hmm, really now? [Archive] - The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center Forums

Forgewizard

12-05-2006, 11:20 PM

So here I am at the local Deny's wifi spot because my home internet connection got fried and the repair crew won't get out for a few more days...d the Barnes & Nobles I went to actually wanted 25.00 for a one time usage!

Think I'm addicted to this board?
hehe

YEah, I wondered about his semi permanent adjustment of the lateal cartilages. And no matter how many times I've read his description of how to trim the hoof according to the lateral cartilages, I JUST DON'T GET IT!

Stand straight up more must I do.(as Yoda would say)

I am strongly consiering sending the pix BACK to PEte Ramey or any rebuttals he may have to offer.

I may be wrong, but I don't see my observations and comments as an attack on his views - just that his comments and his pix don't make sense.

If you are going to propose an idea, at least it ought to make sense, hadn't it?

I'd also love for all these "wild horses have the best hooves people" to use the wild horses from marshy areas like Assateague,or the Camargue, or that island who's name escapes me off the FLorida coast.

Just one reading of that photo essay Allie hayes put together in the AFJ will open many of these people's eyes to TRUE so called Wild Horse hoof form!

Considering his article was dealing with sole depth, I was very surprised he didn't give us a solar view, or a bisected solar view cut through the bearing surface.

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-06-2006, 04:36 AM

Who is Pate Ramey's market? e.g. Is it aimed at "pet" owners? Self- trimmers? or Professionals?

And what does he actually do? Is he just selling his own trimming services or attempting to "sell" a methodology with training packages for people to buy in to?

Does he have a big following over there?

I ask those questions genuinely because I'd never heard of him since I went to COTHH - ignorant parochial English man and all that ;)

However I'm wondering if he's like a "Strasser" (full of ideas and no science and trying to sell a flawed methodology), why aren't your professional bodies/councils (whatever) for farriers and vets organising their PR departments to counteract misinformation and to publish relevent accurate facts and alternatives.

Of course if he's some backwater guy with a few protagonists than maybe best just to let him fizzle away but my impression is his junk science is gathering momentum and a fan base - or am I just mixing with the wrong folks on the wrong internet forums?

tbloomer

12-06-2006, 07:34 AM

Who is Pate Ramey's market? e.g. Is it aimed at "pet" owners? Self- trimmers? or Professionals?Same audience as the Oprah Winfrey show.

And what does he actually do? Is he just selling his own trimming services or attempting to "sell" a methodology with training packages for people to buy in to?Look at the "Rehab" pictures on his web site. Most of them are cases of hoof care neglect. So you find some ignorant horse owners what have not provided adequate farrier service or husbandry environment. Convice them that you are a "faith healer." Put them on a regular hoof care schedule. Lo and behold you are a miracle worker.

Does he have a big following over there?From his web site "Our deepest concern is that Natural Hoof Care, and the benefits it can bring to horses, is constantly being “set back” in the eyes of the public by the lack of competent professionals in the field. There are still far too many people out there who are claiming to understand the principles of natural hoof care but doing terrible harm to horses by improper or invasive trimming."

His solution to this problem is to sell his book and a three day training course (count 'em 3 DAYS).

Read the last sentence on this page about his "training program."
http://www.hoofrehab.com/personal_training_with_pete.htm

"You are ENSURING pain and suffering for even considering trying to trim the hooves of a horse!!! (Students will be required to sign this)"

Since he wrote that sentence in passive voice I am not sure if it is the student or the horses what will be ensured pain and suffering. Probably both.:)

I ask those questions genuinely because I'd never heard of him since I went to COTHH - ignorant parochial English man and all that ;)

However I'm wondering if he's like a "Strasser" (full of ideas and no science and trying to sell a flawed methodology), why aren't your professional bodies/councils (whatever) for farriers and vets organising their PR departments to counteract misinformation and to publish relevent accurate facts and alternatives.What do you think www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com/) is? Every other venue on this planet pales in comparison when it comes to relevent accurate facts and alternatives.

Of course if he's some backwater guy with a few protagonists than maybe best just to let him fizzle away but my impression is his junk science is gathering momentum and a fan base - or am I just mixing with the wrong folks on the wrong internet forums?No. You are in the right place. Didn't you learn about Ramey on these forums? We're here for you bro'. :D

tbloomer

12-06-2006, 07:50 AM

. . . wondered how he could become profisint enough at Farriery in three or six years to know enough to teach against it.The conclusion I have drawn from reading "Pete's History" is that he never achieved proficiency at farriery. Everyone has a different learning curve.

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-06-2006, 08:16 AM

Thanks Tom for that explanation. Pretty much confirms what I'd thought.

Got to say I hadn't thought of this forum as being the antidote to the likes of Pete Ramey. I can see its valuable and informative etc etc - otherwise why would I be here :rolleyes: but I can't help feeling that its likely to be breaching to the converted, or to those who are willing to be converted.

p.s. I didn't realise Oprah Winfrey fans were also horse owners - different market sector here ;) . I do however suspect same sector as Pat Parelli training programme fans. :rolleyes:

tbloomer

12-06-2006, 08:55 AM

p.s. I didn't realise Oprah Winfrey fans were also horse owners - different market sector here ;) . I do however suspect same sector as Pat Parelli training programme fans. :rolleyes:Yep, same bunch of folks. Looking for a charismatic guru to follow. The only difference is you won't see supermarket tabloids with pictures of Fat Pat and Skinny Pat . . . maybe if Oprah took up horseback riding she wouldn't be swinging back and forth between fat and skinny. Maybe if Pat learned how to "communicate" with horses he wouldn't have to waive a "carrot stick" at them to get them to move. Sooner or later somebody is going to sell a book of "prayers" for horse owners to recite. Imagine how many behavior problems and hoof problems we could solve if we just get on our knees and pray about it!

Brothers and sisters, put your hand on the radio and feel the power. Please send your donations and gifts to the folowing address . . . the more money you send the harder we'll pray for you.

Joey Aczon

12-06-2006, 10:50 AM

Convice them that you are a "faith healer."

ppppfpfpfffffffttttttttttt <wiping coffee off of laptop> LOL

That is golden, I think it about sums him up.

Jeanie Connors

12-06-2006, 12:02 PM

Read the last sentence on this page about his "training program."
http://www.hoofrehab.com/personal_training_with_pete.htm

"You are ENSURING pain and suffering for even considering trying to trim the hooves of a horse!!! (Students will be required to sign this)"

Since he wrote that sentence in passive voice I am not sure if it is the student or the horses what will be ensured pain and suffering. Probably both.:)

Maybe you should have included the rest of the paragraph there :rolleyes:

"HORSES ARE DANGEROUS. IF YOU GET NEAR ONE, YOU ARE KNOWINGLY RISKING LIFE AND LIMB. IF YOU GET UNDER THEM AND WORK ON THEIR FEET, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY GET HURT, NO MATTER WHAT PRECAUTIONS YOU TAKE. Pete and the owners of the horses and trimming locations can and will assume no responsibility for your safety. You are ENSURING pain and suffering for even considering trying to trim the hooves of a horse!!! "

Guess it's just me, but that was pretty clear that it's the person who's risking their safety ;) . I guess everyone only hears what they want to hear :rolleyes: .

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-06-2006, 12:19 PM

Very funny Tom. Perhaps the book of prayer is a good marketing opportunity and the thing that can make your name and make you a wealthy man?? :rolleyes: ;)

smitty88

12-06-2006, 12:36 PM

Red Amor

12-06-2006, 01:51 PM

Seems the bigger name trimmers and ABUers all learned from good natured Farriers ,[apparently some of questional skill] but none the less good hearted fellers the took these parrisites in hand ofen gave them or sold them cheaply tools gave them a good start in learning , drove them around shouting them ofen lunch introduced them to friends as a friend and no doubt shouted them a few beers at the days end
and for what

To have these ingreats ***** can them and basically spit the kindness given back into the face of these good natured Farriers men and momen alike
they dont pinch the dirty minded horses with the real crook foot they swipe the goodens youve put heaps into and ofen got busted doing it
there is 11 trimmers I know of and 8 Farriers working in my area alone
is it anywonder we wanna drive the boot in their arse and send them on there way
I get a few every now n then ask me to help them learn or can I point them in the right direction , I guess Im just not as good natured as I used to be because the only directions I give now a days is to point towards the out house
I just dont deal with ingratitude n disrespect like I used to
I cant understand how willingly people will hire these noviceses who have limited time in the game with as same skills no tools or other options to turn to other than trimming and boots or turn out
that are about to make the mistakes that We have already well learnt our lessons from
Ofen forsakeing there ol mate the Traditionally trained and skilled Farrier who had been begging then to heed good advise to better help the horse but wouldnt lissen , and very ofen left shoes on far to long or wouldnt fix over flowing water troffs pick up sheep wire tin junk from around the yards
But will lissen to the bull***** of a complete stranger whos on the plane and off the next day waveing out the window like the mouse on the tom n gerry cartoons , Love ya money bye ;)

trimming is easy to get into a couple of hundred bucks will get you good second hand gear a few books vidios dvd and a clinic or two
money for jam ,
Thanks lady n stuff the Redfellars in the Farriery world

anyway its just as well I love doing what I do for a living yeah

Phil Armitage

12-06-2006, 02:18 PM

The conclusion I have drawn from reading "Pete's History" is that he never achieved proficiency at farriery. Everyone has a different learning curve.

That is the same cunclusion I came to.

Bill Adams

12-06-2006, 03:52 PM

i HONSTLY BELIEVE IF AT THE 5-6 YEAR MARK OF MY CARRIER, (fixed caps lock) if I had known about the BUA movement, I may have jumped on the band wagon. Would have had to have been in a higher horse population area to have enough BUA owners to make a living, but $150 per hour triming, compared to $50 pre hour shoeing.
Looks like a good scam for simi retirement.

Hey Tom Stovall!
I'm thinking if you put on a Willy Nelson wig with the head band you could charm those Houston gals with twenty minuts of BS and five minuts of triming, boucou bucks baby!

Bill

Ronald Aalders

12-06-2006, 05:21 PM

Of course if he's some backwater guy with a few protagonists than maybe best just to let him fizzle away but my impression is his junk science is gathering momentum and a fan base - or am I just mixing with the wrong folks on the wrong internet forums?

For some reason I can not begin to understand there is always a group of pet owners that follow whatever claim you can think of.

The mystery about it is that is does not matter at all what the claim is, it even does not matter if that claim contradicts itself! And those following and defending those claims usually are people with jobs and responsibilities! Kids for one! Scary thought.........

What will the horse world look like in 20 years from now? What will happen when all those kids getting taught by parents that think horses are and should be treated as lap dogs, have kids with ponies of their own? Another scary thought..........

Ronald Aalders

Bill Adams

12-06-2006, 05:42 PM

[QUOTE=Ronald Aalders]For some reason I can not begin to understand there is always a group of pet owners that follow whatever claim you can think of.

The mystery about it is that is does not matter at all what the claim is, it even does not matter if that claim contradicts itself! And those following and defending those claims usually are people with jobs and responsibilities! Kids for one! Scary thought.........]

Over here they are political activists who vote, early and often.

[What will the horse world look like in 20 years from now? What will happen when all those kids getting taught by parents that think horses are and should be treated as lap dogs, have kids with ponies of their own? Another scary thought..........]

They won't have horses, they will be in weel chairs from being stomped.

Bill

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-06-2006, 11:42 PM

What will the horse world look like in 20 years from now? What will happen when all those kids getting taught by parents
Ronald Aalders
My 2 year old grandson getting taught the importance of having to pick feet out and who knows in years to come he might be one of the only ones left ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Ponies/lauriedoingthefeet.jpg

Forgewizard

12-07-2006, 12:29 AM

Goo for You Thomas!

Just do us a favor and have the little tyke in a better position for safety sake. Kids LIKE to fly, but while they may bounce upon landing, sometimes they don't roll so well!

Had a client with a little girl that got blasted by their oh so kid safe, bmb proof horse - totally accidental of course, but nevertheless it put the kid in the hospital with a split liver!

They are never too young to learn safely.

Doesn't K.C Lapierre say someting about sarting out s a farrier then turning trimmer only after 4 years too?

I just ran across an occassional client tonight. She's been using a "Strasser trimmer" and wanted me to evaluate her horse. WEll, you know me - I LIKE evaluating!

She presented a 2 yr old half arab gelding with feet trimmed VERY VERY close to the live sole (go figure), NO bars, (oh really?), lateral heel high and forward, medial heel lowered to the sole, medial toe corner long, lateral toe corner rounded. Horse landing toe - heel all fours, very sore across his topline, standing well under himself behind. Moving stiff like an arthritic aged horse. Hind hooves I didn't look at the solar side because horse was so objectionable abot standing three legge for the front!

HE really needs shoes, but that will be like makin a miracle happen with this person. I set her up for a visit next monday when I am back at that barn for more work to get done in the daylight.

I did suggest tonight he'll need some kind of protection for the bottom of his hooves if even to get him to walk more comfortably so he can then restructure his feet correctly. Boots or even diapers and vetwrapat he very least.

ANybody got a magic wand I can use to change the horseowners? I know how to change the horse's hooves!

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-07-2006, 01:04 AM

Goo for You Thomas!

Just do us a favor and have the little tyke in a better position for safety sake. Kids LIKE to fly, but while they may bounce upon landing, sometimes they don't roll so well!

Don't worry he does know that he doesn't do anything unless someone is there and as you can see Abi has hold of the foot. Photo is a bit misleading as he is indeed standing to the side.

And whilst I don't like saying "never" because horses are horses.... but I've NEVER had one of my own kick by accident or intent or even move its feet, come to that if its standing in the yard.

He is however very "confident" and was "helping" me longrein a shetland pony I'm putting to harness last weekend, so we may well have a 5th generation trainer in the making.

And here he is doing his "exercises" (touch the pony's ears and tail and round the world) to acquire balance
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Ponies/touchtheponysears.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Ponies/touchtheponystail.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Ponies/Roundtheworld.jpg

Forgewizard

12-07-2006, 01:21 AM

AWWW! VERy GOOD! I thought I was the only oddbal that encourage the"round the world for blance" trick! he's a lucky tyke!

goeslikestink

12-07-2006, 02:53 AM

ooh tom mate hes so sweet , love them all neds included i do that play with kids and do exercises etc amd teach them how to pick out feet and not only that to when raining and we cant ride then we do chores and have a cuppa and out come the pens and paper and quiz time

i have 6yrs old that can name 10 parts of the foot --
as what i do -- do is give them questions then amrk them
all my kids and adilts that i teach go thorught this sernerio as i believe it helps to keep it in the mind

the youngest kids as they have been with me 1yr are of the lead rein
can also tell you all parts of a horses body and the diaframe and name all esssential bones they can name 20 parts to the hoof

and it dont stop just there its a constance thing i do each fortnight
how many kids do you know that can go out into the field and pick up a handful of grass and name everysingle blade including poisonus weeds such as ragworrt

i am an unarthodox teacher in my teachings and i am strong beleiver if you want to learn to ride you learn it all

and my kids as young or older can tell you what cuases colic
what causes lamintus what cuases thrush and abcesses etc

i give them my knowledge as one day they might have a horse or pony as there own and i want that horse or pony to have the best care one can give

as for forge wisard and the pete ramsey thing
i didnt know who he was either as thomas said had the same view just that tom puts it over so well better than me
as iam deslextic and have to think abit and sometimes it come out in worng context
but i canr beleive you can learn soemthing in 3 days a week whatever
when it taken you guys years - and as to wwhat he says
well dont thik its worth ****ing a pot for to be honest

i have learnt so much in such a short time being on this board
as i lurk at times
i am barefoot with some and shoes for others or half and half
and i alway trust my farrier i cant do what he does altho i have knowledge of the foot and bones and stuff and some ailemnets of what to do
with a prick sole a bruise sole an abcess and control management with lamintus etc
i dont know enought to asrse about and trimming the foot god i wouldnt do that to my horses i would be afraid i would hurt them

and that brings me to a a point of a sort of question type thing
if iam afraid to hurt them by trimming --and say i did trim
would that come under intentional or unintentional
as to hurt --to me if i trimmed the horse and some sort of idea which i do
then i would be intentional hurting them becasue ididnt know what i was doing but unintentional becuae i thought i did---
weird but idont

goeslikestink

12-07-2006, 03:13 AM

i meant to say as well do they really charge that much for a trim---

to a fairrer shoeing horses -- god ---day light robbery

tbloomer

12-07-2006, 07:53 AM

Maybe you should have included the rest of the paragraph there :rolleyes:

"HORSES ARE DANGEROUS. IF YOU GET NEAR ONE, YOU ARE KNOWINGLY RISKING LIFE AND LIMB. IF YOU GET UNDER THEM AND WORK ON THEIR FEET, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY GET HURT, NO MATTER WHAT PRECAUTIONS YOU TAKE. Pete and the owners of the horses and trimming locations can and will assume no responsibility for your safety. You are ENSURING pain and suffering for even considering trying to trim the hooves of a horse!!! "

Guess it's just me, but that was pretty clear that it's the person who's risking their safety ;) . I guess everyone only hears what they want to hear :rolleyes: .The sentence does not have an object to receive the action of the verb. You are free to ASSume that the context of the paragraph implies that "You are ENSURING yourself pain and suffering . . ." However, within the context of ENTIRE PAGE (the 3-day course) one is also free to assume that the horse will also be the recipient of the pain and suffering. But, hey, you can keep guessing.:)

tbloomer

12-07-2006, 08:08 AM

we had one of those bare foot trimmers over in our neck of the woods
think he had 6 years behind him as regards trimming and stuff

he was so awkward under a horse it was a joke
he dident even no how to hold a rasp
let alone how to use itSmitty,

Would you say that this bloke was ensuring himself pain and suffering? :D A rasp can be an instrument of destruction to the hands in which it is held. I think it took me about 2 years to develop good rasp control. Most of the farriers I've asked about it have told me that it took them about 2 years as well. Maybe we should do a survey to find out what the average time is for a farrier to develop some of the basic hand skills required to work safely and with reasonable efficiency. I'm not talking about real professional competance, just the basics of using the tools.

tbloomer

12-07-2006, 08:16 AM

My 2 year old grandson getting taught the importance of having to pick feet out and who knows in years to come he might be one of the only ones left ;)

I see you're teaching him the "German team style" - where one person holds the hoof whilst the other uses the tools. :)

tbloomer

12-07-2006, 08:43 AM

Doesn't K.C Lapierre say someting about sarting out s a farrier then turning trimmer only after 4 years too?No, it's more like 10 or 15 years as a farrier. He is also a Guild Registered Journeyman Farrier. Passed his RJF exam (with hand-made fullered shoes) in spite of not having shod a horse for quite a few years. KC is in a different league when it comes to barefoot advocacy. He does not insist that all horses can or should be kept barefoot. He and his students will not take on a customer who will not (or cannot afford to) make changes in their husbandry practices which will promote a healthy barefoot environment.

KC is also quick to point out that certain riding disciplines and pathologies require shoes in order to serve the interests of the owner/horse. He identifies his niche market as the backyard pet . . . just happens to be the largest and fastest growing segment of the horse industry AND the segment what has the least number of horses what need shoes due to the fact that they have NO performance requirements.

KC does not market his trim as some kind of magic horse healing mojo. What he markets is horse owner education about how to provide a husbandry environment which promotes healthy feet. If a potential customer is not willing to get on board with that concept, he blows them off. OTOH, he is a marketing mastermind. By calling himself a "Equine Podiatrist" instead of a farrier or natural hoof-care trimmer he creates the idea in peoples minds that he is one who "studies the foot."

KarenStandefer

12-07-2006, 08:50 AM

For some reason I can not begin to understand there is always a group of pet owners that follow whatever claim you can think of.

The mystery about it is that is does not matter at all what the claim is, it even does not matter if that claim contradicts itself! And those following and defending those claims usually are people with jobs and responsibilities! Kids for one! Scary thought.........

What will the horse world look like in 20 years from now? What will happen when all those kids getting taught by parents that think horses are and should be treated as lap dogs, have kids with ponies of their own? Another scary thought..........

Ronald Aalders

There are several books written about this personality type. I suspect there are several in the farrier world as well :-) It's also why Bush was elected twice. Probably 100% of the religious right are of this personality type.

http://www.gossamer-wings.com/soc/Notes/race/tsld007.htm

Karen

tbloomer

12-07-2006, 09:22 AM

. . . It's also why Bush was elected twice. Probably 100% of the religious right are of this personality type.In the first election he ran against the guy who invented the Internet.

In the second election he ran against a toasted waffle.

What we have is one party with a bad platform vs. another party whose platform IS "the other party's bad platform." I like to think of it as the party of liars with BAD ideas vs. the party liars with NO ideas.

We see a similar trend in the horse industry. Great masses of uninformed and uneducated consumers are buying horses. The folks with the best marketing program will get their business - regardless of whether or not the ideas being marketed by the marketing gurus make sense. The wheel what squeeks the loudest gets greased.

EileenHughes

12-07-2006, 09:47 AM

calshoer

12-07-2006, 11:10 AM

A Vet even convinced me to try to tip one of them until he landed flat and that would "straighten him out". I did convince him to allow me to achieve this with wedge pads used M/L, rather than chopping perfectly viable sole away. I got him hitting flat and guess what? 3 legged lame in two days..... wedge pads removed...Ok 24 hours later. Guess he (the horse) just doesn't know that he's buggered up. Sure bothers me more than it does him! Good for you to not remove perfectly good sole. Doing that only causes P3 to get pushed down on the high side to level itself to the ground again as it loads, thus encouraging sheared heels.

In a horse who lands like like that,and you know that the bottom of P3 is level to the ground medial laterally, if you get a good AP radiograph you will see that almost always P1 and maybe P2 are assymetrical. One side of the bone longer than the other.
You can't make them land flat because as the foot leaves the ground it tips and flies in an inward arc due to the shape of the joint(s).

If you unbalance the foot to get a flat landing then you will unevenly load the distal joints, smashing the joint spaces on one side, especially the coffin joint, and stressing the collateral ligaments of the coffin joint. Hence the resulting lameness.
Joints do NOT have to be level to the ground medial laterally nor be at a right angle to the long bones of the leg to be evenly loaded.
It is the evenness if the joint *spaces* that is important, not whether they are built level to the cannon bone or to the ground.
So take the lesser of two evils. The impact of a momentary uneven landing is nothing in terms of joint stress compared to unevenly loading the joints during the entire weight bearing phase of the stride. The best you can do is lessen the amount of impact with shoe /pad selection and rounding off more of the shoe at the spot where where they impact .
Patty

calshoer

12-07-2006, 11:28 AM

Who is Pate Ramey's market? e.g. Is it aimed at "pet" owners? Self- trimmers? or Professionals? Both owners who want to do self trimming and professional trimmers.
And what does he actually do? Is he just selling his own trimming services or attempting to "sell" a methodology with training packages for people to buy in to?Teaching trimming through seminars and offering certification of AANCP trimmers. Does he have a big following over there?Yes.
I ask those questions genuinely because I'd never heard of him since I went to COTHH - ignorant parochial English man and all that Hes been around awhile you can read his bio on his website. I've met him and chatted, he is a really sincere guy, out there to help horses in his own way , and nice.

