Does wedging increases forces on the heel

[fairweatherforge]

I was in a discussion in another forum. The question is does wedging a foot on an underrun heel increase forces on the heel? If so, how and why.

[Gary Hill]

Well Eric, you're the CJF, what do you think?

[SlowShoe]

Well Eric, you're the CFJ what do you think?

Whats a CFJ Garry?



:D

[smitty88]

does it matter if he is a CJF or CFJ he asked a question

[fairweatherforge]

Well Eric, you're the CFJ what do you think?

Gary, not sure what being a cjf has to do with understanding physics?

I believe it does increase force to the heel. Tendon tension and laxity will increase/decrease the force, but unless the heel was floating in the first place it will take force to raise it.

Rick Burten is the man I was having this discussion with. I believe he was saying that on a foot with an underrun heel, if it is correctly trimmed and a shoe/wedge properly fit, force at the heel will not increase. The force that was already there will be more properly distributed. Correct me if i'm wrong Rick.

That said, we apparently both agreed that the foot needs to be trimmed to its proper dimensions. And then hpa needs to be alligned.

Just trying to understand the physics behind it. Figured someone on this forum could better explain it.

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Eric,

The equine foot is a very balanced structure. With balanced I'm trying to say that each and every part of that structure has a task. And all tasks are important enough to see the entire stucture collapsing when just one of them fails.

When we stick to your question on wedging we better first have a look at what happens with feet that have low heels and need wedging.

When a foot has a low heel the Hoof Pastern Axis breaks backward. If we look at the (biomechanical) center of the coffin joint we're looking at the distal end of P2, the short pastern bone. Somewhere in the middle of that distal end of P2 is the spot around which the coffin bone rotates. I think it's undisputed that all joint surfaces, tendons, ligaments and other structures in the foot only function efficiently when the HPA is straight.

When the HPA is straight you'll find that the ground surface of the foot -starting at the tip of the coffin bone, (the spot where the "mustang roll" and Ovnicek's preferred breakover start) and ending at the heels- is centered around that middle of the coffin joint or Center Of Articulation.

When the foot is not centered around that COA but as in a low heeled case has a 60% or 70% in front of that spot and only 40% or even 30% behind it, all kind of problems start. From navicular strain, to stifle problems caused by the inevitable dorsi flexion of the back with that much foot in front of the COA and a whole lot of problems in between.

One of those problems is that as long as the horse is not sore because of that low heel and that much foot in front of the COA, the low heel will force it to over excersice the carpus when moving. When doing so the heel will hit the ground first. With a low heel this is not really a problem for the heel itself, it can handle it. Would that heel be higher, chances are heel tubules will crush.

Would we add a wedge on that kind of foot, without addressing the amount of foot in front of the COA, we would increase the slamming of those heels on the ground increasing chances on those heels being crushed or otherwise damaged.

This is why raising heels in order to restore a straight HPA MUST always be accompanied with a type of trimming or shoeing that will effectively center the foot around the COA. When we do that wedging does not increase pressure on the heels.

So in answer to your question, does wedging increase forces on the heels? Yes, it does when we just apply wedges on a low heeled foot and do not address recentering the foot around the COA.

By the way there is a whole lot more to be said about wedging. If only I knew what it was :D



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Lets look at it another way. For example lets take Bowkers study on toe or heel first landing. Bowker had found that a toe first landing causes incorrect cuncussion into the coffin joint and partially dislocates P2 (subluxation). One of the reasons for a horse to land toe first is caudle heel pain. I have added wedges along with passive frog support like impression material or equipak and have been able to get them to land flat or slight heel first landing with very good results. I would think if force was increased on sore heels it would be noticable in how the horse moves. It depends on how the horse is moveing. I have had bad results adding wedges to underrun heels some as extreme as abcessing in the heel bulbs. If a horse has underrun heels and is landing properly (landing flat or slight heel first) then you may not want to add wedges no matter how the pasturn angle is. I think it is important to observe how they move first. Useing a video camera so that you can slow it down helps a lot.

[Rick Burten]

Rick Burten is the man I was having this discussion with. I believe he was saying that on a foot with an underrun heel, if it is correctly trimmed and a shoe/wedge properly fit, force at the heel will not increase. The force that was already there will be more properly distributed. Correct me if i'm wrong Rick.
Nope, thats basically correct.

You've elsewhere stated the following:

1."Yes, bringing the heels back let the foot function properly.
Yes, raising with a wedge realligns hpa.
Yes, you have relocated the force appropriately, which is exactley why it will take more force to raise the angle to achieve hpa."

2."imo, there are two types of underrun heels. Extra tension on the sft, or a low heel improperly trimmed letting the heel migrate forward......Tendon tension is a key component to underrun heels. Specifically, superficial flexor tendon. A tight sft will raise the pastern angle. This shift in weight distribution, although it will not raise the heels off the ground, will distribute enough weight off the heels that they get long and underrun between shoeing cycles."

3. " know what your saying about prep. But as far as forces are concerned prep has nothing to do with it. Before the wedge is applied ground forces are evenly spread throughout the entire foot. Once the wedge is applied you have just increased forces in that area. The same holds true for a bar shoe."

4. I said "
Please discribe the mechanism by which the toe gets pulled forward. And low heels are not necessarily 'Crushed" heels."

to which you responded:

"I believe its called a toe lever. If the lever is too long, over time the wall will seperate from the coffin bone. The heels don't necessarily crush, as shown by the rise in the coronary band in the quarters. I think I'm right on the subject. How can you talk about wedges and underrun heels if you don't understand how they happen in the first place?"

5. "If you pull the toe forward the foot will narrow at the widest part. After which the quarters will start to flare."

6. "If the toe has migrated forward its ability to bear weight will be decreased. In other words, the further forward the toe, the quicker distortion will happen."

7. I said: "Please describe this mechanism in terms of the phases of stride and then, stance." To which you responded:

'It has nothing to do with stride. If you trim the toe so that it isn't touching the ground, you haven't decreased vertical depth. But have put more load on the toe quarters. If the toe quarters get distorted enough, due to the extra weight. The foot will lose vertical depth."

8."If a foot has an underrun heel, the heel just needs to be trimmed back. If its trimmed back it can no longer be underrun. "

These I think were some of the salient points of the discussion, and are, I believe, good and relevant ones. I hope this starts a really informative and lively discussion, with a lot of input from those who have a better Physics background than I.

I apologize to Eric if I have left out any of the relevant points of our discussion and I hope he will add them as necessary.

Rick

[Ronald Aalders]

It is my belief that a toe first lander that also subluxates the coffin joint is a horse with a broken back HPA that over time got sore and manages to overrule the biomechanical heel first landing a low heel generates.

I can not see how a toe first lander can subluxate it's coffin bone when the HPA is straight.

The way a horse lands it's feet is the result of a heap of forces and phenomena. Even when a horse lands in a way that may be considered good, this does not mean the horse has no problems that need addressing.

For my self I rely more on straight HPA's and equally spaced joint surfaces than the way a horse lands.

Phil, I never had any problems using wedges, underrun or not. Remember that underrun heels ideally should not be underrun anymore after trimming. The folded part of the heels need to be removed. They're useless to the horse and more important they're useless to us too :D

Those trimmed and obviously very short heels that you're left with after removing the crushed part of the heels usually is in need of a wedge to help restore a straight HPA.

But when you use wedges shoe placement is critical. Like with any style of shoeing the center of the shoe should be the center of the foot. If we shoe for soundness. Center the shoe around the COA. If you fail to do that wedges will only make matters worse.



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

I was asked to shoe this horse last week. Vet found the horse is heel sore and heels are contracted and underrun. The Vet wants more support and shoeing fit full in the heels. I watched the horse move and he lands toe first at the walk and trot. X-Rays are clean and he is not showing signs of pain useing hoof testers however his movement is off. This is a pretty neat job because of the team work involved with Vet, trainer, rider and myself. Was fun to do.

Here are the feet before shoeing.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0145.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0147.jpg

Here is how I shod the horse. Hard to see how full I fit but they are fit pretty full, safed and boxed. I also use a rim pad and filled the bottom of the shoe with Equipack for protection and support. The Equipak does not go to the ground level in the toe. Observed the horse after shoeing and he now lands flat. I am not totaly happy with his hoof/pasturn angle and was tempted to wedge him up. However I am glad I didnt at least not this time. Was able to get a flat landing without wedgeing. Wedgeing him might have caused too much cuncussion in his heels.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0151.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0152.jpg

[Phil Armitage]

Ron, contracted heels and atrophyed frog can creat an illusion to what is balanced and symetrical. Distorted hoof capsule can also creat problems visualiseing posistion of P3 and hoof/pasturn angle. Radiographs is probably a good idea.

[Ronald Aalders]

I rest my case.

Please understand me correctly here, I'm not telling you you did wrong I'm just trying to explain why the things you notice happen here. In fact I'm impressed with your eagerness to get input on your work.

Phil forget about heel or toe landing. I really feel you're hooked up on that way too much. The horse posted needed wedging, but also needed ease of breakover a lot more than you provided here.

Look at the pastern, see how straight it is? This is a zero angled PA at best. Also try and visualize the center of the coffin joint. In this case at least 60% of the foot is in front of that center. If you want to stay away from wedges fine, but then you should have reduced breakover a whole lot more than you did. An NB shoe and placement according to their instructions would have helped the horse a lot here even without wedges. And probably with a aggressive reduction of the breakover lever and wedges you would not have needed the cover up provided by the Equipack here.

There are not many domesticated horses in the world that can do with a perimeter fit Phil. The ones that seem to be able to you better check for presence of a club foot. One of the reasons a perimeter fit does not work is that shoes reduce natural wear of the foot. Since the horn tubules in every normal foot are slanted the forces on those horn tubules increase dramatically with every tiny bit the foot grows. And we shoe horses for the long run, not to make them look pretty when the customer hands you your check.

By the way, did you rim pad the horse and poured in hoofpack?



Ronald Aalders

[Andrew Grimm]

The horse posted needed wedging, but also needed ease of breakover a lot more than you provided here.


Ronald Aalders

Ron,
Have you ever shod a horse like this pictured and made him worse by wedging?
Isn't it possible that there may be some other malady somewhere else that caused the broken back HPA? Depending on what the malady is then maybe wedging would make that horse worse. What do you think?


Andrew Grimm

[Phil Armitage]

Just for the record Ron, this is not a horse I shoe on a regular basis and I had detailed instructions of what the Vet wanted. I see what your talking about and saw that the day I did him. I also mentioned this to the trainer and thought the breakover needs to come back further and add wedges. The shoe size and full fit in the heels almost gets the foot to a 50/50, however I am not happy with it. He did land much better and showed significant comfort after this shoeing. It could be this support and protection depth in foot by adding a rim pad and equipak is makeing this horse more comfortable to land heel first and this can change the H/P alignment. If I had added wedges and the horse started to land hard heel first then what? Good point to the use of EDSS. I think how the foot lands is important and as a horse gains proper landing and comfort it can quickly land to hard heel first the reason for changeing the rails on an EDSS shoe. This horse landed flat right after the shoeing so I do not think it would have taken long for a harder heel first landing. Bowker has done a great job explaining the effects of a toe first landing. I will take new pics at the next shoeing to see if there are any changes to the H/P alignment after this horse lands correctly for awhile. I think there will be. If those heels were not contracted I think the ratio between the back half and front half of the foot would look better. As I said contracted heels and narrow frogs can present a problem when evaluating balance. Time will tell and I believe in makeing slow changes over time.

[Phil Armitage]

Ron,
Have you ever shod a horse like this pictured and made him worse by wedging?
Isn't it possible that there may be some other malady somewhere else that caused the broken back HPA? Depending on what the malady is then maybe wedging would make that horse worse. What do you think?


Andrew Grimm

Excellent point Andrew, I think it is possible to do more harm with wedeing depending on the reasons for a broken back HPA. The reason for EDSS and use of removable rails is because thing can change very quickly depending on the reason for toe first landing. Once the back half of the foot is more comfortble and proper landing is achieved engageing the frog and back half of the foot again. The HP alignment can improve and if the wedgeing cannot be removed in a timely manner the process of sore heels can return because of increased cuncussion to the heels from hard heel first landing. This is the advantage to useing EDSS and rails. Changes can be made with removeing the shoe. Reshoeing the horse in short periods of time is not practicle and very hard on the horn if you nailing shoes on. So one needs to come up with a good evaluation process and plan that keeps the health of the feet in mind and how changes can be managed with ease.

[Phil Armitage]

One more thing, "Breakover". Look at the dorsal wall of the foot I provided pictures. Not any dishing going on, if anything there seems to be more of convexed distortion in the dorsal wall. This tells me the tip of P3 is not to far behind the toe and proper breakover can be achieved pretty easy without haveing to set the shoe too far back. Break over is not an issue on this foot. I agree P3 is probably at a negative angle, this might be due to subluxation of P2. All this might come back into place with proper landing.

[Andrew Grimm]

Phil,
Out of curiousity; what type of x ray's were taken?


Andrew Grimm

[Ronald Aalders]

I don't think I've been explicit enough here.

Guys there is no way a broken back HPA will cure itself just by improving (?) the way a horse lands.

The fact that the hoofcapsule is strong enough to withstand all forces trying to distort it does not mean you need not address those forces.

Guys, as long as the lamillar bond is intact the toe is ALWAYS close to the toe of the hoofcapsule. A grossly subluxated coffin joint can still have it's toe close to the toe of the hoofcapsule but that does not mean the angle of P3 is anywhere near normal!

Feet that are distorted need help. Just claiming that a foot would look better with the shoeing presented when it was a normal undistorted foot is .... uhm....well.... uhm, not right!

A coffin bone does not have a negative PA because the joint is subluxated! The joint subluxates because the coffin bone has too low a PA!! Likewise a HPA does not break backwards and forces the heels down guys............

No foot can create any illusion as long as you stick to anatomy. Take X rays if you need to. A hoofwall is plastic, as long as the radiological HPA is correct the foot has best chances on regrowing as good as the horses genetics allow it.

Breakover should be related to the position of the coffin bone NOT the hoofcapsule.

I can think of a WHOLE LOT of reasons including maladies that would cause a broken back HPA. That's why you need to address that! If you're suggesting pathology would indicate not to use wedges you tell me in what kind of case that would be better.


Ronald Aalders

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

fairweatherforge in gray, deletia

Re: Does wedging increases forces on the heel

I believe it does increase force to the heel. Tendon tension and laxity will increase/decrease the force, but unless the heel was floating in the first place it will take force to raise it.

Short answer: Wedging can change the types and directions of forces acting on the heel.

In basic structure, the hoof is a spring-mounted cone, filled with fluids, that's strong in front and weak in the back. When the hoof impacts the ground, mass, orientation, configuration, fluid content, viscosity, elasticity, and balance of the various structures that comprise the hoof determine how force (actually, "forces") affect the heel at impact. In a normal foot, the growth orientation of the strands of keratinized epithelial cells that comprise the wall is away from the central axis; i.e., lateral to the frog. Not surprisingly, in a normal foot, forces generated at impact cause the hoof to expand (elongate), primarily along a central axis, from front to back, and only minimally laterally.

When the heels are underrun, (i.e., when some portion of the wall at the heel describes a convex arc), then the orientation of the growth of the fibers that comprise the wall at the heel becomes medial, towards the frog, and some of the forces that would normally be directed linearally are instead directed laterally (away from the central axis), toward that portion of the wall weakened by disorientation, which, in turn, causes a self-perpetuating pathological condition in which the foot's mechanism for dealing with forces is disrupted because forces that would normally be directed along the central axis are acting on the wall at its weakest point.

I realize it sounds like you asked me what time it was and I'm responding by telling you how to build a watch, but what I'm building up to is this: New growth follows old. Thus, any attempt to "fix" underrun heels by wedging is doomed to failure unless one first removes all of the aberrant growth before applying the wedges. Bear in mind that one can make the horse as sore as a bygod if one gets carried away with removing the aberrant wall, causing a frog that was just along for the ride to suddenly become the primary posterior weight bearing structure. Whacking and wedging should be done with the idea in mind of returning the weight-bearing properties of the foot to whatever would be "normal" for that foot (by replacing the "bad" wall with artificial wall, oriented normally), not with redistributing the weight bearing characteristics of the hoof capsule to some utopian ideal.

As always, YMMV and "It depends" is damn close to being the universal solvent. :)

[smitty88]

I rest my case.

Please understand me correctly here, I'm not telling you you did wrong I'm just trying to explain why the things you notice happen here. In fact I'm impressed with your eagerness to get input on your work.

Phil forget about heel or toe landing. I really feel you're hooked up on that way too much. The horse posted needed wedging, but also needed ease of breakover a lot more than you provided here.

Look at the pastern, see how straight it is? This is a zero angled PA at best. Also try and visualize the center of the coffin joint. In this case at least 60% of the foot is in front of that center. If you want to stay away from wedges fine, but then you should have reduced breakover a whole lot more than you did. An NB shoe and placement according to their instructions would have helped the horse a lot here even without wedges. And probably with a aggressive reduction of the breakover lever and wedges you would not have needed the cover up provided by the Equipack here.

There are not many domesticated horses in the world that can do with a perimeter fit Phil. The ones that seem to be able to you better check for presence of a club foot. One of the reasons a perimeter fit does not work is that shoes reduce natural wear of the foot. Since the horn tubules in every normal foot are slanted the forces on those horn tubules increase dramatically with every tiny bit the foot grows. And we shoe horses for the long run, not to make them look pretty when the customer hands you your check.

By the way, did you rim pad the horse and poured in hoofpack?



Ronald Aalders

Ronald where would you fitted that toe in relation to break over?

[Rick Burten]

Ron,
Isn't it possible that there may be some other malady somewhere else that caused the broken back HPA? Depending on what the malady is then maybe wedging would make that horse worse.
What might those maladies be? Why would wedging then make the horse worse?

Rick

[Gary Hill]

Great discussion and reasoning. Ron's and Tom' points stand out in that the outside of the foot what we deal with alot of times has opposite results inside. One case a few years ago had a really severe underrun heels and WLD on top. The "angles" outside were so differant than what x-rays showed. The owner demanded wedges againest my thoughts but owners usually get what they want one way or another. Another shoer shod the horse and it went lame. I was at the Vet clinic and he showed me the new x-rays and the wedges actually pushed P2 up and out of alinement. Pulled the wedges and horse sounded up. Feet still look to the eye like they did before but the horse is sound and running. Best, Gary

[Rick Burten]

My reaction to the question of where to set the breakover/heel support is that I ould have considered really hard, using the EDSS and moving the breakover back to just infront of where the second nail exits the hoof wall in the 'after' photo, and would have probably set the heels to end at a point where a line dropped from the bulbs intersected the ground. Or, I might well have considered using the Aalders-Redden inspired planton shoe. :) I think Chiquita might be a player here. The question is, would I used a flat or a wedged Chiquita?. either way, I would have added that same additional soft support to the foot.

Rick

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
Out of curiousity; what type of x ray's were taken?


Andrew Grimm

I have not seen the X-Rays. The only thing I was told is the joints are clean, no signes of navicular changes. I can probably get them E-mailed to me.

[Bill Adams]

I would have put the breakover back more as Phil said he would have done too. Thanks for posting your work and sticking your neck out Phil.
Great stuff from all
thanks Bill

[Jaye Perry]

I would have put the breakover back more as Phil said he would have done too. Thanks for posting your work and sticking your neck out Phil.
Great stuff from all
thanks Bill
Why didn't Phil put the breakover in the right position any ways?
In a situation with a lame horse, do as needed be. The script may call for this or that; shoe the damn horse Phil a the hell with a script.
Your lack of ***** shows you just placated the AFA script protocol( shoe to a prescription , to hell if it is good for the horse or not) you so disdain in other threads. Your fence sitting is tiresome.

BTW, if you want to play, look at the heel lengths in the 2nd photo of the solar shot. Look at the lateral. Your therorizing doesn't go with your application(s) dude. Is that trauma from last few shoeings, did you bring that up to the owner and or vet via the phone?

Damn....

[Phil Armitage]

Why didn't Phil put the breakover in the right position any ways?

Define right posistion? Useing whoe's principles NB, Ducket or yours? :rolleyes:

In a situation with a lame horse, do as needed be. The script may call for this or that; shoe the damn horse Phil a the hell with a script.
Your lack of ***** shows you just placated the AFA script protocol( shoe to a prescription , to hell if it is good for the horse or not) you so disdain in other threads. Your fence sitting is tiresome.

Horse walked off better than it walked up to me. The Vet complimented me for doing exactly what he wanted. The trainer is happy with my professionalsim and working as a team. I did mention raiseing the angle and increaseing the breakover and that we should do this soon.

BTW, if you want to play, look at the heel lengths in the 2nd photo of the solar shot. Look at the lateral. Your therorizing doesn't go with your application(s) dude. Is that trauma from last few shoeings, did you bring that up to the owner and or vet via the phone?

Damn....

What are you talking about the red playdoe residue? :D

Have another drink bro. :D

Damn Jaye it really shows when you have been dipping into the Jamesons. Take care of your body better you might shoe longer.

[Phil Armitage]

I would have put the breakover back more as Phil said he would have done too. Thanks for posting your work and sticking your neck out Phil.
Great stuff from all
thanks Bill

Thanks Bill, this is what it is all about. I don't mind shareing pictures of my work and recieveing feedback. Your right it is great stuff.

[Ronald Aalders]

Phil mentioned in post #14 he felt his shoeing supported the horse almost 50/50. I'm not a 100% sure what Phil feels is a 50/50 support in a foot, but he sure is way off. And since I know the majority of shoers make the same mistake but don't have Phil's guts to stick their necks out, I did some drawing on Phil's picture, hopefully explaining things a little further.

The 50/50 rule has to do with centering your support surface around the center of the coffin bone. 50% in front of the middle of the coffin bone, 50% behind it. I for one like to take this a little step further. I feel that since a coffin bone not only supports in a static way, but also in a dynamic way, the 50/50 relation should be considered starting at the center of articulation, not the middle of the coffin bone.

But even if we were to refer to the center of the coffin bone as a reference point for our 50/50 rule, Phil's shoe placement is not even close to being in 50/50 relation the the center of the coffin bone.

There is a trick I explained before on these boards that enables a shoer to find the COA in a foot without X rays. Have a look at http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535

Following that explanation we can establish the COA in Phil's foot too. If we do we'll notice that the support of the foot when measured from the COA is not an almost 50/50 relation as Phil suggest but roughly a 65/35 relation (look at the green horizontal line in the pic). Support holding the short end of the stick here (pun intended). This is not the support we're looking for.

My preferred support would be like illustrated with the thick horizontal blue line. This also answers Smitty's question where I would place breakover. Well, something like it because there's no way I would leave this horse without wedges.



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Thanks Ron.

