heel crack - feedback wanted

[cordell_rogers]

I am posting this for an accomplished endurance rider, Angie McGhee. The following are her words:

The first two are yesterday. He's had the shoes on 4 weeks I believe. No sign of a struggle. Shoe is tight. One loose clinch on the opposite side. The last two are photos of him when he is fresh shod Aug. 12. The toes are somewhat shorter now. My farrier went to Afghanistan and the new guy and I aren't that sure of each other yet. We're trying to figure out a new horse and each other at
the same time. This horse has been competing since April. He's done three 50's since Aug. He did 2 on that set of shoes. He's 11 or so. He toes in a little in front.

Attn. Farriers. I've got some photos I'd love for you to debate. I went out to saddle Gunner yesterday and was surprised to see a big horizontal split about 1/2 way down the inside heel of his right fore. Lifted it up and it goes all the way across to the frog. I mean a wide separation. I took dental floss and put it in there and can go about 1-1.5" forward with no resistance. He did not mind me doing that. He did not mind hoof testers on it. He trotted fine on gravel. No sign of blood. I walked my entire fence line wondering if he could have hooked his hoof over wire and sawed that in there. No sign of anything (and there's a good hotwire 6" inside that fence so they never bother it).

This horse was a thin pasture potato until last Feb. He'd been ridden quite a bit several years ago but had at least 2 years of goofing off. He has done 5 50's this year with no lameness. He had really long toes when I got him. He'd been barefoot a couple of years and had tough feet but *long* toes and we've been backing them up each shoeing.
The question is, did some exterior stress cause the crack?
Could the change of angles cause it? We're looking at putting a bar shoe and patching material on there. He's sound.

Since I have nothing better to think about until the farrier comes
out. Anybody want to venture a guess as to how this could happen and tell me about the horses you've seen win Tevis with worse? (please)

If you want to venture a guess, write me and I'll happily send photos.

Angie (rides2far at juno.com)

http://www.putfile.com/cordellrogers/images/41539

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29816551855.jpg
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29816551873.jpg
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29816551826.jpg
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29816551999.jpg

[rides2far]

Just an additional note from the horse owner. The top & 3rd down photos are of the horse now. The 2nd (from the top) and bottom photos are from Aug. 12. Suggestion made by another farrier is to put on a bar shoe & patch the hoof. I have already paid entry fee for a 50 miler 9 days from now. He is still sound. With the new shoe job farrier friend who has over 11,000 miles of competition thinks it's possible.

Angie

[calshoer]

From the August pics to the current, I would venture two possibilities. First, that the new farrier is trimming toe and leaving way too much heel ("standing him up") thereby causing excess stress in the heels and a compression crack from the heels taking a pounding.
OR, second guess, it is just a coincidental heel abscess that blew out the top.
But I still would be trimming more heel of the horse, because they are running forward and somethings gonna eventually give.
Patty

[cordell_rogers]

There's gotta be more comments out there. Come on, let's hear your thoughts!

Maybe this will make it easier to see & comment:
current pics:

http://www.endurance.net/theHoof/images/Gunner3_hoof_injury1.jpg

http://www.endurance.net/theHoof/images/Gunner4_hoof_injury-4.jpg

August 12, 2006:

http://www.endurance.net/theHoof/images/Gunner1_RF_Aug_12.jpg

http://www.endurance.net/theHoof/images/Gunner2_Fore_right.jpg

[Leslie Reinke]

Is it possible that the horse is over reaching?

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I'd say that the horse is laid way back with excessively long toes and heels under-run and there therefore must be a heck of a lot of pressure going on there. When there's pressure something has got to give

I'd be interested to hear the views of some of the farriers.

[Rick Burten]

The split looks like 'old news' to me. Its grown more than half way out and is causing no problems. I think it was from an abscess that vented at the coronary band some 4+ months ago. Interesting that no one noticed it until now.

I agree with Patty and Thomas. The toes are too long, the heels running forward and while the heels of the shoe appear to be covering the heels of the foot, with the location of the heels of the foot being what they are, the back of the foot is not being correctly supported. Though the toe of the shoe is either worn into a rolled toe or the shoe was built that way, I think the breakover, given the current hoof conformation, is too far forward.