However I'm wondering if he's like a "Strasser" (full of ideas and no science and trying to sell a flawed methodology), He is absolutely NOT a straser follower, and he encorporates more real science into his methodology than most other trimmers. He's about the ony barefoot proponent I have any respect for. As well ,even though he promotes only barefoot, he does show respect to farriers. why aren't your professional bodies/councils (whatever) for farriers and vets organising their PR departments to counteract misinformation and to publish relevent accurate facts and alternatives.We dont have any legal bodies over here regulating farriers therefore it is near impossiole to regulate trimmers. Even your WCF over there can't regulate trimmers at this time, it falls into the hands of your humane groups.
Of course if he's some backwater guy with a few protagonists than maybe best just to let him fizzle away but my impression is his junk science is gathering momentum and a fan base - or am I just mixing with the wrong folks on the wrong internet forums?He's not a backwater guy he's very intellegent and well read. From talking to him in person, and reading his protocols I have discovered that he does NOT agree with most of what Strasser promotes.
When barefooting a horse he takes things slowly and cautiousiy , insists on booting the horse for protection rather than cause the horse soreneess, and unlike so many trimmers will wedge a trimmed foot when it is needed. So if you search deeper into the details of his methodology ,you will probably find that with the exception of refusing to use shoes it is a pretty common sense and careful approach , and unlike some other trimmers methods it is humane.
Patty

Bill Adams

12-07-2006, 12:03 PM

There are several books written about this personality type. I suspect there are several in the farrier world as well :-) It's also why Bush was elected twice. Probably 100% of the religious right are of this personality type.

Karen

The other thing about 100% of the regilous right is how they dump everyone who disigrees with them into one group.
I belive who Ron was talking about was the type who belive in the personhood of animals.

Tom,
The thing I hate about the Democrats is that they just want to tax and spend. With Republicans it's the opposite.

smitty88

12-07-2006, 02:37 PM

Smitty,

Would you say that this bloke was ensuring himself pain and suffering? :D A rasp can be an instrument of destruction to the hands in which it is held. I think it took me about 2 years to develop good rasp control. Most of the farriers I've asked about it have told me that it took them about 2 years as well. Maybe we should do a survey to find out what the average time is for a farrier to develop some of the basic hand skills required to work safely and with reasonable efficiency. I'm not talking about real professional competance, just the basics of using the tools.

Hi Tom
i reckon 4 years Tom to use a rasp well
depends on what standards of work your into

it depends what training you get
the best farriersi have seen use a rasp

are the top English at competition level

im sure there are lots of guys/gals can use a rasp
well

but getting a super finish and dressed foot
the English stand out

just my opinion

Forgewizard

12-07-2006, 09:52 PM

Patty notes out Pete Ramey:
... and he encorporates more real science into his methodology than most other trimmers. Yet he posed pix with a HUGELY incorrect locatio of the lateral cartilages, and in his text doesn't exlain what scientific methods he employed to back up is observations.

As well ,even though he promotes only barefoot, he does show respect to farriers. Those diagrams of trim lines heposted and the comments about ow farriers trim are not only icorrect, but IMO very derrogatory towards farriers. Granted he includes at least one group of barefoot trimmers following a specific methodology, but many comments a directed straight at shoes and the people that apply them.

He's not a backwater guy he's very intellegent and well read.
You can be well read and still be quite ignorant, being well read doesn't necessarily equate to intelligence. He writes fairly well too, but his articles are extremely hard to comprehend and the ideas presented are difficult to follow. Certainly his illustrations are misleading too.

I don't have a problem with someone promoting a supposedly "new" idea or a "new" method, but lets back it up with intelligent, well thought out illustrations and if you are going to make specfic claims, then let's see the science behind it too!

He hasn't proved that to me yet. Does he need to prve anything to me? Nope. But he doesn't need to lump me into the category of evil farrier either, like he so easily dismisses everyone else's trim approach except his!

Joey Aczon

12-08-2006, 12:37 PM

Kim, I have found that some of the most successful people teaching today's average adult are extremely simplistic in their examples and demonstrations. As surprising as it sounds, most people learn best when using pre-school teaching methods. I kind of relate his drawings on the foot to a Fisher Price anatomy kit / book what have you. I do see however, if you are teaching a novice the limitations / tolerances of trimming a foot why you would want to show that kind of exaggeration.

Conversely, I think this lends itself to the under-trimmed horses you see by alot of these so called pro-trimmers.

And aside from that, he is obviously biased in his methodology, so I don't see why someone would be surprised by him making "less than accurate" statements. I can say that I have seen people follow those types of trimming lines on a regular basis. I was trained that way, alot of people were trianed that way. Granted I don't do that anymore, but alot of people still do. and it is those people that put the weight to the BUA argument.

A well known martial artist said once, "When an attacker comes to attack you, they should feel like they are trying to grab onto a balloon that the air is being let out of." This makes me think that instead of working against the BUA we should be working with each other. JMHO

calshoer

12-08-2006, 08:53 PM

Yet he posed pix with a HUGELY incorrect locatio of the lateral cartilages, and in his text doesn't exlain what scientific methods he employed to back up is observations. Yes unfortunatly the simple line drawing he shows of the cartilage makes it look like it goes all the way forward on the bone, cant understand why he used that drawing because I KNOW he knows better) but remember there IS a ligament connection from the dorsal part of the cartilage to the distal aspect of P2. So even though he drew the lines ****py, the connection from cartilage to bone will be well forward of the front of the actual cartilage.

Hes really just talking about internal shearing as the foot lands unevenly, and the importance of not invading live sole plane to try to reblance a foot that naturally does not land flat. He is correct that a normal foot that is balanced lands slightly lateral heel first. That IS scientifically proven I believe the studies were from Tracy Turner? Texas A&M force plate studies.Aswell he is correct about the sole depth beign equal under the sides of the lateral cartilagesand the importance of leavign it that way. Thats Mike Savoldis uniform sole thickness studies.

As to the lateral cartilages semi permanently changing their position in the foot in response to the loading, Im assuming he found that from so many dissectionsas he mentions the importance of doing dissections on as many hooves as you can to see this for yourself. And he's done hundreds. But why don't you Email him and just ASK where he got the lateral cartilage shifting information if not just from his personal observation ?

I read the article and frankly it makes sense when it comes to the sole plane. Thats all it is really about .

And Most clinicians dont tell you in their websites all the science sources they use. But if you go to their clinics you can find out. I've talked to him in person and I try to judge people after I've gotten some first hand info not just from a limited view from a website overview. Dont condemn him just because he a trimmer. Hes not not there personally hurting horses like a lot of them are.
Patty

Phil Armitage

12-08-2006, 10:02 PM

As to the lateral cartilages semi permanently changing their position in the foot in response to the loading, Im assuming he found that from so many dissectionsas he mentions the importance of doing dissections on as many hooves as you can to see this for yourself. And he's done hundreds. But why don't you Email him and just ASK where he got the lateral cartilage shifting information if not just from his personal observation ?

Patty

Sidebone and sheared heels come to mind. That is a semi perminant change.

tbloomer

12-09-2006, 06:59 AM

Hi Tom
i reckon 4 years Tom to use a rasp well
depends on what standards of work your into

it depends what training you get
the best farriersi have seen use a rasp

are the top English at competition level

im sure there are lots of guys/gals can use a rasp
well

but getting a super finish and dressed foot
the English stand out

just my opinionIn my opinion it depends on what hand skills you have before you start out as a farrier. Those who start out with no experience using hand tools to do precision work are likely to take a lot longer to develop finess. I've not yet seen a farrier finish a foot so perfectly that it would compare to the finish on fine yacht carpentry and certainly not like the finish on a fine musical instrument like a hand made guitar.

I've known a good number of serious artisans like shipwrights (fine yacht carpentry) and luthiers (musical instrument makers) in my years. I don't think that any of them would ever seriously consider participating in a competition what determined who was the best woodworker. For that matter I don't think you'll ever see dentists engaged in cavity filling contests or surgeons engaged in suturing competitions either.

tbloomer

12-09-2006, 07:26 AM

. . . I've talked to him in person and I try to judge people after I've gotten some first hand info not just from a limited view from a website overview. Dont condemn him just because he a trimmer. Hes not not there personally hurting horses like a lot of them are.
Patty
Patty,

As a person engaged in farriery instruction you should get this. It is not the instructors what are hurting the horses. It is the students comming out of the short courses what have the potential to do harm.

"The “green” horse owner may be ready to take competent care of their horses hooves."

As a tenured professional farrier who now teaches a farrier short course (which you have insisted on these boards is way to short to teach farrier competence). Do you really buy into the statement quoted above in the context of a 3-day trim course?

Bill Adams

12-09-2006, 09:59 AM

This makes me think that instead of working against the BUA we should be working with each other. JMHO

Right on the money, Joey.
The problem is we're not telling anyone that all horses must be shod. True Barefoot Uber Allis types will not ever concider steel shoes.
Bill

smitty88

12-09-2006, 10:40 AM

In my opinion it depends on what hand skills you have before you start out as a farrier. Those who start out with no experience using hand tools to do precision work are likely to take a lot longer to develop finess. I've not yet seen a farrier finish a foot so perfectly that it would compare to the finish on fine yacht carpentry and certainly not like the finish on a fine musical instrument like a hand made guitar.

I've known a good number of serious artisans like shipwrights (fine yacht carpentry) and luthiers (musical instrument makers) in my years. I don't think that any of them would ever seriously consider participating in a competition what determined who was the best woodworker. For that matter I don't think you'll ever see dentists engaged in cavity filling contests or surgeons engaged in suturing competitions either.

Tom i just mentioned competition just because thats where you
would get to see them

you will find with most of these farriers that this is there every day
work

thats why there so good there every day work is no different
than there competition stuff

Joey Aczon

12-09-2006, 12:57 PM

Tom i just mentioned competition just because thats where you
would get to see them

you will find with most of these farriers that this is there every day
work

thats why there so good there every day work is no different
than there competition stuff

Well that and you can't make a boat or an instrument of any quality in a days time. Makes judging harder, and dosen't really appeal for spectators.

calshoer

12-10-2006, 12:03 AM

tbloomer

12-10-2006, 07:50 AM

Well that and you can't make a boat or an instrument of any quality in a days time. Makes judging harder, and dosen't really appeal for spectators.What about cavity timed cavity filling contests for dentists? It could be a new reality TV show! Shipwrites could have a contest to see who could make the prettiest mahogany fiddlerail in an hour.:)

tbloomer

12-10-2006, 08:42 AM

Tom when he suggests that a green horse owner may be able to take competent care of their own horses feet , he does use the word "may" , not "will". I actually have taught some horse owners to do their own trimming and believe it or not some CAN do a decent everyday maintainance trim job on their own horses after just a weekend. Certainly not fast, but safe and decent. And certainly not everyone can do a trim after one session , but those with natural skills can. A couple of my own students last year who had never held trim tools on a live hoof before were doing pretty decent barefoot trims by the second trimming day. Just excruciatingly slow.
PattyCompetent care? Would you send them off to trim feet, even their own horses without supervision? Does three days with Pete Ramey eliminate a horse owner's need for the services of a professional hoof care provider? Having been indoctrinated against farriery and the evils of shoeing, aren't these students putting themselves in the position where they are now completely dependent upon Pete Ramey for their "truth?"

"There is no way for horse owners to know if they are hiring a competent professional or not. For that reason Ivy and I are making a renewed effort to reach out and educate."

Upon review of his list of "Successful, Peer Reviewed Professional Hoof Trimmers available for consultation" I do not see your name, nor do I recognize the names of any of the successful peer reviewed professionals who post on these boards. What do we (professional farriers) have to do to be "accepted as trimmers" by the AHA?

http://www.americanhoofassociation.org/

Forgewizard

12-10-2006, 09:36 AM

Tom wonders:What do we (professional farriers) have to do to be "accepted as trimmers" by the AHA?

That's easy Tom! I'm surprised you even needed to ask!:rolleyes:

In order for the esteemed members of the "AHA" to accept us, all we'd have to do is swear off application of the****utic devices and artificial appliances attached to the hooves!

Rick Burten

12-10-2006, 10:18 AM

One more barefooter scam perpetrated on an gullible public.

EEEEWWWWW, the AANHCP(or whatever), the HPT, the SHC, etc, ad naseum aren't good enough! We, the AHA have hit upon the only good way to trim a horse so only those who have received absolution from us are really qualified to work on your horse.............. What a full diaper of cr-a-pola!!

I wonder whose pockets are getting lined and whose bank accounts are getting replenished by this latest entrant into the field of barefoot puffery.

I'm not much amused, but I'm willing to bet that one of my heroes, Mssr. Phinneas T. Barnum, looking down from heaven, is.

Rick

tbloomer

12-10-2006, 10:54 AM

calshoer

12-10-2006, 11:49 AM

Competent care? Would you send them off to trim feet, even their own horses without supervision? My personal philosophy is that if they showed enough common sense and ability at the end of the weekend, then yes, ONLY their own horses, and with the caveat that they only do light maintainance trims on sound horses. AND that they continue to come for more education before they try to do any very overgrown hooves, and do not try to trim lame horses, and that they must consider getting a good farrier to shoe horses that need shoes.
If they did not show enough skill after a weekend then I would advise them to wait until they get more intruction and training before trying to trim without supervision.

Everyone here sems to think Im trying to defend Pete's *entire* philosophy of BUA, which I'm not. Im a farrier wikll always be a farrier and believe in shoes whenever necessary. So please keep in context what Ive always said about Pete Ramey.
Im just trying to be FAIR to about the parts of Pete's philosophy which I think are OK and are being unfairly attacked. There IS a middle ground that can be found in the barefoot movement vs the farriers. There IS some common sense and science in his techings, more than the other barefooters. Thats it.

Now....Since so many of these other trimmers( many relatively inexperienced themselves ) are going out there and teaching cr*p for a whole lot of money, then someone needs to be teaching something common sense and safe.

Therefore I personally am gearing up to begin scheduling Natural Balance barefoot trimming seminars for horse owners. With Gene O's blessing.
These clinics are NOT intended for owners to ever consider being professionals, NOT to EVER advise them that the should barefoot all their horses, and NOT expecting that they will have professional level skills.
But they are intended to teach something I think is a common sense, safe, consostant and pretty easy to follow protocol for those owners who want to be able to so some everyday hoof maintaince on sound feet. Theres no reason they can't. I've seen too many owners who can do perfectly good work on theor own horses, IF they are taught good information.

In fact one reason I am supportive of owners trimming their own (when the horses can be barefoot ) is that the beginnings of my farrier career came from trimming my own 3 horses, after just a day of instruction from my own farrier and a lot of at-home practice. Then I graduated to trimming other paoples horses part time for pocket money, then on to farrier school a year later.

I believe that with a combination of todays economy and the disillusionment of owners toward a lot of farriers nowdays, that horse owner self-trimming is here to stay. And growing.
So if someone is going to insist on trimming their own horses, then next to the trims that experienced farriers perform, the trimming clinics protocols that Pete promotes is closer to safe and good sense than the other BUA practitionars. NO more no less. I certainly do *not* believe in teaching BUA so don't assume that I'm jumping ship.

I believe that if a horse is going to be barefoot that Natural Balance trimming is even more common sense and scientific than what Pete teaches, so Im going to jump in and teach owners too. Someone's gotta do it. It might as well be me.

Patty

Mike Ferrara

12-10-2006, 12:52 PM

There's nothing new about horse owner doing their own trimming and shoeing. Just like it's nothing new for a car owner to do their own work. I don't know if it's even a growing thing. If anything, what's growing is the idea that you need someones permission to do it, the idea of paying someone to teach you how or making a business of teaching them how.

I've known lots of trainers that could shoe a horse when they had to and I know at least one who went to shoeing full time. My own wife has had horses most of her life and has done her own when she was between farriers or couldn't afford to hire it done. I used to do a lot of hunting and I knew LOTS of farmers who were old enough to have farmed with horses and most of them had to do at least some of their own shoeing. It just went along with doing some of everything else that needed to be done around a farm.

I can't imagine anyone in a situation where they depended on their horses not at least having some basic tools and supplies for emergencies. I know I carry a set of wrenches in my truck even though I don't hire myself out as a mechanic.

I think some of this mentality we're seeing now came along when horse ownership shifted from fairly poor people who needed horses for work to wealthy people who just have them for fun.

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-10-2006, 01:50 PM

I think some of this mentality we're seeing now came along when horse ownership shifted from fairly poor people who needed horses for work to wealthy people who just have them for fun.
You think??? Its interesting to note that from the fellowship of professional farriers was established in London in 1356.

Its also worthy of note that throughout history a horse has been a valuable asset and even at the times when it was ordinarily a "work beast" it was good animal husbandry that if you were dependent on your horse for work and business that you needed to protect your valuable asset and keep it well serviced and well maintained to maximum the return on your capital expenditure so its sound for as many years as possible.

Regrettably though not everyone had the forethought to appreciate you protect your assets by looking after them and so many were abused and suffered through ignorance and intent.

Speaking for myself I dislike this "d-i-y have a go" tendency because unlike cars, horses are animate objects and my preference is to prevent and avoid suffering by cruelty to horses arising from the trimming and shoeing of horses by unskilled persons. And personally I don't particularly care if someone is just doing their own horse or being paid to do horses for other people, if they're minimally trained and doing it infrequently it will be a miracle of good luck if they're doing it very well and more common for them to be doing it badly and its the horse that suffers.

Like any practical skill if you're well trained in the first place and practicing it regularly you'll never get any good and I'm to be persuaded that someone with 3 days training and a modi*** of good sense and good intent can go on to trim even their own horse every 5 weeks and keep it sound and in hard work throughout a long working life.

Forgewizard

12-10-2006, 02:12 PM

Patty posts( in blue): Im just trying to be FAIR to about the parts of Pete's philosophy which I think are OK and are being unfairly attacked. There IS a middle ground that can be found in the barefoot movement vs the farriers. There IS some common sense and science in his techings, more than the other barefooters. Thats it.

Well the reason I posted his diagrams was because he IS definitely NOT presenting accurate information. I didn't see much common sense there and if I was a "regular" horse owner with very little anatomy knowledge, not only would I believe these diagrams, I also wouldn't really understand what he is saying about the lateral cartilages and sole plane. He isn't exatly what I would call clear in presenting his ideas. WHich, if he is trying to teach the horseowner about hooves and hoofwork, hadn't they ought to teach correct anatomy AND present it in a manner that is understandable?

So if someone is going to insist on trimming their own horses, then next to the trims that experienced farriers perform, the trimming clinics protocols that Pete promotes is closer to safe and good sense than the other BUA practitionars. NO more no less. I certainly do *not* believe in teaching BUA so don't assume that I'm jumping ship.

Again, if the correct basic hoof anatomy isn't presented how can one teach a "safe" trimming method?

I didnt have one iota of an idea that you, Patty were jumping the farrier ship. I've never been one that thinks just because a person has one good idea or one bad idea that everything else they present is in similar fashion. But if you are going to present something that opposes a particular method, then present the opposition correctly; don't be so blatantly derrogatory.

Owners should know what to look for and how to see good hoof form and if they want to work on their own horse's hooves fine, no problem! I started that way too! There are enough horses to go around and enough owners that don't want to do or cannot do hoofwork to keep me occupied.

He keeps fueling the fire that farriers aren't worth hiring though with many of his statements as well as posting the diagrams marked like he did. And that s just ONE article I reviewed! I know he has pages and pages of stuff on the net.

Yes, I am contacting him with my observations; should prove interesting. We each have our own convictions don't we?

jack-mac

12-10-2006, 02:59 PM

And i will keep shooting the mistakes bang bang

Mike Ferrara

12-10-2006, 07:18 PM

You think??? Its interesting to note that from the fellowship of professional farriers was established in London in 1356.

Well that's London. I'm sure that people driving cariages in Chicago typically used the services of a farrier too...city folks. On the other hand, in rural areas, it was often the local blacksmith shop that provided horse shoeing services. I don't know what kind of training they had in farriery but in either case they would likely have been located in town and I doubt the typical farmer got all his horses to town every time they needed shoeing.

To this day, some of the old farms are great places to stumble onto old blacksmithing equipment and I've found buckets full of farrier tools in quit a few...though those old farms are rapidly disapearing.

Its also worthy of note that throughout history a horse has been a valuable asset and even at the times when it was ordinarily a "work beast" it was good animal husbandry that if you were dependent on your horse for work and business that you needed to protect your valuable asset and keep it well serviced and well maintained to maximum the return on your capital expenditure so its sound for as many years as possible.

Regrettably though not everyone had the forethought to appreciate you protect your assets by looking after them and so many were abused and suffered through ignorance and intent.

I don't know that it's correct to assume that all those folks who did some, or all, of their own shoeing necessarily did it poorly or didn't know what they were doing. I would imagine that, for many farms, having at least one member of the houshold who was able to do a functional job of getting shoes on a horse was just a necessity. Could you imagine putting all your work on hold and traveling 10 miles into town because a horse lost a shoe? How would you get the horse to town? I think the animal would have to walk. The time to put the shoe back on would be before the 10 mile trip rather than after. I'll have to do a little research and see what's writen on the subject.

calshoer

12-10-2006, 08:44 PM

Kiom said: But if you are going to present something that opposes a particular method, then present the opposition correctly; don't be so blatantly derrogatory.HUh? I have no idea what that comment is referencing. ?? And I was NOT directing the "me jumping ship" comment to anyone in particular, I just wanted to be clear that my support of certain parts of a trimmer's work ,and the fact that I teach barefoot trimming aside from shoeing , does not mean I support the trimmer's entire philosophy. Hope thats more clear. GOSH things can sure get twisted here.
Patty

Mike Ferrara

12-10-2006, 09:20 PM

Regarding the frequency of farmers doing their own shoeing...I didn't find much floating around the internet. What I found was mostly concerning the history of specific towns or farms. Here are a couple of examples.

From From www.farmmuseum.org/blacksmith.htm (http://www.farmmuseum.org/blacksmith.htm)

Today, the blacksmith shop sits on the grounds of the New Hampshire Farm Museum and is overseen by Mr. Clayton Shibles. Clayton Shibles grew up on a dairy farm in Maine where his family had a long history of blacksmithing. He demonstrates his smithing skills at the Farm Museum on many Saturdays during the open season. Although the shop is not original to the Jones Farm it is representative of farm structures common to rural New Hampshire where farmers often adopted a skill such as blacksmithing so that they could repair their own equipment and diversify their income.

From wolfeboroonline.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=3 (http://wolfeboroonline.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=3)
Local Blacksmith Shops
Before automobiles were common in the early 1900s, horses furnished most of the power for transportation of people and freight except for the railroads. Every horse had to be fitted with horseshoes by local blacksmiths although some farmers shed their own horses. Blacksmiths also did a lot of heavy iron work, making such things as hinges for barndoors and fence gates. They also made such tools as long handled ice chisels for cutting holes in the ice. In Wolfeboro, there was a blacksmith shop on Mill Street and one on Union Street, corner of Lehner Street. There was also one at Wolfeboro Falls near the railroad crossing. The shop on Union Street had a sling for shoeing oxen allowing them to be lifted up and shed in mid-air. When Al Crosby ran that shop in later years, he hammered out the beautiful wrought iron frames and supports which held the "Wolfeboro, the Oldest Summer Resort in America" signs at each town line. Boys, who used to watch as the blacksmiths clanged out horseshoes, glowing red from the forge, were often given a ring which the blacksmith made from an iron horseshoe nail and which the boy wore until his finger got rusty.

calshoer

12-10-2006, 10:01 PM

He keeps fueling the fire that farriers aren't worth hiring though with many of his statements as well as posting the diagrams marked like he did. And that s just ONE article I reviewed! I know he has pages and pages of stuff on the net. Well a lot of farrier's today *arent* worth hiring, and those are the ones that make the trimmers do what they do. I follow behind plenty of those poor farriers and fix the wrecks, and we see their work here all the time as well.
The barefoot movement is the kick in the *** the farrier industry needs to shape up or ship out.