To answer your question about where I got 50/50. I measured from the widest part of the foot/junction of the bars aprox. 3/4" behind the apex of the frog and used that as the center of the foot about where your red line is. I also understood Ducket's dot to be the center of shoe placement. Which would be about the same location. After looking at the measurements you provided I would say I am way off. Probably due to the distortion in the foot and frog. Would be interesting to get the radiographs of this foot and see.

Question, do you always set the shoe 50/50 on the COA?

[Ronald Aalders]

Question, do you always set the shoe 50/50 on the COA?


Yes Sir, I sure do. Well, as much as my craftmanship allows me that is. The only exception would be the hinds of a reiner I guess, I shoe a lot of reiners..............



Ronald Aalders

[reillyshoe]

Since I have actually measured the answer... YES, wedging does increase the force on the heels. Unless the shoe in question (or wedge) is in the form of an Aluminum wedge egg bar shoe, in which case the force on the heels does NOT increase.
At least that is the answer in my limited, unpublished, not yet peer reviewed study. Take it for what it is worth,
Pat Reilly

[Andrew Grimm]

What might those maladies be? Why would wedging then make the horse worse?

Rick


Rick,
Ringbone, bad ankles, bone spurs, bone chips (?). I don't know. I'm just not convinced that in all situations that wedging a horse with a broken back H/P axis is the answer. I'm still studying my anatomy. Right now all I have is Dogma, 5yrs experience, and working with many other farriers to know that a wedge isn't always the answer, and dosn't always cure a lame horse. This is why I asked Ron A. "what do you think?".


Andrew Grimm

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

reillyshoe in gray, deletia

Since I have actually measured the answer... YES, wedging does increase the force on the heels. Unless the shoe in question (or wedge) is in the form of an Aluminum wedge egg bar shoe, in which case the force on the heels does NOT increase.

How, where, which, and by what means, were the forces acting on the heel measured? :)

[reillyshoe]

With a force measuring membrane, positioned between the shoe and the foot. An open heel shoe was elavuated, and then rails of various height attached. The shoe was replaced with an egg bar shoe, and then wedges screwed in place. The data was collected both at my clinic and at Tufts university within the last year, and the data grouping is still too small. I am actively looking for research dollars to continue. Live horses were evaluated on hard footing. Peak forces on the foot were lower at the heel in open shoe testing compared to wedges, although the center of pressure moved laterally and towards the toe when wedged. In bar shoe comparisons, neither change occurred.

[Phil Armitage]

Here is a club foot that I did wedge. Put the markers in as Ron did. Could have set the breakover back more on this one also I quess.

Takes longer to put those lines in than it does to shoe a horse. :)

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0034-1.jpg

[Rick Burten]

Pat,
how were the forces measured on on unshod, underrun hoof, and were they measured on a shod hoof where the heels of the shoe ended at the butress of the underrun heels? Was any measurment done with a flat shoe that had the heels extended to where they would be if they were not run under? Was this also done after the feet had been trimmed but not shod, and then shod but not wedged? Was breakover location a consideration? Were the forces measured while the horse was standing? Moving? If moving, at which gaits and on what type of surface(s)? Were the rails full web width rails? what material was used to fabricate them? Were they short, abrupt elevations, or longer tapered elevations? IOW, did the entire web of the shoe continue to contact the ground at all times?

Thanks,

rick

[Ronald Aalders]

Like Rick said what we need to look at in this measuring heel force is, if so, whén did those forces increase? Just when landing? In a static loaded position?

Pat's remark that an eggbar shoe did not increase heel forces would be contrary to what physics tell me. Looking at the mechanics of that kind of shoe you'd expect heelforces to increase here.

Interesting this.


Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

Here is a club foot that I did wedge. Put the markers in as Ron did. Could have set the breakover back more on this one also I quess.

Takes longer to put those lines in than it does to shoe a horse.


You clearly mastered the theory behind it all.

But if in this case you could have dropped the heels a bit more you would have found that this shoe position is pretty ok. It's just that the heels are still a tad high.

On a club kind of foot its a lot easier to get the shoe in a correct position under the foot. It's the low heeled ones that can be a pain.

By the way I strongly feel that on distorted feet like a club or a low heeled long toed kind of foot ANY breakover lever should be avoided. That's why I like the banana shoe so much. But you guys already knew that right? :D

Let's salute anyone that goes banana's!



Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

With a force measuring membrane, positioned between the shoe and the foot. ......... Live horses were evaluated on hard footing. Peak forces on the foot were lower at the heel in open shoe testing compared to wedges, although the center of pressure moved laterally and towards the toe when wedged. In bar shoe comparisons, neither change occurred.
A some what "comparative" study/ presentation was done at AAEP 1991:
Locomotor Effects on Hoof Angles and Mediolateral Balance...; Balch, Ratzlaff,Hyde and White. pp687-705.

Thanks for some new info Pat. No Jameson's used in this reply:rolleyes:

[Phil Armitage]

No Jameson's used in this reply:rolleyes:

Good on ya bro. :D

[fairweatherforge]

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0145.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0147.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0151.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0152.jpg[/QUOTE]

From these pics, I would say its impossible to say whether or not this horse should be wedged.

Seeing the underrun heels and the straight pastern, I would immediately look at the knee. Was this horse over at the knee? Most likely he was. Lowering the heel and leaving the hpa misalligned is sometimes the only way to allow the knee to lock out.

[Jaye Perry]

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0151.jpg
[QUOTE]
Most likely he was. Lowering the heel and leaving the hpa misalligned is sometimes the only way to allow the knee to lock out.
In the lateral shot the area at the extensor process is bulging. Hence, coffin joint is inflamed. Wedge should have been applied, meds and if ecom= permitted injection.
When the joint and the circu-mference of the coronary is inf lammed a slight wedge is called for in the interim until proper assessment is made. Open your eyes and put your hands on some sound coronaries and coffin joints, then state you methodologies and protocols.
Jameson approved.:rolleyes:

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye look at area of extensor process in the picture of the foot before the shoes are put on. Not bulgeing like it is with shoes and frog support. Why do you suppose that is? I think I know, Patty has mentioned it before in past discussion about frog support. Talked to the trainer today, this horse is moveing great. Not lame at all.

[fairweatherforge]

In the lateral shot the area at the extensor process is bulging. Hence, coffin joint is inflamed. Wedge should have been applied, meds and if ecom= permitted injection.
When the joint and the circu-mference of the coronary is inf lammed a slight wedge is called for in the interim until proper assessment is made. Open your eyes and put your hands on some sound coronaries and coffin joints, then state you methodologies and protocols.
Jameson approved.:rolleyes:

ahhh Dr. Jaye at it again. Maybe proper assessment should be made before shoeing. You might need to keep your hands in your pockets while someone trained to assess assesses. Wedges and meds just off of Phils pic. Good job!

[Jaye Perry]

ahhh Dr. Jaye at it again. Maybe proper assessment should be made before shoeing. You might need to keep your hands in your pockets while someone trained to assess assesses. Wedges and meds just off of Phils pic. Good job!Your Welcome rookie!:rolleyes:

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye you killed this thread. :confused:

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye you killed this thread. :confused:
So What? Theroy vs. Experience, who killed the thread?
Shoe what is presented to ya with all the facts---- you didn't have all the facts; X-Rays.

Ad Homieum with out all the facts is entertainment; I am guilty.

[Ronald Aalders]

I did shoe what was presented to me and the horse is doing better than before.



Uhm Phil, since when is a horse that "does better" necessarily shod better too?



Ronald Aalders

[fairweatherforge]

[QUOTE=Jaye Perry]So What? Theroy vs. Experience, who killed the thread?
Shoe what is presented to ya with all the facts---- you didn't have all the facts; X-Rays.

You've already stated that the horse had inflammation of the coffin joint. Now you say if you have x-rays you have the facts. You start to lose us rookies when you speak like this. Are you saying anytime there is bulging at the coronary there is inflammation of the coffin joint? It needs to be injected? Are you confirming this inflammation with x-rays? Are you saying that with your experience you can make a shoeing prescription off a pic showing only the pastern down?

[Phil Armitage]

Uhm Phil, since when is a horse that "does better" necessarily shod better too?



Ronald Aalders

Never said that Ron, however he is moveing better. If I had wedged him up even after I have been asked not to and he went lame then what? Jaye keeps saying I did this shoeing without the facts even after I explained the situation. The shoeing prescription was determined by a Vet, who used X-rays and took to time to check him over and watch him move. I respect that decision. If the Vet asked me to use bannana shoe I would. I can tell you many farriers in my area who refuse to use bannana shoes, glue on or egg bar shoes. I know guys who refuse to use NB shoes. Put a bunch of farriers and vets in front of a horse and you will get many ideas of what each person thinks is right. I think horses make us look good and can make us look bad. Some horses can tolerate anything some cannot go sound even with the ideal trim and shoeing protocal.

[Ronald Aalders]

Well you could have at least reduced breakover here Phil. Even without wedges that would have helped the horse some. But I see what you mean sometimes vets are just too smart for the horse's good.

It still is your job to try and explain the vet that he has other options. You need to clarify exactly what is going on in that digit, simply because not too many vets know about it. This one clearly did not, or he would never have told you not to use wedges.

And there are a lot of ways to make a horse happy. But you have to pick one that works. Don't get stuck behind a protocol just because there are more ways to help out a horse.

Think the situation through from every angle (a little pun intended) and decide on the pro's and con's of every protocol that you can think of. Talk to the vet and trainer and come up with a shoeing that covers most of that input. That is you job Phil!


Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

And about the inflamed coffin joint Jaye suggested, since guessing is allowed, my bet would be that the bulging has to do with the extensor process pinching the dorsal distal end of P2..................


Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

And about the inflamed coffin joint Jaye suggested, since guessing is allowed, my bet would be that the bulging has to do with the extensor process pinching the dorsal distal end of P2..................


Ronald AaldersThere is no guessing Ron; just going by what was posted, see:


Trauma in red : corn, undecided toe/heel placements and so forth due to pain

Yellow is the contracted heel(s) and heel quarters. If one trims to a certain protocol the trim to the widest part of the frog is no good, frog and heels are STILL to narrow for a base of support.
Over trimming is called for here and then wedge the foot back usuing a soft wedge pad due to traumatized portions of the foot and to re-alignment of HPA.

All that was shod here was the traumatized heels and feet, mechanics are still wrong.

[Jaye Perry]

Lateral shot for Eric:

Red indicates swelling to extensor process area and navicular bursa area.

Yellow is a suggestion of a dorsiflexed coffin bone, thus pinching of distal dorsal pinching(Ron) of the short pastern

Blue and white is indication of conveluted quarters that are indicative of horn pinching the proximal portion of the coffin joint, in which the annular or ligamnets of the navicular. Thus with this configuration inflammation/fluid is produced in and around the coffin joint.

Solid Blue lines are the heels that need to be over trimmed and wedged back up.

A picture reveals everything, just have to LOOK . See enough of these maladies and one can come up with solutions that are not noted in books or magazines.:rolleyes:

[Phil Armitage]

There is no guessing Ron; just going by what was posted, see:


Trauma in red : corn, undecided toe/heel placements and so forth due to pain

Yellow is the contracted heel(s) and heel quarters. If one trims to a certain protocol the trim to the widest part of the frog is no good, frog and heels are STILL to narrow for a base of support.
Over trimming is called for here and then wedge the foot back usuing a soft wedge pad due to traumatized portions of the foot and to re-alignment of HPA.

All that was shod here was the traumatized heels and feet, mechanics are still wrong.


The Vet also notice the trauma to the foot and contracted heels and frog.

Would not over trim a foot that has no depth to start with.

Used a wide web shoe, fit very full in the heels, deeply seated with rim pad and equipack with copper.

Agree on setting shoe back more, however this needs to be done without increaseing sole pressure. Probably a good reason for useing NB shoes, designed to be set back for proper contact in the toe qaurter and avoid sole pressure.

Agree on proper alignment of H/P by wedgeing and use of frog support pad & impression material or equipak as I did.

You did not answer Rons question on the bulgeing in the area of the Extensor process. In addition to Ron's question you did not answer my question as to why the bulge is not present in the photo before shoes and equipack.

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye, here is the shot before the shoes are put on. I am currious as to why the bulge does not appear here?

Also all the cunclusions you made on the amount of trauma in this horses foot, I would think the poor **** would be a grade 5 lame. He isnt even a grade 1 lame. Your sounding like these folks that say a horse is pre-navicular. I think soundness and signes of lameness are still important observational tools. I can post pics of horse with obvious limps and high grade lameness that have great H/P alingement, no signes of trauma in the bottom of the foot or hair line. So your half cocked observation based on a photo on the forum is not very impressive.

Here is the picture again. Please explain why the bulgeing is not present here.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0145.jpg

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage

The Vet also notice the trauma to the foot and contracted heels and frog.
Hmmmmmm, you didn't?








Would not over trim a foot that has no depth to start with.

Used a wide web shoe, fit very full in the heels, deeply seated with rim pad and equipack with copper.


You needed to, you would have known that one could over trimm the heels if you had Looked at the X-Rays, but methodology overrides fact:rolleyes:
You might have fit the shoes full but gave no posterior support, mechanical error



Agree on setting shoe back more, however this needs to be done without increaseing sole pressure. Probably a good reason for useing NB shoes, designed to be set back for proper contact in the toe qaurter and avoid sole pressure.
?????, doing what is right by the horse is what we do, no placating vets



Agree on proper alignment of H/P by wedgeing and use of frog support pad & impression material or equipak as I did.

Not proper HPA with your application, you did it half assed to placate




You did not answer Rons question
on the bulgeing in the area of the Extensor process. In addition to Ron's question you did not answer my question as to why the bulge is not present in the photo before shoes and equipack
.
I did answer the question, you didn't look at the next reply. The bulge and swelling is there.

[reillyshoe]

Jaye, Ron,
I find myself agreeing with Phil on this one. Almost every foot I see exhibits some degree of pathology. Does this horse have underrun heels? Absolutely, although to assume that is a cause of the problem is a bit presumptuous (one study found 77% of sound horses to have an underrun foot). I am sure many sound horses exhibit effusion of the coffin joint. I am also sure that many sound horses have bruising on their soles (for one reason or another). Even if it a result of pure **** luck (no offense Phil), or coincidence, the end result is the horse has improved- and isn't that the point? I have yet to see evidence pointing to exactly why this horse is lame. If the answer is a suspensory desmitis, couldn't one argue that raising the angle would be counter productive? as might easing the breakover?

[Ronald Aalders]

So Pat are you saying you may as well not ease breakover or raise heels on such horses?

That's a new concept all together! But if you don't mind I'll stick to fixing horses.



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye, Ron,
Even if it a result of pure **** luck (no offense Phil), or coincidence, the end result is the horse has improved- and isn't that the point? I have yet to see evidence pointing to exactly why this horse is lame. If the answer is a suspensory desmitis, couldn't one argue that raising the angle would be counter productive? as might easing the breakover?

None taken, :D . I often wonder if most of the time on my part it is just pure **** luck. I don't consider that a bad thing. I am also the type that makes sure my hammer handle faces the heel, I knock on wood, don't want to jinx myself if I notice nobody lost a shoe by the end of week, by saying "hey I hardly got a call". I probably just jinxed myself just to make a point, the things I do for you guys. :eek:

Anyways thank you and I appreciate the added comments, those are great points to take into consideration and even though I did not get a chance to talk to the Vet personaly he probably did take all those things into consideration he made my job easy by knowing what he wanted. I do not consider cooperating with the Vet and Trainer as placateing. I see it as team work, and it was appreciated by all.

[Phil Armitage]

So Pat are you saying you may as well not ease breakover or raise heels on such horses?

That's a new concept all together! But if you don't mind I'll stick to fixing horses.



Ronald Aalders

Ronald that is not a new concept to all. I can't tell you how often I have been warned by veteran farriers to be carefull about wedgeing and breakover. It may be a new concept to you, but not to all. I still like Gene Ovynecks lecture on what is proper hoof landing and to take that into consideration in determineing increaseing the angle. I also think if your going to set shoes back you need to consider the same things Gene has with NB principles and his efforts and hard work determineing things like width web, seating it out, shape of toe corners, proper trimming of the bottom of the foot. You can reshape factory shoes, however they are punched and best for parameter fit and the width of stock is not enough. Another thing to consider is Sigafooses work, the glue on shoe. I have put a few on, not enough to call myself an expert yet however enough to look into it further. The rim pad is wide and thick, I have glued them on very short feet, grade 3-4 lameness the day I put them on nothing to nail to, I consider myself a very good nailer but these two have nothing. Next day horses are running around like they never had a problem. Now I had my worries about the huge distance from the ground and no frog support and the what we consider to be good breakover is not great. However 6-8 weeks later, no signes of problems. Put on new glueons and horses are still doing great. So this adds more food for thought when thinking about the mechanics of the foot. Once these two horses had protection and were pain free they ran better than anyone has seen them run. How much is mechanic and how much is jut protection. What a lot of the trimmers consider a healthy foot fall way out of what you consider proper form and function. So I am not to sure what you and Jaye consider correct is correct.

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Pat one more thing about this horse. You know me pretty well, I am not always the cooperative sort when it has come to working with the Vet. and I have no problem doing my owne thing.

The temptation to wedge this horse and set those shoes way back was so strong it is not funny. However the day I finished this horse, the horse was trailered back to the Vet and the Vet checked the shoeing over and said this is exactly what he wanted. I was still at the barn when the trainer returned and she was smileing ear to ear about how happy she was to see great team work on this horse. I did say that I thought the horse needs to be wedged up and the toe brought back even more. She didnt smile about that, and the impression I got was not to push it. We need to be carefull about what we say, things we say may seem like purely communications on our part. However the other party could take something like a suggestion as a critique as a disagreement with the Vet. I am trying my best to creat good working relationships with Vets, Trainers, owners, and other farriers. It is not easy.

[Phil Armitage]

So Pat are you saying you may as well not ease breakover or raise heels on such horses?

That's a new concept all together! But if you don't mind I'll stick to fixing horses.



Ronald Aalders

Man if that ain't a know all, all seeing and condensending attitude and comment I don't know what is. This is definately an unhealthy way to look at problems. Ron this would be like saying all horses need bannana shoes. I can tell you not too many feet fit the parameters you mentioned on this thread without them. Personaly bannana shoes are still a radical idea in my mind. We talk about the importance of a flat foot and flat shoe so often a key component to soundness. Jaye throws it out there like it is a simple anwer and that is the only thing needed when trimming and shoeing. Yet I looked at the work he did on appasionato and it is not flat, grant it the foot is back under the limb, naileing looks very week, foot still looks very week. Personaly I would have gone with Sigafoos series I glueons on that job. No bannana, no breakover, no wedgeing just a flat foot and flat shoe, with that nice rim pad and added strength and protection. JMHO

[Rick Burten]

Jaye, here is the shot before the shoes are put on. I am currious as to why the bulge does not appear here?
I too see the bulge. it is much more faint but it is there. My take is that after the shoes and soft packing were applied and there was some re-orientation of p2 and p3, causing fluid buildup due to any inflammation, especially around the extensor process, to displace upwards. since we know that fluids don't compress, the avenue of least resistance was upwards against the skin which does have the ability to distort, especially under pressure.

However, I'm not so convinced that the swelling at the back of the hoof is solely related to navicular bursitis.
Also all the cunclusions you made on the amount of trauma in this horses foot, I would think the poor **** would be a grade 5 lame. He isnt even a grade 1 lame.
We've all seen horses with this and more bruising that have been sound. The BUA would say its because the feet are numb. :eek: I think it may be because like people, some horses, especially older ones, are more stoic than others, or the affected areas are far enough resolved so that they aren't bothering the horse, quien sabe? What if the inflammation was creating enough edema to impinge on the nerves?
Your sounding like these folks that say a horse is pre-navicular.
In the same manner as any woman who is fertile but not pregnant could be said to be pre-pregnant, can a horse who is not confirmed NS/ND, be considered pre-navicular?
I think soundness and signes of lameness are still important observational tools. I can post pics of horse with obvious limps and high grade lameness that have great H/P alingement, no signes of trauma in the bottom of the foot or hair line. So your half cocked observation based on a photo on the forum is not very impressive.
When given lemons, one tries to make lemonade. :)

All the indicators of problems are there. An absence of indicators does not imply that problems are not there. But in the presence of indictors, one relies on one's experience(s) to form an initial set of observations and conclusions. Sometimes one is pleasantly suprised to find the initial conclusions were in error. This too adds to the base of knowledge and often leads to a conclusion of "It Depends", the next time around.

In this instance, when presented with the prescription, I would most likely have called the attending vet and discussed the prescription and some options. Had the vet still insisted on the original Rx, then my choices would have been reduced to two:. Do it or recuse myself.

Rick

[reillyshoe]

So Pat are you saying you may as well not ease breakover or raise heels on such horses?


Ronald Aalders

Ron (or Jaye),
Since Phil has not provided any information as to WHY this horse is lame, the best shoe choice for addressing the lameness is any one's guess.
Maybe this horse has no pain in the foot. It is possible that the coffin joint and low heels have nothing to do with either the lameness or the recovery.

Let's say the vet blocked the foot and found no improvement in the lameness, and an U/S revealed a lesion on the SDF (pain confirmed by a high 4 point block), would that affect your decision to wedge? (wedging has been shown to increase the strain on the SDF (Denoix, Thompson)).

Isn't that crucial information before we evaluate the shoeing? In the absence of that information, isn't it all a guessing game? If the horse did improve, I think the job might be appropriate.

[Phil Armitage]

Ron (or Jaye),
Since Phil has not provided any information as to WHY this horse is lame, the best shoe choice for addressing the lameness is any one's guess.
Maybe this horse has no pain in the foot. It is possible that the coffin joint and low heels have nothing to do with either the lameness or the recovery.

Let's say the vet blocked the foot and found no improvement in the lameness, and an U/S revealed a lesion on the SDF (pain confirmed by a high 4 point block), would that affect your decision to wedge? (wedging has been shown to increase the strain on the SDF (Denoix, Thompson)).

Isn't that crucial information before we evaluate the shoeing? In the absence of that information, isn't it all a guessing game?

I was told there is no lameness in the feet and also told the radiographs show no signes of problems. I have not seen the radiographs. I am In the process of getting them so I can see them and post them here. The Vets instructions to the trainer was to not change much in shoeing except to fit wider and longer in the heels. I added the rim pad and equipak because of the lack of depth and obvious trauma in the sole. Yes Jaye I noticed the trauma in the sole and hoof wall. I did trim the heels down to the live sole plane. Going past the live sole plane in my view is not a good practice, especially when they lack depth in the first place. The plan is to reevaluate this horse very soon after this shoeing. The reason I posted this case is to the original question as to wedgeing increaseing forces on the heel. Reduceing the pull of the DDFT can increase forces on the heels, increaseing breakover and wedgeing both reduce the pull of the DDFT. Now this can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the problem. If the conditions like Pat mentioned exist then I think reduceing the pull of the DDFT is counter productive at this point. I don't know. As Patt mentioned it is a quessing game.

