Navicular Syn?

[Nicky~MM]

Hello everyone,
I am new here. I have looked at quite a few posts and feel confident that you my be able to help.

A friend of mine was just told her horse had Navicular Syn.
My first question is: Is there a difference between Navicular Syn. and Navicular Dis.?

My next question is more of a... this is what happened...

My friend changed ferriers, 2 weeks later the horse was limping. He never had problems before, they called the ferrier out again and he said to have the vet come out. She looked at the horse and put her magic hands on the horse and said it is Navicular Syn.? I asked could it be a change in the ferrier? I got no answer... I have no data to give my friend. I am concerned because i feel it is because she changed ferriers but i am not sure it is just my thought and gut feeling.

any thoughts?
thank you,
Nikky

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Hello everyone,
I am new here. I have looked at quite a few posts and feel confident that you my be able to help.

A friend of mine was just told her horse had Navicular Syn.
My first question is: Is there a difference between Navicular Syn. and Navicular Dis.?

My next question is more of a... this is what happened...

My friend changed ferriers, 2 weeks later the horse was limping. He never had problems before, they called the ferrier out again and he said to have the vet come out. She looked at the horse and put her magic hands on the horse and said it is Navicular Syn.? I asked could it be a change in the ferrier? I got no answer... I have no data to give my friend. I am concerned because i feel it is because she changed ferriers but i am not sure it is just my thought and gut feeling.

any thoughts?
thank you,
NikkyFirstly, did the vet check for abcesses, corns, thrush, etc? Did the vet take any X-Rays to back up her diagnosis? I suggest you check with your friend, because you make it sound as if the vet was in and out in 2 minutes. A bit more detail would help, thanks.

[Nicky~MM]

that is just what happened, I was there, she took her "magic hands" put it on the horse and said Navicular Syn. said talk with your ferrier here is some pain meds. and get your self some bell boots and heres the bill.

is there a difference in syn. and Dis.?

whats realy got me is the horse is now really sore. stalled and babied like he is going to fall apart. he got real sore after the shoes, i think they are bar with pad lifts.
I told her to get a 2nd opp. i was wondering what you all thought?

[Nicky~MM]

I just found one answer in here sorry i didnt look in there: :D I was looking in the other one ;)

Farriers Helping Farriers with Navicular Syndrome
is there a difference?

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

whats realy got me is the horse is now really sore. stalled and babied like he is going to fall apart. he got real sore after the shoes, i think they are bar with pad lifts.
I told her to get a 2nd opp. i was wondering what you all thought?"Magic Hands"??? :rolleyes: Does she do massage on poor old farriers?

Get a 2nd opinion, by all means, from another vet. Why did she change farriers if the horse was doing OK? What type of horse? How old? What conditions does it live in? Why did the farrier decide on bar shoes? Has it always had bar shoes? Most farriers will actually get the answers to these questions from a new client through normal conversation.

The more detail you can supply, the better the chances we can help you.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

In the UK Navicular disease is most accurately described as a "syndrome" rather than a single disease, as the term "disease" implies that there is one specific condition with a single cause. There are probably multiple causes of pain in the navicular bone giving rise to a variety of pathological changes which result in similar clinical signs.

The clinical signs are problems in front feet (almost exclusively) resulting in a shortening of the stride and slight unlevelness on turns and often no obvious lameness as such. The condition is usually worse on hard ground. The horse is often described as "foot sore" by the owner and may have intermittant lameness particularly when working in circles. The horse often points its feet when standing at rest and horses are more likely to get it if they have poor foot balance and long tows and low, collapsed heels.

The pulses of the digital arteries may be stronger than usual and hoof testers often don't cause pain.

In classic navicular syndrome if the horse is rested then there is sometimes an improvement but as soon as the horse starts working again the clinical symptoms start up again.

Diagnoses is confirmed on x ray but as there is huge variation in the appearance of navicular bones in normal horses this in itself isn't reliable though some horses show specific changes in the area and particularly when there is distinct erosion of the back aspect of the navicular bone.

Personally I would never believe a vet who just took a look at a horse and said navicular unless what they were actually saying is that the horse is showing clinical signs of pain/problems in the navicular area.

However if a horse has had a lifetime of soundness and a change of farrier and then suddently clinically presenting I'd be concerned that more likely something had happened in relation to correct trimming and foot balance or its just coincidental injury.

[THamilton]

Navicular disease/syndrome are conditions that appear over time. They do not "appear" in the short amount of time that you described; unless there are other contributing fators. For example, hard use where that animal could have come down on something hard and damaged the insides of the foot.

I am like others I am more inclined to believe that it is an abcess. Possibly related to trimming too short. I would reccomend soaking the foot in hot epsom salt water (1/4 cup: 1 quart water as hot as you can stand to have your hand in) at least once a day for three days for at least ten minutes. This will facilitate the inflamation in the foot to exit at the hairline. Sometimes it can take a week to 10 days to do that. Then the horse is about 95%sound. IF after 10-14 days that conditions are the same then I would go to a diferent vet and get x-rays. i would also keep the horse in a small area and do not use him/her.