Maybe you should review the pages and pages instead of one article.
I'm doing that tonight, and have read at least half the site so far and don't see any disrespect to farriers in there.
I dont think that believing that shoes are not necesary is the same thing as disrespecting farriers.

Though he says that you don't need to shoe horses (which I disagree with) no where can I find in his site where he knocks farriers for being farriers.
I don't worry about him telling owners the don't need to hire farriers, because most owners still continue to need farriers, so its no threat to me.
I even personally know one former Strasser certified trimmer who is now learning to do N. B. shoeing. There will always be a need for farriers and we know that.
Pete's entitled to his opinion about shoes. And his opinion ain't hurting me one bit .
He does say that too many farriers have been misinformed about some important aspects of the horses foot (which I totally agree with) and....
that it causes them frustration in trying to successfully treat problems such as navicular syndrome. (and I agree with THAT too).
He isnt knocking farriers, he is knocking what they have been taught. He says that farriers have gotten better informed in recent years and the whole farrier induistry is thankfully changing its approach to the hoof (which I believe it is).
In fact he offers open respect and even reverence to one old farrier who taught him way back when about the simplicity of keeping shod horses sound.(which he ignored for some years then later discovered the old guy was right) ....the advice from the old farrier mentor was just keep heels trimmed back, keep the frog on the ground, don't invade live sole, and get the toe of the shoe back under the foot .
The more I read his site the more I see just plain old common sense.
And no disrespect to farriers in what Ive read so far.
I've read about half the site including the section on the politics of shoeing where he says he disagrees with farriers about the need to shoe , but he does NOT say he disrespects them for what they do. He's one of the few trimmers with that attitude. If you can find anything he wrote that actually disrespects farriers for being farriers, then show me cause I'd like to read it first hand.
Patty

tbloomer

12-10-2006, 10:42 PM

And i will keep shooting the mistakes bang bang
Jack-mac . . . get closer and then you only need one "bang." Do we need to send a Texan down there to teach you how to shoot? :)

tbloomer

12-10-2006, 10:51 PM

You're just jealous because you can't sell your ideas to the public like they can. Quit whining and go hire a marketing firm to come up with a new brand name and acronym for what you do. How about the "Transparency Trimming and Shoeing" for starters? "Honest service form honest farriers" . . . Where's your "T.T.S. Farrier" logo (button)?:D Since Rick (being a moderator with a rogue mouse) edited my post instead of hitting the "QUOTE" button, I've taken the liberty of fixing his post.

You did mean 'from' not 'form' didn't you? :p

But the "T.T.S" is way, way, way too close to being mistaken for "T.S.S." so for me, that dog won't hunt.
:D

How about: "You and your horse deserve a D.O.W.N. farrier"(Do Only What's Necessary)

or

"Is your farrier a D.O.W.N.er? If not, S/He should be!" :)

Or K(nowledgable)E(xperienced)W(ise)L(iterate) "Is your farrier KEWL? Or, "I'm a KEWL farrier" or "How KEWL is your farrier?"etc.

Rick (POSTED BY RICK)

tbloomer

12-10-2006, 11:18 PM

If you can find anything he wrote that actually disrespects farriers for being farriers, then show me cause I'd like to read it first hand.
Patty
Ok here it is - disrespectful bovine excretia in red:

"Farriers who were trained to always allow horses to go bare during the off season were suddenly getting angry at the mere mention of a barefoot horse. Many of them now insist the horses must be perpetually shod. The longer a horse goes with continual year round shoeing, the easier it is for a natural hoof care practitioner to come along and triple the capabilities of the horse"

jack-mac

12-10-2006, 11:39 PM

Jack-mac . . . get closer and then you only need one "bang." Do we need to send a Texan down there to teach you how to shoot? :)Always give them two it pays to be thorough would like to empty the clip on some of the owners though its a pity we have laws that dont allow it ;)

calshoer

12-10-2006, 11:46 PM

jvzieger

12-11-2006, 02:39 AM

Tom ....well some farriers DO say that.. and he's disagreeing with them . Thats his perogative.
But where in the site is it? Which article or page? I haven't read *everything* in there yet and I want to see it in context.
Thanks

Patty,

First of all, I like and respect almost all of what you write here. I'm not going to comment on Pete Ramey's methodologies as I have not done enough research on him yet. But I do have some comments on the barefoot short course you offer and your defense of it.

I agree with what you are saying, there are a lot of bad farriers out there, and that is driving many people to BUA and DIY trimming.

OTOH... Even if you determine that some horseowner has natural ability to accurately trim there own sound horse (while under your supervision, having just been through your course), you cannot be assured that they will remember that skill with enough accuracy to reproduce those results every five to six weeks for the rest of that horses life (and every other horse they decide they are qualified to work on).

You also cannot be certain that they won't start trimming their friends horses who is "having trouble" with their farrier ( I know horseowners that do this). You also don't know that they won't decide to teach others what they've learned from you, because they're certain they've learned from the best.

Now, I'm no prodigy at this craft. I've studied and apprenticed under some amazing teachers (for many months), I continue to attend all the clinics and conferences I can, I take before and after pictures of a lot of my work and study those, I occasionally get radiographs of my work to determine true locations, I've done several dissections, I am on this board learning at 2am, I shoe or trim trim horses 5 to 7 days a week, and I'm about to go back for 4 more months of school, and I still won't be as good as I want to be. To me, greatness in this craft takes years of regular practice combined with all of those other practices I undertake.

Now you may say that the backyard owner that's trimming their own horse does not need to be great, and maybe that's true. But those angles will eventually become "off", and 5 years after your course, I suspect they'll be hard pressed to remember what your version of a truly balanced foot should look like. The thing is, they won't know what they don't know. They will continue on trimming out of balance thinking that they are doing just what they have always done, and just what they were taught.

So, are you really doing the horses or anyone a favor to "teach" them how to trim their own horse? It's one thing if a farmer a trainer or an owner decides that they have watched the expensive farrier enough times that they will now do it themselves. For that person, they know that they don't know a lot, and eventually when they screw it up, they will come back and ask for help. However, your student was just empowered to think that they know something. They are not likely to forget that they took a course and were once qualified to trim a horse, but they will eventually forget some of just what they were taught and in the end, years down the road, those horses will likely suffer for it. Also, by formalizing this, aren't you perpetuating the notion that anybody with any natural ability can easily do this? JMHO, YMMV

Mike Ferrara

12-11-2006, 05:59 AM

Tom ....well some farriers DO say that.. and he's disagreeing with them . Thats his perogative.
But where in the site is it? Which article or page? I haven't read *everything* in there yet and I want to see it in context.
Thanks

I don't get around as much as some of you do but I've known a few other farriers and I have never heard one say that.

If there's one big problem I see with the "barefoot movement" is that it's marketing is so strongly bases on straw man arguements. To me, that a strong indication of one of two things. Either they just don't know what they are talking about or they are liars.

David Hayne

12-11-2006, 06:06 AM

Good day.......With know laws in place in North America concerning who can trim or shoe a horse, anyone can do it and its legal....also anyone can Teach their shoeing or trimming practice..........and we all know what happened when the AFA made an attempt to talk about Certification..........

Speaking only for myself, I have my own history on my experince working with horses and studying my farriery trade......I grew up watching horses working on the farm and pulling logs out of the forest....the people who could keep a horse sound and keep shoes on where the most popular horseshoers to hire to do the job in my community.....I was lucky to have a Father and Uncle who where those two horseshoers ....the term farrier came into my life when I wanted to know how to make a horse shoe and this started my farriery science trade/ schooling and now a full time job.

As machines replaced horses 99% of my clients now have horses that are used mainly for horse shows and recreation......and 50% of those clients simple trust me to do a good job and keep their horse sound....they simple trust me. The other % have some idea what I do....some try to tell me what to do..and some will change farriers as often as they change their underwear...times have changed.

As far as Barefoot only......click that into your computer and see what responses you get.....overwhelming at times...as far as who it is , it just makes know difference to me....I studied a few of them because my clients asked the question and I had to have an answer.....and as most of us farriers know Not All Horses Can Go Barefoot...

As a Farrier I question why the Barefoot Movement became so popular....is our profession lacking in its marketing skills or are we simple not providing the service that our clients want .....

In my search for knowledge and to further my own personal skill level I became a member of the American Farrier Association and wrote and passed the CF written exam....when I started studing for this exam I realized that I knew almost nothing about the Art of Farriery and I wondered how many horses did I harm in my care before I dedicated my life to my farriery studies.

I have had calls from clients who told me that these so called Barefoot Only people who teach these week end courses have made a special point to go to my horses that I shoe and trim and found flaws with my work....I have been told that they even have taken some of my quotes from this site and pasted them onto their own personnal web sites....Humans !

I enjoy very much talking with Farriers and Trimmers who can educate me....but if someone tells me that putting shoes on horses causes heart failure , etc...etc....then I cannot learn from them....peoples ideas may have changed over these modernization years but the hoof is still a Hoof.

I belong to my local Farrier Association and we hold clinics with Certified Journeyman Farriers, I also belong to the AFA and this is the way I try to stay educated.....would I try to teach someone to trim or shoe their horse on a week end.......NO.......because you simple cannot learn enough in two days...two weeks...two years.....Farriery Science is a Study forever..I have learned just when I think I know it all a horse comes along and teaches me something that I forgot or did not know. If I need help I will search it out...."Yeah", for this Site.

In closing and just to firm up my own knowledge / views....

How many of your clients know what a Certified Journeyman Farrier is....good poll question to ask...

It is my opinion concerning Farriers who earned the title... Certified Journeyman Farriers with the American Farrier Asscoiation truly indeed worked hard in their studies of Farriery Science and they truly have "my up most respect".

I am curious to know if any CJF are teachers of Barefoot Only Clinics.....ALSO...does anyone know how many of these Barefoot Only Teachers wrote and passed the CJF Exam....I just like to know Who is Teaching Who...and I think the horse people should be made aware of this then they can be the judge on who they want to study under.

have a great day,

David

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-11-2006, 08:12 AM

Excellent posting David. Its always difficult for someone to judge the services of someone else if they don't have good basic knowledge. (no matter what they're looking to buy). I personally didn't know what made a certified journeyman farrier in the USA until I found myself "compelled" to find out when over there doing clinics and discovering some of the most horrific feet I've ever seen and trying to help owners (who were innocently ignorant) to find someone who could provide a decent trim and good and appropriate shoeing. And I've got to say that in the area where I was (Oregon and Montana) I found it easier to find unqualified, incompetent ones than good ones.

Regrettably you don't know what you don't know. Hence there's so called riding instructors that have never actually achieved anything with horses of their own and aren't qualified at all and teach folks 10 in a class and playing follow my leader or circus elephants and told to "kick" and "pull" - I call that being taken for a ride and their customers often never know that there is a different and more effective and better way to learn and to achieve more.

There's so-called farriers who have merely worked next to someone else who has experience and served time but may well have been trained by someone whose also been trained in bad practice.

My initial degree was electronic and electrical engineering and when I worked in that profession for a time I did insurance assessment and the work I saw by "so called" electricians was positively horrific - now of course I was seeing the worst - post fire and post electrocution and every person who bought the work believed they were buying a competent electrician and those who sold their services always believed that because they'd served time with someone else and did what they did rigourously that they were doing it right.

I'm a huge advocate for minimal standards nationally accredited and routinely audited by peer group and external assessors - no matter what the skill or profession is. Of course there's no such thing as a perfect system but it does help to protect the customer and the professional and neither of those categories should fear certification and endorsement of standards.

tbloomer

12-11-2006, 09:22 AM

Tom ....well some farriers DO say that.. and he's disagreeing with them . Thats his perogative.
But where in the site is it? Which article or page? I haven't read *everything* in there yet and I want to see it in context.
ThanksAccording to a previous post:

I've read about half the site including the section on the politics of shoeing
Since you pointed out that article, that's where I went and that's what I found. I've yet to ever hear a farrier say that. Certainly haven't seen it in print - except when it is said by the BOA (Barefoot Only Allies).

tbloomer

12-11-2006, 09:40 AM

I am curious to know if any CJF are teachers of Barefoot Only Clinics.....ALSO...does anyone know how many of these Barefoot Only Teachers wrote and passed the CJF Exam....I just like to know Who is Teaching Who...and I think the horse people should be made aware of this then they can be the judge on who they want to study under.

have a great day,

DavidKC Lapierre of www.equinepodiatry.net (http://www.equinepodiatry.net) is a Registered Journeyman Farrier with the Guild of Professional Farriers. www.guildfarriers.org (http://www.guildfarriers.org)

You might want to check out KC's course requirements for his students level 1 podiatry certification. . . 200 hours of hands on instruction plus about a year of online study of anatomy and biomechanics.

Membership entry requirements for the Guild exceed the AFA CJF requirements in respect to minimum experience and full time professional status. The RJF requirements are on the Guild web site.

calshoer

12-11-2006, 04:47 PM

I really don't give a hoot about the CJF certification for barefoot, because it is promarily a forging skill leveland who ned to forge for barefoot?
and ...Besides , the AFA shoeing guidelines for the testing applies incorrect biomechanics to the hoof anyway, and that is why so many people are going to barefoot in the first place.
Plenty of those people HAD CJF or equal level farriers prior to giving up on shoes in frustration with lame horses that were not getting better. Its the very shoeing principles that guide the AFA testing protocols and the CJF level that care CAUSING the exodus to barefoot. I cant see why anyone wanting to learn the science of the foot and trimming barefoot would need to know if their instructor was a CJF cause it doesnt even apply in that situation. Patty

jack-mac

12-11-2006, 05:10 PM

Gary Hill

12-11-2006, 05:17 PM

Popcorn Time!

calshoer

12-11-2006, 05:51 PM

The blood vessels in jacs head are popping as we speak. :D

calshoer

12-11-2006, 05:59 PM

Joey Aczon

12-11-2006, 06:04 PM

awww, didn't get popcorn in time.... :D

Keep in mind this is the guy that said shoeing is "just slapping on some steel"

jack-mac

12-11-2006, 06:47 PM

And jacmac, besides your personal opinion of my shoeing knowledge and skills based on your not knowing me at all, what exactly IS your point pertainign to this discussion?
Is it that the AFA is some sort of shoeing god and therefore I shouldnt be teaching because I happen to disagree with the AFA shoeing test protocols? .....or is it that you disagree that high level forging skills are not a necessary part of barefoot trimming?
PattyI dont have to know you personally nor would i want too it seems you like to sit on fences well enjoy some of my splinters let me guess "you care about horses & that you run around fixing them from bad farriers" but in the next breath your teaching " if you could call it that" :confused: " bozos to bare foot trim kinda sounds like NB to me all over again natural bull....t which one is it patty caring about horses or sharpening knifes for butchers

jack-mac

12-11-2006, 06:50 PM

awww, didn't get popcorn in time.... :D

Keep in mind this is the guy that said shoeing is "just slapping on some steel"hey two heads did you enjoy your trip to china complements of that horses hoof :D

calshoer

12-11-2006, 07:05 PM

gee jacmac ....It sounds like you just have your shorts all in a bunch just because a farrier (who shoes horses for a living everyday just like you do) also teaches barefoot trimming for those horses owners who happen to have barefoot horses.....
it must be just too much of a stretch for you to think someone has enough brains to actually find the middle of an issue, trying to sort out the common good on BOTH sides while throwing out the bad on BOTH sides. Patty

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-11-2006, 07:13 PM

calshoer in gray

I really don't give a hoot about the CJF certification for barefoot, because it is promarily a forging skill leveland who ned to forge for barefoot?
and ...Besides , the AFA shoeing guidelines for the testing applies incorrect biomechanics to the hoof anyway, and that is why so many people are going to barefoot in the first place.

LMAO! Careful, somebody might think your inability to pass the test because you lack the necessary skills might have elicited some sour gräpes.

Plenty of those people HAD CJF or equal level farriers prior to giving up on shoes in frustration with lame horses that were not getting better.

Disabuse yourself of the silly notion that there is any test offered in the United States that is the equal of the AFA's Journeyman test in terms of difficulty and objectivity. One tires of your mindless denigration of a test you haven't demonstrated the ability to pass and tireless advocacy of a system based on a demonstrably flawed model.

Its the very shoeing principles that guide the AFA testing protocols and the CJF level that care CAUSING the exodus to barefoot.

I'm fairly observant and I look down before I look up. Lately, I hang around race tracks, rodeos, cuttings, and cow camps, but I haven't seen any exodus to the barefoot camp by folks with performance horses. Similarly, to my knowledge, the hunter/jumper and dressage folks don't seem to be deserting the flag for the BUA en masse. When I venture off to an equine clinic, I see lots of abysmally poor shoeing, but none of it done by CJFs - or anyone else who can shoe a horse. In fact, the only folks I see joining the BUA are folks who have horses that don't really need shoeing and/or can't find a good farrier of any persuasion. Perhaps you have reference to the usual smattering of loudmouthed intellectual lemmings and starry-eyed neophytes who jump on every bandwagon that comes down the pike in the interest of being politically correct and/or trendy.

I cant see why anyone wanting to learn the science of the foot and trimming barefoot would need to know if their instructor was a CJF cause it doesnt even apply in that situation.

Personally, I have difficulty in understanding why anyone advocating a system based on the feral follies and junkscience would attempt to foist themselves off on an unsuspecting public as a farriery instructor, but I guess it takes all kinds. That said, one certainly need not be a CJF in order to teach farrery, but a student's seeking the services of someone who has earned the credential might certainly save them considerable trouble in separating the instructor wheat from the chaff. Anyone with a CJF has demonstrated the ability to pass several tests involving their knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology, their ability to shoe a horse to a standard with hand forged shoes within a time limit, the abilty to devise and fabricate shoes specific to a palthology, and the abilty to forge and fit a bar shoe within a time limit.

It's not a be all, end all, but it's a start.

calshoer

12-11-2006, 08:30 PM

LMAO! Careful, somebody might think your inability to pass the test because you lack the necessary skills might have elicited some sour gräpesI never TOOK the CJF test because I dont believe in the AFA protocols.I was getting into NB successfully by then and really couldnt bring bmuself to perimeter fit a shoe, even for a test. And when I took the CF test I was the ONLY ONE to pass the practical that day. And I got a 94 on the written, and only failed to get the certification because I was given an incomplete on the shoe board due to poor quality clips. (which are much better now thankyouverymuch) .Disabuse yourself of the silly notion that there is any test offered in the United States that is the equal of the AFA's Journeyman test in terms of difficulty and objectivity. One tires of your mindless denigration of a test you haven't demonstrated the ability to pass and tireless advocacy of a system based on a demonstrably flawed modelI really dont care to take a test that promotes flawed bimechanics. Thats a CHOICE not a lack of skill . Besides, this discussion is about the need for barefoot trim instructors to be CJF .So if you could please get back to that, it would put you on a slightly higher scale in terms of ability to stick to the sibject than jacmac. or else I wont play with you anymore. . In fact, the only folks I see joining the BUA are folks who have horses that don't really need shoeing and/or can't find a good farrier of any persuasion. Well Ive met in person too many barefoot proponenet horse owners especially on the east coast who had CJF fariers, were paying top dollars every six weeks and in the words of one of them"worried that the horse may not be able to walk out of the stall the day after it was shod every time, because it was always sore for at least a week" . 200 bucks for a shoeing and she couldn't ride the horse for two weeks every time after it was shod. And Ive personally shod horses that had been shod by CJFs working in vet clinics and which had been lame year after year with no improvement. When the shoeing was changed ,they went much sounder, some completely sound. And Im not the only one who has experienced that. Those horse's owners could have been easily sucked into the BUA crowd but fortunately barefoot wasnt all that big of a deal at that time , and they found a vet who understood the problem was all in foot balance ,and who knew that the previous shoeing had been the problem and that the right shoeing would help.
Here were CJF's costing those people thousands of dollars and not getting the job done because they clould forge beautiful shoes but didnt understand the damn foot. So don't tell me that it takes a CJF to teach barefoot trimming. It takes people who understand the biomechanics of the foot. Thats not to say there are not great CJf's out there ,or CJF's who wouldn't make great barefoot teachers, but the point is CJF doesnt mean ANYTHING when it comes to barefoot. So if you dont have anything better to counter that, don't resort to criticizing me personally. Thats the sign of someone who is lacking a good enough argument. Anyone with a CJF has demonstrated the ability to pass several tests involving their knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology, their ability to shoe a horse to a standard with hand forged shoes within a time limit, the abilty to devise and fabricate shoes specific to a palthology, and the abilty to forge and fit a bar shoe within a time limit.

It's not a be all, end all, but it's a start.Its a start only if the CJF's were being given up to date ,correct information on how that anatomy WORKS. But so far too many are not. So right now its not a start. It needs to change. The CJF certification as it now stands means subscribing to a lot of incorrect tradition passed on from one CJF to the next. In my opinion its time that the whole industry moved forward faster in changing the way it looks at the equine foot. And I'm NOT knocking shoeing per se like the BUA does. . . I'm knocking the shoeing methodology that has been considered the standard for too long.
Paty

David Hayne

12-11-2006, 08:34 PM

Good Day .....When I studied for the AFA ...CF Written Exam....I did not need to use my forge or anvil...point I am making is that there is so much to learn and understand about the Farriery Trade that I challeged this exam because I know of know other......if there is please someone let me know.

As I understand it the AFA was formed by farriers, an their main purpose was ...educated farriers educating farriers....the reality of my studies was a personnal test for me to become hopefully better at what I do ....look after horses hooves ....if I don't know something or have a problem....reach out for help..since I know that the CF or CJF have studied one time in their life, these are the people whom I can trust for positive advise.

I learn so much from this Farriers Forum and when ever I see those CF or CJF I personnal read their replies a little bit slower.....kinda interesting when I think about it...they will respone to the questions for " FREE " but where oh where are the teachers of the Barefoot Only Sites....have anyone of these people who can take a couple of hundred dollars for a two day clinic ever come on board and defended their teaching postion in Hoof Care ...I for one would love to read their thoughts.

If your an advocate of Barefoot Only then THINK about it for a moment...Why do they not come hear to help or ask questions....just imagine what we all could learn...our horses would benefiet greatly with everyones thoughts.

As I sat in on a CJF Myron Mclane Clinic just last month he spoke of a poster he had seen of the Great Golf Pro Tiger Woods....underneath were the words..." There comes a time when exceution becomes more important than theory "

I thought about that... many people can talk the talk but it is me that has to answer to my own work and skill level........if anyone is not familar with the AFA exams just pick up a copy of " AFA Certification Study Guide..Journeyman " by John Blombach, CJF...it truly woke me up to how little I really knew about Farriery...Study that and pass the test and then you will understand why I Respect a CJF.

The Study Guide was " my personnal wake up call ", in not what I should know in order to pass a test but what I should know in order to trim or shoe a Horse.

have a great day...David

Phil Armitage

12-11-2006, 09:13 PM

I remember here in Maine over 20 years ago most horses were barefoot every winter, even at the big barns. When I first started as a farrier most of my work was trimming year round. Now most of the horses I do are shod and shod year round. Not as many owners and barns want to go barefoot like the ole days. I even have a hard time talking folks into at least let there horse go barefoot behind. Last winter most of the horses I did were only shod up front with P13 studs and snow rim pads barefoot behind. This year I started to do the same and was asked to put the hind shoes back on. I do not see this barefoot movement catching on. The only place I see any talk of it is here on the internet.