I did have the trainer lunge the horse in soft footing at a walk and trot and also lead the horse at a walk and trot on hard surface. This horse landed toe first, after shoeing the way I did he landed flat. It took a few minutes for the horse to feel the difference in protection. I still think this is an important part of mechanics and observation when figureing out a shoeing protocal. Things could change over time and require a change in shoeing.

By the way this is a great discussion and I think all the different points of view and ideas are excellent.

[Ronald Aalders]

Ron this would be like saying all horses need bannana shoes.

Where did I suggest to you the use of banana shoes in this case? I noticed before that other people make a lot bigger deal out of banana shoes then I ever did.

Banana's are a tool. So are wedges and square toes. So?

This case in my opinion definetely needs wedges and ease of breakover. This is not a matter of knowing all. I wished I did know all!

If others have an other opinion, no skin of my back! Have fun guys!


Ronald Aalders

[fairweatherforge]

Lateral shot for Eric:

Red indicates swelling to extensor process area and navicular bursa area.

Yellow is a suggestion of a dorsiflexed coffin bone, thus pinching of distal dorsal pinching(Ron) of the short pastern

Blue and white is indication of conveluted quarters that are indicative of horn pinching the proximal portion of the coffin joint, in which the annular or ligamnets of the navicular. Thus with this configuration inflammation/fluid is produced in and around the coffin joint.

Solid Blue lines are the heels that need to be over trimmed and wedged back up.

A picture reveals everything, just have to LOOK . See enough of these maladies and one can come up with solutions that are not noted in books or magazines.:rolleyes:

Jaye- Thank You. Very informative. Very easy to understand.

[Jaye Perry]

reillyshoe
I find myself agreeing with Phil on this one. Almost every foot I see exhibits some degree of pathology
Agree, each foot has "some degree of correction" needed. Whether sound or un-sound. The argument is that if "one' doesn't ac***alate and see all pertinate facts to shoe a horse that is in Theraputic need, the lame may surpresses for a time but will rear it's ugly head later.
I call it a "Duh" moment.


. Does this horse have underrun heels? Absolutely, although to assume that is a cause of the problem is a bit presumptuous (one study found 77% of sound horses to have an underrun foot). Not presumptuous, but from expeirence seeing the heel(s) configurations. Pinched or orcadian heels create inflammation that snow***** or ac***ulates.




I am sure many sound horses exhibit effusion of the coffin joint. I am also sure that many sound horses have bruising on their soles (for one reason or another).
Yes they do, but the exibition of bruising in my experience is 4-12 weeks old in the making.




Even if it a result of pure **** luck (no offense Phil), or coincidence, the end result is the horse has improved- and isn't that the point?Improvement is a plus, but the argument is that Phil didn't examine the Rads to get the full gest of the situation. To insure proper placement of the shoes, pads or not and HPA situation proper planning is needed. The plan or plans have to be derived from all facts, the fact he didn't look at the Rads for himself but assumed is the difference of being "better" rather than "sound" .

Here are a couple pics of one today, do the heels look familiar in comparison to the horse posted.

[Jaye Perry]

Here is the RF. I over trimmed past the widest part of the frog on the medial side to enlarge the base support of the heels. Took the picture for comparasion inside heel versus outside heel. Didn't paint this one to clutter the pic.

[Jaye Perry]

Here is the shoe and foot. Note the heels off the shoe.

The shoe was a 3 degree Aluminum Triumph with a Spider plate. The space at the heels are filled with Equithane when the foot is poured, thus creating a "Soft" heels to load on.
What has to be determined is the "real t break point of the feet" after over trimming or trimming to the "real heel" of the feet.

Also note Puffy coronary in the quarters, sunk at the extensor process.

[Jaye Perry]

The note the Bow Legged conformation behind:

[Jaye Perry]

reillyshoe

Let's say the vet blocked the foot and found no improvement in the lameness, and an U/S revealed a lesion on the SDF (pain confirmed by a high 4 point block), would that affect your decision to wedge? (wedging has been shown to increase the strain on the SDF (Denoix, Thompson)).


Not really. With a lesion, hole, black spot in a suspensory confirmed by ultra sound the horse is stall bound and barefoot . Dependant upon size and severity.
With the onset of closure of the lesion, beginning the back to work protocol; a new foot protocol has to explored. Hypothetically of course:D

[Rick Burten]

Here is the RF. I over trimmed past the widest part of the frog on the medial side to enlarge the base support of the heels.
Jaye,

Considering the foot in question, I don't call what you did , 'overtrimming" To me, its what I do on a routine basis when faced with feet like these.

Same goes for the way he is shod(well, I might not have used a spider plate, but that's neither her nor there). I have a definate tendencey to fit the shoe back at the heels (along with setting the breakover where I think it is appropriate). I might have used a flat shoe and a three degree frog prosthesis bar wedge, but thats a matter of subjectivity. Looking at what you have done, I feel that were I to come in after you to work on the horse, I would have no problem figuring out what you did and why, and then replicating it.

Rick

[Jaye Perry]

Rick Burten

Considering the foot in question, I don't call what you did , 'overtrimming" To me, its what I do on a routine basis when faced with feet like these.


Glad we are in the same boat. Some methodologies stop trimming at the widest point of the frog; that is why I state over timming.

Same goes for the way he is shod(well, I might not have used a spider plate, but that's neither her nor there). I have a definate tendencey to fit the shoe back at the heels (along with setting the breakover where I think it is appropriate). I might have used a flat shoe and a three degree frog prosthesis bar wedge, but thats a matter of subjectivity.
I used the plate to spread the load over the "whole" solar portion of the feet, exception of the heels of course. These types of heels, if spread to fast due to dynamic or static "applied" frog pressure go sore soon after. Express Expansion of contracted and accordion heels leads to pinching in the toe coronary region. In the case the frog was atrophied and sick.




Looking at what you have done, I feel that were I to come in after you to work on the horse, I would have no problem figuring out what you did and why, and then replicating it.
Thanks.

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye- Thank You. Very informative. Very easy to understand.
Good. Your welcome

[reillyshoe]

Not really. With a lesion, hole, black spot in a suspensory confirmed by ultra sound the horse is stall bound and barefoot . Dependant upon size and severity.
With the onset of closure of the lesion, beginning the back to work protocol; a new foot protocol has to explored. Hypothetically of course:D

Well, while you say "not really", it is a different answer from "wedge and move the breakover back". I'll take it as a yes. What dou you think Ron? If the horse had a SDF, would you still wedge the foot and move the breakover back?

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye on the work you posted did you only base your decisions on just your observations of trauma to the external portions of the feet or did you also have more information based on seeing radiographs, ultrasound, blocks, MRI or syntigraphy? ;)

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye did you only base your decisions on just your observations of trauma to the external portions of the feet or did you also have more information based on seeing radiographs, ultrasound, blocks, MRI or syntigrophy? ;)
The horse was 2 legged lame. Experience. If it was a puzzle I would have asked and gotten X-rays and would have looked and evaluated the rads "with" the vet.

The point is Phil and has been along; read and evaluate rads "with" the vet so there is no confusion on the internal working and purposed application(s). This cooperation gives farriers an opprotunity to see "more" Rads and the ability to assimulate both foot conformation(s), maladies and responses to problems.
See enough x-rays that go along with the feet presented needing theraputic protocols; over a period of time one can look at feet and legs with confidence and "see" what needs to accomplished.

[Jaye Perry]

reillyshoe-Well, while you say "not really", it is a different answer from "wedge and move the breakover back". I'll take it as a yes. What dou you think Ron? If the horse had a SDF, would you still wedge the foot and move the breakover back?

It is a yes.
Most imbalances in the feet can be palpated in the suspensory band. Try this, find a foot that has mediolateral imbalances, palpate the suspensory band. If sore, divide the palpation into medial and lateral proceedures. Increased pain response to the medila or lateral side of the band will indicate the side(medail/lateral) in which the foot is imbalanced.

Ad Homnieum, but it's a good indicator.

[Ronald Aalders]

Well, while you say "not really", it is a different answer from "wedge and move the breakover back". I'll take it as a yes. What dou you think Ron? If the horse had a SDF, would you still wedge the foot and move the breakover back?


I guess I missed out on where the SDFT came into play here. There's no way I can be made to believe the horse in question has a problem concerning it's digit bigger than the DDFT related issues that need addressing here.

Having said that in my practise I work towards a straight HPA. Period. I guess the only exceptions being horses that for some reason (arthritis, deformities) would clearly not be helped with a straight HPA.

The reason I focus on a straight HPA is that I am convinced that the equine digit can and will only function to it's genetically maximized potential when all structures in that digit function together in what I like to call 'a matrix' the foot really is.

By using wedges I will not try to achieve anything else -save for 'performance related' reasons- but to straighten out the HPA. As a site note here, it's interesting to see that the straight HPA once it's reached has a certain resistance against over wedging. A straight HPA can be jacked up further without really breaking it forward, not until a whole bunch of wedges are applied. But it's easy to lower heels and get the HPA to break backward.

So in case we're discussing SDFT's in stead of DDFT's, yes I would definitely use wedges in the case presented up to a straight HPA. In both cases I would reduce breakover a lot.

As to banana's, sofar I always stayed away from using banana's on SDFT related problems.

I know that Denoix feels SDFT trouble can be best worked on by using a shoe what I guess we would call a toeweight shoe. Very wide webbed in the toe, really narrow taper towards the branches. If I understand him correctly, he feels that by loading the DDFT (extended toe kind of shoe) the SDFT gets unloaded.

I doubt very much if that is true, at least not to the full extend Denoix suggests. My reasoning here would be that when a DDFT is cut mid cannon (a tenotomy) the toe does not flip up. But when a DDFT is severed at the navicular site (as we sometimes see in neurectomy cases) the toe does flip up. The reason this hyper extension effect only happens when the DDFT is cut at the navicular site is that both DDFT and SDFT are connected together by deep fascia right above the pastern. (Rooney and O'Grady, personal communication).

Denoix obviously has a point where he says straining of the DDFT reduces strain on the SDFT and v.v., but in my opnion only when we start from a straight HPA! And this relation only works to a certain extend. In my perception when joints in the equine digit flex or extend both tendon structures work together. So the DDFT clearly is a supporting structure to, likewise I can see where SDFT helps flex the foot as well.

Am I right? I dunno. But this here theory sure fits what I see in my practise.



Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

Let's say the vet blocked the foot and found no improvement in the lameness, and an U/S revealed a lesion on the SDF (pain confirmed by a high 4 point block), Reilly


I have to apologize Pat , I mis-read.
"SDF" Versus "SLD", the high 4 pt block threw me?:(
In most of my practice I rarely see SFDT problems in the front legs, but I see SFDT problems behind. Older Equatation horses.

When i an confronted with SDFt issues in the front legs usually it is trauma of some type.

[fairweatherforge]

sdf?

Sld?

[Jaye Perry]

sdf?

Sld?sdf- superfcial digital flexor

sld- suspensory ligament desmitis

[Phil Armitage]

Cut and pasted from Pat's original post, he meant suspensory desmitis. The SDF also through me off, however I kept thinking he meant the suspensory ligament.

Patt Rielly: "If the answer is a suspensory desmitis, couldn't one argue that raising the angle would be counter productive? as might easing the breakover?"



In addition to considering the suspensory ligament how about the impar ligament

Here is a good read and research intersection of the distal sesamoidean impar ligament and the deep flexor tendon.
http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/anatomyandfunction/bowker1/bowker1.htm

When I attended Dr. Moyers clinic, he commented a few times on how he did not favor frog support. I thought he felt the same way about wedgeing, but I do not recall what his thoughts were on that. I do recall him stateing how he felt injury to the impar ligament might be more common than we realize. This makes sense considering the location is at the point of cuncussion and excessive stresses to the foot. I would think the addition of things like frog support and/or wedgeing could increase trauma to damage in this area of the foot.

Another thing to consider as to the use of wedges and frog support is P3 fractures, side bone and ring bone.

Anyways just thought I would throw all this out there. I am also a believer in maintaining Hoof pastern alignment, however as many researchers have found there is a lot we do not know.

Another interesting tid bit is Mike Weldenstiens clinic I attended and his suggestions on how to shoe for support for the onset of soft tissue injurys and lack of support for after things calsify. So as Jaye has stated many times this would be another reason for getting all the facts by use of X-Rays.

I will state a realistice point of view. Most of the time we are not going to get X-Rays and the horse needs to be done on schedule. So I kind of resent some of the remarks made by Jaye and Ron about what consititute is doing a good job. This part of the discussion can be left out. Shareing our work online for discussion can be a great way to learn things. Howeve we need to keep in mind, we will not have all the facts, maybe a different set of eyes will point out more that can lead to gaining more information. However it is virtually impossible to get all the facts.

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage -

Cut and pasted from Pat's original post, he meant suspensory desmitis. The SDF also through me off, however I kept thinking he meant the suspensory ligament.

Patt Rielly: "If the answer is a suspensory desmitis, couldn't one argue that raising the angle would be counter productive? as might easing the breakover?"
I thought but, who knows.


In addition to considering the suspensory ligament how about the impar ligament have you researched beyond the "always pulled gun" of Bowker. What and how ligaments are madeup and work mechanically. What the influences of age do to ligaments and other soft tissues?


Here is a good read and research intersection of the distal sesamoidean impar ligament and the deep flexor tendon.
http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/anatomyandfunction/bowker1/bowker1.htm

Read and enjoy, but research beyond the stated therum, it will enlighten.




When I attended Dr. Moyers clinic, he commented a few times on how he did not favor frog support.Not in favor and adimently against are two different things. You take thing to literal;



I thought he felt the same way about wedgeing, but I do not recall what his thoughts were on that.Clairvoyant.:rolleyes:



I do recall him stateing how he felt injury to the impar ligament might be more common than we realize. This makes sense considering the location is at the point of cuncussion and excessive stresses to the foot. Could be, just like the Sacrum as noted by Dyson's report last year.





I would think the addition of things like frog support and/or wedgeing could increase trauma to damage in this area of the foot.Could be but proper diagnosis has to be noted.

Another thing to consider as to the use of wedges and frog support is P3 fractures, side bone and ring bone.Yeah, how many of these specific maladies have you worked on and been successful and how many have you worked and failed? Your numbers Phil, not from studies or clinics. Look at sidebone thread on this forum, one example of mine, wedge pads frog support and "Pulled back" to appropriate break point.

Anyways just thought I would throw all this out there. I am also a believer in maintaining Hoof pastern alignment, however as many researchers have found there is a lot we do not know.Why didn't you take time to go to the vet office and examine the rads in your afore posted horse; believer:rolleyes:

Another interesting tid bit is Mike Weldenstiens clinic I attended and his suggestions on how to shoe for support for the onset of soft tissue injurys and lack of support for after things calsify. So as Jaye has stated many times this would be another reason for getting all the facts by use of X-Rays.Finally your coming around to go and look at the aforementioned mentioned horse's x-rays.

I will state a realistice point of view.It is about time, your unrealistic view is confusing with your reality standpoints.




Most of the time we are not going to get X-Rays and the horse needs to be done on schedule.Two different things here Phil:
- Horse needs x-rays, lameness, medical necessity.
- Shoeing schedule, 1-3 days in a non lamintic situation is appropriate wait time to schedule Rads.





So I kind of resent some of the remarks made by Jaye and Ron about what consititute is doing a good job. This part of the discussion can be left out. Why? It is and still the point(s) of not having all the facts; your discretion of shoeing a lame horse without viewing x-rays shows a sense of not doing a thorough job; just a decent job.




Shareing our work online for discussion can be a great way to learn things. Howeve we need to keep in mind, we will not have all the facts, maybe a different set of eyes will point out more that can lead to gaining more information. However it is virtually impossible to get all the facts. So Jaye when you state us rookies fail to get all the facts, you my friend are being extremely judgmental and rude.Call me what you want- judgemental, rude, a-ss-h-ole, know it all, I don't care. You had the opportunity to view said horse's x-rays to "Gather more or All the Facts".
Don't reside in defending your point or side because of your inefficient so-called professional protocol(s). That shows me that you are now feeling guilty for not viewing the Rads--- Childess!



You have no clue of what others put into there work attempting to the best they can and gain all the information they can.Yes I do, been there done that. Stop feeling guilty and go and look at the rads you so conveniently and now regretably didn't read.




I for one would appreciate it if you left your judgmental comments about character off a public forum.Character? Didn't call you a ***** this time, just lazy.




If it continues then I will choose to not play, because I find it offensive and harmfull.OK, constructive criticism is not in play here. Close minded people always find it offensive when facts are brought to light.JMO

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye Perry: Call me what you want- judgemental, rude, a-ss-h-ole, know it all, I don't care. You had the opportunity to view said horse's x-rays to "Gather more or All the Facts".
Don't reside in defending your point or side because of your inefficient so-called professional protocol(s). That shows me that you are now feeling guilty for viewing the Rads--- Childess!

Case and point Jaye, I did not have the opportunity to look at the rads if I did I would have and I do plan on getting with the Vet and looking at them. I rearranged my schedule during a very buisy time to get this horse done as quick as possible. The horse was overdue, not lame when it was presented to me, the trainer had specific requirments per the Vet. The plan is to reevaluate in a few weeks after this shoeing. I am not being lazey, not feeling quilty and posted the pics for this discussion. Like I said from the start I would have preffered to wedge and reduce the toe length. It is not my protocal to defend, I do not have all the facts of what the Vet is thinking. I could have not posted anything, however this horse has underrun heels and the question was based on wedgeing underrun heels. I think it is a great question and concern. It seems the only one defending there protocal is you. Adding your experience is great, but can't you leave the personal insults and attacks out of the discussion? You told me once that you tend to **** off other farriers and I have heard this from other farriers. It is not what you say but how you say it. It is unfortunate that you take so much pride in being an A-hole, it is obvious that you have a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge to share, however your approach needs some tweeking and polishing.

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye Perry: OK, constructive criticism is not in play here. Close minded people always find it offensive when facts are brought to light.JMO

Who's facts Jaye yours??? I think at best you offered very good observations and I truely appreciate it. This give me more to discuss with Vet and trainer and I thank you for that.

I do not understand how you see me as close minded. This is one horse, one shoeing, with a vet and trainer involved.

You have made several suggestions as to what constitutes a good shoeing job that meets the bio-mechanics of the horse. However it seems to me you shoe every horse the same and based on what you think is right. Would that be considered closed minded?

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage
Case and point Jaye, I did not have the opportunity to look at the rads if I did I would have and I do plan on getting with the Vet and looking at them.

In any lameness situation where one is called to shoe the sound and make it better and or sound, time needs to be taken. Like i said for the exception of laminitis, a day or two later to ac-c-u-malte facts. The horse was over due anyway, what another day?





I rearranged my schedule during a very buisy time to get this horse done as quick as possible. The horse was overdue, not lame when it was presented to me, the trainer had specific requirments per the Vet.
You re-arranged for the horse'es benefit? Or hero benefit? Take this comment as you wish.




The plan is to reevaluate in a few weeks after this shoeing. I am not being lazey, not feeling quilty and posted the pics for this discussion. Like I said from the start I would have preffered to wedge and reduce the toe length. It is not my protocal to defend, I do not have all the facts of what the Vet is thinking.
If you were to have taken the "time" to evaluate the RADS with the vet, you wouldn't have to defend yourself here. That way all the facts presented in the rads, horses feet and thoughts from the vet and yourself could have proposed a better plan without second guessing- i.e. "I would have preferred"...



I could have not posted anything, however this horse has underrun heels and the question was based on wedgeing underrun heels. I think it is a great question and concern. It seems the only one defending there protocal is you
i am trying to defend you in the sense of not taking things for granted.


. Adding your experience is great, but can't you leave the personal insults and attacks out of the discussion? You told me once that you tend to **** off other farriers and I have heard this from other farriers. It is not what you say but how you say it. It is unfortunate that you take so much pride in being an A-hole, it is obvious that you have a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge to share, however your approach needs some tweeking and polishing.
I know one way, blunt and to the point. Don't like it,:rolleyes: turn the channel or don't read it.

[smitty88]

did you run out of the tablets Jaye

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage-Jaye Perry: OK, constructive criticism is not in play here. Close minded people always find it offensive when facts are brought to light.JMO

Who's facts Jaye yours??? I think at best you offered very good observations and I truely appreciate it. This give me more to discuss with Vet and trainer and I thank you for that.

Your welcome, but discussion after the fact when you could have discussed the rads and protocol in person with the vet could have,should have been done.




I do not understand how you see me as close minded. This is one horse, one shoeing, with a vet and trainer involved.
Why not? One horse leads to two and to three. You as a "team" member didn't do your job thoroughly; reading the rads with the vet, in person. "When one part of the "team" doesn't do their job to the best of their ability, the whole team suffers"-Lombardi



You have made several suggestions as to what constitutes a good shoeing job that meets the bio-mechanics of the horse. However it seems to me you shoe every horse the same and based on what you think is right. Would that be considered closed minded?

You have never seen me shoe a horse, even in New Hampshire, at your clinic you organized.
When you have observed enough lameness, observed enough X-Rays and have ventured out beyond the books, therums and clinics we can continue this diatribe.

[Jaye Perry]

did you run out of the tablets JayeNaw, just p-i-ssed that Phil took short cuts to shoe his pictured horse when rads were available to determine facts..

He saw more Rads in the presentation I gave than he has seen in his career. But he still relys on therum instead of fact. Just p-i-ssed that I wasted mine and the minions' time just for him :(

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye Perry: You have never seen me shoe a horse, even in New Hampshire, at your clinic you organized.
When you have observed enough lameness, observed enough X-Rays and have ventured out beyond the books, therums and clinics we can continue this diatribe.

Fair enough and I can also say the same to you. Even in NH when we shod that horse, you may have not nailed on the shoes, however you were involved in the end product. Not a bad shoeing job and the owner was pleased. I will tell you I talked to her last week and the horse is not sound. She is takeing the advice of her Vet, horse has too many issues up front and the hind end to do the level of work she wants to do. She gave this horse plenty of time off and tried different things. The Vet likes what I have done with the feet prior to the weekend you guys came up. She also likes the work that was done that weekend and found no fault in the farrier work.

Hopefully this discussion can get back on track and the original poster can get some usefull information on wedgeing underrun heels.

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage-Fair enough and I can also say the same to you. Even in NH when we shod that horse, you may have not nailed on the shoes, however you were involved in the end product. Not a bad shoeing job and the owner was pleased. I will tell you I talked to her last week and the horse is not sound. .....
should have gotten the ankle injected, that was the culprit per the X_RAYS!!!.






I do not wish to continue any diatribe with you. I only ask that when you repond on this forum that you do so in a civilised manner. I can see you passionate about your work, have a great understanding and experience however you were rude with people here in NH and you are also rude with folks on this forum. I am not totaly inoccent of not being rude, however I really do not take and pride and/or pleasure in conducting myself as an A-Hole actually it is shamefull.

