How to find the ideal breakover point?

[Madeira1]

I am just wondering (sort of related to a current shoeing problem that I posted about here), what are the various ways of determining the ideal breakover point for a particular horse? I read the natural balance tutorial and see that it recommends the edge of the sole callus. What are the other ways? And do they all correspond to the same point? And what point (say, in relationship to the coffin bone) would that be on x-rays?

I think the farrier I just switched to uses a measured distance (3/4") from the apex of the frog. In any case, my horse has been slightly off in front since this shoeing and I think that part (or maybe all?) of the problem may be that the breakover point is too far forward, at least for her. I am thinking that maybe an arbitrary measure like this won't work for all horses.

Thank you.

[calshoer]

3/4" forward of the apex of the frog would not be too far forward in most horse feet. Most natural breakover points are anyehere from 3/4 to 1-1/8" forward of the apex on an undistorted (stretched ) frog. However it MAY be too far back, if the foot is real large like a size 3 or up.
I would suspect if the horse is a bit sore after the shoeing that there is something else wrong ,like too much foot/ sole trimmed off somewhere, sole pressure, a close nail etc. All it takes is a tiny fraction of an inch error sometimes to make a difference in results. Patty

[Madeira1]

Patty, if you have a chance to read my (long) thread in the Navicular section I would appreciate it. The farrier came back yesterday and tested for sole pressure. He also takes off very little sole, and you could see when he used the hoof testers that there was flaky dead sole there (this is three weeks after the original shoeing). However horse is still not right, takes weird steps and jabs toes into the ground. I posted a lot of photos on the other thread.

Thank you!

[GreyMare]

This is an interesting thread for me too. I did have long toe/low heel farrier and the last 3 times have used a different farrier that is bringing my mare's heels back underneath her.
He recently trimmed the heels down some more to bring them further back (I think that's right). In doing so I also noted that he didn't trim her toes back much at all. He said you can't do both at the same time.
So it appears once we get her heels where they need to be, then we can work at shortening her toes.
Currently she is trimmed with about 1-1/4" forward of the apex of the frog. I generally prefer her to have 3/4 to 1" forward.
I know that once I start riding her again (she's recovering from an injury) that we will have a better idea where she prefers her breakover as a result of wearing down.
Am I on track with this regarding what the farrier is trying to do?
Thanks,
Sania

[Ronald Aalders]

When dealing with low heeled horses, the thing you want to do to try and prevent stuctural damage to the foot is to ease breakover. At the same time creating a situation where the foot has best chances to grow healthy heel.

There is no use at all to leave heels that can not carry the weight anyway because they're not trimmed back towards the heels enough. Apparently that's exactly what the shoer worked on. The toe may need a trim in such cases, but in some cases you do not need to trim the toe! Your shoer may well be right here!

Getting a low heeled horse into a better shape is NOT just a matter of trimming the toe! The heels usually are way to low to be able to compensate for it by just trimming the toe. If you'ld try that your nippers would kind of reshape the coffing bone. That's not good! What the shoer needs to do is try and allow the foot to generate more healthy heel.

Maybe it helps if you think about shortening the toe in an other way. Obviously a toe is shortened by reducing the length of the hoofwall. But from a bio-mechanical point of view, you can also shorten the toe by just bringing breakover (determined by the front part of the shoe) back towards the frog. In such cases the toe may well stick out in front of the shoe. If you're faced with a low heeled horse often you don't have any other option than to reduce breakover this way.

It sounds like your shoer knows what he/she is doing.

To maybe help you understand a little better, I added a drawing published in the American Farriers Journal, made by Chris Gregory. Note how without shortening the toe the bio-mechanical angle of breakover changed dramatically.


Ronald Aalders

[Gary Hill]

Since the subject is talking about addressing breakover. How does everyone feel about Dr. Roth's article in the AFJ? He really rips into backing up a foot! Talks about how ugly a hoof looks? I feel as long as you get the results the horse needs, then who cares how it looks! The history of horseshoeing has lots of weird looking shoes, some worked I'm sure where others might not have. So goes the life of a Farrier! Just wondering how everyone else feels about his article? Thanks, Gary

[Donnie Walker]

Reminds me of someone else's kid throwing a temper tantrum over another's toy. I just move where I can't see or hear the little feller and thank the lord he's not mine.

[redd2001]

could someone explain a little on the breakover. I have always seen the shoe
fit almost even with the front hoof wall. How is it determined a low heel the 52-55 degree angle of hoof or am i speaking incorrectly. sorry if this is a beginner question askin to learn :confused:
redd