Digital Navicular Rads

[Forgewizard]

Here are radiographs of a horse with navicular I have been shoeing since '97 open for discussion...

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/4NYmGbdP82ed/__sr_/e31e.jpg?ph4tScFBOGCyxScl (http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/4NYmGbdP82ed/__sr_/e31e.jpg?ph4tScFBOGCyxScl)

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/4NYmGbdP82ed/__sr_/1bee.jpg?ph4tScFBnxzodh54

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/4NYmGbdP82ed/__sr_/2c5b.jpg?ph4tScFBZg0N_.Mw

[Forgewizard]

And more...

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/4NYmGbdP82ed/__sr_/396c.jpg?ph4tScFBjtvhgsCL

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/4NYmGbdP82ed/__sr_/bfd8.jpg?ph4tScFB66PzqY8Q

[T.N. Trosin]

Just a question
Was the second image in the first post shot with the foot on a block?

[Forgewizard]

yes, I believe so. I wasn't present at time rads were done.

[calshoer]

Yuck. Ugly. :eek: Along with the obvious serious bone degeneration, the impar ligament, DDFT intersection attachment on P3 is probably also trash. If I were doing it he would be in full EDSS, and probably the hard all porpose plate instead of the regular frog pad, with only the back inch or so portion of the frog lightly contacting the plate, no IM, just soft sole pack.
What are their plans for him ? Just a retired family member ?
Patty

[Gary_Miller]

Kim
Being a new farrier I've not seen many x-rays so I'm not really sure what I'm looking at that shows problems. Could you mark them up showing the problem areas with a discription of what we are seeing.

Thanks
Gary

[Forgewizard]

Patty,

Owner gave me original dig. rads taken in '96 I'll be taking pix and downloading them too. But surprisingly there isn't a whole lot of change since then.

Horse history, from original vet, relates that horse was radio-graphically Confirmed with navicular changes at 2 years of age!

His owners continued his barrel racing and when he couldn't win anymore the vet acquired him (in lieu of payment - some trade huh?)

Vet gave horse to current owner with a prognosis of 18 mos left. That was in '96.

Horse is still alive and ridden once or twice a week, with an occasional weekend trail ride.

Currently shod with St Croix Ultra lite and 3 degree wedge pads and Epona hoof pack. Shod behind St Croix lites.

[tbloomer]

Very nice nail line Kim. :D

Good on ya for keeping him going.

[calshoer]

Owner gave me original dig. rads taken in '96 I'll be taking pix and downloading them too. But surprisingly there isn't a whole lot of change since then.

Horse history, from original vet, relates that horse was radio-graphically Confirmed with navicular changes at 2 years of age!

His owners continued his barrel racing and when he couldn't win anymore the vet acquired him (in lieu of payment - some trade huh?)

Vet gave horse to current owner with a prognosis of 18 mos left. That was in '96.I cant believe they went ahead and barrel raced him at all ..that must be one tough horse . And...well maybe... the farrier for the last 9 years has something to do with his longevity..... :)
Patty

[Forgewizard]

Patty,

Yeah this horse is one tough competitive horse. I cannot fathom a person just using up a horse and then discarding it like this horse's first owners. Apparently he was good enough to keep him going for the first several years of his life. He's got a good owner now. We've definitely run through all kinds of shoeing methods.

Reading some of Dr. Deb's info on navicular, I'm wondering if Joe was one of those horses born with a very porous navicular bone?

Actually one of our online discussions last year got me to compare some previous pix with his hooves, some regression was noted and this resulted in a change of his shoeing!

At around that same time a new boarder entered the herd and began harassing this horse.

Moving him to another field was not an option because that was a low, wet field. New boarder's owner only relayed how her horse always bothered other horses. So to "level the playing field" this horse got hind shoes! ;) Boarder's horse quickly had his harassment ideas rearranged and this horse got the added benefit of supportive hind shoes!

What was noticed with being shod all around was a definite change in his stance and movement. His stance while still obviously navicular evened out.
He also was more willing to move out. Owner noted having to hold him back while on rides!

Regards,
Kim

[SlowShoe]

I swear that navic bone was smiling at me. In one rad it looks like a big chunk is simply missing from the navicular bone. Ouch! Good job keeping him going. Pay no attention to bloomer he's just one of them pre-Madonna's :D

[tbloomer]

Pay no attention to bloomer he's just one of them pre-Madonna's :D
. . . humor from a post-Madonna?