When that crack grows down a bit more, it is probably going to somewhat detach and have to be removed. That event may necessitate either a temporary bar shoe, or some acrylic reconstruction.

[jack-mac]

What is "wrong" with you farrier's it's belatedly obvious the horse has over reached & clipped the bulb of his heel as for the shoeing job find another farrier heels are to low tow to long it will keep occurring if it is continually shod like that :rolleyes:

[Rick Burten]

What is "wrong" with you farrier's it's belatedly obvious the horse has over reached & clipped the bulb of his heel as for the shoeing job find another farrier heels are to low tow to long it will keep occurring if it is continually shod like that :rolleyes:
Nothing 'wrong' with us. Were you able to truely read for content in context, you would by now have noted that your veterinary diagnosis had already been discussed, as well as other possible causes. You might also have noted that several options for managing the condition were also presented.

By the way, are you sure you wanted to use "belatedly obvious' rather than 'patently obvious'? And wouldn't 'evident' have been an even better choice in this instance?

[jack-mac]

Nothing 'wrong' with us. Were you able to truely read for content in context, you would by now have noted that your veterinary diagnosis had already been discussed, as well as other possible causes. You might also have noted that several options for managing the condition were also presented.

By the way, are you sure you wanted to use "belatedly obvious' rather than 'patently obvious'? And wouldn't 'evident' have been an even better choice in this instance?mmm took the bate???????? :mad:

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

What is "wrong" with you farrier's it's belatedly obvious the horse has over reached & clipped the bulb of his heel as for the shoeing job find another farrier heels are to low tow to long it will keep occurring if it is continually shod like that :rolleyes:

Within hours of posting several had suggested that the toes were too long and the heels were underrun. Presumably you read those farriers' postings and hence though your reply was belated it was by then obvious as the answers were already posted.

I would be surprised if the horse didn't overreach with long toes to that extent but its clear if it did it wasn't the bulb of the heel that it clipped, rather it was the hoof: at least I can't see any evidence of injury on the heel but perhaps you could draw my attention to what you've seen to reach your conclusion. Personally I would also not be surprised if the crack wasn't merely a compression crack because of poor trimming rather than external force such as an overreach.

But then again nothing "wrong" with me, I'm just a **** trainer and not a farrier. :rolleyes: ;)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

mmm took the bate???????? :mad:

Putting out bait :confused:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/trollbusting.jpg

[jack-mac]

I used the word belatedly because it takes time for a crack to grow down after the bulb has been bruised before you notices it

[Gary_Miller]

as for the shoeing job find another farrier heels are to low tow to long it will keep occurring if it is continually shod like that :rolleyes:Just like that find another farrier? I sure hope it not you as you can't see the diffrence in the shape of ashoe. You also state here that the heels are to low. Wrong again the heels are to high and the toes are too long which is affecting the breakover and the base of support. In the august 12 picture it also looks as if the right heel is longer than the left affecting M and L balance.
I agree with Rick it is an old abcess that has finaly grown down. I think the reason it was not decoverd sooner is the location. It finaly grow down to where the hoof was the weakest this causing the crack.

Jack-O-Mac you better go get you eyes checked.


gary

[Complete Equine]

I am not sure what type of feedback you were looking for. If you need to know what to do now, and you are expecting to use this horse in competition, I have a suggestion. Remove the lower portion of hoof wall beneath the crack. I think you will find that most of it is dead anyways. Leaving it there creates an opportunity for a world of problems, removing it will allow new hoof to grow. You can fill the remaining "hole" with a hoof filler if you'd like, but it shouldn't cause any problems left open especially if it is on the lateral (outside) of the horses hoof. As several others mentioned the horse has a very long toe and rather underrun heels. (It also appeared that one shoe was set about 1/4" too far back with the toe hanging over it, I beleive the right front). Fixing these problems will help you in any competition!

[cordell_rogers]

Thanks for the comments. I just realized that I wasn't very clear in the original post - I have never seen this horse or worked on it. The horse & owner are in Georgia and I am in Arizona. I just saw that Angie was soliciting comments on www.endurance.net and thought this would be a better place to get reliable advice.

I will post some of my own work in the next couple of weeks because I am inexperienced and appreciate critiques as they help me learn. Nobody learns much from saying 'looks good, nice work'.