Has any of the other farriers here noticed that is seems like a barefoot trimmer is qaulified in a very short period of time and also and advertised as better than a farrier? Then us as farriers will say a farrier with less than 10 years say only 6-7 years experience, school, apprenticed, working on certification and attending clinics every year still a rookie?

Appears to me the farrier trade has much higher standards and expectations than trimmers do.

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-11-2006, 09:56 PM

calshoer in gray, deletia

I never TOOK the CJF test because I dont believe in the AFA protocols.I was getting into NB successfully by then and really couldnt bring bmuself to perimeter fit a shoe, even for a test. And when I took the CF test I was the ONLY ONE to pass the practical that day. And I got a 94 on the written, and only failed to get the certification because I was given an incomplete on the shoe board due to poor quality clips. (which are much better now thankyouverymuch) .

Your inability to pass the AFA's basic test evidently caused you to seek an easier path and rendered you ineligible to take the Journeyman Test. No big deal, but your incessant sniping at folks who've passed a test you can't take implies envy, not choice.

I really dont care to take a test that promotes flawed bimechanics.

Oops! Nice try at damage control, but the test does not promote "flawed biomechanics", it consists of shoeing to a standard for testing purposes and objective quantification.

Thats a CHOICE not a lack of skill . Besides, this discussion is about the needfor barefoot trim instructors to be CJF .

When it's your turn to post, you can post whatever you will; when it's mine, I'll do the same - and right now my end of this discussion centers around your incessant denigration of folks who've demonstrated the ability to pass a test you're not even eligible to take.

So if you could please get back to that, it would put you on a slightly higher scale in terms of ability to stick to the sibject than jacmac.

Alas, I fear your "scales" are not something I spend a great time worrying about.

or else I wont play with you anymore.

You can quit anytime it pleases you to do so.

Well Ive met in person too many barefoot proponenet horse owners especially on the east coast who had CJF fariers, were paying top dollars every six weeks and in the words of one of them"worried that the horse nay not be aboe to walk out of the stall the day after it was shod every time, because it was always sore for at least a week" .

Sure you have. However, on careful examiniation, your war stories consist primarily of hearsay, not personal observation, so you really don't know whether they are true or not, you're merely parroting the mantra of your NB handlers: "NB good, all else bad".

200 bucks for a shoeing and she couldnt ride the horse for two weeks every time after it was shod.

LMAO! One wonders how your mythical CJF ever got under the horse a second time. Hereabouts, one is only as good as one's last shoeing.

And Ive personally shod horses that had been shod by CJFs working in vet clinics and which had been lame year after year with no improvement. When the shoeing was changed ,they went much sounder, some completely sound.

I've come behind folks of varying talents at vet clinics, some much more talented than I am, and hit a home run. No big deal, even a blind sow finds an acorn occasionally - but blind sows don't find acorns consistently. The salient point being that you and yours most assuredly do not, have not, and cannot, consistently improve the performance of anyone's horses who understands the relationship between equid anatomy and physical law.

And Im not the only one who has experienced that. Those horse's owners could have been easily sucked into the BUA crowd but fortunately barefoot wasnt all that big of a deal at that time , and they found a vet who understood the problem was all in foot balance ,and who knew that the previous shoeing had been the problem and that the right shoeing would help.

To hear you tell it, having a CJF by one's name is an indictment, not a credential. On the other hand, Texas has more horses than any other state, most of 'em are concentrated in urban areas, there are a helluva lot of good farriers and all are certainly not CJFs, but I've never heard an owner or trainer claim a CJF consistently left his horses unrideable as you claim is commonplace in your experience.

Here were CJF's costing those people thousands of dollars and not getting the job done because they clould forge beautiful shoes but didnt understand the damn foot.

Once again, you are attempting to present hearsay and apocryphal statements as a substitue for facts. Where are these legions?

So don't tell me that it takes a CJF to teach barefoot trimming.

I didn't. I simply pointed out that a CJF would be more likely than the average citizen claiming to have some knowledge of the relevant equid anatomy and physiology because the CJF has passed a test involving knowledge and motor skills over that stuff and the other hasn't.

It takes people who understand the biomechanics of the foot. Thats not to say there are not great CJfps out there ,or CJFls who wouldnt make great barefoot teachers, but the pouint is CJF doesnt mean ANYTHING when it comes to barefoot.

One does not become a CJF by wishing real hard, one first passes a fairly exhaustive test of one's knowlege of equid anatomy and physiology as well as a test of the motor skills involved in trimming a foot, things that strongly suggests any CJF might possibly know how to trim a foot. On the other hand, anyone's blind adherence to a demonstrably flawed model implies their inability to apply phyisical law to equid anatomy. Do you know anyone like that?

So if you dont have anythign better to counter that, dont resort to criticizing me personally. Thats the sign of someone who is lacking a good enough argument.

No ma'am, it's a sign that I tire of your incessant denigration of folks who've passed a test you haven't. For some, it's easy to criticize an accomplishment one has no hope of achieving, but the transparancy of such criticism is obvious.

Its a start only if the CJF's were being given up to date ,correct information on how that anatomy WORKS.

LMAO! Would that, perchance, be the demonstrably flawed NB model? Maybe Boker's press release "research"?

But so far too many are not. So right now its not a start. It needs to change. The CJF certification as it now stands means subscribing to a lot of incorrect tradition passed on from one CJF to the next.

The fact that the AFA's testing standard does not comply with the flawed NB model does not suggest the AFA's testing standard is in error, it's just a testing standard; on the other hand, trimming and shoeing is more the province of Archimedes, Newton, and the boys.

In my opinion its time that the whole industry moved forward faster in changing the way it looks at the equine foot. And I'm NOT knocking shoeing per se like the BUA does. . . I'm knocking the shoeing methodology that has been considered the standard for too long.

Personally, I knock any model that's not based on anatomy and physical law. As badly as it pains me to remind you of this fact, Archimedes still rules the roost.

jack-mac

12-11-2006, 09:57 PM

I never TOOK the CJF test because I dont believe in the AFA protocols.I was getting into NB successfully by then and really couldnt bring bmuself to perimeter fit a shoe, even for a test. And when I took the CF test I was the ONLY ONE to pass the practical that day. And I got a 94 on the written, and only failed to get the certification because I was given an incomplete on the shoe board due to poor quality clips. (which are much better now thankyouverymuch) .I really dont care to take a test that promotes flawed bimechanics. Thats a CHOICE not a lack of skill . Besides, this discussion is about the needfor barefoot trim instructors to be CJF .So if you could please get back to that, it would put you on a slightly higher scale in terms of ability to stick to the sibject than jacmac. or else I wont play with you anymore. . Well Ive met in person too many barefoot proponenet horse owners especially on the east coast who had CJF fariers, were paying top dollars every six weeks and in the words of one of them"worried that the horse nay not be aboe to walk out of the stall the day after it was shod every time, because it was always sore for at least a week" . 200 bucks for a shoeing and she couldnt ride the horse for two weeks every time after it was shod. And Ive personally shod horses that had been shod by CJFs working in vet clinics and which had been lame year after year with no improvement. When the shoeing was changed ,they went much sounder, some completely sound. And Im not the only one who has experienced that. Those horse's owners could have been easily sucked into the BUA crowd but fortunately barefoot wasnt all that big of a deal at that time , and they found a vet who understood the problem was all in foot balance ,and who knew that the previous shoeing had been the problem and that the right shoeing would help.
Here were CJF's costing those people thousands of dollars and not getting the job done because they clould forge beautiful shoes but didnt understand the damn foot. So don't tell me that it takes a CJF to teach barefoot trimming. It takes people who understand the biomechanics of the foot. Thats not to say there are not great CJfps out there ,or CJFls who wouldnt make great barefoot teachers, but the pouint is CJF doesnt mean ANYTHING when it comes to barefoot. So if you dont have anythign better to counter that, dont resort to criticizing me personally. Thats the sign of someone who is lacking a good enough argument. Its a start only if the CJF's were being given up to date ,correct information on how that anatomy WORKS. But so far too many are not. So right now its not a start. It needs to change. The CJF certification as it now stands means subscribing to a lot of incorrect tradition passed on from one CJF to the next. In my opinion its time that the whole industry moved forward faster in changing the way it looks at the equine foot. And I'm NOT knocking shoeing per se like the BUA does. . . I'm knocking the shoeing methodology that has been considered the standard for too long.
Patywell i hope it not your methodology girlfriend for the horses sake i wouldn't give you a job shoeing fly off a manure pile :rolleyes:

ranchoblanco

12-11-2006, 10:17 PM

Had to see for myself what state has the most horses.....Texas is number 1, California 2....anyway here are some interesting statistics if anyones interested.

Mike

http://www.manesandtailsorganization.org/AHC_Report_2005/American_Horse_Council_2005_Report.htm

Gary Hill

12-11-2006, 10:48 PM

Unfortunately Texas also has alot of older horses that may be even worse off than before due to the "Bunny Huggers" wanting to close the killer plants. It is sad that so many horses will starve due to these people that think they know what is best for old and crippled horses. I feel the AQHA and all the breed assn's have dropped the ball in dealing with this growing problem! I don't mean to jump off topic- I was just popping more corn for the SHOW. :D

EileenHughes

12-11-2006, 11:52 PM

I have to agree Gary...if we had a plant locally in every state alot of horse would come to their end quickly and without the stress of shipping.

I LOVE horses, but they are still livestock. They would be better off killed locally than be put through the stress of auction and shipment.

We just had a calf slaughtered that was happy 'til the end save the day he was castrated. A real pet until doomsday ....he had a good life and he knew it.

Forgewizard

12-11-2006, 11:54 PM

Ranchoblanco,

Just curious those numbers making Texas the number one state per head of horses....

does that include the numbers of horses shipped there for slaughter?

Probably not, but possible, eh?

Hey, Florida is third in that head count no wonder I've been so busy!!

Before the thread heads down that AFA certification fight (and believe me I've been in that one too) these post just bring up a pertinent point to my original post.... Knowledge of actual anatomy ought to be necessary to present an idea.

Patty, that's what I meant when I said:

But if you are going to present something that opposes a particular method, then present the opposition correctly; don't be so blatantly derrogatory.
That statement was NOT directed towards you, it as directed toward's P.R.'s posted pix.

Pete Ramey's photos posted regarding sole depth were NOT indicative of correct anatomy, nor were they indicative of actual trims. He claims he sees those aberrations every day - geez he must see an awfully lot of bloody footed horses! Going with the adage that "a picture is worth a thousand words" when he posts pictures like that he IS being blatantly disrespectful of farriers!

I'm still reading his self hero worship site.

I'll be replacing my digital camera soon (the one that donkey trompled this summer) today's hooves would have been great for just this discussion.

A brief synopsis:

Been trimming this horse since '97 Arab gelding. Used for ring work, lessons and short hacks on mostly grass pastureland and some dirt road work. Nothing strenuous at all. Hooves well constructed. Done every 6 weeks. Owner reported since switching to a new supplement she's noticed better hoof growth. ME Too! I LIKE good growth! Horse has always had decent growth and gets about 5/16 to 3/8 inch trmmed off each time, depending on how much he gets ridden.

He as good depth of sole, great frogs and nice thick walls. Today his hooves presented with quite a lot of sole and wall depth. The sole had a thick ridge around the frog. Bars had grown forward a bit, frog was shaggy and flattened over the commisseurs.Wall edges were still well beveled and hadn't any chips or splits.

As I looked at the hoof I couldn't help but think how a barefoot trimmer of Pete's teachings would say, "There is nothing to take from this hoof." and they'd leave it alone. They'd marvel at the thick dense sole, and so called sole callous, and how the grunge packed into the frog cavities was so nicely helping to support this hoof.

BUt the owner commented how the horse had tripped several times and twice the trip pitched her over his head.

Now I know this tripping could be rider error related, or tack fit and all sorts of other things, but her observations were that she felt his feet had become "clunky" and they'd grown longer than he was used to working with.

So as I trimmed the excess wall, bars, sole and frogs and rebeveled his walls I looked at the finished hoof and observed that he still had plenty of solar thickness, more correctly positioned brs and buttresses, easier breakover at the toe and no more ridge surrounding his frog. The frog cavities were now cleaned out to allow the dirt clods to drop out and the seat of corn had definition.

Simple trimming in my mind - nothing spectacular - something I've done for this horse for years since I started with him. He certainly wasn't bleeding nor could I feel his pulse through his soles, his heel depth was still good and his line of concussion was in its proper supportive place.

So this leads me back to some of P.R.'s comments on his site about leaving all this growth alone.

Just because the excess hoof is there doesn't mean it is benefitting the horse. The horse benefits from getting the hoof in proper alignment and in a supportive position.

HIs comments about it being WRONG for farriers to trim the hoof according to how it is while upon concrete has me stumped. He goes on to talk about the horse in motion and how he can show immediate imbalance as soon as the hoof is on a circle - so what? Does he really think we farriers don't know the horse moves and the hoof encounters extremes of impact and loading?

Just exactly HOW does HE trim a hoof while the horse is in motion?

The use of concrete as a tool in trimming a hoof is to have a clean level surface to evaluate the work. It also lets the farrier evaluate the limb while it is loaded at least during the stance phase. The stance is a phase encountered in ALL movements of the horse. The stance phase is one wherein the hoof is under quite a bit of loading, so at least while on concrete the farrier can see how the joints, bones and hooves align.

I guarantee that no matter HOW good Ramey thinks he can trim in the dirt - he can do a much better job with the horse on concrete!

I for one would LOVE to see this wonderous trimmer work while the horse is in motion!

calshoer

12-12-2006, 08:30 AM

Just exactly HOW does HE trim a hoof while the horse is in motion?

The use of concrete as a tool in trimming a hoof is to have a clean level surface to evaluate the work. It also lets the farrier evaluate the limb while it is loaded at least during the stance phase. The stance is a phase encountered in ALL movements of the horse. I understand quite clearly why he says the concrete evauation is the incorect place to evaluate the foot . It is because evaluating on concrete for medial lateral balance is oart of the old XYZ theory, or the T-square theory and using either (I was taught both originally) can cause the farrier to create medial lateral imbalance and consequent coffin joint pain or collateral ligament pain in the limbs that are not built on the Tsruare. And that is a large number of limbs. its one of the reasons I have been able to follow behond some of those CJF jobs I was telling you about anf fix long standing lameness that they couldnt fix. it was al about finding balance in another way besides the Tsquare. It was following the foot instead of a guage. The practice of standing the horse on concrete and eyeballing the feet for medial -lateral balance is one of the things in the industry that it is time to get rid of. The stance phase is one wherein the hoof is under quite a bit of loading, so at least while on concrete the farrier can see how the joints, bones and hooves align. For H/P alignment only, and only for that IF the farrier can regognize any dorsal wall distortion and what it means to that foot , but farriers are sadly misled to think they can evaluate for medial lateral balance by observing the limb in stance from the front.(or hanging it with the Tsquare) I guarantee that no matter HOW good Ramey thinks he can trim in the dirt - he can do a much better job with the horse on concrete!Though it is certainly nicer to trim on concrete simply for the cleanliness of it and for evaluating flares, and so your hoofstand doesnt rock all over the place, I can pretty much guarantee he or any other trimmer who follows the sole plane for balance can balance a foot medial laterally just fine in any surface ,since the true balance is found from the sole of the foot not from looking at the foot/limb from the front. I understood him perfectly when he talked about using concrete for evaluation.

calshoer

12-12-2006, 08:48 AM

and right now my end of this discussion centers around your incessant denigration of folks who've demonstrated the ability to pass a test you're not even eligible to take.I'm not denigrating the forging skill that it takes to be a CJF. Im questioning the NEED for that skill in teaching barefoot trimming .Why would you need forging skills to trim a horse? And Im criticising the fact that too many CJFs lack the *current* scientific knowledge to actually shoe a horse in a biomechanically correct manner.
Its not THEM thats the problem, its the *information* offered to them in as the go through the system thats the problem.
I won't support a system that is still teaching and promoting perimeter fit , and T-square balance.
Its the *system* of promoting incorrect information I want to see changed, not the skills of the farriers. Of course farriers need to be highly skilled. This is about teaching the barefoot aspect of hoofcare, not the shoeing aspect. And there will always be some horses barefoot. So just because I happen to promote barefoot as well as shoeing, and want only GOOD safe barefoot taught to owners instead of some of the **** thats out there, Im now some kind of incompetent? geesh.

tbloomer

12-12-2006, 09:02 AM

Its a start only if the CJF's were being given up to date ,correct information on how that anatomy WORKS. But so far too many are not. So right now its not a start.The CJF written exams do not evaluate knowledge of "how the anatomy works." They evaluate the names and locations and functions of individual anatomic structures.

It needs to change. The CJF certification as it now stands means subscribing to a lot of incorrect tradition passed on from one CJF to the next.Passing the exams demonstrates that one has the skill to hit an arbitrary predefined target. The target is difficult to hit and ALL those who have done so had to work at it. Anyone who believes that such an arbitrary target is the only way to shoe horses is not thinking for themselves.

In my opinion its time that the whole industry moved forward faster in changing the way it looks at the equine foot.I agree with this statement. The industry needs to look at the equine foot through the prism of the laws of physics instead of the prisim of dogma and political correctness.

And I'm NOT knocking shoeing per se like the BUA does. . . I'm knocking the shoeing methodology that has been considered the standard for too long.
PatyThere may be a few folks what have passed the test who falsely believe that the arbitrary testing standard is a methodology. However, the AFA does not have a functional methodology for anything except certification testing. Therefore anyone who criticizes the certification test as a shoeing methodology is holding the same false belief. The ABSENCE of any official information from the AFA which promotes the certification standard as a methodology is obviously not sufficient evidence for the critics or the proponents what hold the false belief.

tbloomer

12-12-2006, 09:40 AM

The practice of standing the horse on concrete and eyeballing the feet for medial -lateral balance is one of the things in the industry that it is time to get rid of.Should we put them in the dirt to evaluate coronary band displacement?

For H/P alignment only, and only for that IF the farrier can regognize any dorsal wall distortion and what it means to that footWhat about solar distortion when there is NO distortion in the dorsal wall? How does one follow the live sole plane to achieve balance when the sole plane itself is distorted due to a combination of environmental factors, husbandry, confirmation and use?

I can pretty much guarantee he or any other trimmer who follows the sole plane for balance can balance a foot medial laterally just fine in any surface ,since the true balance is found from the sole of the foot . . . Maybe in your climate/terrain but not in mine. If anything it is the opposite. I find evidence of distortion in the sole as often as I do in the wall. Although I have repeatedly demonstrated in radiographs the ability to achieve M/L ground paralell P3 and equal joint spacing, I'll be danged if I got there by following the sole plane or any other "one size fits all" methodology. Unfortunately, I cannot define a specific protocol for how I achieve M/L balance because I don't do it the same way on every hoof. I've never used a T-square or sighted the coronary band for ground paralell. I also do not use equal distance from frog apex to heel buttress. Nor do I try to achieve simultaneous M/L heel strike. Yet, I do take all of those methodologies into consideration when I look at a horse. Since all of them work on some horses some of the time . . . The only methodology that works for me ALL of the time is the "it depends methodology."

tbloomer

12-12-2006, 10:17 AM

well i hope it not your methodology girlfriend for the horses sake i wouldn't give you a job shoeing fly off a manure pile :rolleyes:In spite of her appearant dogmatic adherance to NB principles, I would allow Patty to shoe my horses without any reservations whatsoever. Same goes for just about any tenured professional who comes to this forum.

Although we may argue theory, it is successful practice which ultimately proves our ability. Therefore I respect and hold Patty in high regard as a profesional farrier even if I argue with her about theory. I think that you may find that plenty of others on this forum feel the same way.

Not many boxers care for a sparring partner who runs away from or walks into a punch. Patty has caused more blood to spill on the mats of horseshoes.com than she has spilled herself. My advice is to approach her with your chin tucked, your hands up, and expect to get stung a little. It's good for the soul.;)

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:20 AM

Should we put them in the dirt to evaluate coronary band displacement?Of course if you *want* to evaluate that to try to use it tofind internal MLbalance, then , concrete would be better, but the whole point that pete is making is that since the SOLE is the better guide for medial lateral balance , you dont need conctrete. And I agree. I dont use the coronary nabnd displacement to find balance. I use the sole and it has proven to be the most acurate for me and the most effective. What about solar distortion when there is NO distortion in the dorsal wall? How does one follow the live sole plane to achieve balance when the sole plane itself is distorted due to a combination of environmental factors, husbandry, confirmation and use? I still trust the live sole, and it works. I've personally gotten too many before and after hoof balance Xrays on my lame cases that were think otherwise.
Mike Savoldis studies on thousands of hooves from differing environments and conformations has shown that the live (functional) sole remains a consistantantly even, balanced ,thickness from side to side under P3 and is a reliable guide. If you see what you think is distortion then you should Xray it you'll find that P3 or P1 is also usually distorted and the sole will still show you correct ML balance to get even joint spaces.
As well, Gene Ovnicek (and other NB farriers who know how to find live sole accurately without invading it) have gotten so many ML Xrays on feet over the years thatlive sole plane has proven to be very consistant.
The only exceptions to the ML live sole plane thickness I have ever found were rare and on either founders who had sunk unevenly, or maybe badly injured horses (like fractured knees) where the limb had severe crookedness, and the sole or the sole corium hadn't had enough time to modify to even up the load. And on those, the sole (or the corium according to Mike Savoldi) ) eventually modiofies to where it needs to be so trimming to the live sole still places the horse in his comfort zone. .Maybe in your climate/terrain but not in mine. If anything it is the opposite. Environment has nothing to do with growing even thickness of live sole medial laterally. I've seen following the sole plane work consistantly in so many diferent environments. I've been all over the US teaching NB with Gene and Remember when first learned NB protocol I had been shopeing in the SF By area for ten years, where the environment is completely different from here in in Colorado . And did NB there for seven years before moving here.
And there's Mark Plumlee teaching NB in super wet Washington state at Mission Farrier School who can confirm the same thing as to sole plane reliability, and Merlin Anderson in Montana at Cowtown School. Totally diferent environments.
As well as all the vets I've worked with who have radiographed the lame cases I've worked on and confirmed that trimming to the live sole even in distorted feet balances the joint spaces M L with extremely rare and serious pathological exceptions. I find evidence of distortion in the sole as often as I do in the wall.I'd like to see those, and I could probably exlain how what you define as medial lateral sole distortion is really not. (Im keeping this to M-L because that is what the original statement from Pete was really all about and there IS other types of sole distortion like toe stretching which is completely different ) Although I have repeatedly demonstrated in radiographs the ability to achieve M/L ground paralell P3 and equal joint spacing, I'll be danged if I got there by following the sole plane or any other "one size fits all" methodology. Then you probably have a reall good instinctive eye and Ill bet that even though you're not folowing the sole plane, you end up there anyway.
But the point of this discussion is that the sole plane IS a reliable guide and for most learning fariers it works consistantly and is a reliable way that takes the subjectivity of "eyeing it " on the floor out of the picture. Its safer, easier and proven to work. As long as the practitioner knows HOW to accurately exfoliate the dead sole and retain all the live so he/she does not alter it.