If soaking the foot is not an option, you can also use a product called Magic Cushion and mix it 50/50 with DMSO. Then place the packing in the bottom of the foot and cover with a piece of grocery bag paper cut to fit the foot. This will really draw the inflammation out of the foot. Leave it in for 24 hours and repeat. You could also talk to a vet about a product called animal lintex (spelling ???) It is a great tool that they are using on some racetracks for bruising. Vets use it to draw inflammation out of wounds. Just a few suggestions.

I would also suggest changing vets and farriers again. Why did she change in the first place? Does she do that often?

Tony

[Nicky~MM]

"Magic Hands"??? :rolleyes: Does she do massage on poor old farriers?

Get a 2nd opinion, by all means, from another vet. Why did she change farriers if the horse was doing OK? What type of horse? How old? What conditions does it live in? Why did the farrier decide on bar shoes? Has it always had bar shoes? Most farriers will actually get the answers to these questions from a new client through normal conversation.

The more detail you can supply, the better the chances we can help you.

this is what i told her get a second oppinon. he is a QH, about 10, stalled at night turn out by day, straw bedding. he was worked in a sand arena 2x a week. she changed ferrers because he was.... how can i put this.... being stuped, not keeping appointments, or returning phone calls, when asked if every thing was ok he got nasty. maybe he has prob. at home but how is anyone to know for sure? good ferrer bad attitued, said well we only have to see him every 2 months so we can deal but he just got worse.
i dont know why the new one did what he did i wasnt there for that. but i told her i felt he lamed him dont let him shoe him. and i dont care how good the vet is she cant know that is his problem for sure.

[Nicky~MM]

The clinical signs are problems in front feet (almost exclusively) resulting in a shortening of the stride and slight unlevelness on turns and often no obvious lameness as such. The condition is usually worse on hard ground. The horse is often described as "foot sore" by the owner and may have intermittant lameness particularly when working in circles. The horse often points its feet when standing at rest and horses are more likely to get it if they have poor foot balance and long tows and low, collapsed heels.



In classic navicular syndrome if the horse is rested then there is sometimes an improvement but as soon as the horse starts working again the clinical symptoms start up again.

Diagnoses is confirmed on x ray but as there is huge variation in the appearance of navicular bones in normal horses this in itself isn't reliable though some horses show specific changes in the area and particularly when there is distinct erosion of the back aspect of the navicular bone.

Personally I would never believe a vet who just took a look at a horse and said navicular unless what they were actually saying is that the horse is showing clinical signs of pain/problems in the navicular area.

However if a horse has had a lifetime of soundness and a change of farrier and then suddently clinically presenting I'd be concerned that more likely something had happened in relation to correct trimming and foot balance or its just coincidental injury.

he was on and off with his limping i didnt notice a shortening of his stride. i am going to copy and past this and give to my friend if ok by you all i think she should read this because sometimes it helps to hear the same thing from some one else.

she is friends with the vet and i think this effecting her jugdement.

[Nicky~MM]

Navicular disease/syndrome are conditions that appear over time. They do not "appear" in the short amount of time that you described; unless there are other contributing fators. For example, hard use where that animal could have come down on something hard and damaged the insides of the foot.

I am like others I am more inclined to believe that it is an abcess. Possibly related to trimming too short. I would reccomend soaking the foot in hot epsom salt water (1/4 cup: 1 quart water as hot as you can stand to have your hand in) at least once a day for three days for at least ten minutes. This will facilitate the inflamation in the foot to exit at the hairline. Sometimes it can take a week to 10 days to do that. Then the horse is about 95%sound. IF after 10-14 days that conditions are the same then I would go to a diferent vet and get x-rays. i would also keep the horse in a small area and do not use him/her.

If soaking the foot is not an option, you can also use a product called Magic Cushion and mix it 50/50 with DMSO. Then place the packing in the bottom of the foot and cover with a piece of grocery bag paper cut to fit the foot. This will really draw the inflammation out of the foot. Leave it in for 24 hours and repeat. You could also talk to a vet about a product called animal lintex (spelling ???) It is a great tool that they are using on some racetracks for bruising. Vets use it to draw inflammation out of wounds. Just a few suggestions.

I would also suggest changing vets and farriers again. Why did she change in the first place? Does she do that often?

Tony


this is also very helpful and thank you i wil keep everyone updated on what she does and i would like to print this too. acutaly the hole thing.

she had the other ferrer for 1.5 years changed because the worlds best ferrer couldnt bend over anymore. as if you need to bend over to work on horses feet. :rolleyes: thats what i told him. i also offered to flip the horse over so he could still do feet but he wouldnt go for it. i miss him :( he was great! he always made everyone feel that they were his only client and took the time to be a person and explane everything. i know when to call the ferrer and when it is just a chip and can wait. he showed me lots! and sometimes not to give pain meds because the pain is what tells them dont do that. and when to give it. i wish he could still work. i vist him from time to time but dont see him out and about because his knees dont work well anymore. i tell him he is falling apart at the seems.

i asked him about this and he was going to come out and look. then cryed and said he cant. so that is what brought me here, his knee prob. is new and he needs to adjust. i will always vist but wont talk about feet prob. till he has adjusted to his new situation

thank you for taking the time to help!!