Hopefully this discussion can get back on track and the original poster can get some usefull information on wedgeing underrun heels

Rude in New Hampshire, yes to the rental car people. To you and others i don't think so, I have witnesses.Ha!! The only one that was Rude was the convience store clerk checking I.D. on a 25 yearold woman. Also, Purves for puking on the Hotel's lawn.

You win, I concede, as always your the BEST diatriber on these forums!!! Hipp- Hipp- Horay!!!!

[smitty88]

Jaye just to change the subject how do you reply to threads
with out us seeing your name on the forum

its like you are invisible

[Jaye Perry]

You want facts Jaye since you drew first blood on this thread I will give them to you.

Cut off Grant Myre with your issue in your hand as he was talking to us on the first day and welcomeing us to his clinic. Rude

Disrespectfull comments to the waitress at the resteraunt we were at the first night, and also disrepectfull to the manager. My buddy was embarrsed because he eats there often and was the one that recommended the resteraunt to us. Rude.

Putting yourself in a situation where you were not 100% to do a good job presenting your power point presentation. Rude

I was not present to witness the situations with the rental car and carding when purchaseing beer, however after witnessing the other behaviors. I would assume there is two sides to these storys.

I do not think your use to someone calling you on your attitude and behavior and I also think your well prepaired to defend your behavior with a lot of practice.

You might have the young lads impressed but not me.

Take it for what you want I really do not care, however if you continue to be a school yard bully, I will continue to stand in your face.

I will say that I was pleasantly suprised how respectfull you were to me. Maybe because we were in person instead of the internet. :confused:

You win Phil, I said that.
I didn't even get into the horse presented at "your Clinic" in which "Your" shoes were nailed on. With previuos X-Rays.......

So if you still want to continue I will not oblige, but if you insist I will crawl into your a-ss up to your throat until your bleeding out your nose. Over that mess.

[Phil Armitage]

You win Phil, I said that.
I didn't even get into the horse presented at "your Clinic" in which "Your" shoes were nailed on. With previuos X-Rays.......

So if you still want to continue I will not oblige, but if you insist I will crawl into your a-ss up to your throat until your bleeding out your nose. Over that mess.

I insist, start crawlinig Jaye. I would love to hear what you have to say. Did I hit a nerve?

I will give you all the rope you want.

[Jaye Perry]

I insist, start crawlinig Jaye. I would love to hear what you have to say. Did I hit a nerve?
I will give you all the rope you want.
Yep you have, I am requesting from Baron and or Rick to ban me from These forums. You Win _HACK__:D ___ !!!!!

[smitty88]

you never said how you go in and out of these threads
with out seeing you Jaye

lighten up to its sunday your ment to relax
have a jemmy and i wil have one two

[Phil Armitage]

Yep you have, I am requesting from Baron and or Rick to ban me from These forums. You Win _HACK__:D ___ !!!!!

Awww, thats too bad. Don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out.

[Phil Armitage]

Deleted garbage

I didn't even get into the horse presented at "your Clinic" in which "Your" shoes were nailed on. With previuos X-Rays.......

Over that mess.

The feet are a mess, dummie. That is why the horse was brought for your opinion. The owner and I tried to point that out and were looking for you expertice. Instead of paying attention to what we were saying and the history provided you were pre-occupied in la la land.

[Ronald Aalders]

I really don't know where all this came from but as to wedging in this particular case I completely agree with Jaye. In fact I can not believe that Phil is looking for all kinds of far fetched (?) arguments not to use wedges or ease breakover.

Phil if you don't want to use wedges or ease breakover in this particular case fine. I sure as heck would! Apparently Jaye too. But if you don't want to, then don't. Don't make this fuss about it.



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

I really don't know where all this came from but as to wedging in this particular case I completely agree with Jaye. In fact I can not believe that Phil is looking for all kinds of far fetched (?) arguments not to use wedges or ease breakover.

Phil if you don't want to use wedges or ease breakover in this particular case fine. I sure as heck would! Apparently Jaye too. But if you don't want to, then don't. Don't make this fuss about it.



Ronald Aalders

Ronald it isnt that I do not want to wedge and reduce breakover, I maintain proper H/P alignment and breakover as the norm, you and Jaye are preaching to the choir and frankly becomeing very annoying. This particular case I did not. As to looking for reasons not to, I ask what is wrong with that? Even the best out there question many good protocals that have been used succesfully by some and not successfull by others. It is that saying "It depends".

As for the mess with Jaye, well ask him. He is the one that is rude and crude. Personaly I have had enough of his **** and am glad to see him disappear.

[Ronald Aalders]

Well if posts get annoying, its time to stop posting I guess.


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Well if posts get annoying, its time to stop posting I guess.


Ronald Aalders

Shareing ideas and information is one thing. Personal attacks to defend an opinion or idea is totaly out of line. I try to stick to the subject and not defend my ideas by attacking the person. After Jaye's constant attacks on me personaly he opened the door to a deeper discussion. I posted one shoeing job based on what I was asked to do related to the subject matter and it get personal. I still think it is the right thing to do at this time.

This does not mean I am against wedgeing and reduceing breakover and it also does not mean I do not get it as you suggested early on.

Get over your selfs guys, the egos are way to big.

[Jaye Perry]

I had to log in under Jaye's name since I can't seem to recieve any email from the FHRC with a new password. I do however have Jaye's permission to use his loggin name. Baron if this is a problem I apologize.

Phil, you inconsiderate, ignorant child. Jaye came to New Hampshire for YOU!!! Not for some big clinic, not to make money (since he wasn't paid and never asked for any money). The first thing I would like to dispute is the fact you said Jaye was rude to Dr. Moyer. I never saw, and if Jaye did happen to cut in while the Doctor was talking it was probably more because he's deaf in one ear than trying to be rude, I've been with Jaye to many clinics that's he's put on and he's always been very professional and very kind to the attending vetrinarians and farriers, I saw nothing different from that in New Hampshire.

Now let's talk about the horse we worked on shall we? Do you know the term Windswept as a conformation fault?? Usually it's cause by poor trimming. Both feet point the same direction, in your horses case the left front was toed out and the right front was toed in. Also known as right handed farriers disease. You're the farrier, you're right handed.

Now let's talk about the owner of that horse, NOT WANTING YOU TO SHOE THE HORSE AT THE CLINIC. She didn't trust you enough Phil, to take the suggestions that Jaye gave you and implement them, she insisted that Jaye "lay hands" on her horse. At the clinic we did at my place, my clients insisted that I alone lay hands on the horse, unless I specified who did what to thier horses. For someone that preaches about trust in horses and trust in the owners, you lacked both, the horse was spoiled and unruly and the owner didn't trust you. Instead of asking the good doctor for a little chemical restraint you wanted to bust the horse across the belly, surely not the way that your Australian trainer buddy would want you to do things.

I wasn't there at the restraunt, so I can't comment on what happened other than I would find it hard to believe that Jaye didn't leave the waitress $100 tip for putting up with the herd.

Jaye had nothing to do with Jason's girlfriend getting carded for beer, I don't think he was even in the car with us when it happened, and all that happened was Jeff gave the attendant a bit of a hard time. Not really a big deal, but a good story to tell, If I recall you weren't there either, so what do you know about the incident?

You caused the trouble that the horse had, Jaye and as far as I'm concerned everyone else there was nothing but kind to you by not pointing that fact out blatently to everyone in attendance that day, including the owner.

You don't know enough to shut up, and learn. When Jaye was shaping the shoes, you made a comment that Jaye's excuse for making so many trips to the anvil was to let the foot settle. The feet needed to settle, and shaping shoes to those feet that You Butchered was no easy task. Unless of course he was to shape them like you, pull them out, close them up and nail them on.

you're a hack and a disgrace to this profession. All you do is run your mouth, you have some book knowledge, but you lack the ability to apply that knowledge. Now you've picked a fight with him simply because he pointed out the fact that you failed to gather enough information to do what was right by this particular horse that you posted. In your case you shouldn't look for more information, information in your hands is dangerous. You should simply to exactly what the vet asks for, nothing more, nothing less. That way you can't get blamed for anything.

I've said my peace. I'm sure you'll have some childish retort which will anger me, but you're simply not worth the breath, or time it takes to type. Live in your little world were you are your own hero Phil. Your ingnorant enough to not know when something was done for you, to help you, to teach you, and now you take that and throw it someone's face.

you're simply a child Phil,

Dave Purves
dpforge@aol.com
(937)212-9459

[fairweatherforge]

phil black
eric blue

I do recall him stateing how he felt injury to the impar ligament might be more common than we realize.

Trimming heels low and not backing the shoe up enough could be a big reason why.

I would think the addition of things like frog support and/or wedgeing could increase trauma to damage in this area of the foot.

Why would frog support increase trama or damage? Is the frog falling through the shoe a good thing?

[smitty88]

i would not like to see anybody leave the forum
if you two dont get along for what ever reason

avoid returning each others threads
its just getting a bit personal at the end of the day

it dosent matter who has the exsperience the years
the cases you have done

we are all in the same boat we are shoeing for a living
i think we should have a sin bin

the head man would decide who has been rude or nasty
to our fellow farriers then put them on ice for a month

what you think

[Phil Armitage]

I had to log in under Jaye's name since I can't seem to recieve any email from the FHRC with a new password. I do however have Jaye's permission to use his loggin name. Baron if this is a problem I apologize.

Phil, you inconsiderate, ignorant child. Jaye came to New Hampshire for YOU!!! Not for some big clinic, not to make money (since he wasn't paid and never asked for any money). The first thing I would like to dispute is the fact you said Jaye was rude to Dr. Moyer. I never saw, and if Jaye did happen to cut in while the Doctor was talking it was probably more because he's deaf in one ear than trying to be rude, I've been with Jaye to many clinics that's he's put on and he's always been very professional and very kind to the attending vetrinarians and farriers, I saw nothing different from that in New Hampshire.

Now let's talk about the horse we worked on shall we? Do you know the term Windswept as a conformation fault?? Usually it's cause by poor trimming. Both feet point the same direction, in your horses case the left front was toed out and the right front was toed in. Also known as right handed farriers disease. You're the farrier, you're right handed.

Now let's talk about the owner of that horse, NOT WANTING YOU TO SHOE THE HORSE AT THE CLINIC. She didn't trust you enough Phil, to take the suggestions that Jaye gave you and implement them, she insisted that Jaye "lay hands" on her horse. At the clinic we did at my place, my clients insisted that I alone lay hands on the horse, unless I specified who did what to thier horses. For someone that preaches about trust in horses and trust in the owners, you lacked both, the horse was spoiled and unruly and the owner didn't trust you. Instead of asking the good doctor for a little chemical restraint you wanted to bust the horse across the belly, surely not the way that your Australian trainer buddy would want you to do things.

I wasn't there at the restraunt, so I can't comment on what happened other than I would find it hard to believe that Jaye didn't leave the waitress $100 tip for putting up with the herd.

Jaye had nothing to do with Jason's girlfriend getting carded for beer, I don't think he was even in the car with us when it happened, and all that happened was Jeff gave the attendant a bit of a hard time. Not really a big deal, but a good story to tell, If I recall you weren't there either, so what do you know about the incident?

You caused the trouble that the horse had, Jaye and as far as I'm concerned everyone else there was nothing but kind to you by not pointing that fact out blatently to everyone in attendance that day, including the owner.

You don't know enough to shut up, and learn. When Jaye was shaping the shoes, you made a comment that Jaye's excuse for making so many trips to the anvil was to let the foot settle. The feet needed to settle, and shaping shoes to those feet that You Butchered was no easy task. Unless of course he was to shape them like you, pull them out, close them up and nail them on.

you're a hack and a disgrace to this profession. All you do is run your mouth, you have some book knowledge, but you lack the ability to apply that knowledge. Now you've picked a fight with him simply because he pointed out the fact that you failed to gather enough information to do what was right by this particular horse that you posted. In your case you shouldn't look for more information, information in your hands is dangerous. You should simply to exactly what the vet asks for, nothing more, nothing less. That way you can't get blamed for anything.

I've said my peace. I'm sure you'll have some childish retort which will anger me, but you're simply not worth the breath, or time it takes to type. Live in your little world were you are your own hero Phil. Your ingnorant enough to not know when something was done for you, to help you, to teach you, and now you take that and throw it someone's face.

you're simply a child Phil,

Dave Purves
dpforge@aol.com
(937)212-9459

Dave I will reply in detail later, sometime after Sunday afternoon football. Jaye told me why he came to NH to get away and some R&R it is for him. On his trip here he and some of the others were haveing a good time and I have no problem with that. Haveing a good time other's peoples expense is not impressive. I didnt want to go there and frankly don't give a **** what others do, however Jaye pushed it. I can provide a detailed history of this horse from when I started shoeing him. The term wind swept is used in foals with as a conformational fault that they are born with. Angular limb deformities, fetlock deviations. Are you suggesting this can be corrected in a 7 Y.O. horse. This horse was so prone to injury prior to me trimming and balanceing his feet to his conformation. Get all the facts Dave. I respect your loyalty to Jaye. Signe of a good friend, however I don't owe Jaye anything. He pushed his way over here after I refused to take him up on his offer to come to Atlanta. The reason I did not want to go was because of his school yard bully attitude and rudeness. I have no tolerance for this kind of behavior. If his ego is so big for him to spend that kind of money to come to me that is not my problem. Your following right in his footsteps as arrogant and rude.

[fairweatherforge]

You don't know enough to shut up, and learn. When Jaye was shaping the shoes, you made a comment that Jaye's excuse for making so many trips to the anvil was to let the foot settle. The feet needed to settle, and shaping shoes to those feet that You Butchered was no easy task. Unless of course he was to shape them like you, pull them out, close them up and nail them on.

Unfortunately Phil, I'm gonna have to agree with Dave on this one. You might not know who I am, but I was sitting right next to you at a Bob Pethick clinic at the supplie house by you. You mouth was running a mile a minute as if you new more than bob.

Clinics are not these forums. You need to stand there observe, interact, but most of all keep you mouth shut. Clinicians are taking time out of the work schedule to help others. The money, if any, is ****.

If I had a clinic at my house, I would be ashamed of myself if he was a 100% on the second day. They're supposed to be fun. And it sounds like it was. Puking on the lawn at the hotel, couldn't have been too bad a day.

Also, the rookie comment and any other comments. I can only speak for myself. Compared to most of these guys, I am a rookie. Take the beating like a man.

[Phil Armitage]

I had to log in under Jaye's name since I can't seem to recieve any email from the FHRC with a new password. I do however have Jaye's permission to use his loggin name. Baron if this is a problem I apologize.

Phil, you inconsiderate, ignorant child. Jaye came to New Hampshire for YOU!!! Not for some big clinic, not to make money (since he wasn't paid and never asked for any money).

I already gave my response to this remark. People attending were willing to pay for the clinic. I turned it down. I was willing to pay for all meals when we went out to eat considering the cost to travel here. I provided all the food for the two days out of my pocket.

The first thing I would like to dispute is the fact you said Jaye was rude to Dr. Moyer. I never saw, and if Jaye did happen to cut in while the Doctor was talking it was probably more because he's deaf in one ear than trying to be rude, I've been with Jaye to many clinics that's he's put on and he's always been very professional and very kind to the attending vetrinarians and farriers, I saw nothing different from that in New Hampshire.

I am also 60% deaf in one ear, I miss a lot of what other are saying so I can apprecaite what Jaye goes through. The look on the Doc's face was very obvious to me when Jaye totaly interupted him while he was welcomeing you guys to the clinic and also going over his schedule. If you didnt notice right after Jaye cut him off he was quick to say see ya and that he was buisy. Totaly rude and unacceptable.

Now let's talk about the horse we worked on shall we? Do you know the term Windswept as a conformation fault?? Usually it's cause by poor trimming. Both feet point the same direction, in your horses case the left front was toed out and the right front was toed in. Also known as right handed farriers disease. You're the farrier, you're right handed.

Yes I know the term Wind Swept and it is not a deviation caused by trimming. I explained already. Yes I am right handed, I recall your also right handed. I trim to the live sole plane for medial lateral balance. The first time I saw this horse his feet were straight not turned in or out. However very sore in the fetlocks and bottom of both front feet. After two shoeing cycles one foot turned in and the other out. Maybe this was a wind swept foal that someone tried to straighten the feet. 7 YO horse that is now useless, because of stress and trauma to lower limb.

Now let's talk about the owner of that horse, NOT WANTING YOU TO SHOE THE HORSE AT THE CLINIC. She didn't trust you enough Phil, to take the suggestions that Jaye gave you and implement them, she insisted that Jaye "lay hands" on her horse. At the clinic we did at my place, my clients insisted that I alone lay hands on the horse, unless I specified who did what to thier horses. For someone that preaches about trust in horses and trust in the owners, you lacked both, the horse was spoiled and unruly and the owner didn't trust you. Instead of asking the good doctor for a little chemical restraint you wanted to bust the horse across the belly, surely not the way that your Australian trainer buddy would want you to do things..

Yep the owner did insist on Jaye shoeing the horse, but not because of a lack of trusting me. Originaly she told me that she only wanted me to touch her horse and I told her whatever she wanted is fine with me. It was also fine with me if she wanted Jaye to do the work. I have no problem with that. Your right the horse is spoiled and also very sore. This has been a problem from the start and I have gotten after this horse before. Kind of like a mean nurse getting the job done. I did wack him on the belly and it worked. I have no problem provideing this link to the owner and getting her thoughts on this. She might be reading this already for all I know. I provided her with this site a long time ago.

I wasn't there at the restraunt, so I can't comment on what happened other than I would find it hard to believe that Jaye didn't leave the waitress $100 tip for putting up with the herd.

My buddy was there and frankly both of us were embarrased. His comments to the waitress were inexcusalbe. 100.00 tip is supposed to make up for it, doesnt work like that in New England.

Jaye had nothing to do with Jason's girlfriend getting carded for beer, I don't think he was even in the car with us when it happened, and all that happened was Jeff gave the attendant a bit of a hard time. Not really a big deal, but a good story to tell, If I recall you weren't there either, so what do you know about the incident?

I never said Jaye was there and I also said I do not know about the incident. However you did clarify it more.

You caused the trouble that the horse had, Jaye and as far as I'm concerned everyone else there was nothing but kind to you by not pointing that fact out blatently to everyone in attendance that day, including the owner.

The cause of the problem existed before I came along, this is the reason for bringing this horse. You guys were kind. Jaye's constant accusations and opinion of me on numerous threads has come to a head.

You don't know enough to shut up, and learn. When Jaye was shaping the shoes, you made a comment that Jaye's excuse for making so many trips to the anvil was to let the foot settle. The feet needed to settle, and shaping shoes to those feet that You Butchered was no easy task. Unless of course he was to shape them like you, pull them out, close them up and nail them on.

No, Jaye does not know when to shut up and niether do you. Letting the feet settle is a great idea. I did not butcher the feet and that is way out of line. I will provide the original pics of these feet when I first saw them. This horse went from a high grade lameness at a walk to being able to be ridden again prior to comeing to Jaye's thing. The horse has not improved or gotten any worse after Jayes shoeing. Your a complete ***** for makeing these remarks.

you're a hack and a disgrace to this profession. All you do is run your mouth, you have some book knowledge, but you lack the ability to apply that knowledge. Now you've picked a fight with him simply because he pointed out the fact that you failed to gather enough information to do what was right by this particular horse that you posted. In your case you shouldn't look for more information, information in your hands is dangerous. You should simply to exactly what the vet asks for, nothing more, nothing less. That way you can't get blamed for anything.

I am not supprised at your comments and loyalty to Jaye and your attitude. Your a follower of Jaye. Your choice.


I've said my peace. I'm sure you'll have some childish retort which will anger me, but you're simply not worth the breath, or time it takes to type. Live in your little world were you are your own hero Phil. Your ingnorant enough to not know when something was done for you, to help you, to teach you, and now you take that and throw it someone's face.

you're simply a child Phil,

Dave Purves
dpforge@aol.com
(937)212-9459

Nice Dave real nice, do you feel better?

[Phil Armitage]

You don't know enough to shut up, and learn. When Jaye was shaping the shoes, you made a comment that Jaye's excuse for making so many trips to the anvil was to let the foot settle. The feet needed to settle, and shaping shoes to those feet that You Butchered was no easy task. Unless of course he was to shape them like you, pull them out, close them up and nail them on.

Unfortunately Phil, I'm gonna have to agree with Dave on this one. You might not know who I am, but I was sitting right next to you at a Bob Pethick clinic at the supplie house by you. You mouth was running a mile a minute as if you new more than bob.

Clinics are not these forums. You need to stand there observe, interact, but most of all keep you mouth shut. Clinicians are taking time out of the work schedule to help others. The money, if any, is ****.

If I had a clinic at my house, I would be ashamed of myself if he was a 100% on the second day. They're supposed to be fun. And it sounds like it was. Puking on the lawn at the hotel, couldn't have been too bad a day.

Also, the rookie comment and any other comments. I can only speak for myself. Compared to most of these guys, I am a rookie. Take the beating like a man.

Cinics should be fun Eric and I do talk a lot, however not while a clinic is going on, I had a new farrier sitting with me constantly asking me questions. I apologize if I disrupted the clinic for you. I provided the horse for that clinic and Bob kept the horse owner waiting and waiting to the point patience were worn thin. I went through a lot of work finding a good horse for the clinic. Meaders was desperate to find a horse per Bob's request and did what I could.

I certainly do not know more than Bob, however he did attack the concept of NB principles and then go on to say how he floats heels. Look trimming and shoeing principles should be taught clear and understandable. If the clinician makes it so complicated that it turns it into rocket science then I think that is a shame. Achieveing a balanced foot to the horses conformation is hard enough task as it is. NB principles are solid and are surviveing the test of time. Look at Jaye's trimming and shoeing principle, breakover, trimming the heels back to the widest part of the foot. All good stuff, however it was not too long ago Jaye was spouting off about breakover, so was Dave. Oh well.

I will add that Bob's presentation was excellent and an eye opener. Especially the gait analysis and slow motion videos. Good stuff.

