if you want to know the truth, the bad attitudes do make me more relaxed that I can provide for my horses without having to deal with the 'tude more often...and this is a shame. The assumptions on this board that anyone shoeless is a fringe freak is no different than barefooters assuming all farriers are incompetent.

SO.....AGAIN bringing this BACK to the OP...*I* enter these discussions because I DO find them interesting and informative. I contribute when I have a serious question or have something to contribute that might be helpful or generate thoughtful discussion. Sometimes I learn something new about hoof care-more often I just learn about human nature ;) .

If anything it is enlightening to see what others think and how they respond.

Hopefully now I have satisfied your curiousity and questions and the thread can go back on topic? If not, I will do my best to continue to answer them the best I am able.

[caballus]

A thought to consider ...

Farriers and Trimmers can learn the "science" and the "mechanics" of trimming but both also need the "art" of hoofcare in order to perfect his/her work. I believe that trimming hooves (and yes, this means for farriers, too, not just trimmers) is 20% "science" and 80% "art". One can easily be a scientist but not all can be artists. I think that's the difference between the "good" farriers/trimmers and the "not-so-good" ones.

Thomas - you mentioned that you never heard hooves "talk" to you. Well, hooves have alot to say! In fact, they have so much "to say" that above and beyond the books, the human experts, etc. the hooves are the ones to dictate the trim and care ... the hooves and the horses.

And as to the topic of gloves ... well, my wonderful leather gloves split yesterday right up the side of the forefinger. And what, to my (not) surprise happened just after it split? I rasped the knuckle of that finger! :eek: THAT'S why I wear glove cause if I don't then I end up with no knuckles!

--Gwen

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

belhaven in gray, deletia

On this particular horse, I had him under a good farrier's care...we parted ways for personal reasons that really are not important now. I had to find a new farrier. I made calls, spoke to different owners, looked at work...and finally had to settle on SOMEONE to shoe this horse. He was in the new farrier's care for several months. I asked questions-I wondered why the feet were heading in this direction...I tried to find someone new. This was the end result. Prior to this experience I never thought much about feet-I left it to the professionals.

This is a repost of one of my long and lows, fresh shod.

http://www.katyforge.com/cc04.jpg


Is there any difference between yours and mine? :)

[belhaven]

Now that is a pretty shod foot! :D

Of COURSE there is a difference you silly ole goose-but I would have guessed your work would look different. That is my point! Good'uns and bad'uns...on both sides of the coin.

You already know I have a longdistance cyber crush on you Tom and were you closer, you could have taken over my horses and save me all this back breaking work...but then again you would have had a full schedule, not been interested in a small private barn... ;)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Thomas - you mentioned that you never heard hooves "talk" to you. Well, hooves have alot to say! In fact, they have so much "to say" that above and beyond the books, the human experts, etc. the hooves are the ones to dictate the trim and care ... the hooves and the horses.
--GwenRight I said that. I just don't do anthropomorphic twaddle at all and I clearly have no imagination. I've absolutely no difficulty whatsoever , seeing, accepting (knowing even) that a horse's conformation, his foot shape, what the horse does, how the horse goes, acts, behaves etc will determine what needs doing but never in a month of Sundays will someone tell me a hoof/tail/horse/leg "talked" to them without me groaning :rolleyes:

[Auventera]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage]....
Farriers on this forum have asked many times why doesnt a trimmer go barefoot?

Why don't humans leave their shoes on for 6 weeks and then only take them off to trim their nails and then put them right back on again for another 6 weeks?

Why don't humans nail shoes to their toenails--and fingernails?

Why don't humans nail or glue their shoes on instead of tying them on?

Why don't we tie shoes on horses?

Why don't humans wear shoes that are open on the bottom?

Why don't horses wear sandals?

> I think that is a reasonable question and it never get answered.

Maybe because no one else thinks it's a reasonable question?

Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA

Amen a 100 times!

[Gary Hill]

Why would a horse that is not ridden need shoes, especially a young horse??

[Phil Armitage]

I think if a horse has good solid foot conformation with good trimming, and an appropriate work outline, they can go barefoot. This is the feet of one of my mares. (just posted this on another board, so some of you might recognize it.) This mare is sound on everything and only slows down and picks her way through large or sharp gravel, but just for common sense purposes, I will go around it if possible. This mare does long trail rides as a ponied horse (not ridden) and is ridden on shorter rides. She's not quite 4 years old yet. She has a couple hundred trail miles under her belt so far - mostly on the end of a lead with no rider, but even with a rider she has been totally sound over gravel and asphalt. Should this horse ever get sore or wear the hooves down faster than she can grow them, I will put her in hoof boots. I see no reason to stick nails in these beautiful feet. The vaulted soles (completely natural - not cut into the foot) offers clearance for rocks and her great conformation means she wears her feet almost perfectly.

I agree if a horse has solid feet then why not go barefoot, however there is much more than the need for protection that proper shoeing can help out and boots have there limitations. A picture perfect foot is not all that is needed. I have seen some great looking feet on lame horses and ugly feet on sound horses. Performance horses are a whole other ball game again boots has it's limitations. Around here a performance horse that can't perform for whatever reason usually ends up as trail horses or schooling horse and sometimes barefoot. We call it serviceably sound and only good for trail rides or light work.

In one sentense you say the horse is sound on everything and then say she picks her path to avoid sharp rocks. I have ridden many trail horses properly shod that don't mind the sharp rocks. What are you going to do if the path is only over sharp rocks, turn around and go home? Pavement is very abrasive and if a horse walks or trots on it for too long it is just like a rasp, it will invade that nice strong protective sole. That has been a known fact for as long as I can remember.

I agree with Gary why shoe a young horse? Let them grow and develop the best they can.