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:21 AM

Rick Burten

12-12-2006, 10:41 AM

Its a start only if the CJF's were being given up to date ,correct information on how that anatomy WORKS.
Who says they aren't? And, it is in***bent on the individual, CJF, RMF, FBI, CIA, MBA, MSW, MD, DVM, CPA, whatever, to seek out the information and employ it. As someone once opined, : "You can lead a man/woman to knowledge but you can't make 'em think....."
But so far too many are not.
Sure they are. What they do with the information is an entirely different matter.
The CJF certification as it now stands means subscribing to a lot of incorrect tradition passed on from one CJF to the next.
Spoken like a true zealot. Careful, I can remember a time in the not so distant past when certain evangelics of the BUA were pilloried for the same sort of rhetoric.
In my opinion its time that the whole industry moved forward faster in changing the way it looks at the equine foot.
Demonstrably. this is occuring and as an evolutionary process, will continue to occur.
And I'm NOT knocking shoeing per se like the BUA does. . .
No, you're just knocking shoeing that doesn't fit your mold.
I'm knocking the shoeing methodology that has been considered the standard for too long.
Paty
You mean the methodology that has given us rolled toes, rocker toes, square toes, blunt toes,set back toes, breakover, heel support, expansion, flare reduction, hoof-pastern alignment, etc ad infinatum?

Now, if you want to have a discussion on the corruption and bastardization of that encompassing methodology, then that is a different matter.

And lets be truely specific when we talk about what chaps the sensitive tissues of the detractors of the AFA practical exams. And its not 'perimeter fit' per se. it is how a shoe is fit from toe quarter to toe quarter.

Interestingly enough, nowhere in the Certification Study Guide that I have, is there any mention of the term 'perimeter fit'. All I find are guidelines for acheiving what most anyone would agree is a good hoof form and then aopplying the shoe to that form. Regardless, if you can fit a rocker toed or square toed or any other kind of set back toed shoe, then you certainly, for the certification, should be able to fit a shoe in the manner the standards appear to call for. Or perhaps you're(the collective) one of those who likes to pull a bent piece of steel with holes in it, out of a box and then nail it down. Which, while it might be ironhanging, sure ain't farriery.

YMMV

Rick

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:45 AM

The CJF written exams do not evaluate knowledge of "how the anatomy works." They evaluate the names and locations and functions of individual anatomic structuresWhat good is memorizing the names of the internal sturctures and where they connect without understanding how thay all interact and function? Understanding the function of everything is the basis for preventing an treating lameness. For example how would a change in hoof balance or the breakover point stress or ease stress on specific structures? Or understanding how if one structure (like the frog) is supported or not supported it directly affects another structure? or understanding how a toe first landing vs a heel first landing affects the coffin joint the impar ligament and the navicular bone? Or how the medial lateral balance and medial lateral breakover directly affects the coffin joint and collateral ligaments. This is all science that SHOULD be included in ALL farrier's instruction (it is in my class) especially at the journeyman level but is often not.
This is where the public (and farrier students) is misled thinking that all CJF's know enough all about preventing and treating lameness just because they can rattle off anatomy parts . Only those who continue on with the scientific portion of their education after they get that CJf after their name understand this stuff far too many stop right there or only go on for more forging skills and contests. But they've got that golden CJF title after their name by golly. Passing the exams demonstrates that one has the skill to hit an arbitrary predefined target. The target is difficult to hit and ALL those who have done so had to work at it. Anyone who believes that such an arbitrary target is the only way to shoe horses is not thinking for themselves. Yes it IS difficult to hit .But it hits something that is not correct biomechanically. Why not hit something that is not arbritrary but rather an exacting test of his knowledge of the internal foot anatomy and outer morphology, and be anatomically and functionally exacting? Like have the applicant point out without Xrays where the tip of P3 is inside the foot, and place his BO of his handmade shoe exactly 1/4" in front of that. And achieve H-P alignment internally . Then take a lateral Xray of the finished foot to see if he hit the mark? THAT is even more difficult to do, and MORE exacting, andshoes t hat the aplicant understands and can corectly shoe the individual foot. I would actually support the CJF test, if they did it that way.

tbloomer

12-12-2006, 11:44 AM

. . . there IS other types of sole distortion like toe stretching which is completely different ) Sole following the toe flare. I see this often. Just as often I see sole following the flares in the quarters, thus the part of the sole plane that I "read" is the area closest to the bridge (center of articulation, termination of bars, whatever). So it is the center of the live sole plane at the bridge and not the extremity at the widest part of the foot, from which my eye reads the hoof. Often I see what Gene describes as sole callous on the medial side and exfoliating sole curving proximally and laterally following the flare in the lateral quarer. Thus I do not rely on the extremities of the sole at the widest part of the foot.

Then you probably have a reall good instinctive eye and Ill bet that even though you're not folowing the sole plane, you end up there anyway.Yes I'm cursed with a natural artistic talent inherited from my mother. When I end up "there" is is usually after I have grown a new foot on the horse and established a new base of support. So for me the NB protocol fits well with horses what I have been maintaining on a regular schedule for months or years. However, it is not where I begin when I encounter a tramautized hoof capsule - more like a destination that I reach over time.

But the point of this discussion is that the sole plane IS a reliable guide and for most learning fariers it works consistantly and is a reliable way that takes the subjectivity of "eyeing it " on the floor out of the picture. Its safer, easier and proven to work. As long as the practitioner knows HOW to accurately exfoliate the dead sole and retain all the live so he/she does not alter it.This assumes that all of the live sole that is supposed to be there is still there before taking a knife to it. What you're talking about is learning to interpret the texture of the sole and then using the interpretation of that texture to establish a plane. When I first started trimming my own horse's feet I used the NB tutorial as my guide. It worked great on my horses because they had well maintained feet. However, the more horses I got under and the more I learned about the process of remodeling the more I began to recognize where things are on the inside based on what I saw on the outside.

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 03:01 PM

In spite of her appearant dogmatic adherance to NB principles, I would allow Patty to shoe my horses without any reservations whatsoever. Same goes for just about any tenured professional who comes to this forum.

Although we may argue theory, it is successful practice which ultimately proves our ability. Therefore I respect and hold Patty in high regard as a profesional farrier even if I argue with her about theory. I think that you may find that plenty of others on this forum feel the same way.

Not many boxers care for a sparring partner who runs away from or walks into a punch. Patty has caused more blood to spill on the mats of horseshoes.com than she has spilled herself. My advice is to approach her with your chin tucked, your hands up, and expect to get stung a little. It's good for the soul.;)well I'm happy for you tom you must have a low regard for your horses i wouldn't let her near any of mine as far as I'm concerned any one that practices NB hasn't a clue on biomacanics or how the hoof functions & shouldn't be teaching such piffle thank christ they gave it the *** hear in oz with grate result

smitty88

12-12-2006, 03:05 PM

Jack why dont you just give it a miss

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 03:20 PM

Jack why dont you just give it a missok i will let go of it :)

smitty88

12-12-2006, 03:31 PM

it will be only a matter of time before you get you marching papers
Jack

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 03:43 PM

it will be only a matter of time before you get you marching papers
JackI know kinda gather that I'm not Mr popularity

Rancho JD

12-12-2006, 05:22 PM

=calshoer What good is memorizing the names of the internal sturctures and where they connect without understanding how thay all interact and function? Understanding the function of everything is the basis for preventing an treating lameness.a university equine science professor starts a lecture and says: today we are going to study...Three-dimensional description of ligamentous attachments around the sesamoid bones. professor starts with a chart or model pointing out each ligament and names according to location and attachment then drones on for an hour about form and function and concludes the lecture by saying...remember this, it will be on the test! most of the students cram before the test just to remember the ligaments and areas of attachment, thats the easy part, the meat of the lecture is distant and hazy. a very few of these students recall and retain the names and nomenclature better because they concentrated and visualized with effort and genuine interest during the lecture and possible evenly pondered it walking down the halls, sitting in the cafeteria looking absent minded but quite the contrary. these few students cruise through the test with A's because they are very smart and or did much more than memorize, they visualized, with interest. that test was not written for them, it was written for the average or better student.

Could you imagine how lengthy and how few farriers would pass a CJF test if they had to display knowledge of function comparable to a professor, a PHD. is this neccesary to be a competent journeyman, one who can travel.

calshoer

12-12-2006, 05:45 PM

Could you imagine how lengthy and how few farriers would pass a CJF test if they had to display knowledge of function comparable to a professor, a PHD. If they don't have to understand all that function to be a CJF , then perhaps the definition of what constituts a CJF is misleading to the public. MY beginning students got a lot of function on their tests, its not THAT hard and most of them understood it. I expect them to be able to tell me for example which part of which collateral ligament is stretched in a right hand turn . Or if you raise the hoof angle beyond normal alignment what happens to each of the major tendons and ligaments? If they dont understand that stuff, they shouldn't be shoeing horses . And these are beginners.
is this neccesary to be a competent journeyman, one who can travel.Absolutely. Otherwise the CJF title is nothing more than a blacksmithing skill certification.So what isf the test is lengthy? or hard? Should we keep the standards of the scientific part of shoeing so low just so more can pass?

tbloomer

12-12-2006, 05:58 PM

. . . thank christ they gave it the *** hear in oz with grate resultPerhaps "they" (whomever they are) what gave NB the *** were attempting to keep it from competing with Cytek??? http://www.cytekhorse.com.au . . . biggest joke to ever come out of OZ, but be careful Jack, you're working on my funny bone mate!

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-12-2006, 07:05 PM

calshoer in gray

If they don't have to understand all that function to be a CJF , then perhaps the definition of what constituts a CJF is misleading to the public.

With similar logic, I might point out that if my aunt were differently endowed, she'd be my uncle. One realizes you are utterly and completely ignorant of the content of the AFA's Journeyman Test, but the one I took was a fairly exhaustive exam that covered anatomy, physiology, and biophysics - equid anatomy and dead Greeks. (Had you been eligible to stand for the test and had the necessary fortitude to take it, you would know that - but, I digress.) Speaking of "misleading the public", that would be more akin to attempting to extrapolate data from the observation of feral feet in an arid enviornment to domestic horses in varied environments, then proclaiming the feral model is valid for domestic horses in use because it's "natural." In reality, one model does not fit all and the relationship between the feral foot and the foot of horses in myriad uses and varied enviornments is casual at best.

MY beginning students got a lot of function on their tests, its not THAT hard and most of them understood it. I expect them to be able to tell me for example which part of which collateral ligament is stretched in a right hand turn . Or if you raise the hoof angle beyond normal alignment what happens to each of the major tendons and ligaments? If they dont understand that stuff, they shouldn't be shoeing horses . And these are beginners.

LMAO! Need I point out the incongruity of such a statement emanating from someone like yourself, who, on this very forum, once questioned the application of the physical laws governing levers to farriery? As I recall, you were kind enough to point out that Archimedes was dead as if his death meant his discoveries died with him and had no place in modern farriery.

Absolutely. Otherwise the CJF title is nothing more than a blacksmithing skill certification.So what isf the test is lengthy? or hard? Should we keep the standards of the scientific part of shoeing so low just so more can pass?

Your credibility suffers somewhat when you repeatedly attempt to denigrate the Journeyman test when you were unable to pass a lower level test. I've heard your litany of meaningless excuses and your self-serving attempts at damage control, but the fact remains: You failed the basic test and your attempts to defame AFA Journeymen reeks of sour gräpes.

As I see it, passing the AFA Journeyman Test merely indicates one is a serious student of farriery. I'm privileged to know quite a few Journeymen, and for every single one of them, self included, passing the Journeyman test was a starting place, not a stopping place. I doubt you'd understand the concept, but it's been the prevailing attitude among every Journeyman I've ever encountered.

I fear the green-eyed monster of jealousy has you firmly in its clutches and it ain't pretty - and your continued attempts to belittle AFA Journeyman are eloquent testimony of your envy.

cowboy_bc

12-12-2006, 07:07 PM

I know kinda gather that I'm not Mr popularity

Hi all,

May I suggest a new forum just for jack.

Farriers who won't come clean about themselves talking simplistic nonsense that makes folks laugh.

Kevin

Rancho JD

12-12-2006, 07:22 PM

If they don't have to understand all that function to be a CJF , then perhaps the definition of what constituts a CJF is misleading to the public. MY beginning students got a lot of function on their tests, its not THAT hard and most of them understood it. I expect them to be able to tell me for example which part of which collateral ligament is stretched in a right hand turn . Or if you raise the hoof angle beyond normal alignment what happens to each of the major tendons and ligaments? If they dont understand that stuff, they shouldn't be shoeing horses . And these are beginners.
Absolutely. Otherwise the CJF title is nothing more than a blacksmithing skill certification.So what isf the test is lengthy? or hard? Should we keep the standards of the scientific part of shoeing so low just so more can pass?
i dont know that the testing standards of the scientific part of the shoeing test ARE so low. every CJF i have talked to settin on a bail or a barstool says the overall test is exhausting, even those good in the fire. i have never heard one say the test was gravy, to easy. you are the FIRST i have heard say the standards of the test are so low.

it reads disgruntled and pathetic.

while yours or anybody elses beginning farrier students eyes may light up when they grasp a topic, they may be far long from understanding, you know that. i sat attentively at 7am for an hour lecture 5 days a week for 18 months at WWCC 32 years ago and when i was cut loose it didnt take me long to realize i was green as a red blackberry.

not going to far out on a limb i dont think any beginning farrier student anywhere could pass the CJF written test let alone the practical. its a journey it takes alot of practice

what does the public think constitutes a journeyman? its rarely used by the general public anymore but it used to mean one who was skilled in a craft but not yet a master, capable of travelling but not opening his own shop. so a modern owner may see a farrier travel to their farm, exhibit skills and knowledge and may have a certificate to present just in case somebody's interested. the public is not being mislead here, nobody is being duped.

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 08:13 PM

Perhaps "they" (whomever they are) what gave NB the *** were attempting to keep it from competing with Cytek??? http://www.cytekhorse.com.au . . . biggest joke to ever come out of OZ, but be careful Jack, you're working on my funny bone mate!mate there will always be a few gullible horses owners but give it time there's nothing like a chronically lame horse to Jolt them back to reality lets see how there horses are in 2007 correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it a yank that brought cytek to oz?

Phil Armitage

12-12-2006, 08:16 PM

All this talk about anatomy and biomechanics. The bottom line is sole thickness. The AFA, Guild, NB, Pete Ramey and most natural trimming teach maintain the sole thickness. Thin soles = sore feet. Sore feet = poor movement and leads to secondary lameness. Sole pressure on sensitive structures hurts. It is no suprise to see a horse walk off sound after sole pressure is addressed be it by shoeing or trimming/use of boots.

Julie Plaster

12-12-2006, 08:17 PM

Phil Armitage

12-12-2006, 08:19 PM

Patty has the guts to make a choice. Just like the rest of us. I am grateful for each of you, differences and all. That is what makes us all so unique. Don't we just want to keep our horses as sound as we can?

My grandfather would usually say something like "a few kind words would be nice."

Julie :-)

It would be great if everyone could combine all this knowledge. Who knows we may all get along one day. Might be destructive to Baron's forum though. ;) People seem to really like a good fight.

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 08:22 PM

Hi all,

May I suggest a new forum just for jack.

Farriers who won't come clean about themselves talking simplistic nonsense that makes folks laugh.

Kevinfancy this coming from a bloke that welcomed me once ta ta ta PS there are some on the forum who know who i am so lets just leave it at that hey

Gary Hill

12-12-2006, 08:35 PM

Actually this forum is the only one on the web where it is laid out there and everyone gets an opinion that actually is learnable! I have tried to have discussions about feet, face to face with learned farriers that can't grash alot of what is discussed? Clinics also haven't had half of what is brought up here. The discussions and opinions presented here only back up what alot of us face daily. Unfortunately ,in my sandpile we are extremely limited with good equine vets that actually know a dang thing about feet! I don't work daily spouting big words to my clients. I have to ****down the language so they understand me. Not to say I'm real good with them big words anyhoo, so I have to let my work talk for me. I have learned that we all face the same problems from feet to clients and that makes me feel better that even tho I work alone , others go though the SOS with me daily! I may not agree with everything and every farrier, I do respect the fact that they present it in a way we can all learn and gain something from it!! JMO, Gary

calshoer

12-12-2006, 08:40 PM

i dont know that the testing standards of the scientific part of the shoeing test ARE so low. every CJF i have talked to settin on a bail or a barstool says the overall test is exhausting, even those good in the fire. I have never heard one say the test was gravy, to easy. You are the first I have heard say the standards of the test are so low. Oh for gosh sakes...I was responsing to YOUR comment. It was YOU who said the test would be 'too hard' if they had to know functionality of the anatomy! YOU said that.
A test at that level SHOULD be damn hard. If a CJF isnt tested on that subject then then they should be.... oh woo hoo....poor little babies if they can't handle it.
If it takes two days to test for that level then so be it.
Its that important if the AFA is going to sell CJF as the most qualified level to horse owners . Gosh, in the UK farriers even have to know ALL the blood vessels and nerves, too.
it reads disgruntled and pathetic. Not disgruntled. Disgusted. Disgusted that SOME (too many) CJFs can screw up as many horses as they do.
Its the fault of the system that gives them that title as much as the fault of the individuals. while yours or anybody elses beginning farrier students eyes may light up when they grasp a topic, they may be far long from understanding, you know that. Some can some cant. But only those who can should shoe horses. i sat attentively at 7am for an hour lecture 5 days a week for 18 months at WWCC 32 years ago and when i was cut loose it didnt take me long to realize i was green as a red blackberry.That's either your problem ,or a poor teacher, or probably because back then it was the same disjointed contradictory, unsound information that I got 25 years ago . I find that when the information makes more common sense and doesnt contradict itself all the time ,it is much easier to digestand remember .
what does the public think constitutes a journeyman? its rarely used by the general public anymore but it used to mean one who was skilled in a craft but not yet a master, capable of travelling but not opening his own shop. so a modern owner may see a farrier travel to their farm, exhibit skills and knowledge and may have a certificate to present just in case somebody's interested. the public is not being mislead here, nobody is being duped.The public I talk to think that a journeyman has lots of special training in treating lameness. And if you read a lot of other horse bulletin boards where the public discusses their horses lameness issues you would see that .And sadly with some journeymen, the owners have been sold a bill of goods when it comes to that farrier truly understanding the root of their horses lameness problems. I've personally seen far too much beautiful polished shoeing that completely misses the mark biomechanically. Show barns shod by CJF's and FULL of sore horses with unbalanced feet stabbing their toes every walking step. And nobody has a clue. Because THEIR farrier is a CJF so it just CAN'T be the shoeing thats the problem.

fairweatherforge

12-12-2006, 08:59 PM

The public I talk to think that a journeyman has lots of special training in treating lameness. And if you read a lot of other horse bulletin boards where the public discusses their horses lameness issues you would see that .And sadly with some journeymen, the owners have been sold a bill of goods when it comes to that farrier truly understanding the root of their horses lameness problems. I've personally seen far too much beautiful polished shoeing that completely misses the mark biomechanically. Show barns shod by CJF's and FULL of sore horses with unbalanced feet stabbing their toes every walking step. And nobody has a clue. Because THEIR farrier is a CJF so it just CAN'T be the shoeing thats the problem.[/QUOTE]

Did we forget about the the****utic endorsement? Or is that test no goot either.

fairweatherforge

12-12-2006, 09:16 PM

Patty- orange
Eric- blue

Or how the medial lateral balance and medial lateral breakover directly affects the coffin joint and collateral ligaments. This is all science that SHOULD be included in ALL farrier's instruction (it is in my class) especially at the journeyman level but is often not.

So what is NB doing about this? I just watched the videos and saw nothing about reducing the lever medially and laterally to take stress of the collateral ligaments. In fact Gene stated that the shoes rarely need much shapeing and that the shoes were already ground and ready to go on the foot.

calshoer

12-12-2006, 09:18 PM

Did we forget about the the****utic endorsement? Or is that test no goot either.No "we" didnt forget about it. The public for the most part doesnt even know about it because it is so new and there are so few farriers with that certification. Besides, we were not talking about that certification in this thread. Im TRYING to stick to the subject.
And since I dont know exactly what they DO put in that test , (besides hand forging fancier shoes ,I cant really discuss it .
So if there is actually deeper science of the foot involved in that test rather than just more forging, please enlighten me. :)
Patty

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 09:19 PM

patty its almost time to give it up girl or you will end up on jacks new upcoming forum called me myself & i only it will be changed to me myself & patty

calshoer

12-12-2006, 09:34 PM

So what is NB doing about this? I just watched the videos and saw nothing about reducing the lever medially and laterally to take stress of the collateral ligaments. In fact Gene stated that the shoes rarely need much shapeing and that the shoes were already ground and ready to go on the foot. You can't get everything into one video.
NB already effectively addresses the issue of ML breakover and its relation to the DIP joint and the collateral ligaments .
The NB shoes have always addressed it because of the roll designed into the sides as well as the toe of the shoe. (in case you havent noticed) .
And for more pathological cases, they have just come out with the newaluminum "performance breakover shoe", an aluminum "ringbone" full all around roller type of shoe. And the rails system of the original EDSS ,with the rails set well inside the edge of the shoe had that very thing in mind when they were designed.
If you get a chance to watch any of Genes live presentations, he discusses this area quite extensively, referencing several researchers including Denoix's work looking at the DIP joint movement and the colateral ligaments as well as some of the newer MRI studies.
He has some terrific in motion computer illustrations that are easy to follow.
It will probably be part of his presentation at the AFA convention , it's well worth seeing. And now he includes this stuff in some of the educational printed materials including some new wall posters.

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-12-2006, 09:49 PM

calshoer in gray, deletia

A test at that level SHOULD be damn hard. If a CJF isnt tested on that subject then then they should be.... oh woo hoo....poor little babies if they can't handle it.

Speaking of poor little babies, how'd you do on the AFA basic test? You know, the one you have to pass before you're eligible to take the Journeyman test. Wait, don't tell me! After you failed it, you had an NB epiphany and couldn't retake it in good consicence. Or, maybe the dog ate your homework - I forget.

If it takes two days to test for that level then so be it. Its that important if the AFA is going to sell CJF as the most qualified level to horse owners . Gosh, in the UK farriers even have to know ALL the blood vessels and nerves, too.

Since you mentioned the UK, it occurs to me that AFA Journeymen are eligible to shoe in the UK under the Farriers Registration Act. One can only wonder why - perhaps it's a conspiracy.

Not disgruntled. Disgusted. Disgusted that SOME (too many) CJFs can screw up as many horses as they do.

Where are all these horses that are "screwed up"? One realizes this forum has the word of someone unable to pass the test with an obvious agenda fueled by jealousy, but exactly were are these animals? It pains me to say this, but it appears your envy is eating you up.

Its the fault of the system that gives them that title as much as the fault of the individuals. Some can some cant. But only those who can should shoe horses.

In my experience, when it comes to performance horses, only the folks who can shoe horses are shoeing good horses - it doesn't take a CJF, it takes knowledge, talent, and dedication.

The public I talk to think that a journeyman has lots of special training in treating lameness. And if you read a lot of other horse bulletin boards where the public discusses their horses lameness issues you would see that .

Don't look now, but part of the Journeyman Test involves theräpeutic and palliative shoeing. Of course, it doesn't necessarily follow the flawed model of the NB feral foot, so it must be all wrong.