[Jaye Perry]

I am not supprised at your comments and loyalty to Jaye and your attitude. Your a follower of Jaye. Your choice.
You may label me anyway you want Phil. I at least have the humility to shut up and listen when someone is trying to teach me something, and the inteligence to let them do it. I figured you out along time ago Phil, you like to stir the pot. You're just like John Kerry, flip, flop flippty floppty. One minute you like AFA certificaition the next you don't. You agree with bringing breakover back, but then you don't. You simply exist to stir the pot. And that's fine. But when someone has done something to help you, you turn around and spit in thier face. I don't care where you're from, that's not right. You say the horse is no better???? Then why is it that when we were done you and the owner were both commenting on how the horse has never been better??? Why was the owner seeming to be near tears with the way the horse was?? I guess you folks up in New England are a little different. Phil, I don't care what the owner originally said, I was there, I saw her push you out of the way to get to Jaye, to plead with Jaye to shoe her horse, if I recall she even offered to pay Jaye to shoe the horse and Jaye told her to donate the money to her favorite charity. You're perception is off Phil, way off. The reason these forums work so well is that we become somewhat of a "club", when the chance arises for us to meet and work together we should take those opportunities. Jaye knows where you're at in your professional development cause he was there, and we all go through it. He offered to come up there and work with you and others to open your horizons a little bit. His methods may be different than what you're used to, he may be a little arogant and pushy at times, but his heart is in the right place, he made the trip to New Hampshire just to help you out a little, teach you something, even if it's how to look at horses a little differently, or Jason teaching you how to make a shoe, or Jeff showing you how to weld a bar shoe, or me showing you how to hold your tongs and swing the hammer when making heels. We get together to help each other. The statements you made while we were there and the statements you've made here have made things very clear to me. You already know everything, there is nothing left for you to learn. Gods speed to Phil, I hope your life turns out to be everything you think it is.

Nice Dave real nice, do you feel better?
Yes I do.

Dave Purves
dpforge@aol.com

[fairweatherforge]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage]Cinics should be fun Eric and I do talk a lot, however not while a clinic is going on, I had a new farrier sitting with me constantly asking me questions. I apologize if I disrupted the clinic for you. I provided the horse for that clinic and Bob kept the horse owner waiting and waiting to the point patience were worn thin. I went through a lot of work finding a good horse for the clinic. Meaders was desperate to find a horse per Bob's request and did what I could.

Actually I think the last thing Bob wanted to do was drive to NH and shoe a horse. (As seen when he didn't shoe the front feet and quickly threw a pair of hind shoes on) His gait analysis showed everything that needed to be shown, shoeing a horse added nothing it. Except that everyone likes to see Bob work at the anvil. Anyway my point is unlike the internet, you need to show some respect towards clinicians. Its not the easiest thing to do to speak in front of a group of people.

I certainly do not know more than Bob, however he did attack the concept of NB principles and then go on to say how he floats heels. Look trimming and shoeing principles should be taught clear and understandable. If the clinician makes it so complicated that it turns it into rocket science then I think that is a shame. Achieveing a balanced foot to the horses conformation is hard enough task as it is. NB principles are solid and are surviveing the test of time. Look at Jaye's trimming and shoeing principle, breakover, trimming the heels back to the widest part of the foot. All good stuff, however it was not too long ago Jaye was spouting off about breakover, so was Dave. Oh well.

I remember he mentioned something about nb, can't remember what. anyway.
Since we're on bob and gait analysis, he's shown alot about fetlock drop. Whick brings us back to the underrun heels topic. Wedgeing heels will decrease the amount of fetlock drop. I associate underrun heels with upright pasterns (tight superficial tendons). (its the only way I can see to remove weight enough at the heels to allow the heel to migrate forward and still allow the toe to be a at a low angle) So I see the coffin bone and foot as one thing. And the pastern as another. In a perfect world they would work in harmony. In underrun heels I don't think they are. So it seems like the real question is do we wedge and allign hpa while decreasing the fetlocks ability to absorb energy or do we not wedge and possibly increase coffin joint problems? Does environment effect this decision?

[Phil Armitage]

You may label me anyway you want Phil. I at least have the humility to shut up and listen when someone is trying to teach me something, and the inteligence to let them do it. I figured you out along time ago Phil, you like to stir the pot. You're just like John Kerry, flip, flop flippty floppty. One minute you like AFA certificaition the next you don't. You agree with bringing breakover back, but then you don't. You simply exist to stir the pot. And that's fine. But when someone has done something to help you, you turn around and spit in thier face. I don't care where you're from, that's not right. You say the horse is no better???? Then why is it that when we were done you and the owner were both commenting on how the horse has never been better??? Why was the owner seeming to be near tears with the way the horse was?? I guess you folks up in New England are a little different. Phil, I don't care what the owner originally said, I was there, I saw her push you out of the way to get to Jaye, to plead with Jaye to shoe her horse, if I recall she even offered to pay Jaye to shoe the horse and Jaye told her to donate the money to her favorite charity. You're perception is off Phil, way off. The reason these forums work so well is that we become somewhat of a "club", when the chance arises for us to meet and work together we should take those opportunities. Jaye knows where you're at in your professional development cause he was there, and we all go through it. He offered to come up there and work with you and others to open your horizons a little bit. His methods may be different than what you're used to, he may be a little arogant and pushy at times, but his heart is in the right place, he made the trip to New Hampshire just to help you out a little, teach you something, even if it's how to look at horses a little differently, or Jason teaching you how to make a shoe, or Jeff showing you how to weld a bar shoe, or me showing you how to hold your tongs and swing the hammer when making heels. We get together to help each other. The statements you made while we were there and the statements you've made here have made things very clear to me. You already know everything, there is nothing left for you to learn. Gods speed to Phil, I hope your life turns out to be everything you think it is.


Yes I do.

Dave Purves
dpforge@aol.com

Dave I actually thought it was cool to let Jaye shoe the horse. I did say to the owner that Jaye did not feel good and that he hurts. If you remember Jaye did not want to shoe the horse and the owner insisted on it. The owner asked me several times if I understood what Jaye did and could replicate it at the next shoeing. The shoeing consited of broadeing the toe, fitting full, seating out the foot side of the shoe adding rim pads and useing equipak just deep enough to not creat sole pressure. He did a nice job, however the horse still landed on the lateral wall on his RF. Been doing that since I saw him. We discussed the fussyness in the area of the coffin joint as being problematic. The owners regular Vet said the best that can be done is to always inject the joints and hocks to keep him comfortable. Jaye also found him to be sensitive to hoof testers on the bottom of the feet as I do everytime I have shod him from the beggeining. He lacks sole depth and has small feet, conformational devieated at the fetlock. What can I say, I must of created the lack of sole depth, devieation at the fetlock and poor landing. The owner was estactic because of the optimism from Jaye that this horse can perform at the level she wants. I told her I don't think so and her Vet has told her the same thing, not without major cost of injecting the joints all the time to keep him comfortble. That night we went out to eat and Jaye agreed that this horse was doomed, however that is not what he told the owner. This puzzles me a little as to why Jaye was not straight forward with the owner. It doenst matter, I did the best I could and her horse improved dramaticly before Jaye saw the horse. It was an opportunity to get more infomation, it was a good horse for a clinic and the owner has come to terms that this horse will continue to have problems due to the conformation, lack of sole depth, small feet, hock and back issues. Time to move on.

My beef with Jaye does not concern you or others. Jaye started the attack on this forum and I will stand up to him or anyone else that continues to attack me in such a way. Go back and read his comments. I understand the horse that I posted pictures of might benefit from raising the heels and bringing the breakover back. I am communicateing this to the trainer and plan on discussing this with the Vet. I simply posted it for the original discussion and Jaye went way off track by constantly stateing I did not do the job right, that I am lazy and a hack. If your going to get into name calling and slanderous remarks be prepaired. I am certainly not going to lay down and take it. If you want to critique my work no problem, however do so with class. Posting work on here for critique is not the signe of a hack. If I were new to the forum after reading all this I would be very hesitant to post my work here.

I am glad you feel better Dave, your a good person and it was a pleasure to meet you and the others.

[Phil Armitage]

Eric in Blue, my response in black.

Actually I think the last thing Bob wanted to do was drive to NH and shoe a horse. (As seen when he didn't shoe the front feet and quickly threw a pair of hind shoes on) His gait analysis showed everything that needed to be shown, shoeing a horse added nothing it. Except that everyone likes to see Bob work at the anvil. Anyway my point is unlike the internet, you need to show some respect towards clinicians. Its not the easiest thing to do to speak in front of a group of people.

Actually Meaders was in a pickle because Bob needed a horse that had hind end issues and needed support in the hind and to demonstrate shoeing the hind feet with KH DF shoes. Being the kind of person that will jump through hoops to help others I spent a lot of time calling around to find a good candidate that would also tolerate standing in a garrage bay surrounded by chairs and a crowed. The owner is a good friend of mine and is always willing to help me out. After I got her to agree to bring her horse I found out Bob had mentioned to Meaders that he preffered a horse that had some foot to work with. This horse was barefoot behind, so I shod the hind 4 weeks prior to make sure Bob had some foot to work with. Does this sound like a person that has no respect for the clinician. I did get a little heated when my friend was still made to wait for Bob nearly until the end of the clinic before she brought her horse in. Took up her whole day. When I scheduled the horeses for Jaye's clinic I gave people a specific time that so that they did not have to wait around for long periods of time. Finding someone to provide a horse for a clinic is not an easy task and the owner needs to be treated with respect and courtousy. If Bob did not want to shoe a horse then all he had to do is say so and I would not have had the owner waste there and my time.

I do not recall being disrepectfull to Bob during the clinic so I am puzzled that you see it that way. I have taken Bob to task on this forum for his attitude towards farriers spending time chatting on a discussion forum. I think both of us have since moved on.

So it seems like the real question is do we wedge and allign hpa while decreasing the fetlocks ability to absorb energy or do we not wedge and possibly increase coffin joint problems? Does environment effect this decision?

That is a great question, hopefully someone will tackle it. I highly recommend you start a new thread with this question. This one is a mess. :mad:

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Dang, I just about spewed Mt. Dew out my nose when Dave wrote flip flop. I been calling you (Phil) that for months. It was even mentioned in another thread about how often you change your views by others. Even now when I say something about flip flop my wife knows who I'm talking about. Sorry Phil, but to those who are on here alot, we have seen the changes whether you can understand it or not.

The only other thing that has a glaring probelm here is your "I did this, it was Me that did that, I bent over backwards." You sure have a self aggrandizing out look of what you did. You must be the greatest most giving unselfish person in the world. You always do somethings for someone but never see anyone doing anything for you. You are quite the selfish egotistical person, and you are not all you think you are.

Now don't go calling me a Jaye accolite, :rolleyes: cause I don't know him from anyone else on here. Asked him a couple of questions through PM's and got good helpful info and that's all.

This is just an outsiders view

[Phil Armitage]

Dang, I just about spewed Mt. Dew out my nose when Dave wrote flip flop. I been calling you (Phil) that for months. It was even mentioned in another thread about how often you change your views by others. Even now when I say something about flip flop my wife knows who I'm talking about. Sorry Phil, but to those who are on here alot, we have seen the changes whether you can understand it or not.

The only other thing that has a glaring probelm here is your "I did this, it was Me that did that, I bent over backwards." You sure have a self aggrandizing out look of what you did. You must be the greatest most giving unselfish person in the world. You always do somethings for someone but never see anyone doing anything for you. You are quite the selfish egotistical person, and you are not all you think you are.

Now don't go calling me a Jaye accolite, :rolleyes: cause I don't know him from anyone else on here. Asked him a couple of questions through PM's and got good helpful info and that's all.

This is just an outsiders view

I quess it depends. How about what you do, got any pictures of your work that you care to share. You took the time to take your shots at me how about takeing the time to share your ideas and work.

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye just to change the subject how do you reply to threads
with out us seeing your name on the forum

its like you are invisible

You can go to the User CP, then select edit options and you can choose invisible mode.

[BS-Horseshoeing]

First I gotta ask, "What depends?" Now that Rick and Tom have used that in a few situations is it going to be your answer every time you can"t come up with an intelligent answer? As far as my ideas, I'm not the type to get in here and tell someone how to do anything, there are many who are way more qualified than I am at this point in my career so I read, listen and learn. Take the info, store it for my use in the future if needed, and try to get a good laugh out of here now and then.

I have posted a few pics over the years, one about club feet, got a couple of remarks and ideas and was told everything looked pretty good. I ask a few questions and get answers, sometimes give a point of view, but ain't crazy enough to put something up for critique and then start pis*sing and moaning when I don't hear what I want. I would just roll with the punches, use what I could and discard anything I felt was useless. I have been shoeing for a living just a couple of months less than you Phil and da*mn sure don't think I know enough to tell people what to do on every subject that comes up. But then again you sound like a broken record most of the time anyway. I can't help it you have a need to get those attaboys and can't take it when you get the oh cr*ap's that wipe them out. In this case in particular you say you made special accomodations for this horse. Why didn't you do that one day to see the vet and then again another day to work on the horse. Very simple and we wouldn't be having this useless discussion. You kissed the vets, trainers, and owners but*ts so you could feel like a hero instead of being like the person you so much describe your self as, the one who won't compromise the horse, who won't do what he doesn't believe in, who will just walk away if he doesn't think what is happening is right. You did just the opposite of those things in this case. Phil, you talk the talk, but you just backed up and didn't walk the walk. Sorry, but that's the way it looks.

Now, just for your briused little (or big) ego, and to show you that I can take it, I will get some pictures of my work over the next few days and let you tear it apart so you can feel better and all big and all knowing again. I will get some pics of every day feet, some feet with EDSS steel shoes, some barefoot horses, and if any come up, any with pathologies. Will that make it OK with you so you can, as you say, take some shots at me? Will that make us even?

OK, waiting for your answers.

[J.H. shoeing]

Ben

I have been out of town hunting with my son for a couple of days and have missed some of the post on this thread.

I would venture to guess that you have been shoeing for a couple of months less than Phil but have probably shod about ten times as many horses. I also agree that Phil will flip flop faster than John Kerry at a war demonstration.


Purves

After reading your post I felt better also. Kind of like having a BM and losing a pant size.

And to just set the record straight

I, Jeff Holder am the one who ask the clerk at the store if he was serious when he wanted to see ID from two 30+ year old men and a 25 year old woman. I am also the one who advised him of how comfortable I felt in knowing that he would be "on the job" checking ID's and selling cigarettes in New Hampshire. I also departed his presence giving him the universal sign of:

That horse has issues,
Josh will have to post that pic for me.
:D

[danverschild]

And to just set the record straight

I, Jeff Holder am the one who ask the clerk at the store if he was serious when he wanted to see ID from two 30+ year old men and a 25 year old woman. I am also the one who advised him of how comfortable I felt in knowing that he would be "on the job" checking ID's and selling cigarettes in New Hampshire. I also departed his presence giving him the universal sign

HA! Little Jeff Holder representin' in New England. I knew I should have headed the truck NorthEast that weekend. I wanted to get up there and see Jay's clinic and visit with y'all, but.... no... I stayed here to shoe and missed it. So, I'm guessing that just out of general respect and in order to express good manners in the presence of the Mighty Maki and his girlfriend that you refrained from calling the shopclerk a damned yankee and didn't offer to give him a wedgie to see if it would increase the forces on his heels, or whatever it is this thread used to be about.... :D

[smitty88]

This thread is gone passed wedging or Rads
lets get back on track everybody

[SlowShoe]

He saw more Rads in the presentation I gave than he has seen in his career. But he still relys on therum instead of fact. Just p-i-ssed that I wasted mine and the minions' time just for him

Hey Jaye, I really enjoyed the clinic and got a lot out of it. I dont think you lumped me in the category of minions as I never worked with you before. I did miss a bit when I ran out to the supply shop while some of the shoes were being nailed on but I really enjoyed the whole thing. I hope you dont still feel it was a waste of time.



And to just set the record straight

I, Jeff Holder am the one who ask the clerk at the store if he was serious when he wanted to see ID from two 30+ year old men and a 25 year old woman. I am also the one who advised him of how comfortable I felt in knowing that he would be "on the job" checking ID's and selling cigarettes in New Hampshire. I also departed his presence giving him the universal sign of:
http://joshnoone.com/photos/jh-l1.jpg



Putting yourself in a situation where you were not 100% to do a good job presenting your power point presentation.

Phil, I thought the PP presentation was great..?? I'm not knocking you, but Im serious. Also you have to admit he was more than accommodating and polite to your client who could have probably better benefited from the sedative if we gave it to her rather than her horse.


Also, Purves for puking on the Hotel's lawn.

To think I left before all the fun. Dave buddy heres your sign:http://joshnoone.com/photos/jh-l1.jpg

=]


Jason teaching you how to make a shoe, or Jeff showing you how to weld a bar shoe, or me showing you how to hold your tongs and swing the hammer when making heels. We get together to help each other.

I really enjoyed that part watching everyone learn from one another. I know Andrew enjoyed that as well, it was like brothers helping brothers. I really felt like everyone did their best to make everyone feel involved and appreciated.



Man I spent 2 hours reading this post, got 5 or 6 to do tomorrow and its 3:45am!! :eek: I;m gonna be tired.





To get back on track



If the answer is a suspensory desmitis, couldn't one argue that raising the angle would be counter productive? as might easing the breakover?

Pat,
A few questions, (not ment to be hostile in any way :) )
While I can understand that wedging a horse with an inflamed suspensory could cause some pain, do you think it would be that bad if you were simply wedging to HPA as its where it should be? Im sure this is warrants an 'it depends' response on the grade of the desmitis.

How would increasing the breakover a bit really effect this? Shouldnt the angular flextion still be remotely the same at its most extreme point?

Thanks!

[smitty88]

back on track







sound out Josh

(irish saying) good on ya

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye, do some soul searching. If you need someone to talk to, I am all ears.

[reillyshoe]

[QUOTE]A few questions, (not ment to be hostile in any way )
While I can understand that wedging a horse with an inflamed suspensory could cause some pain, do you think it would be that bad if you were simply wedging to HPA as its where it should be? Im sure this is warrants an 'it depends' response on the grade of the desmitis.

How would increasing the breakover a bit really effect this? Shouldnt the angular flextion still be remotely the same at its most extreme point?


Josh,
I meant this to be superficial digital flexor tendon. Denoix's group in France came up with a method of measuring strain on the tendon in a live horse. They then changed the angle of the foot and measured the stress again.They also evaluated differing shoes with regard to SDF strain. Open toed Egg bars added to the stress, as did raising the angle. Lowering the angle lowered the SDF strain.

There are some limitations to the study. I did not see the original hoof angle considered, and the measurments were conducted at the walk on soft footing, however it is an example of what studies we need more of- cause and effect of horseshoeing.

As you saw, I have a pretty cool place to work. Most of the lame horses I see get some pretty definitive answers as to WHERE the pain is coming from. In my opinion, shoeing to an ideal foot conformation is not as important as shoeing to protect whatever structures are causing at the moment.

Interestingly (with regard to this case), most of the horses I shoe after nuclear scintigraphy have similar shoeing- Aluminum wedge egg bar shoe with frog support and breakover point. That is probably where I would have started with this case, however in the absence of a definitive diagnosis I tell the client that we are shooting in the dark.

Bill Moyer stated at the Hoof Summitt that there are 70 reasons a horse could be lame, even if you know the pain is in the hoof. Do you really think any shoe or trim guarantees improving all 70 things?

[Phil Armitage]

Thank you Josh. Overall it was a great weekend. I had a great time and learned a lot. It was a pleasure meeting you and I hope we can get together again seeing your not too far.

[Phil Armitage]

[QUOTE]
Bill Moyer stated at the Hoof Summitt that there are 70 reasons a horse could be lame, even if you know the pain is in the hoof. Do you really think any shoe or trim guarantees improving all 70 things?

No. I like Moyer's suggestion to try it and change if it don't work. There is one particular Vet in our area who diagnosis this way, trial and error. I try what he recommends and he uses it as a diagnostics tool. Wish I could work with the guy more often. He has been a great horse Vet for many years.

Here is the first time I shod the horse we did in NH. This is what I did on 4/24/06.

I am not saying what I did was right or wrong. We tried something different and it helped for a little. Horse improved however there is much more going on in this horse than shoeing can fix.

Before:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000066b.jpg

After:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000070.jpg

[fairweatherforge]

Before:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000066b.jpg

After:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000070.jpg[/QUOTE]

Phil, I thought you were into natural balance? Was this shoeing also done with a vet prescription? If so, couldn't you just place breakover where you thought it was appropriate. If anyone had any questions you could easily refer to x-rays to prove your point. Or simply explain that you need to center the shoe under the limb and if they want you could put a toe extension on.

[Phil Armitage]

Before:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000066b.jpg

After:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000070.jpg

Phil, I thought you were into natural balance? Was this shoeing also done with a vet prescription? If so, couldn't you just place breakover where you thought it was appropriate. If anyone had any questions you could easily refer to x-rays to prove your point. Or simply explain that you need to center the shoe under the limb and if they want you could put a toe extension on.
[/QUOTE]

I am into natural balance, no it was not done with a vets prescription, however the Vet and I did look at the X-Rays and talk about it.

You do not think that breakover is far enough back?
This shoeing was done to do something different. Horse has been haveing issues (or as Jeff would say "L") for over a year prior to me seeing him and was very lame from popped splint at the time and also very sore feet, sore back, sore hocks. Issues in the feet are minor compared to other issues this horse has. The owner wanted to try something. We even went barefoot for awhile with time off and that also seemed to help. When I first saw this horse he could barely walk, I am the 3rd farrier to work on him. I do not blame any of the other farriers. I learned a big lesson working on this horse. The lesson learned is don't point fingers, the other guys also did the best they could.

One person who has taught me a lot without even knowing it. Is Patt Rielly, he has seen a lot of my work. One of the nicest and talented farrier you will ever meet. He has taught me to be open minded, not be quick to judge another farrier's work and how complex this trade really is. Thank you Patt.

I also want to thank Patt for teaching me how to apply glue on shoes and the tricks useing aluminum egg bars with equipak. I was totaly against glue ons and egg bars and now see it has it's place. I really like my forge and anvil, steel shoes and traditional methods of shoeing.

Good questions Eric, nothing wrong with critiqueing and asking questions I learn a lot from others shareing my work. I am not posting my work and ideas to say I am right, just putting it out there.

[fairweatherforge]

You do not think that breakover is far enough back?

No, from this picture it looks like it could've come back a little more. Not pointing fingers. Just an opinion on the pic. From the before shot its not surprising the feet were sore.

[Andrew Grimm]

Phil,
I had a great time in NH. The clinic, fellowship, food, and presentation were all terrific.
You've been talking a lot of trash about Jaye when he was in NH. If you had such a problem with the way Jaye was acting then why didn't you say anything to his face? I never saw any indications that you were upset or offended. You appeared to be having a great time(?).




Andrew Grimm

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
I had a great time in NH. The clinic, fellowship, food, and presentation were all terrific.

Overall it was a good time.

You've been talking a lot of trash about Jaye when he was in NH.

I didnt state anything that was not true. Was not going there until Jaye kept pushing it with with his insults to me on this thread. Go back and read the sequence of events. I do not understand why Jaye thinks it is OK to insult people. Maybe you guys think it is all in fun, I do not.

If you had such a problem with the way Jaye was acting then why didn't you say anything to his face? I never saw any indications that you were upset or offended. You appeared to be having a great time(?).

Andrew Grimm


Avoided a fight, probably should have kept my mouth shut here also. I apologize.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Phil Armitage in gray

re: A good time was had by all.... 'cept me.

Overall it was a good time.