:p

[junkyardog]

Kim,
Is Joe on Bute or any supp's? Just curious about the big picture. My guy's DDFT is about 50% detached on the RF and 30% on LF. Ultrasound 2.5 years ago.
Doing extremely well now. No bute, no pain, no lameness, and obviously no riding...
The key for us was finding a farrier who shod the hind feet with wedge pads also. Brought his pelvis underneath him, improved his top line a bit and helped him move off his hind end.
In-hand work (as tolerated) also very helpful in maintaining muscle and suppleness.
He is pastured alone with his goat friend so he doesn't need to run from any more herd bullies.
Hock injections 2x in 2.5 years rounds out the present treatment protocol for now.
After years of trying many different shoes and pads my buddy is finally comfortable in his retirement.

Shoes and pads cost me about $165 a month. We never go longer than 30 days inbetween shoes. The supps run about $50 and hock injections, well I'd rather not say...
But i love him and my 21 year old retired trail/endurance/driving companion is certainly worth it.
I guess i've babbled on long enough and I just wanted to say that treating the whole horse was what worked for us.

Good luck with Joe!

[Forgewizard]

JYD,

Joe 's owner gives him herbal meds-white willow bark for pain, burdock root for circulation, yucca for joint repair. & pain, devils claw too. Stretching, massage therapy, free roam 24/7 in a grass rolling hill pasture.

also topical applications of lavender oil on days he seems stiffer than others.

His owner is a message therapist (human) and she regularly works out the "Crystallizations" as she calls them in his heel and fetlock areas. I have felt them on him too and think they are lactic acid deposits.

Joe gets tattled on by the other boarders and I get updates when he has been observed bucking, running and playing herd boss or show off for the "girls".

He gets done every 4 weeks.

Joe is now 24!

[junkyardog]

Farriers like you are hard to come by...Joe and his mom are very lucky. There are alot of us horseowners out there who struggle for a long time trying to find someone who will continue to work with the horse until they find what works. And still keep an open mind as the horse grows older and more changes occur. I wish I could ride my horse but vet advised against even a bareback backyard walk b/c of the tendons. I was told that riding would enflame area and hasten the damage and the rf ddft might detach completly.

Do you think Joe is better off being ridden (he's obviously enjoying it!) or do you worry that it is placing more stress on ddft?
Don't mean to pin you down on this...but I guess I am!

I want to clarify that I my reason for asking is because I would still like to ride my horse. I realize that each situation is unique but am encouraged by Joe's condition at 24.
Perhaps I should have phrased my question like this: "what is your opinion on riding these types of "severe" navicular horses?
Thanx!

[Ronald Aalders]

His owner is a message therapist (human) and she regularly works out the "Crystallizations" as she calls them in his heel and fetlock areas.

I love that one! In the future I'll refer to arthritis as "crystallizations" too! :D


Ronald Aalders

[Forgewizard]

JYD posts: I want to clarify that I my reason for asking is because I would still like to ride my horse. I realize that each situation is unique but am encouraged by Joe's condition at 24.
Perhaps I should have phrased my question like this: "what is your opinion on riding these types of "severe" navicular horses?

Actually in Joe's case because he has such a competitive nature, I do believe he is better off with the riding he gets. WHile his owner is in no way petite, and a fairly novice to intermediate rider, we have made certain his tack fits well and she is a stickler for checking his feet as well as the other "holistic" care packages she gives him, he seems to be quite happy to go for rides.

The areas she rides are mostly slowly rolling grassy pastures, and dirt roads, so there is no major concussion or wicked sidehills for him to travel over.

She will ride him by herself and on weekends manages to go out with a couple of other riders. The feedback I get from them and her is that they are so amazed Joe doesn't act at all like he has a problem.

Of course as a farrier, I am not surprised they don't see his movement as compromised and protective. He'll never move as free and easy as a normal horse - he physically cannot. You can feel the rigidity/arthritis in his hoof joints when you try to manipulate the hoof. But she certainly never has to gig him down the trail, she has to hold him back instead and he keeps coming to her when its time to go for another ride!

To me those are signs of a horse willing to do what's asked.

Personally I tell my clients to keep their horses as active as they can. Let them be couch potatoes and their joint problems get worse. Regular mild exercise is GOOD for horses! Inside and out!

Common horse sense prevails with any horse having joint problems.

[Complete Equine]

I also would love to see some of the things that you guys are discussing pointed out with photo shop if anyone has time! Thanks!