Suggestions to replace plastic shoes??/originally on wrong board

[cartera50]

Sorry. I put this on the wrong board before as I am not a farrier. 7 yr. old TB mare - diagnosed with navicular disease, including bone spur - a little over a year ago. The problem is pretty much limited to the right hoof which is significantly smaller than the right. She is sound in the Hoof-It composite shoes with Equipac. I have read - here and other places - of the concerns with using these shoes long term. The speculation seems to be that no one really knows what effect the flexible shoe will have long term. I am considering other options that provide similar results so I'm thinking rim pad with Equipac. I have also read here about the choices for a rim pad. Since she is sound in the urethane shoes, how about a urethane rim pad? I guess it would be similar to the rim pad used with the Sigafoos shoes. I would also like for her soles to be exposed some this winter so I'm wondering if rim pads can be used without packing? Here is the shoe she is in

http://www.hoof-it.com/catalog2/pro...&products_id=32

[T.N. Trosin]

I guess I don't quite understand why you would want to move the horse out of a shoeing system that has obvioulsly worked out for the horse?
Correct link
Hoof-it Horseshoes (http://www.hoof-it.com/catalog2/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=1fd8763e5ecf04e76ee7e34b2ec0c4a1)

[cartera50]

I would only change if we found something in which she is as comfortable. A good number of farriers whose opinions I trust on this board and elsewhere have opined that they are concerned about the flexibility of the shoes used the****utically on a horse with already compromised boney structures. The other issue that is raised is that the shoes are thought by many to provide a little too much traction, possibly setting a horse up for injury - especially a young horse who still likes to romp in the field. The bottom line is that the shoes are still controversial. My farrier likes them well enough, but he has also wondered out loud to me if they provide enough stability for her in the long run, and as she is only 7, I hope there is a lot of long run for her. We may choose to keep them, but I wanted options to consider also.

[Forgewizard]

There are variations in densities and flexibility of poly shoes. Have you seen the www.ponywair.com (http://www.ponywair.com) shoes?

[cartera50]

I haven't seen those, but they look interesting. I'll ask my farrier about them. He has used several brands of the composite shoes and, so far, likes the Hippoplast the best. He gets at least one resettiing with them and she has never lost one so they seem to be quite sturdy. I haven't been unhappy with the Hippoplast - I guess the concerns about the plastic shoes of all kinds that have been expressed have me concerned enough to want to explore more choices with metal shoes. Perhaps I am manufacturing a problem that doesn't exist.

[Forgewizard]

I am a proponent of flexible shoes. But that being said the horse has to wear them and will tell us quite soon if the shoes suit them or not. One of the navicular horses I work with, does NOT like flexible shoes now, but did when he was in a different environment. Those he liked were Ground Control Horseshoes. His environment there was dry deep sand and rollng hill paddocks. Occassionally ridden on trail rides with pine woods trails and limerock roads.


Now he is in steel ultra lites with wedge pad and sole packing. HIs environment is lowland grass pasture, rolling hills some deep sand near the barn. Rides are done on grass, sand and dirt roads.

As you've often heard, 'm sure....
It just depends!

[cartera50]

Maybe I should just listen to her - she seems to like them. I guess I thought that if we could accomplish the same thing with metal shoes and some sort of pad made of similar material then I wouldn't worry about the effect of the plastic shoes. I would love to give her soles and frogs a break from the packing. I know that some farriers use the composite shoes without packing but the bars can really trap debris.

[Forgewizard]

Cartera,

Don't get roped into thinking the hooves "need a break" from shoeing. If the shoes are done well and correct for that horse, especially a horse with pathologies, then they need them every day!

Taking away the support of the shoe given to a hoof with pathologies will only let the hoof return to a more pathological state and will reverse whatever progress has been made.

A horse with navicular WILL need shoeing adaptations over time and with a farrier willing to try different methods and a horseownertuned into the horse, navicular problems don't have to be as terminal as so many people think. Yes, it will require a revamping of what is done or expected from the horse, but a nvaicular horse can definiely lead a comfortable productive cherished life!

Did you happen to see what I posted in the farriers helping farriers section rearding a horse I've done for years ( and the same one that wore the ground control shoes for 7 months until he moved).

Look into the Epona Hoof packing and antibacterial crystals at www.eponashoes.com (http://www.eponashoes.com) for your concerns about debris and hoof infections under a pad or under the GC shoes.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Cartera,

Don't get roped into thinking the hooves "need a break" from shoeing. If the shoes are done well and correct for that horse, especially a horse with pathologies, then they need them every day!


And just by way of confirmation and endorsement of that perspective. My shod horses are shod all year round and always have been.

It seems to be something where there's significant difference: In the UK people tend to only take shoes off to save money if the horse isn't doing anything and its another one of those things that until I came to American forums I'd never even heard of in terms of "needing a break" or "doing good".

Makes me wonder how all our horses manage to survive and stay in work so long.

[cartera50]

Cartera,

Don't get roped into thinking the hooves "need a break" from shoeing. If the shoes are done well and correct for that horse, especially a horse with pathologies, then they need them every day!

Taking away the support of the shoe given to a hoof with pathologies will only let the hoof return to a more pathological state and will reverse whatever progress has been made.