How can you say that? Nobody puked on your boots, inulted your momma, run off with your daughter, kicked out your porch light, threw an ashtray through your wall, discovered that whiskey does not improve fighting ability, or even got throwed in jail. All things considered, it sounds like a pretty plain vanilla time to me.

I didnt state anything that was not true. Was not going there until Jaye kept pushing it with with his insults to me on this thread. Go back and read the sequence of events. I do not understand why Jaye thinks it is OK to insult people. Maybe you guys think it is all in fun, I do not.

Did mean 'ol Jaye get to Snookums? Get it through your head that NOBODY can insult you when it comes to learning! They can call you a no shoeing doofus, tell you what they'd have done if they'd been doing it, show you that they can take a five to a one when you've left one swinging leg lame, but that ain't an insult, that's learning. Leave your damn ego at the door when somebody's trying to teach you something, you might learn a little something.

Avoided a fight, probably should have kept my mouth shut here also. I apologize.

As I see it, you got your feelings hurt because you chose to become insulted, not because you were insulted. If you can't give as good as you get when hanging out with farriers, you're in the wrong trade. If somebody tells you you've made a mistake and you can't defend your actions, you've porbably made a mistake. If you can defend your actions, good on you, and the other fellow learns a little something. (Be aware that dogma don't do much for learning, farriery is about what works and what don't.) Either way, there's no "insult" involved, it's about learning.

Grow some hide and quit whining.

As to the stuff you brought up about the bahavior of the folks at y'all's clinic, it sounds like they was having a nice time. Did they not invite you along?

You probably wouldn't like Texas; or, for that matter, the South. :)

[Forgewizard]

If the boys have quit fighting & it is safe to enter the playground, I'd like to offer my experiences with this wedging issue.

Most often the horses that need wedging are ones with LTLH (long toe low heel), predominantly horses with crushed heels.Owners often proclaim," My horse has no heel, don't cut any heel, the vet said to wedge them up and put an egg bar shoe on."

Mm-hmm is my usual reply. then I point out how the horse's heels are in fact quite long but crushed, curled inward, sometimes cracked and well forward of the ideal line of concussion.

I'll talk to them about how every step continues to curl the heels. If a wedge is applied to the curled heels, the heels will keep crushing. So it is imperative that the heels get trimmed. If at all possible the heels will restructure quickest if ALL the crushed curl can be removed.

the problem I encounter the most is that the heels have become the focal point and these hooves have many other issues too. Usually a long toe, or a toe that is too for forward. Flared weakened hoof walls. flattened or even convex Sole, nonexistent bars, prolapsed frog. Sometimes ever a contracted frog and grossly distorted front of the hoof.

Now the poor horse owner thinks their horse is crippled for life. Sometimes they say," Well my last farrier never said the horse had all those problems." To which I reply." I can see that." At this point I'd like to say some very strong words but usually I'll say something like," Some folks are so used to seeing a flat hoof that a more correct hoof seems abnormal."

So to help this horse we need to:

1) get his heels engaging the ground correctly. This can be done by trimming the heels to amore strong point. On really run forward heels this cannot be done the first visit. a more strong point means at least to the buttress and rasped level.

2) stop the hoof from prolapsing. the weekend hook wall is allowing the bony column to descend. A yielding but firm sole packing will cushion the sole and bony column. a frog support pad will stop the hoof from further prolapse and also help Support the bony column.

3) eliminate or reduce the torque at the toe. A shoe set back from the toe and rolled or rocked (if the hoof allows) is a great Start. I will often settle shoe backmost it on and remove the overhanging toe. I let the owner know that the hook will look ugly for a few go arounds, but the hoof will begin to function better.

4) improve the hoof to pastern alignment. When I use a wedge pad I always use a full pad, I don't use a rim wedge. Mainly because I don't want the hoof to fall through the shoe. And that will happen if a hoof like this only gets a rim wedge. Besides a full wedge, I'll also do some sort or frog support or yielding bar support. the frog support can be an additional frog support pad. Whatever is used it is necessary to fill the area between the heelbranches or else the hoof just sinks into the soil to the level of the flat pad.

I'll put these horses on a 4 week interval until the next visit. this gives me a handle on the hoof growth. If the hoof is responding well often a reset is in order now. Sometimes we have to wait & week or two but I never go to 8 weeks with these horses.

If the horse is fairly young often the hooves recover nicely. But if the horse is aged and has been trampling his hooves for a long time sometimes we only get halfway to a recovered hoof.

If the area between the shoe heel branches is filled on the GROUND surface I haven't encountered a problem with further crushing of the heels.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Kim

[Phil Armitage]

Phil Armitage in gray

re: A good time was had by all.... 'cept me.

Overall it was a good time.

How can you say that? Nobody puked on your boots, inulted your momma, run off with your daughter, kicked out your porch light, threw an ashtray through your wall, discovered that whiskey does not improve fighting ability, or even got throwed in jail. All things considered, it sounds like a pretty plain vanilla time to me.

I didnt state anything that was not true. Was not going there until Jaye kept pushing it with with his insults to me on this thread. Go back and read the sequence of events. I do not understand why Jaye thinks it is OK to insult people. Maybe you guys think it is all in fun, I do not.

Did mean 'ol Jaye get to Snookums? Get it through your head that NOBODY can insult you when it comes to learning! They can call you a no shoeing doofus, tell you what they'd have done if they'd been doing it, show you that they can take a five to a one when you've left one swinging leg lame, but that ain't an insult, that's learning. Leave your damn ego at the door when somebody's trying to teach you something, you might learn a little something.

Avoided a fight, probably should have kept my mouth shut here also. I apologize.

As I see it, you got your feelings hurt because you chose to become insulted, not because you were insulted. If you can't give as good as you get when hanging out with farriers, you're in the wrong trade. If somebody tells you you've made a mistake and you can't defend your actions, you've porbably made a mistake. If you can defend your actions, good on you, and the other fellow learns a little something. (Be aware that dogma don't do much for learning, farriery is about what works and what don't.) Either way, there's no "insult" involved, it's about learning.

Grow some hide and quit whining.

As to the stuff you brought up about the bahavior of the folks at y'all's clinic, it sounds like they was having a nice time. Did they not invite you along?

You probably wouldn't like Texas; or, for that matter, the South. :)

My hide is plenty thick enough. The South and the Great State of Texas has been pretty good to me, would go back in a heart beat.

What works and don't work in farrier depends on what is wrong. This is beggenning to take on the same tone as a barefoot discussion.

[Gary Hill]

Hey Phil, we always capitalize the G & S in the Great State of Texas! :D Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Phil, we always capitalize the G & S in the Great State of Texas! :D Gary

Ooops, sorry about that. The Great State of Texas

How is that, this should make up for it.

Went back and fixed it in the original post also. :D

[Gary Hill]

Mobetta! You are forgiven! How bout them COWBOYS! I like Peyton except when he plays the BOYS!

[Phil Armitage]

Mobetta! You are forgiven! How bout them COWBOYS! I like Peyton except when he plays the BOYS!

How about that, I watched the game right after the Pats smoked Greenbay. Your new QB looks great. I knew Drew would not last, he hasnt changed since we got rid of him.

Hey do you guys call Bill the "Tuna" also? He is a great coach.

[Gary Hill]

Yes, they call him the Tuna? Where ever that came from I don't know?

[Forgewizard]

Duplicated intentionally to get back on topic....: (mayb there ought to be a "boxing ring " thread for the guys that want to duke it out? - was enjoying the information exchange at the START of this thread. Regards, Kim


Re: Does wedging increases forces on the heel
If the boys have quit fighting & it is safe to enter the playground, I'd like to offer my experiences with this wedging issue.

Most often the horses that need wedging are ones with LTLH (long toe low heel), predominantly horses with crushed heels.Owners often proclaim," My horse has no heel, don't cut any heel, the vet said to wedge them up and put an egg bar shoe on."

Mm-hmm is my usual reply. then I point out how the horse's heels are in fact quite long but crushed, curled inward, sometimes cracked and well forward of the ideal line of concussion.

I'll talk to them about how every step continues to curl the heels. If a wedge is applied to the curled heels, the heels will keep crushing. So it is imperative that the heels get trimmed. If at all possible the heels will restructure quickest if ALL the crushed curl can be removed.

the problem I encounter the most is that the heels have become the focal point and these hooves have many other issues too. Usually a long toe, or a toe that is too for forward. Flared weakened hoof walls. flattened or even convex Sole, nonexistent bars, prolapsed frog. Sometimes ever a contracted frog and grossly distorted front of the hoof.

Now the poor horse owner thinks their horse is crippled for life. Sometimes they say," Well my last farrier never said the horse had all those problems." To which I reply." I can see that." At this point I'd like to say some very strong words but usually I'll say something like," Some folks are so used to seeing a flat hoof that a more correct hoof seems abnormal."

So to help this horse we need to:

1) get his heels engaging the ground correctly. This can be done by trimming the heels to amore strong point. On really run forward heels this cannot be done the first visit. a more strong point means at least to the buttress and rasped level.

2) stop the hoof from prolapsing. the weekend hook wall is allowing the bony column to descend. A yielding but firm sole packing will cushion the sole and bony column. a frog support pad will stop the hoof from further prolapse and also help Support the bony column.

3) eliminate or reduce the torque at the toe. A shoe set back from the toe and rolled or rocked (if the hoof allows) is a great Start. I will often settle shoe backmost it on and remove the overhanging toe. I let the owner know that the hook will look ugly for a few go arounds, but the hoof will begin to function better.

4) improve the hoof to pastern alignment. When I use a wedge pad I always use a full pad, I don't use a rim wedge. Mainly because I don't want the hoof to fall through the shoe. And that will happen if a hoof like this only gets a rim wedge. Besides a full wedge, I'll also do some sort or frog support or yielding bar support. the frog support can be an additional frog support pad. Whatever is used it is necessary to fill the area between the heelbranches or else the hoof just sinks into the soil to the level of the flat pad.

I'll put these horses on a 4 week interval until the next visit. this gives me a handle on the hoof growth. If the hoof is responding well often a reset is in order now. Sometimes we have to wait & week or two but I never go to 8 weeks with these horses.

If the horse is fairly young often the hooves recover nicely. But if the horse is aged and has been trampling his hooves for a long time sometimes we only get halfway to a recovered hoof.

If the area between the shoe heel branches is filled on the GROUND surface I haven't encountered a problem with further crushing of the heels.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Kim

[fairweatherforge]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about all this. By Reillyshoes definition from another forum: the definition of an underrun heel is the orientation of the horn tubules at the heel to be five degrees lower than that of the horn tubules at the toe.

I feel that in lt/lh there is "laxity" in both the deep flexor and superficial flexor. Causing the lt/lh. In this situation, the tubules would all be at the same angle from heel to toe.

In underrun heels (reillyshoe definition) there is "laxity" in the deep flexor, causing the low angle at the toe. Then I feel there is a "tight" superficial, causing a shift in weight from the heel to the quarters. Which is where we get the angle change from heel to toe.

When a shoe is applied, the forces on the wall are increased. When a wedge is added (no matter where, toe or heel or quarter) force on the wall is increased further. The wedge is and extension of the wall. So if I were to trim a foot and leave a high point at each heel that would extremely increase the forces to that area. Because technically those points are acting like a wedge. So I feel wedgeing underrun heels does increase forces.

And I realize you can spread those forces around to decrease the force to one paticular area. But to raise that foot in the first place you do have to increase force to do it. I'm not suggesting wedgeing is correct or incorrect. Just that it increases forces.

This is just my little theory. I'm sure you guys will let me know if I'm on the right track or made a wrong turn somewhere.

[Jaye Perry]

Jaye Perry-Yep you have, I am requesting from Baron and or Rick to ban me from These forums. You Win _HACK__:D ___ !!!!

My request wasn't denied so I will, by request, make it known here that Phil's experience level doesn't coincide with his diatribes.
Had a hard time with this, I don't call many people "Hacks", situational things considered in experienced cases have releavance. No experience on Phils's part but relavant to his diatribes. His diatribes were on these forums way before the 'New" format, his adorement for NBS was there but not in the pic posted or actual work...
My 20+ years experience or his so called 7, you decide......




Phil in Blue background>>I was refered to this owner by NB, she looked into it on advice from a friend. Horse seems to be very prone to injury and off more than on. <<


The pic that you show and have shown is, again no where near NBS.



>>The owner is willing to trailer the horse to Jaye's clinic in Oct. We have radiographs, pictures and history. Would be a good one to talk about.<<

>>This horse will be at Jaye's clinic. 9/9/06<<


Yes she was. Ill mannered and ill conformed, but his mother loves him

Glad she did. I had an opportunity to examine your work very closely. For one who preaches sole plane, M/L balance and one who accused me of trying to impress upon young minds on how to trim feet flat. Yours was one of the worst cases of Right Handed Farrier’s disease I and others had EVER SEEN!!!

For a preacher of good methodologies and astuteness; your words here sure as hell didn’t show in your work. Along with the disease there were 2 St Croix Lites 0’s nailed on this horse, short in the heels and looked like the were just opened an nailed up. No forging skills were seen in these shoes. Old sole pressure apparent.

To shoe this horse comfortable for the situation we, the whole crowd, had to beg borrow and steal from other’s stock in their trucks and shop because the preacher had nothing. Excuse me, a pair of thin pads, that were not suitable for the application for a horse that needed profile away from the ground.



The horse was over shod, it had to be. Using the bigger shoes and forging a good roll and rocking the toe from the second nail holes forward the break points were assured. Also trimming of the feet as to “let them relax” was called for; see previous paragraphs for WHY. The shoes were fit full and long enough but both the medial heel of the RF and the Lateral heel of the LF were hammered down to compensate for the imbalances that could not be trimmed OUT of the heels/ feet. The hinds were shod because you could make the horse “TEE TEE” on himself when palpated; enough said on the shoeing protocol.







>>I am the same in person as I am on this forum. Blunt and opinionated, no secrets with me. 9/14/06<<


No, you have and still are a lying about your pureness in the Farrier trade. It’s the ole “Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk” thing.

I for one didn’t care how or how much or what the time, money or aggravation, but I for one wanted to see The Great Phil’s work, or as the sub- headline states :

"Extraordinarily Senior Member”.







>>I think what makes this forum work is the honesty and bluntness. I am confident that anyone can be assured the information they get will be good, if not it will be challenged by someone. 9/6/06<<



Exactly the point I was trying to convey until your panties got into a wad. “ The point is and still remains that "you”, whether you were to lazy or looking for a Hero badge, “didn’t shoe the horse per the X-Rays".

Your excuse of “The horse was past due” is a cop out, I know it , you and others here know it.





>>Your right, just because someone posts a lot does not mean they know what they are doing 9/4/06<<


Looking back at one of Phil’s most recent diatribes here on the forums and the responses to “wedges”; I thought about some things He calls realities. I totally agree with Phil's’ remark here, it shows his true shoeing experiences. It also shows us that Phil will diatribe to prove his book knowledge or an obscure point or at least have the last word; not his hands on abilities he seems to be is so proud of.



Jaye
404/964-4970

[Phil Armitage]

Tom Stoval, I just read Jayes evaluation. See thick hide no whineing. :D

[Phil Armitage]

My request wasn't denied so I will, by request, make it known here that Phil's experience level doesn't coincide with his diatribes.
Had a hard time with this, I don't call many people "Hacks", situational things considered in experienced cases have releavance. No experience on Phils's part but relavant to his diatribes. His diatribes were on these forums way before the 'New" format, his adorement for NBS was there but not in the pic posted or actual work...
My 20+ years experience or his so called 7, you decide......



The pic that you show and have shown is, again no where near NBS.


Yes she was. Ill mannered and ill conformed, but his mother loves him

Glad she did. I had an opportunity to examine your work very closely. For one who preaches sole plane, M/L balance and one who accused me of trying to impress upon young minds on how to trim feet flat. Yours was one of the worst cases of Right Handed Farrier’s disease I and others had EVER SEEN!!!

For a preacher of good methodologies and astuteness; your words here sure as hell didn’t show in your work. Along with the disease there were 2 St Croix Lites 0’s nailed on this horse, short in the heels and looked like the were just opened an nailed up. No forging skills were seen in these shoes. Old sole pressure apparent.

To shoe this horse comfortable for the situation we, the whole crowd, had to beg borrow and steal from other’s stock in their trucks and shop because the preacher had nothing. Excuse me, a pair of thin pads, that were not suitable for the application for a horse that needed profile away from the ground.



The horse was over shod, it had to be. Using the bigger shoes and forging a good roll and rocking the toe from the second nail holes forward the break points were assured. Also trimming of the feet as to “let them relax” was called for; see previous paragraphs for WHY. The shoes were fit full and long enough but both the medial heel of the RF and the Lateral heel of the LF were hammered down to compensate for the imbalances that could not be trimmed OUT of the heels/ feet. The hinds were shod because you could make the horse “TEE TEE” on himself when palpated; enough said on the shoeing protocol.






No, you have and still are a lying about your pureness in the Farrier trade. It’s the ole “Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk” thing.

I for one didn’t care how or how much or what the time, money or aggravation, but I for one wanted to see The Great Phil’s work, or as the sub- headline states :

"Extraordinarily Senior Member”.







Exactly the point I was trying to convey until your panties got into a wad. “ The point is and still remains that "you”, whether you were to lazy or looking for a Hero badge, “didn’t shoe the horse per the X-Rays".

Your excuse of “The horse was past due” is a cop out, I know it , you and others here know it.




Looking back at one of Phil’s most recent diatribes here on the forums and the responses to “wedges”; I thought about some things He calls realities. I totally agree with Phil's’ remark here, it shows his true shoeing experiences. It also shows us that Phil will diatribe to prove his book knowledge or an obscure point or at least have the last word; not his hands on abilities he seems to be is so proud of.



Jaye
404/964-4970




Jaye, I have a left handed buddy that is willing to shoe the horse for awhile to get him balanced. :D

[SlowShoe]

Jay: Yours was one of the worst cases of Right Handed Farrier’s disease I and others had EVER SEEN!!!

Phil: Jaye, I have a left handed buddy that is willing to shoe the horse for awhile to get him balanced.

Well Phil I have to give you credit on that one, thats the funniest post all month. :D

[Forgewizard]

Eric,

Don't take this to be a smart alec question, but I am curious:

Where does the tension on the tendons go? IF the horse's full weight is on the limb isn't there tension on the tendons? Only when the limb is off the ground and flexed is the tension releived.

Can you point me in the direction of any particular studies showing that tension in the tendons is actually reduced by wedging?

I can understand wedging's action for alignment. And if the wedges are applied to a trimmed heel that is flat or where the tubules have, through the trimming, become more perpendicular to the ground, how the wedge can help the heels redirect their growth. But I think the reduction of any strain on the tendon tension would be reduced at the moment of breakover ( well, just before actually). SO the tension reduction is more a reduction in FOrce necessary to turn over the hoof, not just support the limb ( ie, the horse).

Regards,
Kim

[Phil Armitage]

Jaye Perry Said: Exactly the point I was trying to convey until your panties got into a wad. “ The point is and still remains that "you”, whether you were to lazy or looking for a Hero badge, “didn’t shoe the horse per the X-Rays".

Your excuse of “The horse was past due” is a cop out, I know it , you and others here know it.

I admit my panties were in a wad. Now that I have them unwaded lets talk.

I am assumeing your talking about the horse we did in NH?

First not looking for a hero badge just shoeing a horse. Shoeing is how I make a liveing, not my life. My pride and joy is my family, I will flip burgers, pump gas, drive a garbage truck, cut lawns or whatever to make ends meet.

I never said the horse was past due I did him 18 Sep. You saw him 27 Oct. 5 1/2 weeks. He was barefoot from 29 June to 18 Sep. On 18 Sep. there was nothing to trim, I used a St. Criox lt. or KH SX-7 don't recall with JC0 nails. Because not much to nail to and did not want to quick him.

The first time I shod him per the X-Rays and discussion with the Vet was 24 April and then reset him on 24 May. 4 weeks.

This is what I did on 24 April.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000070.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/IM000072.jpg

Tried to give you the shoeing history and problems he was haveing, but I quess you were too buisy looking for what I might have done wrong.

No problem, we can clear it up on this forum where we both get a chance to speak.

[Phil Armitage]

I quess I can say I was transistion him from barefoot to shod. :rolleyes:

[fairweatherforge]

[QUOTE=Forgewizard]Eric,

Don't take this to be a smart alec question, but I am curious:

Where does the tension on the tendons go? IF the horse's full weight is on the limb isn't there tension on the tendons? Only when the limb is off the ground and flexed is the tension releived.

Can you point me in the direction of any particular studies showing that tension in the tendons is actually reduced by wedging?

I can understand wedging's action for alignment. And if the wedges are applied to a trimmed heel that is flat or where the tubules have, through the trimming, become more perpendicular to the ground, how the wedge can help the heels redirect their growth. But I think the reduction of any strain on the tendon tension would be reduced at the moment of breakover ( well, just before actually). SO the tension reduction is more a reduction in FOrce necessary to turn over the hoof, not just support the limb ( ie, the horse).

Kim,

If there's so much tension on the tendons, why can I put a wedge pad under the toe and the heels still touch the ground? Can you show me the study where trimming the heels flat actually changes the direction they're growing out of the coronary band (in the case of underrun heels). Can you show me a way in which a foot which is trimmed with the heels touching the ground can miraculously raise off the ground without force being applied. How would you explain the difference between a club foot and a low heel foot? I would simply say that the club foot has more tension on the deep flexor than the low heeled foot. Can you explain to me why raising the angle of the coffin bone to allign hpa is more important than leaving the coffin bone parallel to the ground (or a degree or to above parallel which ever your preferred theory). What are you gaining from alligning hpa? What are you losing from wedgeing the foot?

[reillyshoe]

kim,
K.Thompson did a study at Glock, I believe itis on the article liston this site, assessing the effect of wedging on DDFT, SDF and sus. Denoix did a study showing the effect of wedging on superficial flexor strain in live horses. I think Wilson also did a study showing wedging as a method of lessening strain from the DDFT as it applies to the navicular.
go to www.pubmed.com for more

[Joey Aczon]

Forgewizard, unless my anatomy is mixed up weight support is done through the check ligament and the suspensory ligament, not the ddft. So when the foot is wedged the actuall distance that the ddft has to span is shortened thereby reliveing strain.

[Joey Aczon]

Eric, check ligament and suspensory are not attached to the coffin bone, hence the ability to wedge the foot backward and have the heels on the ground

[Forgewizard]

Thanks reillyshoe, I'll look them over.

Eric posts in blue (my answers in black):
If there's so much tension on the tendons, why can I put a wedge pad under the toe and the heels still touch the ground?

Because the muscles int the limb lengthen to follow the level of the ground. same way as our heels will easily dip lower than our toes when we step into a hole, but does this equate to EXCESSIVE strain of the flexor tendon?

