Impatient horses this year

[Andrew Grimm]

Hello,
Just need to vent a bit. This year has been miserable. Almost every horse I've got under this year has made my job very difficult. Most of these horses aren't what I'd call "Rank"; just misbehaving, and impatient. I'll try to discribe how a majority of these horses act. Most of them jerk me around with there hind legs(sometimes with the front also), paw the ground and stomp there feet while in the crossties(ruining my level foot, and making me feel rushed), toss their heads, jerk their feet of the hoof stand, and quite frequently break out of the crossties. These horses act like this regardless of how much fly sprays on them, how many of their horse buddies are around, how nice I am, or how aggresive I get.
I don't consider myself to be an expert horseman. I've owned and been around horses for only 6-7 years. I'm by far not an abusive farrier who hits horses with my rasps, hammer, and fists(not to say that I never have). I'm quite around them, pat their necks regularly, try to make them comfortable, and take my time with them. The horses never seem to appreciate the nice things I do; nor, do they seem to care. I really don't care about that aslong as they stand nicely to let me do my job.
Is it me? Do any of you ever feel this way? Any advice?


Thank you,
Andrew Grimm

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Something I'm seeing more of as well. A heck of a lot of horses are owned now by folks who think its a good idea to have a horse and to keep it at board. When barns/livery yards (as they're called in the UK) are owned by knowledgeable people that's fine. But for every knowledgeable owner and barn proprietor there's many who don't have a clue what they're doing. So owners are floundering around with no or inadequate support.

This means that horses aren't being trained in basic ground manners. Aren't trained and have no respect for anyone handling them - and including the farrier.

The problem isn't the horse though, the problem is the owner. Train a young horse to lift its feet and to stand without its foot lifted whilst its tapped etc and without moving or shuffling about by using appropriate combinations of praise and discipline and there's no trouble. I assert that horses should NOT be shuffling about, kicking out, snatching legs away etc when they're having their feet attended to but they don't get that way by magic. It happens because they're in the hands of an owner who has invested time and training.

I'd suggest that you get the owner the business cards of a trainer.

Over here if you have a bad mannered horse the farrier would give you a "warning" and then drop you as a customer until such time as the horse is safe to handle.

Personally I don't blame farriers for that at all. Its their jobs to trim horses feet, not to put themselves at risk under a spoilt horse that is untrained and undisciplined. Its the owners responsibility to get the horse trained for the farrier.

[Dances with Hooves]

I noticed that in our area this year that we had many more flys due to unusual amounts of rain. The flys appeared to adapt to fly spray faster this year as well.

Fly wraps (leggings) help horses stand better. I carry a set and wrap the 3 legs that I am not working on. Once I have done what I can (leg wraps and having the owner spray horse) its a training issue. I either train at my hourly rate or refer to a trainer.

[HorseHelper]

Other than training issues, I have noticed that many horses stand best while the trusted owner is holding them. I rarely ever trim or shoe a horse tied up. I have dealt with alot of horse that have trust issues and feel vulnerable while standing there 3 legged. A person they trust holding them and keeping them feeling secure and safe, not to mention keeping them occupied, sure does help!

Once you take a horse in a round pen and become the dominant figure in their precense you will rarely have a problem, which I wish all horse owners would figure out. It is their responsibility to teach their horses such things, but some of the less than desireable clients think that everyone else needs to do the dirty work. Frustrating.

[Phil Armitage]

I make it very clear to the horse and owner that I do not put up with bad behavior and I do not get under dangerous horses. Black and white no gray area. It is my experience most horse owners do not like dangerous situations either. Flys are no excuse either. I earn trust and require respect. Above all things safety is the most important, especially my safety and health.

[Rancho JD]

6 or 7 years is long enough to get a handle on behavioral problems and eventually more causes for ill manners will be added to the list that flashes through your mind when a horse acts up. its easy to instantly dismiss flies, seperation anxiety, the need to urinate etc... and blame it on training when the horse is acting like a 24 karat A-hole but thats a mistake. details in understanding horse behavior are quite critical. Although from the descriptions in your post and where you call home i would tend to lean towards ideas about horses and they owners and the grief of shoeing.

sometimes i need to stand back from a horse take an unassuming breath and wonder. and dont worry about the appointment book telling me im late.

[mountaintrailrider]

Like I said in the 'Kicked" forum, we're not getting paid to train, us picking up feet once every six to eight weeks isn't enough. They (the owners) need to put in a little more effort to help us help their horse from going lame.