And sadly with some journeymen, the owners have been sold a bill of goods when it comes to that farrier truly understanding the root of their horses lameness problems.

Doubtless, some NB Lone Ranger like yourself will ride to the rescue and save all these poor horseys from the clutches of the evil Journeyman.

I've personally seen far too much beautiful polished shoeing that completely misses the mark biomechanically. Show barns shod by CJF's and FULL of sore horses with unbalanced feet stabbing their toes every walking step.

LMAO! It must be tough to be the only person in the world who thinks they can shoe a horse. In reality, lots of horses in varous disciplines are not going to follow the flawed NB model, but they are able to perform as best they can because they are shod to achieve and maintain maximum biomechanical efficiency, not to follow the dictates of some wannabe guru.

And nobody has a clue. Because THEIR farrier is a CJF so it just CAN'T be the shoeing thats the problem.

I've never met a CJF who thought he walked on water, but you appear to think you can. Should you encounter an odd moment of lucidity, you might ask yourself why you've allowed your jealousy to become so painfully obvious.

fairweatherforge

12-12-2006, 09:58 PM

First you said: This is all science that SHOULD be included in ALL farrier's instruction

Now you say: You can't get everything into one video.

Seeing that c/l tears are showing up on mri everywhere, its a pretty serious point he forgot to add to his video. Actually, I have four dvd plus a book that doesn't mention it. Although I probably wouldn't have understood it anyway. I mean I only passed some meaningless cjf test. Which was after my cf test. Which did include a shoe display which I passed. All according to you are useless.

Rancho JD

12-12-2006, 09:59 PM

It was YOU who said the test would be 'too hard' if they had to know functionality of the anatomy! YOU said that.not quite. the entire intent of of post #115 is practical in story form, not complaining nor angry. sorry you missed it. its meant to say...should a journeymen farrier have comparable functional anatomical knowledge as somebody who spends the majority of life in books and classroom studying and disecting. a professor, postgrads even undergrads or the rare mega-savant who retains everything. farriers at some point have to trim and shoe more than a few horses in a day if they have pressing financial obligations and the desire to retire with a respectable portfolio. the title of journeymen does not suggest doctor, master, egghead or even know it all.

That's either your problem ,or a poor teacher, or probably because back then it was the same disjointed contradictory, unsound information that I got 25 years ago.what an imagination a thoughtfull and conclusive diagnosis of a strangers educational experience. the term "green as a red blackberry" means nothing more than imature and inexperienced. its not a problem, it has nothing to do with poor educators, or the material they present. i recall most of it now and pick through it but at the time it seemed an overload of theory with out enough time for a student to practice.

Rick Burten

12-12-2006, 10:02 PM

May I suggest a new forum just for jack.
Kevin
We could call it the J*** Off forum.
:p :D

Rick

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:35 PM

Speaking of poor little babies, how'd you do on the AFA basic test? You know, the one you have to pass before you're eligible to take the Journeyman test. Wait, don't tell me! After you failed it, you had an NB epiphany and couldn't retake it in good consicence. Or, maybe the dog ate your homework - I forget.You already know how I did on it, its been brought up here before several times but apparently you have alzheimers and forgot already. :rolleyes: I got a 94 on the written, and was the ONLY person in either CF or CJF testing that day to pass the practical that day (with an 81.5 ) and on a rough horse with the most ugly wry pigeon toed feet you could imagine. The offered to sedate him but only had ace and I would'nt get under him on ace so I did him without anything and got done a few minutes under the time. AND me hobbling around with a freshly badly broken big toe from just a week before.
I was damn proud of myself. :D
On the shoe board I passed everything except my poor quality clips,(which were quite functional but uneven in size) and I even had to forge a swelled heel shoe *on the spot* for my "shoe to raise the hoof angle", and passed that too. :p
Its really true that the only reason I didnt go back and redo the *one element* on the shoe board the next year to finish was that by then I decided I didnt agree with the AFA testing standards on hoof balance and shoe fit and felt strongly enough about it that I couldnt bring myself to want it anymore. No "poor baby" here...I actually did quite well on every element of the test with the exception of my clip quality. Thats it. I was actually proud of myself for passing the parts that I did.
So your point now is ?

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:40 PM

post 115, Rancho JD: Could you imagine how lengthy and how few farriers would pass a CJF test if they had to display knowledge of function comparable to a professor, a PHD. is this neccesary to be a competent journeyman, one who can travel. Its the "how few farriers would pass" part that I was responsing to. its meant to say...should a journeymen farrier have comparable functional anatomical knowledge as somebody who spends the majority of life in books and classroom studying and disecting. a professor, postgrads even undergrads or the rare mega-savant who retains everything. In my opinion, with the exception of the "rare mega- savant", yes. Clear enough?

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:47 PM

Where are all these horses that are "screwed up"? One realizes this forum has the word of someone unable to pass the test with an obvious agenda fueled by jealousy, but exactly were are these animals? It pains me to say this, but it appears your envy is eating you up.Heres one recently. .Shod by the CJF son of someone HUGE in the industry with everycertificationunderthesun dad standing over him .

calshoer

12-12-2006, 10:53 PM

Where are all these horses that are "screwed up"? One realizes this forum has the word of someone unable to pass the test with an obvious agenda fueled by jealousy, but exactly were are these animals? It pains me to say this, but it appears your envy is eating you up.Heres another one from California, two years so lame they couldn't ride him at all , with long term vet care at a SF peninsula premier vet clinics,shod by their farrier. Fixed and riding again in two shoeings with EDSS. After that lady had paid hundreds of dollars every six weeks for this ****.

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 11:14 PM

Heres another one from California, two years so lame they couldn't ride him at all , with long term vet care at a SF peninsula premier vet clinics,shod by their farrier. Fixed and riding again in two shoeings with EDSS. After that lady had paid hundreds of dollars every six weeks for this ****.i dont think it was the shoeing that caused the lameness more the fact it was feed to much protein & the only thing that would fixed that would of been time say 6 to 12 months? maybe a little longer so id say your clamming a false trophy

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 11:18 PM

We could call it the J*** Off forum.
:p :D

Rickyour so funny prick sorry type o Rick

calshoer

12-12-2006, 11:22 PM

heresanother one.Slightly Older (16-17 years) world class youth W P horse, , chronic short striding by the end if the season and always needing hock and foreleg DIP joint injections. Look at the obvious broken back footlong toes and ratios on the bottom. This is shoeing 101 and THIS high priced CJF missed it. He had been shoeing for the trainer where the horse came from a long time .WE just brought his toes back, (Victory elite wedge shoes with bar wedge pads ,set back) and added frog support and he went sound without anymore injections .

J.H. shoeing

12-12-2006, 11:24 PM

calshoer

12-12-2006, 11:26 PM

Hey jacmac I found that "girlfriend" you seemed to mistake me for a couple of posts ago..... Here. Shes all yours.

Rancho JD

12-12-2006, 11:28 PM

In my opinion, with the exception of the "rare mega- savant", yes. Clear enough?yeah clear enough, it aint gonna happen. there are plenty of full time farriers non titled and CJF at a high skill level you will never see on these boards who live with children, spouse, chores around the mortgaged farm and no time or energy left to attend night school and get that degree in functional anatomy. yet somehow many of them manage to keep a full book of horses in various disciplines sound and comfortable year in and year out without the benefit of a doctors education. hhhmmmm must be something more to it. this may take some windshield time.

Rancho JD

12-12-2006, 11:30 PM

just like the barefooters, showing nothing but pictures of bad shoeing but this time isolating CJF work

jack-mac

12-12-2006, 11:39 PM

Hey jacmac I found that "girlfriend" you seemed to mistake me for a couple of posts ago..... Here. Shes all yours.whats her name to much protein she does have a little bit of a red tinge to her have you got her number i will give her a call :D

calshoer

12-12-2006, 11:42 PM

Patty

Do we need to start posting photos of the feet we see with NB shoes or the NB/EDSS shoes that we pull off that have been a wreck?

I think your about to open up a thread here that may hurt your beloved NB.Tom asked a specific question..."where are these shoe jobs" that Im talking about? so heres some to show it does happen, thats all.
Im absolutely in agreement that shoers screw up NB too. Especially when they are in the learning process. Ive got pics of some of those too. Thatys why gene has initiated his certification program. Lets see in a year or two how the certified NB farriers jobs are looking. Not the uncertified ones.
I *expect* that non certified NB farriers are going to produce some wrecks. That wouldnt be a surprize at all.
The whole point of *this* discussion is about farriers who, by their high level of certification, should be doing a lot better than these jobs.
Throwing in the incorrectly applied NB work of farriers who are not certified in the protocol anyway kinda takes the whole thing nowhere. gee I can show you all kinds of messed up NB jobs, but they're not jobs done by certified NB farriers, or even by farriers with very much training in the method, so whats the point?
Patty

Rancho JD

12-12-2006, 11:49 PM

be carefull, someday the methods you so adamantly adhere to today may be thought of as silly and archaic like those of the old timers who apparently knew nothing

calshoer

12-12-2006, 11:51 PM

i dont think it was the shoeing that caused the lameness more the fact it was feed to much protein & the only thing that would fixed that would of been time say 6 to 12 months? maybe a little longer so id say your clamming a false trophyNo jac, he wasn't foundered. It was long toes, VERY sore around the center of the frog/impar ligament ,and bruised heels, very sore there too, you can even see the heel bruising in the pics. And some medial lateral imbalance (we Xrayed him) He stayed on the same diet before and after the change in shoeing and was not overweight nor cresty. The only thing that changed was the shoeing and he was much sounder immediately after the first shoeing. The vet was there the first shoeing , he verified the immediate clinical improvement. Come to think of it, that is the same horse the first day in my avatar. The horses owner took the picture.
Heres what I put on him the first time. EDSS, frog support trimmed to be only on the very back cause he was too sore in the middle of the frog , rails enough to get a slight heel landing and optimal comfort in the turns, Imprssion material put only in the back part of the foot and soft sole pack in the front. Trimmed a ton of heel off the foot but no sole over the toe because it was trimmed to thin there already. Wish I had a side view of the "after" but the owner was taking these and thats all I got.

calshoer

12-13-2006, 12:01 AM

be carefull, someday the methods you so adamantly adhere to today may be thought of as silly and archaic like those of the old timers who apparently knew nothingSure, Icant disagree. Nothing's static. Science keeps moving forward ,as it should.
And Gene O is the first to say that NB is not the 'be all end all' and never will be . But it sure works the best for me right now.
And NB has evolved in the 11 years Ive been doing it, and it will continue to change.And something else will come along thats even better and get a name and people will get all upset over it . I'm glad for all that because moving forward scientifically is good for the horses.

jack-mac

12-13-2006, 12:16 AM

No jac, he wasn't foundered. It was long toes, VERY sore around the center of the frog/impar ligament ,and bruised heels, very sore there too, you can even see the heel bruising in the pics. And some medial lateral imbalance (we Xrayed him) He stayed on the same diet before and after the change in shoeing and was not overweight nor cresty. The only thing that changed was the shoeing and he was much sounder immediately after the first shoeing. The vet was there the first shoeing , he verified the immediate clinical improvement. Come to think of it, that is the same horse the first day in my avatar. The horses owner took the picture.Didn't say he had founded, "but definitely over heated ".By the way horses don't have to be fat to founder, I thought some one who teaches scientifically should know that fact, not being able to ride the horse most likely saved it, other wise it would of founded ,but hey it was all in the NB?sounds o so good who would doubt it

jack-mac

12-13-2006, 02:51 AM

just to follow up on that pic, when you see that happening to a horses hoof you should always ask the owner what there feeding, shoeing may make the horse a little more comfortable but its the feed that's causing the trouble, so it has to be addressed, other wise your just masking the problem

jack-mac

12-13-2006, 05:29 AM

Has any one bothered to asked themselves why those Arabs in Afghanistan are bothering to shoe there horses, when shoes & nails would be as dear as hell & hard to get, could it be that barefoot natural doesnt cut the mustard "NO THAT CANT BE RIGHT" i thought they just shod them because they had nothing better to do & liked wasting there money on horseshoes instead of food & medicines ?????????

Thomas_Ride&Drive

12-13-2006, 06:08 AM

Got to say that I think Patty's arguments and comments in relation to the CJF examination and standards are irrational, flawed and irrelevent in the context of what barefoot trimmers, owner trimmers et al are up to.

You can argue till you're blue in the face that the exam is out-moded, not detailed enough, too easy, basic (whatever) but the facts remain that its a qualification whereby substantial theory and practical work is assessed and evaluated to accepted criteria and to an endorsed standard. Not only acknowledged by professional experts within the peer group but within the veterinary profession. Furthermore it is internationally endorsed and the UK Farriers Registration Council will also accept a CJF as meeting criteria that is readily understood.

Trimmers on the other hand ..... well I won't go there but suffice it to say not even in the same ball-park!

And no one will ever persuade me that an owner can trim their horses feet after doing a short-course and its not because I'm some old-fashioned fuddy duddy. As with any practical skill unless you practice it regularly you just aren't that good at it - it takes time and practice to develop hand and eye co-ordination apart from anything else. Even when working with such as wood or metal its extremely difficult to develop the practical skill but with a horses foot there are so many variables and the consequences of getting it wrong are too great unless there is a decent understanding of equine management and equine anatomy as well.

Centuries of experience has strongly evidenced that where amature and poor trimming of equines by unqualfied, minimally trained, minimally experienced persons is practiced over an extended period it all too frequently causes lameness and chronic suffering.

My view is that whilst it may be acceptable for knowledgeable trimmers or owners to carry out minor work on feet of a cosmetic or emergency nature any significant trimming should be carried out by a CJF or a veterinary surgeon, who will have been properly trained to a recognised significantly higher minimal level and strictly regulated by a code of conduct.

Whilst my experience is limited in the USA I've got to say that having seen some appalling trimming and shoeing there and helped owners to find solutions that the place to start is with a CJF farrier. And the work that you've posted was not my personal experience as coming from someone so qualified. And I find it difficult to believe that I just hit lucky in finding a marked improvement in competence and standard with a CJF as opposed to those who were unqualified or minimally trained.

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-13-2006, 06:30 AM

Re: "Where are all these horses that are "screwed up"? One realizes this forum has the word of someone unable to pass the test with an obvious agenda fueled by jealousy, but exactly were are these animals? It pains me to say this, but it appears your envy is eating you up.

calshoer in gray

Heres one recently. .Shod by the CJF son of someone HUGE in the industry with everycertificationunderthesun dad standing over him .

Wow! That's certainly evidence of something or other, but given your penchant for relentlessly playing cheerleader for everything NB and damning out of hand anything but that flawed protocol, I'm a bit suspicious that your pictures of feet allegedly shod by CJFs don't mean squat - they're just pictures of horses' feet that you claim were shod by AFA Journeyman.

Since your jealousy apparently motivates you to denigrate the AFA's certifications (which you tried and failed to obtain at their lowest level), it follows that you might be motivated to claim your "examples" are the work of a CJF, when, in fact, they might not be genuine. In reality, this forum has only your word that the pictures represent any CJF's work. That said, I'll certainly admit that nobody grabs the brass ring every time - I sure as hell don't - so I'll ask you straight up: Is it your claim that such stuff is typical of the work of every AFA CJF? If you answer yes, you are a liar; if you say no, then why would you damn an entire process on the basis of the shoddy work of a few individuals? The answer to me is obvious: Your envy of a credential you cannot obtain has caused you to suffer a case of terminal sour gräpes.

I've been shoeing horses a bit longer than you have and have been a part of the AFA's CJF certification process since its inception here in Texas. Chances are, I've seen a helluva lot more CJF work than you have and, without equivocation, I can say that the stuff you posted is not typical of the work of anyone who can shoe a horse, and certainly not that of any CJF.

Phil Armitage

12-13-2006, 07:19 AM

Hey Patty, your comeing across as if NB/Gene discovered how to properly trim and shoe horses. We all know this is not true and I don't think Gene would want it to come across that way. A lot of great ideas have come from the farrier trade well before our generation and this century. Shoeing and trimming methods to handle ring bone, coffin joint inflamation, laminitis, tendon and ligaments strains have been around for a very long time. I have learned a lot from NB and it is a great resource. It does leave a bad taste in my mouth to see this denegration of another great recource to farriers. It took me awhile to see the role of the AFA. I think Tom S. says it best by stateing it is a test of basic required skills. Others on this forum also point out the meaning of journeyman, it is a journey and it can be a life long journey. Even new graduates from your school will be on a journey and have a lot more to learn and polish there skills.

I agree with Jack-mac on being carefull about what we think causes lamenes. How many times have you stated on this forum how mild laminitis is frequently over looked. That picture you posted of poor shoeing by a CJF, has all the signes of long term mild laminitis. Interesting the NB shoeing method you used is exactly what a laminitic/foundered horse would need. Think about the protection to the toe and support to P3, not a suprise this horse felt better.

And to get back to the original debate on teaching horse owners to trim. I think it is a bad idea for a variaty of reasons.

And to get back to Pete Ramey, he does denegrate farriers and the entire farrier profession. I read his web and articles last night, not only does he attack the farrier profession he also attacks other trimmers. It reeks of my way or the highway and also a "know it all attitude".

tbloomer

12-13-2006, 08:00 AM

Its the fault of the system that gives them that title as much as the fault of the individuals.What system? There is no system. There is a test. Folks what pass the test get the title. The test does not evaluate the candidates ability to determine a horses needs. It evaluates the candidates ability to shoe a horse according to a very strictly specified criteria.

Sort of like the NB certification test, huh? Doesn't the NB certification test evaluate the candidates ability to apply the NB protocol? Does the candidate get to decide that he or she will use a different protocol for the NB exam? What if someone wanted to take the NB exam and place the shoe according to Duckett's parameters? Ohhhhhh different system based on completely different research - would that be allowed for the test?

tbloomer

12-13-2006, 08:31 AM

Tom asked a specific question..."where are these shoe jobs" that Im talking about? so heres some to show it does happen, thats all.Well you denigrated the AFA certification test criteria, then you post pictures of shoeing that would not pass on the AFA certification criteria. Regardless of who did the work, it is not an example of shoeing to the AFA certification standards. If you are going to be critical of the standard then use an example that meets the standard.

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/afa.jpghttp://users.snip.net/~bloomer/afa2.jpg

tbloomer

12-13-2006, 08:48 AM

Work done by an AFA Certified Farrier which does NOT meet the AFA standard or the NB criteria - lousy nail line too.

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/notafa.jpg

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/notafa2.jpg

calshoer

12-13-2006, 11:07 AM

Hey Patty, your comeing across as if NB/Gene discovered how to properly trim and shoe horses. We all know this is not true and I don't think Gene would want it to come across that way. I didnt say that at all. Sure didnt mean to imply it either. Show me where I said that. Maybe you FEEL like I said it but I didnt. I said it was in my opinion the best barefoot trim protocol over the others being taiught out there,(which BTW in case everyone forgot WAS the topic if this thread) so take it in context.
So If you want to think that is what I meant, it didnt come from me.
I DID say said that for ME it is a system that works the best, so far. And the whole point of the recent CJF discussion is about them not having to prove knowledge of the functional mechanics of the anatomy,which I think they all should need to know for that level. (some certainly DO but a lot dont. If al CJFs understood thefto betyer there wouldnt be the poor examples Ive shown. Please take what I write in context.

tbloomer

12-13-2006, 11:37 AM

If al CJFs understood thefto betyer there wouldnt be the poor examples Ive shown. Please take what I write in context.Oh OK. So if folks knew better, they would do better? The majority of humanity is made up of folks what, on a daily basis, KNOWINGLY act against their own knowledge and experience. Hate the sin, love the sinner . . . cigarette anyone? How's your cholesterol?

calshoer

12-13-2006, 11:46 AM

For both Tom and JD , just like the barefooters, showing nothing but pictures of bad shoeing but this time isolating CJF workThats because the whole point of this discussion is that these farriers ARE CJF's and that title should insure something more to the horse owner than getting than ths kind of misapplied shoeing. Lots of farriers do **** work. Uncertified and certified. But these guys at his level SHOULD have proven that they know better (especially the first one,the CJF son of the guy with his dad right there .... you ALL know this guy. And the owner paid a friggin fortune to import get them him to her place to do the horse because she thought they would be the best in the country. )
Please dont think that I believe all CJFs are doing poor work. Most certainly are not. But to stay on the original point of this discussuion, because ALL CJFs are not required to learn and prove a better understanding of the functionality of the anatomy .... this can happen. This is about the *meaning* of the level of certification.

And Tom, even without pictures of good CJF work I will again point out that my issue with the standards in the test is that it uses perimeter fit with a (usually) flat shoe which is in my opinion (based on several researchrs' recent science )biomechanicaly incorrect for the foot, slowly causing damage to the impar ligament, DDFT intersection and coffin joint. Hence the show barns full of horses getting DIP injections every year. (or like a big top class dessage barn here, nearly all the horses on isoxoprene because of the high rate of navicular syndrome ...no lie. ) .
And the hoof balancing standards for the test are the Tsquare (which has been proven to be incorrect for many horses because of the inherent natural shape of P1 and the shape of the condyles in the joints. And when a farrier practices and practices these standards to pass the test, it is hard for him/her to get away from that later and see what is more correct for the individual horse.
I already discussed what I think would be a better method that would also be even more accurate assessment of the farriers knowledge of the foot anatomy so I wont repeat it. (the post about taking Xrays after the shoeing test ). I sure wont criticize the GOOD CJF field work especially where they have and set the toe back some or rolled or rockered it it, Ive sure got no probolems with that. But when I see a CJF job that fits the test requirement, (flat shoe perimeter fit to the very end of the toe) I'll sure rip it because it is wrong for the horse.
Patty

tbloomer

12-13-2006, 12:15 PM

The perimeter fit job that I posted is the front foot of a TB. Started this horse out with a set back Eventer - breakover just behind the WL in the toe heels fit very full. Horse went with plenty of entension and heel first landing, BUT was very choppy to ride and both rider and trainer said he moved like c r a p under saddle. So I set him up with a basic perimeter fit and he immediately smoothed out his gait. This horse was just fine to ride barefoot and he is currently barefoot. He was shod in the spring while he was working every day. His movement with the perimeter fit and barefoot (under saddle) are very similar. But nobody likes riding this particular horse whilst he has a set back shoe. It's the second horse where I've encountered this situation. I have no idea what to make of it other than that I'm just not convinced that perimeter fit is wrong fo ALL horses under all conditions. This horse has hind feet in front - maybe he's just young and doesn't know how to collect yet?

danverschild

12-13-2006, 12:20 PM

Patty,

I went to the EDSS site to review the new certification requirements for NB. It doesn't appear that they're using radiographic assessment to check the work of their candidates. It also wasn't clear that the written test was covering a lot of scientific material; it appeared to be a mc test dealing with mapping a foot, exfoliating sole properly, recognizing distortions from pictures, and such. The practical appears to involve opening and closing an NB shoe and pulling clips on it, and following a very detailed prescription for trimming and shoeing fronts and hinds. Is the website just not complete on this, or is there more to it?

Joey Aczon

12-13-2006, 04:15 PM

I have a couple questions.

One specifically for Mr Stovall: You have mentioned several times in this thread and others that the NB protocol is based on a flawed model of feral horses in an arid enviroment. - What would your "ideal" model be for preparing a hoof that is about to have a shoe applied to it? - I am not looking for an "it depends" either. (I feel that most of the folks here are educated enough to know that there is nothing set in stone) But since you are so vocally against it what "might" you be for?