Can you show me the study where trimming the heels flat actually changes the direction they're growing out of the coronary band (in the case of underrun heels).

Umm, NO, unless I show you pix of some results of my own work - that is if I have specific ones with wedge pads. I'll look. As to an actual published study? I am not aware of one. But I have seen in my wn work that when the hoof heels get trimmed so the wall tubules become more perpendicular the result is a change in the growth that can be seen at the heel bulb hairline and subsequently the heel walls growing down. Now I am on a photo quest.

Can you show me a way in which a foot which is trimmed with the heels touching the ground can miraculously raise off the ground without force being applied.

I am not certain I understand this question. But I have seen instances where horses with tall heels and contracted tendons (therefore contracted muscles) will have hoof heels with air between them and the ground until the muscles lengthen or tetracyclene kicks in and the tendon relaxes.

Have been working with a mini with this issue. Her feet were untrimmed for the first year of her life, she was very fine boned and extra mini and kept in sand ( go figure, this being Florida and all) her hooves were severely contracted and very upright ( soup can like if you will).

I trimmed what I could of the contracted heels, debrided the thrush and shortened the hoof's depth a little. The little thing was on tippy toes with daylight under her heels.

I got the caretakers to put the little filly on the concrete as much as possible and came back in two weeks and did another round, and repeated again in two weeks.

Now she is on a 6 week interval with relatively normal, but narrow hooves. Will she ever get broader hooves? Probably not. Did she have "club feet"? Most folks would probably say yes when we started.

I think several things happened in her case. One , when she was young her hooves and tendons were actually more supportive and her very small and lightweight body didn't apply enough downward forces to even out those strengths.

The soft ground certainly didn't apply any upward forces or support. the lack of farrier attention during her early age was no help.

But with aggressive farrier attention, owner action and an increase in her body weight her hooves have remodeled and become more normal.

How would you explain the difference between a club foot and a low heel foot?

In the basest of descriptions a club foot would be a hoof with heels that are more vertical than necessary, I think the term club foot gets a bit overused. My mentor coached me to think of a club foot as one being 65 degrees or higher, with a dished dorsal wall and tall heel walls. Actually I agree with Rooney in that humans get club feet, horses have upright hooves or stumpy feet.

While a low heel hoof ( are we speaking of an underrun low heel hoof?) would be a hoof with heel walls that have grown forward. Again usually with a dished dorsal wall, but the toe too is extended forward.

Since I attended Dr. Deb Bennett's seminar, i've changed my view of the Hi/lo syndrome or limb length disparity as being pertaining to the limbs only; instead I have learned to view the entire horse and can easily see how the horse's posture and stance creates the limb disparity and thus the hoof shape disparity.

I would simply say that the club foot has more tension on the deep flexor than the low heeled foot.

If that is so, then would you approach a club/lo horse with wedges for both hooves?

Can you explain to me why raising the angle of the coffin bone to allign hpa is more important than leaving the coffin bone parallel to the ground (or a degree or to above parallel which ever your preferred theory).

I am inclined to agree with the school of thought that P3 is NOT actually ground parallel - it is more like 6 degrees higher at the back than the front in order that there is room for the digital cushion and frog to do their jobs and prevent damage to the fragile wings of p3.

So with an aligned P3,2 &1 the entire line of concussion throughout the entire limb gets a good start at the moment of hoof impact. The impact of the limb is NOT absorbed just at the fetlock - it travels up the entire limb all the way through to the horse's limb attachment to the spine. This is a fct that often gets overlooked. While the fetlock may be a crucial joint for some shock absorption if you get to observe a horse's limb landing in slow motion , you'll notice that at the moment of impact the limb is trying to be lined up.

If the hoof capsule form prevents this alignment, the soft tissues like ligaments and tendons and muscles have to work harder to GET alignment in order for the skeleton to do its job.

What are you gaining from alligning hpa?
Efficiency of movement for the horse. This will equate to longevity of the joints.

What are you losing from wedgeing the foot?

If the hoof is properly supported and breakover correctly engaged, while wedged, I don't beleive the horse loses anything.

Regards,
Kim

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Head 2 Toe in gray

Forgewizard, unless my anatomy is mixed up weight support is done through the check ligament and the suspensory ligament, not the ddft. So when the foot is wedged the actuall distance that the ddft has to span is shortened thereby reliveing strain.

South of the carpus, other than bone, weight support is a function of the DDFT, SFT, and suspensory ligament. If you want to put a standing horse's ergot on the ground, you've got to cut all three, one or two won't do. :)

[Phil Armitage]

Yestersay, I got laterals of the horse I posted with long toe/low heels, underrun and contracted heels and broken back HPA. I will be reshoeing him in another week or so. Would like to here opinions based on these X-Rays on shoe placement, type of shoe, wedgeing and breakover. I had a great discussion with the Vet and he really likes the idea of trimming heels back to healthy straight horn, realigning HPA with wedge and frog support and setting the shoes back. He was glad to hear farriers are willing to do this. Did not discuss these X-Rays with him yet, I got these by E-mail late yesterday afternoon. I am looking at them and studying them for the first time this morning.

Can we have too much breakover? What if any reprocutions would too much breakover cause or wedgeing cause on this particular case? Back half of P3 looks close to the ground. Could this cause pain with cuncussion from the ground? Is the rim pad and Equipak protecting this area better? P2 looks subluxated to me, does it to anyone else?

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0151.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/LFLateralview.jpg

[Rick Burten]

Would like to here opinions based on these X-Rays on shoe placement, type of shoe, wedgeing and breakover.
I'd be partial to using the EDSS package. I'd set the breakover to occur about 1/4 inch infront of a line dropped vertically from the distal leading edge of p3(as seen radiograpically), or just about where your second nail exits sthe hoof wall. I'd pull the heels of the shoe back to a point where a vertical line dropped from the bulbs intersects the ground. The wedge pad, andy additions to create ground contact for the frog, and then whichever rails got the HPA further aligned and the horse hitting heel first . Absent that, I'd use whatever shoe I could fabricate that fulfilled those parameters and then add an apropriate wedge, either full with a frog prosthesis or bar wedge with frog prosthesis and SilPak, EquiPak etc in the back of the hoof.
He was glad to hear farriers are willing to do this.
He was under the impression we don't? Why?

Can we have too much breakover?
It Depends.
What if any reprocutions would too much breakover cause?
It depends, but stride irregularities, efficiency , etc are possibilities.

Rick

[reillyshoe]

I think most of us can relate to trimming a foal with an upright foot, and finding the heels don't reach the ground. In fact, the heels might not reach the ground if the opposite front front foot is held in the air. In this instance, 100% of the horses weight is on the front half of the foot. Over time, we could expect this foot to deform with a toe dish. The exact mechanics could be debated, although I would suggest the increased percentage of weight to be a contributing factor.
Once the inferior check is cut (allowing more length from the DDFT) the heels reach the ground easily. While I don't know the percentage, I am confident if stating that more weight is now supported by the back half of the foot.

My research on underrun heels (using Tracy Turner's definition of 5 degree difference between toe and heel angles) has found that there is an inverse relationship between toe dishing and the severity of underrun heels. That is, distortion (at least statistically) occurs in either one half of the foot (front)or the other (back). As toe dishing increases, the severity of underrun heels is lessened. A foot with no dishing in the toe can be expected to have more distortion in the heels in the form of being underrun.
Now, interestingly, toe angle did not correlate to underrun heels by itself. One could argue that toe angle and DDFT tension would be assumed to be linked. I am still pondering that part of the theory. Another point relating to this thread is that wedging should, by removing DDFT strain, increase the force on the heels and would therefor be contraindicated- "crushing" the heels over time. Another research project I am involved with would suggest this to be correct. Wedging increases force on the heels, but only with open heeled shoes. Wedged bar shoes DID NOT increase the force on the caudal 1/3 of the foot. I would speculate that the cir***ferential nature of the bar shoe allows more even distribution of force across the foot (anyone cold shaping a bar shoe on the anvil can acknowledge that it resonates differently from an open heeled shoe).

Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I have some data, but I have also filled in the blanks when necessary (I hope I have been clear on which parts). I am open to other interpretations of the data,so let me know what you think. Tom, perhaps you could check with your good friend Archimedes?

[Phil Armitage]

He was under the impression we don't? Why?
Rick

Not under the impression we all don't and admits he is learning about feet. He is just glad to see farriers willing to set the shoes back, use wedges, frog support etc and talke to the Vet. He has seen farriers not willing to do these things. Nothing new we all have seen that also. I was totaly unwilling to use egg bars or glueons for a long time. This Vet is very approachable.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

reillyshoe in gray, deletia

Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I have some data, but I have also filled in the blanks when necessary (I hope I have been clear on which parts). I am open to other interpretations of the data,so let me know what you think. Tom, perhaps you could check with your good friend Archimedes?

Pat, beyond the obvious stuff stuff expressed in the most general of terms, I suspect you're going to have a helluva time identifying and quantifying the factors that impact the application, direction, and duration of forces at work within the hoof capsule. The damn near infinite number of variables that can have an influence on the forces at work within the hoof capsule might drive a teetotaler to single malt. I checked with Archimedes and he said he'd help all he could, but that you might consider the fate of another gentleman of Greek extraction - Sisyphus. :)

[reillyshoe]

Tom,
Ha! Do you perceive Sisyphus to be wise or a fool? I glad you appreciate the dilemma.
You are, as usual, correct with regard to you assessment. Does wedging affect different types of feet differently? Undoubtedly. Timing changes, loading changes, material differences- it is truly a lifetimes endeavor.
I might as well start rolling that rock uphill....

[Forgewizard]

Reilly,

If you wedge that rock, it won't roll backwards on top of you!

:D

regards,
Kim

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

reillyshoe in gray

Ha! Do you perceive Sisyphus to be wise or a fool? I glad you appreciate the dilemma.

I perceive Sisyphus as an early researcher. One version of the myth says he anged the gods by stealing their knowledge and got hisself condemned to pushing that rock uphill - so I figured you'n him had a lot in common. :)

[Jason Maki]

Mr. Stoval,
My girlfriends father is a "math guy", teaches mathmatics at the college level; the kind were my head hurts just looking at the damn thing. Apparently equations make staight, squiggly or parabolic lines on some imaginary graph only men such as he can see. It is all beyond my ken. I asked him what it would take to graph and chart a balanced, loaded hoof on the x, y and z axis, then account for the mallable nature of the capsule,, how capsular changes affect the bone, vice versa and et al. I began to explain the rudiments of how the digit worked, after two minutes, he had the exact same look I had had as he attempted to explain to me how an equation makes a squigly line! i told him I wanted to make a model which showed how forces equalize in a balanced foot. He told me it would be a huge job and a mathmatical and biomechanical nightmare... horseshoeing is really rocket science.
Jason

[J.H. shoeing]

Jason

That is what I thought when you told me about trying to make the model too. And I can barely run a calculator. Just imagine how fast you lost me.

[Forgewizard]

Jason,

Dr. James Rooney already has such a model, I am trying to make heads and tails out of on this site! Check out this link:


http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/rooney1/mechanicsoffootandshoe.htm

Rooney does say several times, it may take the MAth challenged (such as myself) a couple readings of this to get the equations.

Funny thing is I can understand what he is saying, really without having to do the necesary math. Well, at least I am pretty sure I get it.

Regards,
Kim

[Mike Ferrara]

Mr. Stoval,
My girlfriends father is a "math guy", teaches mathmatics at the college level; the kind were my head hurts just looking at the damn thing. Apparently equations make staight, squiggly or parabolic lines on some imaginary graph only men such as he can see. It is all beyond my ken. I asked him what it would take to graph and chart a balanced, loaded hoof on the x, y and z axis, then account for the mallable nature of the capsule,, how capsular changes affect the bone, vice versa and et al. I began to explain the rudiments of how the digit worked, after two minutes, he had the exact same look I had had as he attempted to explain to me how an equation makes a squigly line! i told him I wanted to make a model which showed how forces equalize in a balanced foot. He told me it would be a huge job and a mathmatical and biomechanical nightmare... horseshoeing is really rocket science.
Jason

Math doesn't always do a good or straight forward job of describing the natural world.

The stresses and strains in a complex object like a hoof usually wouldn't be modeled with a single equation but more likely something like finite element analysis (FEA) or something. In FEA, a computer model is built deviding the object into many seperate pieces, with all the relevant assumptions for each piece defined. The equations for each piece are solved simultaniously each being dependant on the next. Then as theoretical streeses are applied, the response of transfer function of the object is predicted.

In my limited experience with FEA (I didn't do the analysis but rather was one of thge ones using the analysis), the predicted output is usually VERY different from what is observed experimentally. The reason is that the model just doesn't (can't) accurately represent the real object. It's still useful in design or doing what-if's because it establishes a reference (a relative measure) even though you know that the real life response will differ.

Usually if one wanted to use such an analysis, they would just hire an angineering firm or consultant who specializes in it. The software is incredibly expensive and learning to use it isn't easy even if you have the technical background to understand it....you just hire it done.

[Rick Burten]

Considering out discussion, I thought this might interest some:

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2006/11/new-research-raising-heels-on-front-vs.html

Rick

[fairweatherforge]

Kim-Black
Eric-Blue

Because the muscles int the limb lengthen to follow the level of the ground. same way as our heels will easily dip lower than our toes when we step into a hole, but does this equate to EXCESSIVE strain of the flexor tendon?

So as the muscle lengthened, tension must have been reduced to the tendon in the process. Or do you feel its just an on/off switch?

Umm, NO, unless I show you pix of some results of my own work - that is if I have specific ones with wedge pads. I'll look. As to an actual published study? I am not aware of one. But I have seen in my wn work that when the hoof heels get trimmed so the wall tubules become more perpendicular the result is a change in the growth that can be seen at the heel bulb hairline and subsequently the heel walls growing down. Now I am on a photo quest.

You might have misspoke their. Trimming the heels shouldn't make the tubules more perpendicular to the ground. Wedgeing them up should make them more perpendicular to the ground.

I am not certain I understand this question. But I have seen instances where horses with tall heels and contracted tendons (therefore contracted muscles) will have hoof heels with air between them and the ground until the muscles lengthen or tetracyclene kicks in and the tendon relaxes.

I was just speaking in the most basic form. If a heel or foot or anything is on the ground it takes force to lift it off the ground.

If that is so, then would you approach a club/lo horse with wedges for both hooves?

I see where your going with this. My answer is no. The muscle is contracting in the club foot putting more tension on the tendon. Which is why there's so much heel growth. I do beleive wedgeing that foot would decrease tendon tension for a short amount of time. Depending on the severity of the club the muscle would eventually contract enough to resume full tension on the tendon.

I am inclined to agree with the school of thought that P3 is NOT actually ground parallel - it is more like 6 degrees higher at the back than the front in order that there is room for the digital cushion and frog to do their jobs and prevent damage to the fragile wings of p3.

I am of the opinion that there is no set angle that p3 should be at. I wouldn't wedge a low heel foot up to 6 degrees and I wouldn't trim a club foot so it was parallel. I would attempt to follow Dr. Bowker's physiological trim.
http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm

So with an aligned P3,2 &1 the entire line of concussion throughout the entire limb gets a good start at the moment of hoof impact. The impact of the limb is NOT absorbed just at the fetlock - it travels up the entire limb all the way through to the horse's limb attachment to the spine. This is a fct that often gets overlooked. While the fetlock may be a crucial joint for some shock absorption if you get to observe a horse's limb landing in slow motion , you'll notice that at the moment of impact the limb is trying to be lined up.

The key word here is crucial. Take a look at jets before they had fetlocks added. They didn't fare so well. You could also look at some gait analysis and see when an upright foot gets the toe trimmed while leaving all the heel, though p3,2 & 1 are alligned, the fetlock doesn't drop properly and there is a jarring effect on the limb. Actually, you can see it with the naked eye.

This will equate to longevity of the joints.

[COLOR=Blue]Depends on what angle all those joints are lining up in. If they're not at a low enough angle to allow the pastern to drop they're not going to last very long.

If the hoof is properly supported and breakover correctly engaged, while wedged, I don't beleive the horse loses anything.

proper trim, conformation, and maladies are things I would consider.

[Phil Armitage]

Considering out discussion, I thought this might interest some:

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2006/11/new-research-raising-heels-on-front-vs.html

Rick

Rick this is interesting, I recently pulled the shoes off a horse that has hock issues. It is common to pull the hind shoes for the winter, however people keep on rideing for most part of the winter over here. It seems that just the shoe without a wedge is helpfull. What are your thoughts on this?

[Jaye Perry]

Rick this is interesting, I recently pulled the shoes off a horse that has hock issues. It is common to pull the hind shoes for the winter, however people keep on rideing for most part of the winter over here. It seems that just the shoe without a wedge is helpfull. What are your thoughts on this?
You did what? You need what? Thought you were the NBS protocol conasure?
refer to post #79.

[Rick Burten]

Rick this is interesting, I recently pulled the shoes off a horse that has hock issues. It is common to pull the hind shoes for the winter, however people keep on rideing for most part of the winter over here. It seems that just the shoe without a wedge is helpfull. What are your thoughts on this?
Depends on why the hocks got sore in the first place. If the horse does OK without the shoes, so be it. My experience is that often, there is a negative plane p3 involved, the horse is being asked to work hard off the hocks and when the shoes are pulled, the problems return. Removal of an orthotic(and in reality that's what shoes are) when it is still needed, is never a good thing or idea. But you can't always convince the owner/trainer/whatever of that and so the horse pays the price.

Rick

[Forgewizard]

[QUOTE]Kim-Black
Eric-Blue

Because the muscles int the limb lengthen to follow the level of the ground. same way as our heels will easily dip lower than our toes when we step into a hole, but does this equate to EXCESSIVE strain of the flexor tendon?

So as the muscle lengthened, tension must have been reduced to the tendon in the process. Or do you feel its just an on/off switch?

Well, no Eric, I don't think the tension in the tendon gets reduced at all. See, that's what I was asking - where does the tension go when wedged? If you look at this model: A rubber band (represents muscle tissue which I know may not be the best analogy, as muscle fibers basically are either relaxed and therefore lengthened - or contracted and therefore shortened, but I couldn't think of anything else that could lengthen and shorten to use as a model) so anyway the rubber band (muscle) is tied to the string ( which represents a tendon. The string is threaded over a fulcrum and attached to a block ( representing the navicualr joint and the coffin bone. OK. Simple enough We have a deep digital flexor muscle/tendon,nav. bone & P3, o.k.?

The limb when loaded has tension on the string and at the nav bone. If we tip up the toe of P3 (or lower the heel)the flexor muscle will relax more allowing the tendon to follow P3.

Granted it can only relax so far and as long as the dropped heel or tipped up toe doesn't exceed the range of relxation of the flexor muscle, then no damage is done to the tendon form over stretching ( i.e. a bowed tendon).

Now does this mean that the tendon is flaccid? No! Because there is tension from the tipped up toe. Is this tension now less than what it was when the horse was standing? I don't think so, because the limb is still weight bearing.

Now I'd be willing to bet that the pressure of the tendon against the fulcrum has increased significantly in this position. But the tension in the tendon stays relatively the same as long as the limb is bearing a load.

So conversely as long as the limb is load bearing there is relatively the same amount of tension in the tendon/muscle assembly - but the pressures at the fulcrum poits will change.


O.k. have to go put on a lost shoe - so will return later and pick this back up.

Regards,
Kim

[fairweatherforge]

http://cvm.msu.edu/Dressage/articles/mcpres/MOEL.htm

[Forgewizard]

Eric, that article claims there is no deep digital flexor muscle! hmmm - seems odd...

The deep digital flexor tendon (DDFT) reaches peak strain later in the stance phase around the time when the propulsive force is maximal. The DDF is thought to be involved in providing forward propulsion. Since it has no muscular component, strain in the distal check ligament of the DDFT (DCL) depends on the angles of the fetlock, pastern and coffin joints. Maximal strain corresponds with the start of breakover. because THIS article recognizes that there IS ad deep digital flexor muscle! :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=1507240

did you post the link so that it could speak for you? Or have you bowed out of the discussion?

Regards,
Kim

addendum:

O.K. Maybe IF I change the way I read the above quote it means that the DCL (Distal check ligament) has no muscular component? Which I was already under the impression that ligaments were tissues seperate from muscles.


Eric notes: As to an actual published study? I am not aware of one. But I have seen in my own work that when the hoof heels get trimmed so the wall tubules become more perpendicular the result is a change in the growth that can be seen at the heel bulb hairline and subsequently the heel walls growing down. Now I am on a photo quest.

You might have misspoke their. Trimming the heels shouldn't make the tubules more perpendicular to the ground. Wedgeing them up should make them more perpendicular to the ground.

Yes, I did not say that correctly. When the forward run heels get trimmed to bring them back, the length of the laid under heel wall is of course shortened, so with adding a wedge, the heel wall tubules receive ground force "directions" in a manner that doesn't keep crushing crushing them. Of course when I run into a hoof with this heel problem, it usually has other issues that need addressing too. SO the whole hoof usually gets redirected in its growth patterns.

Regards,
Kim

[fairweatherforge]

[QUOTE=Forgewizard]Eric, that article claims there is no deep digital flexor muscle! hmmm - seems odd...

because THIS article recognizes that there IS ad deep digital flexor muscle! :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=1507240
did you post the link so that it could speak for you? Or have you bowed out of the discussion?

I posted the link as a reference to tendon tension. I will have to do a little research to see excatly what Dr. Clayton meant by that statement. But I won't discount all her research because of that one statement, whether or not thats what she meant or not.


addendum:

O.K. Maybe IF I change the way I read the above quote it means that the DCL (Distal check ligament) has no muscular component? Which I was already under the impression that ligaments were tissues seperate from muscles.



Yes, I did not say that correctly. When the forward run heels get trimmed to bring them back, the length of the laid under heel wall is of course shortened, so with adding a wedge, the heel wall tubules receive ground force "directions" in a manner that doesn't keep crushing crushing them. Of course when I run into a hoof with this heel problem, it usually has other issues that need addressing too. SO the whole hoof usually gets redirected in its growth patterns.

When you trim for underrun heels. Do you trim the foot on one flat plane? or do you trim forward of the underrun heels on one plane, and the trim the underrun heels to another plain and then only wedge the heel to conform to your first plane? The tubules are at a different angle at the heel than the rest of the foot. So technically trimming them both to one flat plane isn't doing the foot justice.

:) :)

[Forgewizard]

Kim H: Yes, I did not say that correctly. When the forward run heels get trimmed to bring them back, the length of the laid under heel wall is of course shortened, so with adding a wedge, the heel wall tubules receive ground force "directions" in a manner that doesn't keep crushing crushing them. Of course when I run into a hoof with this heel problem, it usually has other issues that need addressing too. SO the whole hoof usually gets redirected in its growth patterns.