A horse with navicular WILL need shoeing adaptations over time and with a farrier willing to try different methods and a horseownertuned into the horse, navicular problems don't have to be as terminal as so many people think. Yes, it will require a revamping of what is done or expected from the horse, but a nvaicular horse can definiely lead a comfortable productive cherished life!

Did you happen to see what I posted in the farriers helping farriers section rearding a horse I've done for years ( and the same one that wore the ground control shoes for 7 months until he moved).

Look into the Epona Hoof packing and antibacterial crystals at www.eponashoes.com (http://www.eponashoes.com) for your concerns about debris and hoof infections under a pad or under the GC shoes.

I'm not looking for a break from shoeing. I wanted a break from the packing because her soles and frogs just look healthier when they are exposed. We originally used the Epona packing with the antibacterial cyrstals, but it set up a little too hard on her frog. It may work better now that her frog is in better shape. Thanks for reminding me - that is something we can try again. The frog of the contracted hoof had a center sulcus that was a little too deep and the Epona packing pressed down in there and got a bit sharp in the crack. I thought of using Hawthorne packing on the frog and then the Epona packing. I also looked into the Magic Cushion but never determined how it compares in consistency with the Epona.

[Forgewizard]

Wow,
I am surprised that the epona packing set up too hard for her. IF that is the case them a LOT of her "navicular pain" is actually a painful frog pressure response.

The Magic cushion, if it is the prouct put out by Luwex would be a good product for her.

Sounds like she needs a bit of air to get to the frogs have you tried oakum? It is a fibrous matter,dipped usually in pine tar or similar sustance and then packed into the hoof. The fibers offer cushioing, and also some air pockets.

Hope this helps!

[cartera50]

I think the Epona was only a problem because her frog was narrow and pinched in the center at that point. She was not ouchy or lame at all but she did end up with a case of thrush in that center sulcus. My farrier comes tomorrow. If he has oakum with him, he could put the oakum over the frog and then the Epona packing? If not, does Hawthorne hoof packing accomplish the same thing? I noticed in another post of yours that you use EW clinchers with them - did I get that right? What are they? My farrier always has to come out mid shoeing cycle to tighten the clinches on these shoes. She has never lost one but she usually needs a tweak.

Kim, do you feel there is no risk in using these shoes long term, as opposed to a few months the****utically? I had read on this board that many of the farriers have concerns about using them long term. Based on some of these concerns, I had thought I would use them for several months, and assuming she is sound, try to switch to a more traditional metal shoe but try to lessen concussion with packing and perhaps a rim pad.

[Forgewizard]

Cartera50
The EW clinchers I think may be available from their site, or even www.Centaurforge.com (http://www.Centaurforge.com) they are a unique tool resembling a spring loaed "C" clamp that has one jaw with a modified end to place aainst the blocked clinch, and anotherjaw toplaagainst the nailhead. The nail head jaw has a mall "anil" to seat the nail against the clinch jaw.

The problem with most urethane or flexible shoes is that the hammer bounces back when trying to get that final nail seat. This clincher eliminates that.

Well, I haven't used a flexible shoe continuously. For "Joe" he had them on for 7 months and the ony reason he came out of them was the terrain changed and his hooves got too moist in the new environment. He moved much better with a metal shoe and full pad here.

I tend to shoe horses according to their usage, or for the****utic reasons anyway. I'll use the flexible shoes for police horses, carriage horses, laminitic horses, distance horses. But many of these will alternate between barefoot, a metal or a flexible shoe depending on our weather or their usage seasons. The laminitic ones * knocks on wood* have so far gone back to being barefoot.

I'd keep the horse in what they show you is most comfortable. I can't see any reason WHY the flexible shoe would create any issues for the horse except in really wet environments. Depending on the horse, many of these navicular horses prefer a more solid foundation. A flexible shoe is no going to make the hoof any MORE flexible than it already is. In the wet season the flexible shoe will, because they have more coverage than a regular shoe, hold more moisture against the hoof and therefore the hooves stay saturated (and soft) longer.

ON hard ground these fexible shoes definitely have an advantage.

Your best bet is to take picures and video of your horse REGULARLY and compare them! Navicular changes in the hoof and the horse's movement can be so subtle, that unless you have a reference point changes won't get noticed.

[cartera50]

Thanks. Her xrays this year didn't show that things are any worse from last year. The biggest difference was that this year they were digital so you could see the bone spur much more clearly. The sole on the right hoof with the spur is thicker than the sole on the left, and in fact, the right hoof now is actually a better looking hoof than the left. The heel is not turning under as it once did. The left continues to want to curl.

[cartera50]

Farrier came today and we decided to continue with the plastics for at least on more cycle. Frog and sole looks good and no ouchiness. He switched to the Marathon shoe by Hoof-it because the shape is a little different and fits her hoof a little better and the toe is more beveled. He used dental impression with the Epona antibacterial chrystals for packing. Interestingly, I just checked the Hoof-it website and they no longer have the Marathon shoes. I wonder why they stopped.

[THamilton]

Could you post any pictures?

Thank you, Tony

[cartera50]

Sure. I'm out of town tomorrow but can get some Sunday.

[cartera50]

I called Hoof-it and they stopped manufacturing the Marathon because the choice just seemed to confuse customers so they went with the best seller.