And one for anyone holding any sort of certification: In most fields that require a certificaiton, there is some sort of review board. If a doctor botches a surgury, he/she will lose their licence and no longer allowed to practice medicine. Assuming that the photos provided by Mrs Stiller were in fact photos of shoeing done by "AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier's" (or whatever certification you may carry) would you be willing to sit on a review board to inflict some sort of penalization or complete revocation of that certification?

I am not asking if you would be willing to organize it but simply fill a chair and cast a vote. I would think it to be ones duty to not only meet a standard but to uphold it as well. - I ask this because I am currently looking into certification myself, I am interested in being able to show that I am able to meet a standard. However what good is that certification if my "peers" are either not capable, or not willing to continue working at that level? Especially when the ones that do work to that standard are not willing to stand up for themselves and say that someone undeserving of the title. In my opinion that serves no purpose but to make it take more time to sign your name.

I feel that you should have pride in the work you do. I would like to be able to say that I am a certified-fill-in-the-blank-farrier with pride, knowing that I am associated with a group of people doing work to be proud of! It would make my stomach churn to think that the examples Mrs Stiller gave could be shown side by side to my own work as being a farrier of comparable certification. I can see why Mr Stoval would be so quick to account the photos posted as fake. <speak of ad nausem>

Phil Armitage

12-13-2006, 04:54 PM

I didnt say that at all. Sure didnt mean to imply it either. Show me where I said that. Maybe you FEEL like I said it but I didnt. I said it was in my opinion the best barefoot trim protocol over the others being taiught out there,(which BTW in case everyone forgot WAS the topic if this thread) so take it in context.
So If you want to think that is what I meant, it didnt come from me.
I DID say said that for ME it is a system that works the best, so far. And the whole point of the recent CJF discussion is about them not having to prove knowledge of the functional mechanics of the anatomy,which I think they all should need to know for that level. (some certainly DO but a lot dont. If al CJFs understood thefto betyer there wouldnt be the poor examples Ive shown. Please take what I write in context.

I did take what you wrote in context and you said what I believe comes from your heart, I have no problem with that, however when one makes very strong accusations be prepaired to get feedback as I have done. You have been pretty critical and I have to say I can see why Tom S said what he said about jealousy. I also took into consideration what you consider to be the right way and wrong way. Don't get me wrong I really like NB principles, however I also like what the AFA teaches. I believe there is a need for forge work, proper hoof prep and proper nailing. There is much more to trimming and shoeing than NB protocal. I have applied it here in Maine for over 5 years and our enviroment is totaly different than Colorado or the dry arid enviroment feral horses live on. A lot of the successfull farriers in my neck of the woods have great success with St. Criox shoes, kirkhart SX-8 and SSP, hot fitting and clips. I know a lot of farriers, very few are AFA members or are aware of NB and most of the guys and gals I know do great work. The AFA certified farriers up here are all pretty buisy and very good farriers.

I have to say I have never, I want to emphasize "Never" met a horse owner or farrier that was led to believe a AFA Cert farrier is also a lameness expert. Most farriers I know shoe a combonation of competative or back yard horses. Most of us will refer lameness to the Vets and sometimes the shoeing will get refered to a farrier with more knowledge and skill when it comes to lameness then take over by the next shoeing.

I believe most AFA farriers see cert. as continueing there training and education. The theraputic classification after achieveing CJF is suppose to be the training and education to deal with lameness issues.

When it comes to learning how to map out a foot and trim I think NB has a great education package for farriers wanting to learn more.

I have found no need to use NB shoes I actually do not like them, I can achieve the same mechanics with good keg shoes, my hammer and forge. I also find if I need to set back a shoe St. Criox eventer alum. work great. There are all kinds of ways to skin a cat. I noticed a few farriers on this forum are modifying NB shoes? Why spend more money on a NB shoe then modify it. Geesh just buy regular shoes and modify them. I am now saveing more money by purchaseing all my shoes with no clips, if I need clips I draw my owne. It was a painfull learning curve, but with help from AFA Cert. farriers I learned how. I also learned how to properly use my anvil horn going for my AFA Cert.

My experience with NB and the AFA has proven to very usefull to me as a full time farrier. I am interested in NB Cert., AFA cert. and Guild Cert. Just listening to highly experienced experts in this trade not agree has proven that there is no one way. We need all the aces we can get, so that when the time comes we can pull that ace out of our pocket and walk away a winner.

Anyways, I will get off my soap box.

fairweatherforge

12-13-2006, 07:49 PM

I have a couple questions.

And one for anyone holding any sort of certification: In most fields that require a certificaiton, there is some sort of review board. If a doctor botches a surgury, he/she will lose their licence and no longer allowed to practice medicine. Assuming that the photos provided by Mrs Stiller were in fact photos of shoeing done by "AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier's" (or whatever certification you may carry) would you be willing to sit on a review board to inflict some sort of penalization or complete revocation of that certification?

I am not asking if you would be willing to organize it but simply fill a chair and cast a vote. I would think it to be ones duty to not only meet a standard but to uphold it as well. - I ask this because I am currently looking into certification myself, I am interested in being able to show that I am able to meet a standard. However what good is that certification if my "peers" are either not capable, or not willing to continue working at that level? Especially when the ones that do work to that standard are not willing to stand up for themselves and say that someone undeserving of the title. In my opinion that serves no purpose but to make it take more time to sign your name.

I feel that you should have pride in the work you do. I would like to be able to say that I am a certified-fill-in-the-blank-farrier with pride, knowing that I am associated with a group of people doing work to be proud of! It would make my stomach churn to think that the examples Mrs Stiller gave could be shown side by side to my own work as being a farrier of comparable certification. I can see why Mr Stoval would be so quick to account the photos posted as fake. <speak of ad nausem>

I see a couple of problems with the way you view things. First, the AFA certifications are not a how to test. Nobody thinks they're going to go take the test and then go shoe a horse by those guidelines. Its a national test which doesn't take into account what kind of horses you shoe or what method you use. That way anyone from a saddlebred shoer to a short foot shoer can take it.
Second, the standard, is that how you want to shoe horses? Just to the standard. I personally try to be above the standard. Something most people don't seem to realize is that most farriers that get their cjf are borderline passing. If you get all cjf's together to take the test tomorrow, most would fail. I don't think that means we all suck. It means, on the day we took the test we were prepared and passed it.
Third, what good is certification? You should be doing it for yourself. Not to show anybody anything. When your done with certification, you should be able to sit in lectures and not get lost. And you should be able to use the information from lectures and intigrate it into your shoeing protocol safely.

And to your question. I wouldn't sit on any board and tell someone there work sucks. And you could take mine and most others initials away and we wouldn't care a bit. Its not about the initials.

calshoer

12-13-2006, 08:35 PM

Is the website just not complete on this, or is there more to it?To both questions, Yes to some extent. But first off the NB basic certification requirements are not even intended to be near same skill level as a journeyman farrier (which AGAIN is what this conversation is about...sigh. )God why do people have to get so far off track?
There were *some* science questions on the test I took, like recognizing a negative plane foot , a question about metabolic syndrome, where do the terminal papillae originate from, shoeing for high ringbone, floot flight relative to breakover point , stuff like that. So far they have administered only level 3 tests which is basic NB, not theraeutic. This was NOT an advanced level 4 certification it was the basic NB. And basic NB ( level 3) is sorta like basic regular shoeing , if you carefully follow some reliable guidelines on reading the external foot you will be very close to correct NB . Remember the NB test is specifically to test if the candidate can do simple NB application correctly, it's not a general shoeing test nor is it for certification in advanced levels for treating pathologies.
I can only assume that the level 4 will likely have a lot more science in the test, because it is for testing skills in decision making and applying full EDSS or clogs for treating lameness.
As to Xrays, I personally would like to see the X-ray conformation of breakover placement on *all* shoeing the tests, but its probably not practical but it should at least be in the advanced levels (EDSS level 4 included) Im not involved with EDSS (really folks I DONT work for them) so I can only suggest it to them.
Since EDSS recently acquired an Xray machine for taking hoof balance films, I will suggest that .
They did use Xrays it in a couple of recent clinics to illustrate to the candidates how accurate the sole callous is in determining the placement of P3 within the capsule,and to illustrate where P2 and the navicular bone moves within the joint just before heel lift off .
Even for basic NB, if the candidate accurately maps the foot from the widest part and and locate the edge of the sole callous then he has accurately located P3 (because it IS very consistant) .Therefore most of them should be able to get the breakover right.
But an "after" x ray would be even better in my opinion. If nothing else to illustrate how good the sole is as a guide.
As to the shoe modifications, they make the candidate make a hind shoe out of a front NB, a front NB into a hind, pull functional clips , and modify any other brand of shoe into a front NB pattern . The NB certifications are not supposed to be a forging test. They require enough hot shoe modifications to insure the candidate will be able to properly shape a NB shoe or modify another type to that protocol.

Jaye Perry

12-13-2006, 08:54 PM

To both questions, Yes to some extent. ........

For the years we have parlayed; you have given obscure points of agreements and diatribes to disagreements.
Patty,
i have pictures of EDSS, NBS and extrapolation thereof,: major universities-certified NBS and so forth. Good, bad or indifferent.
When are you going to suc***b that that there is more than one way to skin a cat?
Gene has stated that particular statement on the online conference last year. Here on this site, versus Craig (AFA President at that time).

Please, do not be a zealot, be a good horseshoer/farrier/scientist and forward thinker.:cool:

calshoer

12-13-2006, 09:07 PM

I dont understand why every time I criticise something specific that had NOTHING to do with NB (like the AFA CJF test ) it turns into a NB discussion . When it was not even about NB.
It WAS about barefoot clinicians.
The it became if CJFs should be the ones teaching barefoot.
So I poijnted out that one does not need forging skills to do only barefoot horses ,and I criticised some CJF's lack of scientific knowlege (and sometimes skill) which had drawn some people to barefoot in the first place out of their frustration with the shoeing they were paying top bucks for . (and Phil I HAVE known people who hired CJFs strictly because they though that meant more lskill in treating lameness)

SO THEN what happens? Same thing as always..it becomes about ciriticizing NB and ME personally. AND MAKING WRONG ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT MY MOTIVES .
Where in the hell does that come from?
So if you want to discuss the NB protocol specifically, then start another thread.
If you want to discuss MY personal phycologiological motives, then hire a phycologist cause you're not one and neither is Tom S. Assume all you want about me , your way off track.

Joey Aczon

12-13-2006, 10:32 PM

I see a couple of problems with the way you view things. First, the AFA certifications are not a how to test. Nobody thinks they're going to go take the test and then go shoe a horse by those guidelines. Its a national test which doesn't take into account what kind of horses you shoe or what method you use. That way anyone from a saddlebred shoer to a short foot shoer can take it.
Second, the standard, is that how you want to shoe horses? Just to the standard. I personally try to be above the standard. Something most people don't seem to realize is that most farriers that get their cjf are borderline passing. If you get all cjf's together to take the test tomorrow, most would fail. I don't think that means we all suck. It means, on the day we took the test we were prepared and passed it.
Third, what good is certification? You should be doing it for yourself. Not to show anybody anything. When your done with certification, you should be able to sit in lectures and not get lost. And you should be able to use the information from lectures and intigrate it into your shoeing protocol safely.

And to your question. I wouldn't sit on any board and tell someone there work sucks. And you could take mine and most others initials away and we wouldn't care a bit. Its not about the initials.

First of all I want to say I am not trying to make any judgements here. I don't know enough about the different certifications to accurately do so. I am genuinely interested in hearing the views on this by certified professionals. I know it can be very easy to do so but please don't read any sarcasim into what I am posting here, I do have some noted interest here.

I think you may have hit some of the same points I was aiming at better than I did.

I am actually gonna go at this backward. I "am" only interested in certification for my own gratification. I quite honestly don't know personally very many "certified" farriers and I really don't think that it is a prerequisite for a good farrier. I am the type of person that is never happy with knowing "enough." As far as I am concerned I will only know enough when I am dead, not much use for knowledge at that point. I choose to do this because this is what I enjoy. I find the "art" of horseshoeing facinating, I can't get enough of it. So if and when I do decide to strive for some sort of certification I want it to be representative of my knowledge of the anatomy and mechanics of a hoof and my skill to make it perform at its maximum potential reguardless of injury or malady, not representative of my carpenrty skills (please don't take offense)

I would be quite satisfied with "only" meeting the standard. That is the point of taking the test in the first place, is to show ones capacity to meet that standard. If the quality of my work never excelled beyond "standard" I would not be disappointed, I would not stop trying to better myself and abilities simply because I have met "standard" requirements if that is what you meant. The day I start doing my work perfunctorily is the day I search a new venue.

On your comments about the tests not including the "how": Why would you strive to follow those guidelines to pass a test knowing you won't be using those guidelines. Before learning more about the anatomy, and mechanics of the "inside" of the foot, I was learning how to shoe TWH park horses. If I had continued on that path what purpose would a CF or CJF have done for me? I mean I may just be confused but I don't see the actual pertinence in taking the test. I mean the CF practical doesn't seem like more than making a foot look pretty with a pretty shoe, and pretty nailing, the study guide makes no reference to analyzing flight patterns, landing or loading in the testing procedure. It's foot prep, shoe prep, nailing, clinching and finishing.

Please... help me out here

Jaye Perry

12-13-2006, 10:44 PM

calshoer-I dont understand why every time I criticise something specific that had NOTHING to do with NB (like the AFA CJF test ) it turns into a NB discussion ..... Because YOU are so admit about NBS. Look at the replies over the years Patty.
NBS, NBS, NBS, NBS........ to one extent to the other; one realm or the other. Every horse doesn'r need the heels trimmed back ot the shoe pulled off the toe or Bowker or others thrown in the face of people. Science is an evolution............ you as a farrier should understand and not stand still n one pond.

Same thing as always..it becomes about ciriticizing NB and ME personally. AND MAKING WRONG ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT MY MOTIVES . ....

Not criticizing NBS, Duckett, AFA, ING, Peep, or BUA or or or or or any methodologies;
Sign of a well rounded farrier is use the methodology that suits that horse in that particular time in the horse's life.

Criticizing you, never until you become zealous.

Jaye:D

Rick Burten

12-13-2006, 10:53 PM

Work done by an AFA Certified Farrier which does NOT meet the AFA standard or the NB criteria - lousy nail line too.

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/notafa.jpg
The nail line isn't the problem and would more than likely score a 7-7.5. Your clinches would rate a 6.5-7 depending on what the others look like.

If you had declared your heel fit/expansion correctly, you'd get an 8 from me.

The fit at the toe is going to be somewhat of an issue and depending on the examiner/tester, will score anywhere from a 5 to a 6.5. Of course, that's just MNTBCHO as a former tester.

It would be close, but all other things being equal, you would probably have passed were I your tester(and I am, of course, overlooking the pad when I say this.

Rick

calshoer

12-13-2006, 11:11 PM

Because YOU are so admit about NBS. Look at the replies over the years Patty.So what I say "over the years" has to make makes THIS thread about NB too? . Give me a break.

Jaye Perry

12-13-2006, 11:15 PM

The nail line isn't the problem and would more than likely score a 7-7.5. Your clinches would rate a 6.5-7 depending on what the others look like.

If you had declared your heel fit/expansion correctly, you'd get an 8 from me.

The fit at the toe is going to be somewhat of an issue and depending on the examiner/tester, will score anywhere from a 5 to a 6.5. Of course, that's just MNTBCHO as a former tester.

It would be close, but all other things being equal, you would probably have passed were I your tester(and I am, of course, overlooking the pad when I say this.

Rick
6.78 with all given numbers; a passing score --- mmmmmmmmm?
Is passing 6.0 or 7.0?:confused:

Jaye Perry

12-13-2006, 11:26 PM

So what I say "over the years" has to make makes THIS thread about NB too? . Give me a break.
I would give you a break, but damn, every word except I love you is NBS or things there abouts.

Hell Patty I put on NBS today. Wedge pad and packing. Took pictures to show the "No Roll" to the edges that "You" said they had. Also the ridge that has to ground away to place the shoe in or on the mapped out foot "per the instructions".
I did that just to give ya a hard time, but i didn't and will not post pics because i have met ya and admire your passion. Your zeal is hard to swallow.:o

calshoer

12-13-2006, 11:35 PM

Took pictures to show the "No Roll" to the edges that "You" said they had. Then you must have put on the NB aluminums.Theres more than one kind of NB shoe you know. Ok Ill admit the aluminums don't have the same roll the steels do when they're new, but they will wear in quickly if the horse needs more roll on the edge. Not like a steel flat shoe that cant wear to what the horse needs nearly as fast.
The steels have a nice roll edge, similar to a half round, if you cant see that I dont know what on earth your looking at. Also the ridge that has to ground away to place the shoe in or on the mapped out foot "per the instructions". WHAT ridge? Theres no "ridge". Theres sole relief built into the sole surface. I dont understand that statement all. Show me what your talking about .

Jaye Perry

12-13-2006, 11:43 PM

calshoer-Then you must have put on the NB aluminums.Theres more than one kind of NB shoe you know. Ok Ill admit the aluminums don't have the same roll the steels do when they're new, but they will wear in quickly if the horse needs more roll on the edge. Not like a steel flat shoe that cant wear to what the horse needs nearly as fast.

Yes, aluminums. I shoe alot of horses with issues, "L" sign , lighter shoes means better results.
That is what i mean about having an abundance of zeal, a lot of folks here were not raised on a turnip farm:D

....dont know what on earth your looking at. WHAT ridge? Theres no "ridge". Theres sole relief built into the sole surface. I dont understand that statement all. Show me what your talking about

Tommorow, I am to tired to get he camera from the truck :(

calshoer

12-14-2006, 12:08 AM

Oh and BTW I've been going back through the boards some to begin looking at a lot of my old posts to see how much I say here about NB specifically vs talkign about sound general principles of hoof mechanics or other shoes. It seems that Im pretty careful to NOT mention NB specifically except when theres no other way around to get a certain point Im making.
I talk about the *mechanics* of the shoeing a lot more in general terms, and I have suggested every kind of shoe under the sun over the years that might provide those mechanics including StCroix eventers, half rounds, GE wedges(just mentioned them here today as a matter of fact), egg bars (just suggested those today too) and every kind of modified package with pad stacks for ful lroller motion, you name it.

But still you sensitive boneheads can't seem recall anything Ive written that comes out of my head except the NB stuff. Forget Ive written everythig else.
Typical men I guess, selective hearing or in this case selective reading. :rolleyes:
So next time Rick or Phil or anyone else here refers a poster to the NB website for information on evaluating a hoof (cause they both do that a LOT) Ill jump all over their *** for supporting a protocol's site that offers that information. Thats only fair I think. In fact it seems that lately more people here are sending posters to the NB site for information than I am. So hows that sound, boys? Fair?

Forgewizard

12-14-2006, 12:12 AM

Well, finally got my internet connection at the house fixed and don't have to sit at Denny's to get online! http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

I posted this on the chrono BB too, since for some reason the (can't imagine why) both boards are talking about similar things....:

Regarding the "Sole Callous" issue and how "wild horses" in arid rocky environments ( which I will admit seems to be what history tells us suits them quite well) - although there are a LOT of equids on the grassy savannahs of Africa, and the Steppes of MOngolia, and the pampas (grasslands) of argentina, and the coastal marshes of France and the deserts of Arabia and.... and.... and.... - which only proves that these animals are highly adaptable and can flourish in many environments. Each however will present with variations in hoof form.

Sooooo, as I said before, this lump of built up sole on the wild horses is no real proof that that is GOOD hoof form!

Just because the sole is thick and NON exfoliated on the wild arrid hoof - doesn't mean it needs to be there on every horse's hoof!

Look at the stances of many of those wild horses standing. - Camped under fore and hinds, every last one of them resting at least one hind leg. - During an evaluation of a domestic horse, I personally would look for caudal heel pain issues. (Of course, now I can't find the pic that was referenced in the original post)

Here is a better analogy than the slippery glass of water:
And one that takes into account the fact that the tissue we are speaking of is at its basic core just skin:

Pigs. Pigs have no sweat glands in their body skin. The skin on their backs that is exposed the most to the elements of wind, rain, and merciless sun will develop thick, crusty flakes. These will build up to become almost 3/8 inch thick in some places!

Underneath these crusts remains fresh, soft normal skin.

When it rains or the pig gets a chance to wallow these crusts will get rubbed off , exposing the soft new skin underneath. This new skin is not any thicker nor any thinner than normal, it just SEEMS to be because the crusty old skin is gone. The newly exposed skin will be tender to touch and sensitive to the sun until it regains its thickened crust.

Does that mean all pigs are supposed to have crusty skin? No! No more than all humans are supposed to have hardened calloused hands because some farmer milking cows in the desert has such hardened calloused hands!

Take a wild horse from an arrid range and put him in the marches and that lump of built up hard sole will slough off, his walls will bend and crack and the hoof form will flatten out.

Put that same horse on the grass pampas and his soles will harden, build up and the toes will grow long and split and crack. Take him and park him on the sandy dunes and its likely that his hooves will grow wider, flatter and the soles will aften get abraded completely away, or build up and then pop out in a huge lump.

The sole callous is just NOT IMO an actual structure that is MEANT to be there - it just HAPPENS to be there.

You have to remember too, that on those arrid hoof forms so often shown, with the huge thickend soles, that while the ground surface level of the wall (near the thickened sole) may be abraded away - the wall is STILL outgrown and WILL be bearing a considerable portion of the weight. Now, the key is to discover whether that thickened lump of sole presents bruised soles, corns and pain issues for the "wild horse" in an arrid environment.

Yeah, sure many will say - but they CAN'T be lame - look at them gallop! Yep, and I've seen broken legged horses gallop too. - Its a survival thing.

IF you leave a horse's sole to build up into a thickened lump, the hoof loses a LOT of functionality and the horse suffers from it. The key is to mechanically exfioliate what needs to go - because the horse hasn't been able to get into the proper environment or movement to do it himself.

Remove the dead, exfoliating sole, don't take away from the woking sole and never invade the live sole. Pretty simple. The exfoliating sole will peel off in flakes or chunks or a chalky mess depepnding on how much moisture is in the tissue, and how long he's been trompling around on it, as well as how healthy it is.

Patty, I'm a bit curious about your description of that "last rasp swipe" damaging the terminal Papillae and its effect on ability to regrow adequate sole. Also your comment about hooves that get the sole callous trimmed away, how is it then that the "sole callous" returns when done according to your preferred NB methods?

If the damage prevents the regrowth of the sole callous because of more "traditional AFA methods", then what miracle happens to regenerate these damaged papillae? I am NOT arguing here - just trying to figure out the process.

Also wouldn't the terminal papillae sustain an equal amount of damage via excessive compression from an overly burdened sole callous? Or do you think that a sole callous never becomes excessive?

calshoer

12-14-2006, 12:24 AM

Kim start a different thread for this. Im done here.

Phil Armitage

12-14-2006, 07:04 AM

Kim, to add to what you said. I see differences in the same horses when they change from being stalled frequently to being turned out more. I also see the change in shape horses that come to Maine from a dryer part of the country.

The toe callouse debate is good one, hot fitting is also a debated issue. I have to say that if I am carefull about not invadeing the live sole plane in the toe the feet get better or at least maintain. Those TB thin walled thin soled horses feet are great examples of what carefull trimming and hot fitting can do. We argue the value of hot fitting up here some guys do it religiously and some do not hot fit at all. I do a lot more hot fitting in the past few years and it definately helps in our wet muddy conditions. I think it helps by drawing out excess moiture, drys out and hardens up inner edge of the sole and hoof wall, increasing strength and maintaining shape.