Eric: When you trim for underrun heels. Do you trim the foot on one flat plane? or do you trim forward of the underrun heels on one plane, and the trim the underrun heels to another plain and then only wedge the heel to conform to your first plane? The tubules are at a different angle at the heel than the rest of the foot. So technically trimming them both to one flat plane isn't doing the foot justice.

Interesting question. Usually these kinds of hooves are LTLH often this has resulted in flares at the toe wall and curled or folded inward heel walls. Which in reality means none of the tubules are on the same plane.

Here comes that ever present farrier disclaimer of "it depends"...

Sometimes I'll just trim.

Sometimes I'll just trim and shoe. Usually for hooves that are a bit forward run in the heels but not folded inward.

Sometimes I have just floated the heels. Usually I'll do this for hooves that show considerable upward jamming at the coronet from the quarters through the heels.

Sometimes I'll just trim, fit a frog support pad, sole pack and shoe. for hooves that are starting to prolapse.

for hooves like the ones presented by Exjumper on this BB http://s2.supload.com/free/RiosFeet005a5-20061130183425.jpg/view/
I'll also wedge. and yes when I fit a wedge pad I do try to flat the hoof. I haven't encountered any problems with varied planes of tubule growth because, I believe, that the central support also offered in these cases redirects the new growth adequately and the subsequent visits remove the older poorly conformed tubules fast enough that the hoof regains its integrity.

Some hooves on older horses won't regain full integrity.

Regards,
Kim H.

[tbloomer]

Funny thing is I can understand what he is saying, really without having to do the necesary math. Well, at least I am pretty sure I get it.
Regards,
Kim
Here is a vector diagram without any math.

White line between two circles is the gravity vector between the horse's center of gravity and the center of load bearing of the hoof (Duckett's Dot). Green curve is the radius of articuation of the coffin joint. Blue lines are the vector of the ground force applied to the center of articulation. Red and yellow lines are the ground force vector applied to the hoof and to the horse's center of gravity. Note that the (yellow) medial ground force vector is shorter in length than the lateral (red) ground force vector. Thus when you wedge the heels, the ground force leverage on the lateral side increases more than the medial ground force leverage. I made up this diagram to illustrate why force plate studies only measure the changes in the center of the ground force BUT the center of load bearing (larger circle inside hoof capsule) does not change.
http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/ml.jpg

[smitty88]

now Tom you realy have me confused

[tbloomer]

now Tom you realy have me confusedA vector is a force applied in a direction. The horse's center of gravity is a force which travels in a straight line to the center of load bearing of each hoof. The force is transmitted through bones, joints, and connective tissue, but the DIRECTION of that force (the VECTOR) is a straight line between two points. If you were to find the SINGLE POINT within the mass of a horse's body where you could suspend the entire horse in space without it tipping forward or backward or side to side, THAT POINT would be the CENTER of GRAVITY. There is a single point within the hoof where the center of weight bearing of the entire load carried by the hoof is located (Duckett's Dot).

The center of the ground surface of the hoof transmits the ground support force to Duckett's dot. The horse's center of gravity LOAD VECTOR is transmitted to Duckett's dot. All leverage and angular changes applied to the ground surface of the hoof are acting on Duckett's dot. Wedging, relocating shoe positing, trimming angles, all these things can move the center of the ground force of the hoof. However, nothing can move the center of load bearing of the hoof until you destroy the coffin joint. You can completely remove the deep flexor tendon and Duckett's dot will remain the center of load bearing.

[Forgewizard]

Tom,

Dr. David Hood did a similar presentation back at the '99 AFA convention in Ky. He demonstrated that whle various trims or shoeing methods my change the actual center of the hoof. They did NOT change the center of articulation. What DID change though with the various forms and shoes was the forces applied to different parts of the hoof.

Regards,
Kim H.

[jack-mac]

A vector is a force applied in a direction. The horse's center of gravity is a force which travels in a straight line to the center of load bearing of each hoof. The force is transmitted through bones, joints, and connective tissue, but the DIRECTION of that force (the VECTOR) is a straight line between two points. If you were to find the SINGLE POINT within the mass of a horse's body where you could suspend the entire horse in space without it tipping forward or backward or side to side, THAT POINT would be the CENTER of GRAVITY. There is a single point within the hoof where the center of weight bearing of the entire load carried by the hoof is located (Duckett's Dot).

The center of the ground surface of the hoof transmits the ground support force to Duckett's dot. The horse's center of gravity LOAD VECTOR is transmitted to Duckett's dot. All leverage and angular changes applied to the ground surface of the hoof are acting on Duckett's dot. Wedging, relocating shoe positing, trimming angles, all these things can move the center of the ground force of the hoof. However, nothing can move the center of load bearing of the hoof until you destroy the coffin joint. You can completely remove the deep flexor tendon and Duckett's dot will remain the center of load bearing.sounds fascinating but not plausible there's to many variables not a big fan of the big bang theory ether

[Jaye Perry]

sounds fascinating but not plausible there's to many variables not a big fan of the big bang theory ether
I agree with this aussie , on this fact, at this point , at this time, at this date in equine foot information.
Don't get your hopes up for a "Buddy" here Jack. You still haven't crossed the ****** line yet!!:cool:

[tbloomer]

sounds fascinating but not plausible there's to many variables not a big fan of the big bang theory etherI'm not a very good pool (pocket billiards) player either. Too many variables . . .

[tbloomer]

I agree with this aussie , on this fact, at this point , at this time, at this date in equine foot information.
Don't get your hopes up for a "Buddy" here Jack. You still haven't crossed the ****** line yet!!:cool:Since I'm going to be visiting your neighborhood soon, we can do some experiments which prove by direct measurement some aspects of what is shown in the diagram. In order to prove all aspects by direct measurement, we need a cadaver limb, a means of loading the limb, and a means of measuring the load. A hydraulic press with a pressure gage works well for this, but I don't have one of those.

[Mike Ferrara]

A vector is a force applied in a direction. The horse's center of gravity is a force which travels in a straight line to the center of load bearing of each hoof. The force is transmitted through bones, joints, and connective tissue, but the DIRECTION of that force (the VECTOR) is a straight line between two points. If you were to find the SINGLE POINT within the mass of a horse's body where you could suspend the entire horse in space without it tipping forward or backward or side to side, THAT POINT would be the CENTER of GRAVITY. There is a single point within the hoof where the center of weight bearing of the entire load carried by the hoof is located (Duckett's Dot).

The center of the ground surface of the hoof transmits the ground support force to Duckett's dot. The horse's center of gravity LOAD VECTOR is transmitted to Duckett's dot. All leverage and angular changes applied to the ground surface of the hoof are acting on Duckett's dot. Wedging, relocating shoe positing, trimming angles, all these things can move the center of the ground force of the hoof. However, nothing can move the center of load bearing of the hoof until you destroy the coffin joint. You can completely remove the deep flexor tendon and Duckett's dot will remain the center of load bearing.

I think you should add the math because I'm pretty sure that I see a few things wrong with this analysis.

[tbloomer]

Dr. David Hood did a similar presentation back at the '99 AFA convention in Ky. He demonstrated that whle various trims or shoeing methods my change the actual center of the hoof. They did NOT change the center of articulation.You can put square tires, round tires, eliptical tires, off center tires, or NO tires on a rim. The center of rotation will always be in the center of the AXLE. The horse's "axle" is at the distal end of P2. HOWEVER, when P3 is loaded, P2 is receiving that load from a point which is anterior/distal from the center of articulation. If you place a hammer handle under a horse's foot crossways at the widest part of the foot (center of articulation) and have the horse stand on it, the foot will tip forward as soon as it becomes load bearing. Move the hammer handle placement anterior to a place directly below the extensor process - then load the foot. Bearing weight on a fulcrum in this location the foot does not tip forward or backward. You can wedge or lower the heels till the cows come home - the foot will still balance on that line - neither tipping forward or backward.

In loading experiments I have done with cadaver limbs and hydraulic presses, once you place a fulcrum under the hoof at a point where it neither tips forward or backward while loaded, you can sever the DFT and the suspensory ligament and then crank the load up to 1000lbs - the hoof STILL does not tip forward or backward. Therefore, it is the geometry of the coffin joint itself which determines the center of load bearing. This experiment worked as described even when we completely removed the hoof capsule.

[tbloomer]

I think you should add the math because I'm pretty sure that I see a few things wrong with this analysis.You can compute the GEOMETRIC center of a piece of straight bar stock with a ruler - doing the math - divide the length by 2. OR, you can find the center of mass of a piece of bar stock by balancing it on top of an anvil devil. The balancing method requires no math. As long as the piece of bar stock is consistent in density and dimension over it's whole length, the measured and computed center will always be the same.

In order to COMPUTE the center of load bearing of the coffin bone you would have to mathematically define it's shape, size, and distribution of density. You would also have to mathematically define the spatial relationships and surfaces of all the bones in the coffin joint. To achieve mathematical accuracy would require something like Simpson's Rule in a 12 dimensional matrix. That would be a royal pain in the posterior.

Back in the mid to late 80's I used Simpsons rule to compute the center of gravity and the center of bouyancy of boats and submarines. Now I have a surface modeling program that does this on my computer. Manual calculations what used to take several days now take about two seconds. If you feel like creating a 3 dimensional NURB (Non Uniform Rational B-Spline) surface model of the distal limb, I would be happy to feed it to my program and run the numbers for you.:)

[Forgewizard]

Tom,

I am not arguing with you. I am saying Dr. Hood's demonstration showed us what you are saying.

what Dr. Hood also demonstrated was that the loading of the hoof changed while the COA stayed constant.

Using your example of tires and axles, while the axle always rotates in the same place - the loading of the tire changes with terrain 'speed and direction of travel.

Interesting that you use boats and buoyancy as a model. In my booklet I also sketched out a diagram using boats as a model.

If you have a canoe and only sit in the middle - the boat stays level. But move that load port or starboard or fore or aft and the Canoe will tilt In the respective direction. the middle of the canoe hasn't changed - just the distribution of the load. too much load in any one direction and a capsize occurs!

Regards,
Kim

[jack-mac]

I agree with this aussie , on this fact, at this point , at this time, at this date in equine foot information.
Don't get your hopes up for a "Buddy" here Jack. You still haven't crossed the ****** line yet!!:cool:What so i shouldn't expected a Xmas card "dame" :D ;)

[Phil Armitage]

What so i shouldn't expected a Xmas card "dame" :D ;)

Here ya go Jack, Merry Christmas

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/hohoho.jpg

[reillyshoe]

Since I'm going to be visiting your neighborhood soon, we can do some experiments which prove by direct measurement some aspects of what is shown in the diagram. In order to prove all aspects by direct measurement, we need a cadaver limb, a means of loading the limb, and a means of measuring the load. A hydraulic press with a pressure gage works well for this, but I don't have one of those.


The problem with using cadaver limbs is that many of the support structures have been changed through severing of the tendon/ligaments. In the study I am working on, it was considered to bring in a DVM/PhD to appy turnbbuckles to the tendons in an attempt to make the trials more accurate, but this would have been an entirely new protocol and made the study much more difficult (i.e., expensive). Live horse trials are proving more cost efficient and more accurate.

[tbloomer]

The problem with using cadaver limbs is that many of the support structures have been changed through severing of the tendon/ligaments. In the study I am working on, it was considered to bring in a DVM/PhD to appy turnbbuckles to the tendons in an attempt to make the trials more accurate, but this would have been an entirely new protocol and made the study much more difficult (i.e., expensive). Live horse trials are proving more cost efficient and more accurate.
Here is the problem. There is no way to support the coffin bone from the center of load bearing (inside the coffin bone itself) in order to measure whether or not that center changes location. When you make measurements on the ground surface of the foot you are measuring the supporting ground force, NOT the force of weight bearing at its central point within the hoof within P3. Changes in the center of the ground surface of the hoof are not transmitted directly to the DIJ (coffin joint) because they have to go through the center of load bearing of the hoof (coffin bone) in order to get TO the DIJ. Trimming, shoe placement, wedging - all these things affect the center of the supportinhg ground force. They can be measured directly by force plates. However, according to the laws of physics, each "link" in a chain has it's own center of load bearing. The center of load bearing of the cannon or any other bone between two joints or surfaces bone does not change either . . . the only CENTER that you can change is the last one in the chain - which is the center of the supporting ground force.

[tbloomer]

If you have a canoe and only sit in the middle - the boat stays level. But move that load port or starboard or fore or aft and the Canoe will tilt In the respective direction. the middle of the canoe hasn't changed - just the distribution of the load. too much load in any one direction and a capsize occurs!
Regards,
KimYes you change the center of gravity (CG) but not the center of bouyancy (CB) or the displacement (volume of water displaced by the submerged portion of the hull).

What you can't change is the CG or the CB of the canoe itself without physically making changes to its structure. You can move stuff in the canoe or stuff that is attached to it and create moments which act upon the canoe's CG, BUT the CG of the CANOE is still the CG of the CANOE.

[tbloomer]

http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/lobsterboat.jpg

Lobster anyone?

[smitty88]

Tom your not gone to sea are you

[ray steele]

Smitty,


Let's hope that Tom's not "floundering"! How would you shoe this boat, or should that be another thread?

Regards

Ray


Tom your not gone to sea are you

[tbloomer]

The problem with using cadaver limbs is that many of the support structures have been changed through severing of the tendon/ligaments. In the study I am working on, it was considered to bring in a DVM/PhD to appy turnbbuckles to the tendons in an attempt to make the trials more accurate, but this would have been an entirely new protocol and made the study much more difficult (i.e., expensive). Live horse trials are proving more cost efficient and more accurate.
Have you read about Henery Heymering's ligament (the chondralcoronal ligament) and his theory of how it works in the weight bearing mechanism of the hoof?

The article is buried on page 9 of the following .PDF link:

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_1/45000/45118/1/preview/chron01.pdf

[tbloomer]

Smitty,

Let's hope that Tom's not "floundering"! How would you shoe this boat, or should that be another thread?

Regards

Ray
Ray Steel from the land of Massachusetts? You didn't see the "keel shoe" below the prop? Shame on y' mate!:mad:

[tbloomer]

Tom your not gone to sea are youNot in many years. I was there in '89 and '91:

http://www.isrsubrace.org/index.htm

[Forgewizard]

Tom,

That article may help to explain Esco Buff's donkey with the missing P3! Interesting! Thanks!

It will also be helpful in another BB discussion about laminar attachments.

Did I understand the article correctly that these chondrocoronal ligaments attach to the lateral cartilages and P2?

regards,
Kim

[tbloomer]

Tom,

That article may help to explain Esco Buff's donkey with the missing P3! Interesting! Thanks!

It will also be helpful in another BB discussion about laminar attachments.

Did I understand the article correctly that these chondrocoronal ligaments attach to the lateral cartilages and P2?

regards,
KimYes they attach from atop the lateral cartlidges to the bottom of P2. It's difficult to get to them in a normal hoof dissection. Mitch Taylor has photos of them in his presentation on the anatomy of the lower limb. I want to do some more loading studies to see what happens when you cut these ligaments and load the limb. I need to build myself one of those hydraulic presses like Mitch Taylor uses in his presentations. He can load a lower limb with 1000lbs of pressure and you can see what happens when you start cutting tendons and ligaments. If you sever the superficial sesmoidian ligament the limb collapses and the load drops to 800lbs. Simple math, the superficial sesmoidian ligament provides 20% of the support for the fetlock. If you cut the suspensory ligament and leave the superficial sesmoidian ligament in tact, the fetlock collapses and the load drops to 200lbs. Simple math, the suspensory ligament supports 80% of the load at the fetlock. Note that this experiment is conducted with the deep flexor and the main extensor tendons hanging loose and not attached to anything.

The interesting thing is that when you balance the hoof with a fulcrum under "Duckett's Dot", the hoof does not tip forward or backward while it is loaded - even when you cut away the suspensory ligament and the flexors/extensors. I would lke to see what happens when you cut Henry's ligaments. Since this would disconnect the lateral cartlidges from P2 and lateral cartlidges are bonded to P3, what would happen to the center of load bearing of P3? Maybe Mitch will bring his hydraulic press to the IHCS and we can find out!

[Phil Armitage]

Phil mentioned in post #14 he felt his shoeing supported the horse almost 50/50. I'm not a 100% sure what Phil feels is a 50/50 support in a foot, but he sure is way off. And since I know the majority of shoers make the same mistake but don't have Phil's guts to stick their necks out, I did some drawing on Phil's picture, hopefully explaining things a little further.

The 50/50 rule has to do with centering your support surface around the center of the coffin bone. 50% in front of the middle of the coffin bone, 50% behind it. I for one like to take this a little step further. I feel that since a coffin bone not only supports in a static way, but also in a dynamic way, the 50/50 relation should be considered starting at the center of articulation, not the middle of the coffin bone.

But even if we were to refer to the center of the coffin bone as a reference point for our 50/50 rule, Phil's shoe placement is not even close to being in 50/50 relation the the center of the coffin bone.

There is a trick I explained before on these boards that enables a shoer to find the COA in a foot without X rays. Have a look at http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535

Following that explanation we can establish the COA in Phil's foot too. If we do we'll notice that the support of the foot when measured from the COA is not an almost 50/50 relation as Phil suggest but roughly a 65/35 relation (look at the green horizontal line in the pic). Support holding the short end of the stick here (pun intended). This is not the support we're looking for.

My preferred support would be like illustrated with the thick horizontal blue line. This also answers Smitty's question where I would place breakover. Well, something like it because there's no way I would leave this horse without wedges.



Ronald Aalders

Hi Ronald, I reshod this horse 1 weeks ago. Wanted to post new pics. I got to see the rads and talked to the Vet. We agreed to bring the toe back more and raise the angle. This is what I did useing a bar wedge, Equipak and Alum. Eventer. I think it looks much better and the horse is doing great, works 5 days a week. By the way thanks for takeing the time and shareing great info.

Someone is going ask why the traction? For Winter in Maine. :)

First shoeing:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0151.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/LFLateralview.jpg

New shoeing: 1 weeks ago

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0203.jpg

[tbloomer]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/12/36408422492.jpg

Note, I don't have this exact, but I've sort of marked the COA so you can see where it is relative to the shoe.

[Jaye Perry]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/12/36408422492.jpg

Note, I don't have this exact, but I've sort of marked the COA so you can see where it is relative to the shoe.
YEP, NOT CORRECT. Too far back.

[Phil Armitage]

I added the radiograph to my post.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

tbloomer in gray, deletia

The interesting thing is that when you balance the hoof with a fulcrum under "Duckett's Dot", the hoof does not tip forward or backward while it is loaded - even when you cut away the suspensory ligament and the flexors/extensors.

I didn't pay any attention to the position of the toe when it happened, but I can relate from personal experience that when the DDFT, SFT and suspensory ligament are severed, the ergot becomes a weight bearing structure. It ain't pretty.

[calshoer]

I too see the COA is a bit more forward of the orange line...probably about 1/4 to 3/8" behind the last heel nail, if you draw a line from coronary down to the shoe.
Theres a little trick you can do when taking hoof balance rads with the shoe on the foot, so you can better transfer the measurements on the rad to the actual foot. Place a marker just above a lateral heel or toe nail clinch,something like a metal BB or taped on the foot . Then when you are looking a the radiograph you can tell which nail is the medial or lateraland use it for measuements. if your looking for COA, mark the heel nail, if youre looking for BO placement with the shoe and a pad on the foot so you cant mark the frog apex, mark a toe nail. Then measure on the foot from there to make your changes.

[tbloomer]

YEP, NOT CORRECT. Too far back.
OK Uncle Jaye, How's that?

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/115242760.jpg

[Phil Armitage]

OK Uncle Jaye, How's that?


This X-Ray is of the first shoeing and what Ronald also came up with. The measurements he used were from an article in Farriers Journal and pretty accurate.

The line you placed on the second shoeing indicateing the COA is too far back. I will do the same measurements Ronald did on the second shoeing and post it.

[tbloomer]

tbloomer in gray, deletia

The interesting thing is that when you balance the hoof with a fulcrum under "Duckett's Dot", the hoof does not tip forward or backward while it is loaded - even when you cut away the suspensory ligament and the flexors/extensors.

I didn't pay any attention to the position of the toe when it happened, but I can relate from personal experience that when the DDFT, SFT and suspensory ligament are severed, the ergot becomes a weight bearing structure. It ain't pretty.
Still doesn't tip fore or aft while you apply whatever amount of force is necessary to collaps the fetlock to that point . . . you can put the hoof on a block so that the ergot doesn't bottom out. My point is that it's the geometry of the coffin joint not ligaments and tendons which determine that center of load bearing. Load bearing is transmitted to the proximal limb throught the coffin joint.

[Phil Armitage]

Here is the second shoeing marked up the way Ronald showed us. Sorry could not do different colors. Make a line the length of the hairline and divide that in half and drop a line straight down, this is the location of the navicular bone. Divide the front half into equal thirds, the middle line is the COA and the front line is the location of the extensor process. Then a measurment at the ground suface from breakover to the middle line and end of the heel to the middle line will show if we have 50/50 or not. Not there yet on this shoeing. Probably should have set the shoe back a little further or maybe longer in the heels.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0203COA.jpg

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage-....... Probably should have set the shoe back a little further or maybe longer in the heels.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/100_0203COA.jpg[/QUOTE]
UH Duh:rolleyes:

[Phil Armitage]

You should see the mud this horse gets turned out in. Now we have half frozen mud. Been muddy for a few months now. I also have to take into consideration where the horse lives.

For the record this horse is going better than ever. Walked off better than when he was first intoduced to me.

[Phil Armitage]

Here is yours Jaye. Not too bad, I read what you said about getting these feet back into shape slowly and the convex (flattened) sole. Did you leave the dish in the toe because of the lack of hoof wall thickness?

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/Phil_037/112206009.jpg

[tbloomer]

The line you placed on the second shoeing indicateing the COA is too far back. I will do the same measurements Ronald did on the second shoeing and post it.The line I drew on the xray is supposed to mark the center of the raduis of the circle. The circle is the radius of articulation of the coffin joint. Line passes just in front of the navicular bone. Your last post with the 3 verticle lines looks about right . . . you could probably set the shoe back a little more. If the horse steps it off, charge to replace it. Not your fault they have muddy paddocks. :)

[Phil Armitage]

The line I drew on the xray is supposed to mark the center of the raduis of the circle. The circle is the radius of articulation of the coffin joint. Line passes just in front of the navicular bone. Your last post with the 3 verticle lines looks about right . . . you could probably set the shoe back a little more. If the horse steps it off, charge to replace it. Not your fault they have muddy paddocks. :)

It is mud everywhere in Maine and NH. Deep half frozen mud. Don't make a **** what we do with shoeing right now. It becomes real fun when we have a few inches of snow on top of deep mud. Went through a winter like that 2 years ago, shoes came off left and right. Even if I charged for it, it becomes old real fast.

Those lines on a digital photo work real good. Poor mans X-Rays. :)

Nice way to come home and evaluate your owne work. Make changes in the next shoeing and keep the photos on file.