Phil Armitage

12-14-2006, 07:11 AM

Patty not trying to pick on you or insult you. As you can see your highly respected on this forum.

I have a question in regards to NB shoes. This is something I have suspected for a long time and just want to get it out there.

Think about the trimming principles, conservative sole removal and then the addition of a very thick shoe with tons of sole reliefe and sometimes the addition of a very supportive and protective NB pad with impression material. My question is which benefits the horse the most all that protection or mechanics? By mechanics I mean Medial/lateral balance, breakover and heel first landing. Personaly I have found sore feet will screw up motion in a heart beat. Get those feet comfortable by whatever means and the gaits will improve. Gaited shoeing is a ton of protection and support, after I apply NB shoes and pads I have had remarks by horse owners on how nice that show package looked. I take care of the brood mares and yearlings at a morgan show barn here in Maine. The trainer and I talk about gaited shoeing and how her horses work and train everyday and never take a lame step in that shoeing.

So my point and/or question, when we see instant reliefe at the first application of NB shoes and pads did we protect soreness in the bottom of the feet or was it the breakover? My point is, if I add shoes and pads and a horse walks off better that tell me he is foot sore and needed shoes and pads. If the horse does not walk off better then something else is wrong. Many Vet up here use this as a way to figure out lameness. A seated out shoe with a rim pad is a great way to get the bottom of the foot off the ground, however oh oh, no frog support. However this method has been used for years in my area with no adverse affects to the lack of frog support. Why? and then again I ask why? and then to that answer I ask why? and will ask two more times why? Ask why 5 times and you will get a lot of good information. I honestly do not know, just asking.

tbloomer

12-14-2006, 08:40 AM

(and I am, of course, overlooking the pad when I say this. RickThe pad says R. Steel on the bottom. Overlook the pad at your own peril. Also got the shoe from Ray . . .

tbloomer

12-14-2006, 09:01 AM

6.78 with all given numbers; a passing score --- mmmmmmmmm?
Is passing 6.0 or 7.0?:confused:Yea Rick. What about that? I would need a 7.5 on several other items to get a passing average of 7.0. I guarantee that foot surface is not perpindicular to the cannon bone. How hard would you hit me for that? Flat foot and flat shoe . . . if you can't see daylight does that get a 10 or a 7. Shoe is deep seated. How does that score for sole pressure? Do you take off points if the shoe has too much sole relief? Look at the 1/16" gap around the pad. That's a lot of business cards. Shouldn't it be just ONE business card? :)

I spent more than an hour shoeing that horse in front. He got Fforshner's hoof packing all over the driveway . . . finally had to chase the owner away so that the horse would stop messing with her and let me nail on the shoes. Ya think my nail line might look a little better if I had pre-drilled the pad and the horse just stood there while I nailed?

Rick Burten

12-14-2006, 09:23 AM

6.78 with all given numbers; a passing score --- mmmmmmmmm?
Is passing 6.0 or 7.0?:confused:
Nothing to be confused about here. 7.0 is passing and I did specifically say, "It would be close, but all other things being equal, you would probably have passed were I your tester(and I am, of course, overlooking the pad when I say this."

And the reason I mentioned the pad is because it is not a part of the practical, so I 'overlooked it' and extrapolated. So sue me. :rolleyes:
I guarantee that foot surface is not perpindicular to the cannon bone. How hard would you hit me for that? Flat foot and flat shoe . . . if you can't see daylight does that get a 10 or a 7. Shoe is deep seated. How does that score for sole pressure? Do you take off points if the shoe has too much sole relief? Look at the 1/16" gap around the pad. That's a lot of business cards. Shouldn't it be just ONE business card?
1. depends on how far from perpendicular it is. Read the Guide for clarification.
2. Depends on whether or not any daylight was visible anywhere around the shoe. None visible, 10.
3. 10
4. No, unless it makes the shoe unstable on the hoof.
5. Rule of thumb is a minimum of one business card/matchbook cover. More than that , no mi importa.

Re-read the Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Certifications. It explains the scoring fairly succinctly.

Rick

tbloomer

12-14-2006, 10:59 AM

And the reason I mentioned the pad is because it is not a part of the practical, so I 'overlooked it' and extrapolated. So sue me. :rolleyes:
RickI just hope tha Ray Steel is not insulted by the fact that you overlooked his superior quality leather pad. Don't you feel that you owe Ran an apology? I thought you were a person who had the capacity to savor and appreciate fine things rather than deliberately overlook them. Tisk Tisk . . . and what about the bovine what gave its life so that Ray could make its skin into an instrument of soundness? Should we deliberately ignore this lowly creature's contribution?

I managed to get two resets out of that pad whilst charging for the pad each time. Unfortunately, for Ray, I only paid HIM for the pad once. :) However, I don't feel the least bit guilty about the sichiashun. Does that mean I get a bad score for low morals? :mad:

ray steele

12-14-2006, 01:18 PM

Tom,

Two resets! Guess you didn't read the fine print about the "rent" for reusing the pads. If you missed it it's written on the side of the pad,around the edge, sorry thos lite pads use the small fonts!

Regards

Ray Steele

smitty88

12-14-2006, 03:23 PM

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/smitty88_2006/trialjobpr-1.jpg

Patty i know you said your finished with the thread
just woundered if you aprove of this type of fit

i know you only have the one view to look at
whats your taughts

this shoe is a3/4 fullered hand made

calshoer

12-14-2006, 06:25 PM

From the side looks real nice but I would have to see the sole, and the trim of the foot before the shoe was applied to make any other comment.

Ronald Aalders

12-15-2006, 02:22 AM

You could and IMO should have rolled the toe more Smitty. I take it this is a front foot........

If you do remember that the roll affects the (toe)clip angle you need to burn in the clip nicely. The roll will increase the angle so angle it a bit less before fitting.

Ronald Aalders

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-15-2006, 02:31 AM

Head 2 Toe in gray, deletia

One specifically for Mr Stovall: You have mentioned several times in this thread and others that the NB protocol is based on a flawed model of feral horses in an arid enviroment. - What would your "ideal" model be for preparing a hoof that is about to have a shoe applied to it?

There is no "ideal" model for all feet. First, because the primary functions of fronts and hinds differ; secondly, because maximum biomechanical efficiency on both ends is the goal of use-based farriery and no two horses are exactly alike. To me, good farriery is about giving every horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best it can - easy to say, damn difficult to get done consistently.

- I am not looking for an "it depends" either. (I feel that most of the folks here are educated enough to know that there is nothing set in stone) But since you are so vocally against it what "might" you be for?

While I appreciate you're not looking for an "it depends", that's the best answer to your question.

And one for anyone holding any sort of certification: In most fields that require a certificaiton, there is some sort of review board. If a doctor botches a surgury, he/she will lose their licence and no longer allowed to practice medicine.

Nossir, if a doctor botches a single surgery, he might be successfully sued for malpractice, but he's not going to lose his licesnse unless drugs or alcohol was involved. Doctors are human: they make mistakes. On the other hand, if a doctor consistently botches surgeries, the state medical board will probably take some kind of action.

Assuming that the photos provided by Mrs Stiller were in fact photos of shoeing done by "AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier's" (or whatever certification you may carry) would you be willing to sit on a review board to inflict some sort of penalization or complete revocation of that certification?

If push comes to shove, I don't have any problem with asking a farrier to defend his work (Lord knows, I've had to defend mine); however, if his work is consistent with his attempt to address the needs of the horse, I could not in good conscience penalize him on the basis of my opinion of the best means of addressing those needs, even though mine was at variance with his.

Ronald Aalders

12-15-2006, 02:36 AM

Every horse doesn'r need the heels trimmed back
Jaye:D

If this is supposed to say "Not every horse needs its heels trimmed back to the widest part of the frog" I do not agree.

Without trimming back the heels to the widest part of the frog you loose caudal support. You don't want that. Even when trimming back the heels results in a broken back hoof pastern axis you need to trim those heels back. I can not think of any exception. And what would we do with all those wedge pads?

I agree a (maybe even a large) number of horses do well without their heels being trimmed back. But that only proves the horse is an amazingly adaptive creature. After all, horses are supposed to do well because of us, not do well in spite of us.

I also agree breakover of fronts should be at the tip of P3, or even further back. Here I do have an exception, the hinds of a reiner. But I wondered about breakover and hinds before. You can not simply compare the fronts and hinds. But that's something I have not really begun to understand yet. Probably in my next life.............. :cool:

Ronald Aalders

smitty88

12-15-2006, 02:45 AM

jack-mac

12-15-2006, 05:09 AM

If this is supposed to say "Not every horse needs its heels trimmed back to the widest part of the frog" I do not agree.

Without trimming back the heels to the widest part of the frog you loose caudal support. You don't want that. Even when trimming back the heels results in a broken back hoof pastern axis you need to trim those heels back. I can not think of any exception. And what would we do with all those wedge pads?

I agree a (maybe even a large) number of horses do well without their heels being trimmed back. But that only proves the horse is an amazingly adaptive creature. After all, horses are supposed to do well because of us, not do well in spite of us.

I also agree breakover of fronts should be at the tip of P3, or even further back. Here I do have an exception, the hinds of a reiner. But I wondered about breakover and hinds before. You can not simply compare the fronts and hinds. But that's something I have not really begun to understand yet. Probably in my next life.............. :cool:

Ronald Aalderssorry Ron but i would have to agree with Jaye on this one ,it seem pretty pointless trimming heels down then wedging them back up ?

Ronald Aalders

12-15-2006, 12:50 PM

No need for excuses Jack-Mac, but I would really encourage you to roam these boards a lot more.

Try looking for things like "ground support length", "loading heels", that kind of stuff.

Ronald Aalders

Ronald Aalders

12-15-2006, 12:51 PM

No Ron this is a hind foot on a driving cob

Nice shoeing! :D

Ronald Aalders

Joey Aczon

12-15-2006, 02:04 PM

calshoer

12-15-2006, 07:02 PM

Assuming that the photos provided by Mrs Stiller were in fact photos of shoeing done by "AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier's" They were.

Joey Aczon

12-15-2006, 08:48 PM

They were.
There were a few words said that were implying they weren't (not by you) and I was trying to word it in a way that the question could be answered objectively. I wasn't doubting you.

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-15-2006, 08:57 PM

re: Assuming that the photos provided by Mrs Stiller were in fact photos of shoeing done by "AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier's"...

calshoer in gray

They were.

"They were?" Thanks for clearing that up.

Unfortunately, the uncorroborated testimony of anyone who implies such work is typical of those of us who've earned the AFA's CJF credential can most accurately be described as the end products of male bovine digestion. Put another way, if it's your claim that such work is typical of AFA Journeymen, you're a liar. Nothing fancy - just a plain, ordinary, run-of-the-mill, liar. If it's not your claim that such stuff is typical, then your posting it as representative of CJF work is obviously intended to be misleading and smacks of both disingenuousness and envy.

Disingenuousness? That's a nice way of describing mendacity without using the word, "liar." :)

fairweatherforge

12-15-2006, 09:14 PM

There were a few words said that were implying they weren't (not by you) and I was trying to word it in a way that the question could be answered objectively. I wasn't doubting you.

aside from certification. Each farrier specializes in different areas. Nobody has the total package. Some are closer than others. And in the future as the learning curve is expediated the gap will close. Forget that pic patty showed. If you want to compare yourself with someone that can fit a shoe. Go to Stoneleigh, England. Let there be no doubt in you mind, you will feel inferior. The afa is targeted because it is national. Its the big boy on the block. The testing has to fit every farrier in the US. NB doesn't fit every farrier. The guild is pretty close but still not as point blank. Take whatever certification you want. None of them is anything more than a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I think all the certifications out there are very good in there own right. The only thing I don't particularly like is the upper level NB tests. I don't think there should be testing on a particular product line. Which is exactly what edss and clogs are.

Joey Aczon

12-15-2006, 09:33 PM

The only thing I don't particularly like is the upper level NB tests. I don't think there should be testing on a particular product line. Which is exactly what edss and clogs are.

Really? I see more of a need for testing mainly because these are specifically lameness oriented products with its own method. That information can be generalized and applied with other products. I see it more as a "method" test than a product test.

fairweatherforge

12-15-2006, 11:03 PM

Really? I see more of a need for testing mainly because these are specifically lameness oriented products with its own method. That information can be generalized and applied with other products. I see it more as a "method" test than a product test.

Really? I believe there should be a therapuetic test. But the clog test is nothing more than applying a clog. I don't feel like going back and anaylizing the nb tests right now. From what I can remember, what's the difference between the edss and the clog test. Its the product. Derotate the foot and appply the clog according to your mapped out foot which you already did for you nb trimming cert. So basically what they're saying is buy plane ticket to clolorado, get a hotel. spend a weekend in a class and perform the same test as I already have previously but now apply a clog.

Have you not noticed that everything to do with nb is reducing breakover a 1/4 inch in front of p3 and loading the rear 2/3 of the foot. That is what the shoe application of nb is. I completely agree with what nb does on front feet. I'm undecided on hinds. But if Patty or anybody else wants to bash cjf's, I will tear nb apart. Starting with there certification, and continueing on to the videos and breaking down every single thing they say and do. I refuse to bash anyone that got certified 20 years ago being cjf, guild or what have you. Or there sons, hopefully they will expand there knowledge. News flash, people have been fitting shoes 1/3 2/3 for years. Bob Pethicks been doing for years. I believe it was Mr. Stovall that suggested somebody else has been doing it for even longer, way back in the 80's or 70's. jack Miller was it? can't remember. nb decided to roll the toe on it. Which I don't think has much of an impact on soft footing. But I could be wrong. And I don't know if you've ever burned a shoe on. If you press in the center of the foot, the high side burns down quicker. imo, if you burn a shoe on you'll get pretty close to the sole plane unless you specifically press on one side or the other. So just to make myself clear. I believe almost everything patty and nb have to say. But I also believe they need to change their upper level testing. Because as it stands its nothing more than selling a product. IMO, manufactures need to stay out of certifications.

danverschild

12-15-2006, 11:08 PM

I believe it was Mr. Stovall that suggested somebody else has been doing it for even longer, way back in the 80's or 70's. jack Miller was it? can't remember.

Gunnar Gatski

fairweatherforge

12-15-2006, 11:20 PM

Gunnar Gatski

I've been corrected. But anywho, suprisingly enough they're not doing anything special. Gunnar Gatski's been doing it for years. He didn't even have to go to the middle of nowhere to look at a bunch of horses he couldn't catch to pick up there feet.

ranchoblanco

12-16-2006, 12:05 AM

Did Mitch Taylor apprentice for Gunnar back in the day?

Rick Burten

12-16-2006, 12:09 AM

I see it more as a "method" test than a product test.
Hmmmmm, that sounds suspiciously like the definition of the AFA practical exams, whether you call it a "method test" or a "prescription" or whatever.

Rick

Rick Burten

12-16-2006, 12:12 AM

Gunnar Gatski
Danvers,

Help me out here if you can. There was a shoer from California that did a lot of H/J horses and he came out with an aluminum front shoe that was blunt/squarish at the toe, meant to be set back, etc. The shoe didn't catch on, but it was named after the shoer. I can see the shoe in what is left of my mind, but I can't read the name that's moulded into it. Like Gunnar, this guy was doing pretty much what is now ballyhooed about when we discuss NB principles and shoes.

Rick

Joey Aczon

12-16-2006, 12:18 AM

Have you not noticed that everything to do with nb is reducing breakover a 1/4 inch in front of p3 and loading the rear 2/3 of the foot. That is what the shoe application of nb is. I completely agree with what nb does on front feet. I'm undecided on hinds.

Good point, I can see now why someone could have an issue with that.

Forgewizard

12-16-2006, 10:17 AM

Hey folks,

Maybe ya'll don't really want to discuss the original post to this thread. And I can understand how we can all get talking about "methodology" which, in the most basic view IS what the original post was about, but let's keep the AFA vs other methods of shoeing to their respective threads - please?

Yeah, O.K. so I'm being a party puuper here, but I REALLY would like to talk about this view of hoof trimming approach.

so I'll repost what I posted in post number 182 a few days ago and hope there is SOMEone out there wanting to discus it.

Re: hmm, really now?
Well, finally got my internet connection at the house fixed and don't have to sit at Denny's to get online! http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

I posted this on the chrono BB too, since for some reason the (can't imagine why) both boards are talking about similar things....:

Regarding the "Sole Callous" issue and how "wild horses" in arid rocky environments ( which I will admit seems to be what history tells us suits them quite well) - although there are a LOT of equids on the grassy savannahs of Africa, and the Steppes of MOngolia, and the pampas (grasslands) of argentina, and the coastal marshes of France and the deserts of Arabia and.... and.... and.... - which only proves that these animals are highly adaptable and can flourish in many environments. Each however will present with variations in hoof form.

Sooooo, as I said before, this lump of built up sole on the wild horses is no real proof that that is GOOD hoof form!

Just because the sole is thick and NON exfoliated on the wild arrid hoof - doesn't mean it needs to be there on every horse's hoof!

Look at the stances of many of those wild horses standing. - Camped under fore and hinds, every last one of them resting at least one hind leg. - During an evaluation of a domestic horse, I personally would look for caudal heel pain issues. (Of course, now I can't find the pic that was referenced in the original post)

Here is a better analogy than the slippery glass of water:
And one that takes into account the fact that the tissue we are speaking of is at its basic core just skin:

Pigs. Pigs have no sweat glands in their body skin. The skin on their backs that is exposed the most to the elements of wind, rain, and merciless sun will develop thick, crusty flakes. These will build up to become almost 3/8 inch thick in some places!

Underneath these crusts remains fresh, soft normal skin.

When it rains or the pig gets a chance to wallow these crusts will get rubbed off , exposing the soft new skin underneath. This new skin is not any thicker nor any thinner than normal, it just SEEMS to be because the crusty old skin is gone. The newly exposed skin will be tender to touch and sensitive to the sun until it regains its thickened crust.

Does that mean all pigs are supposed to have crusty skin? No! No more than all humans are supposed to have hardened calloused hands because some farmer milking cows in the desert has such hardened calloused hands!

Take a wild horse from an arrid range and put him in the marches and that lump of built up hard sole will slough off, his walls will bend and crack and the hoof form will flatten out.

Put that same horse on the grass pampas and his soles will harden, build up and the toes will grow long and split and crack. Take him and park him on the sandy dunes and its likely that his hooves will grow wider, flatter and the soles will aften get abraded completely away, or build up and then pop out in a huge lump.

The sole callous is just NOT IMO an actual structure that is MEANT to be there - it just HAPPENS to be there.

You have to remember too, that on those arrid hoof forms so often shown, with the huge thickend soles, that while the ground surface level of the wall (near the thickened sole) may be abraded away - the wall is STILL outgrown and WILL be bearing a considerable portion of the weight. Now, the key is to discover whether that thickened lump of sole presents bruised soles, corns and pain issues for the "wild horse" in an arrid environment.

Yeah, sure many will say - but they CAN'T be lame - look at them gallop! Yep, and I've seen broken legged horses gallop too. - Its a survival thing.

IF you leave a horse's sole to build up into a thickened lump, the hoof loses a LOT of functionality and the horse suffers from it. The key is to mechanically exfioliate what needs to go - because the horse hasn't been able to get into the proper environment or movement to do it himself.

Remove the dead, exfoliating sole, don't take away from the woking sole and never invade the live sole. Pretty simple. The exfoliating sole will peel off in flakes or chunks or a chalky mess depepnding on how much moisture is in the tissue, and how long he's been trompling around on it, as well as how healthy it is.

Patty, I'm a bit curious about your description of that "last rasp swipe" damaging the terminal Papillae and its effect on ability to regrow adequate sole. Also your comment about hooves that get the sole callous trimmed away, how is it then that the "sole callous" returns when done according to your preferred NB methods?

If the damage prevents the regrowth of the sole callous because of more "traditional AFA methods", then what miracle happens to regenerate these damaged papillae? I am NOT arguing here - just trying to figure out the process.

Also wouldn't the terminal papillae sustain an equal amount of damage via excessive compression from an overly burdened sole callous? Or do you think that a sole callous never becomes excessive?

smitty88

12-16-2006, 12:29 PM

so Tom S and Rick ,Ronald,and Jaye
when is it good to shoe the NB way and when not

you all know the type of fit i try to do
we dont have alot of NB shoers over here

so its confusing when you go about your every day work
doing Prim-fit or the way they have done it for years

what is the right formula
i have started to use more side clips on the fronts

to bring the toe back
but not all of the clients like it

i use clips on 99% of the horses i do
i know you cant shoe every horse one way

or is this a question that canot be answered

caballus

12-16-2006, 01:26 PM

just like the barefooters, showing nothing but pictures of bad shoeing but this time isolating CJF work

I always was of the impression that a CJF was cream of the crop ... but I guess not. Guess it really depends on ... WHO is the CJF or WHO the Farrier is or WHO the trimmer is ... the work is done not by the entitlement but by the human behind the titles ....

--Gwen (now retreating back to the other forums)

smitty88

12-16-2006, 02:31 PM

I always was of the impression that a CJF was cream of the crop ... but I guess not. Guess it really depends on ... WHO is the CJF or WHO the Farrier is or WHO the trimmer is ... the work is done not by the entitlement but by the human behind the titles ....

--Gwen (now retreating back to the other forums)

Gwen if your heart is not in the job all the letters behind you
is nothing

most of us have done exams of one sort or another
but when monday comes around you have to produce

the goods get out there keep the client happy keep horses
going

i know some farriers that a qualified exams the lot
but just bang them on

to prove yourself as a wordy farrier you have to do your time
i mean not just your 4 years sit exam pass your not half way

there yet
you have to gain respect from lots of people in the horse world

to do that you have to be consistent in all areas of the job
willing to try new things

always willing to learn
then you find more people wanthing your services

for the work your doing not because they cant get anybody else
because your good at what you do

Tom Stovall, CJF

12-16-2006, 03:05 PM

smitty88 in Gray

so Tom S and Rick ,Ronald,and Jaye
when is it good to shoe the NB way and when not

Smitty, I don't know that it's ever "good" to shoe a horse the NB way - or any other way in which use is not the primary consideration.

Most successful farriers shoeing speed/performance horses (flat racers, jumpers, rodeo horses, field hunters, cow horses, cutters, reiners, etc.) over here strive for biomechanical efficiency in the individual, they don't try to fit 'em into anybody's box.

Those who shoe rail horses (western pleasure, dressage horses, show hunters, foot wavers, etc.) try to set them up to best enable them to meet a subjective ideal particular to the discipline in which the horse is engaged.

Our in-hand classes are called "halter classes" and if there's a hell, there must be a special place in there for halter horse breeders because they've damn near bred the feet off our most popular breed, American Quarter Horses. I can state with authority based on experience that folks shoeing QH halter horses seldom pull a toe clip in the middle of the toe. [Extra credit: Why?]

To make the cheese a bit more binding, over here, it's pretty common to have different horses within a breed engaged in activities so different that they require extremely different shoeing protocols. For example, an Arab cutter would be set up differently than would an Arab English horse; and both would be set up differently than an Arab flat racer - but they're all Arabians.

or is this a question that canot be answered

Like most stuff regarding farriery, there are few absolutes and the best answer I can offer is, "it depends." :)