I think also, and I've been in this situation before, I have a tendency (I think it's a girl thing) to take personal issues to work, I've been getting better though. But it's hard to leave an emotion behind you for the day and concentrate on everything but your personal issue. The horses can sense it too and if they're a little bit spoiled, they'll do anything to get out of it. They'll get you discouraged, mad, frustrated, etc. to get out of them standing still for an hour.

Keep your chin up and just think about the money, that always kept me from losing my mind under bad horses! :D

[Andrew Grimm]

I used to care about my horses so much more than I do now. Money is the only thing that's been driving me forward this last year. I really appreciate those horses that stand very patiently, and quitely for me. It's the other type of horses that's given me sort of a rotten attitude lately. I don't like to feel rushed. I thrive on doing the best job on every horse, on every foot; but when a horse is acting difficult I refuse to get jerked around anymore than I have to. I'm also not ashamed to say I may cut corners to get that particular horse done. It may or maybe not be the horses fault but it is someone's; and it's not mine. The quality of my job is subjective to the horses behaviour.


Andrew Grimm

[Gary_Miller]

Once you take a horse in a round pen and become the dominant figure in their precense you will rarely have a problem, which I wish all horse owners would figure out.
The round pen if there is one is exactlly where I head when I have a horse who just wants to be a jerk. After a short time of running laps each time the horse does not stand still in the center of the pen, usually no more than 10 min. The horse decides that I'm the dominant figure and stands still. On the next visit the horse is usually 100% better right away.

It is their responsibility to teach their horses such things, but some of the less than desireable clients think that everyone else needs to do the dirty work. Frustrating.
Not a big deal as long as I can work the horse to get them to behave for me. Once done even less than desireable clients horses start to behave. On the other hand if the client won't let me work with the horse then I don't stick around long.

Gary

[Wade_Shoes]

I used to care about my horses so much more than I do now. Money is the only thing that's been driving me forward this last year. I really appreciate those horses that stand very patiently, and quitely for me. It's the other type of horses that's given me sort of a rotten attitude lately. .


Andrew Grimm

Andrew,
If taking the extra time (which is hard for all of us trying to run a tight schedule) is causing you to have a poor outlook on a career that seems to mean a lot to you, charge more for your time. The difference in charging a little more and doing a few less horses really makes a huge difference when you multiply it throughout a whole year. It might not be a realistic option, but its important to let your clients know that their horses are causing more than a little inconvenience by being violent and no better way than through their pocketbook. Thats usually a language they speak well.
Wade

[Andrew Grimm]

Andrew,
If taking the extra time (which is hard for all of us trying to run a tight schedule) is causing you to have a poor outlook on a career that seems to mean a lot to you, charge more for your time. The difference in charging a little more and doing a few less horses really makes a huge difference when you multiply it throughout a whole year. It might not be a realistic option, but its important to let your clients know that their horses are causing more than a little inconvenience by being violent and no better way than through their pocketbook. Thats usually a language they speak well.
Wade


Wade,
very well said. I've recently considerd sending letters to all my customers advising them of changes, and charges in relation to their horses behaviour. My feiance has 2 more years of schooling left; when she gets out it's going to be a whole different ball game. Zero tolerance for any bull#$#$.


Andrew Grimm

[HorseHelper]

details in understanding horse behavior are quite critical.

sometimes i need to stand back from a horse take an unassuming breath and wonder. and dont worry about the appointment book telling me im late.

Very well said!!!

It would be hard to be a farrier and not be able to "speak the language" of a horse. To know why he does things, what causes it, and what signals you are sending, etc. There are horsemanship trainers out there that can teach to a degree on how to learn the language, but the most important part is spending the time with horses. Trainers like Monty Roberts and Jeff Griffith are really good at teaching how to speak "horse" and if you ever get time to read on it or even attend a seminar or clinic I believe it would greatly help with some of the more troublesome horses.

I really respect a farrier out of Miles City MT. He doesn't rush his jobs, does the best everytime on every horse, and he is a true horseman. His fees reflect his work. I agree with the poster who said that if you don't want to rush and really want to take your time to start charging more. Your time is worth it, and you should never be put in the situation of feeling rushed or crunched for time. No matter how bad a horse is I don't believe we should ever cut corners or rush that job. If the horse is too much for you the best thing to do would be to admit it and advise the owner on finding someone else for the job, rather than doing a so-so job.

My post is meant with all do respect and reflects my opinions. Not meant to be arguementative or condesending in any way, and if I come across that way you have my deepest apologies.

[Gary_Miller]

If taking the extra time (which is hard for all of us trying to run a tight schedule) is causing you to have a poor outlook on a career that seems to mean a lot to you, charge more for your time.
Losen up your schedule give yourself time for a lunch break and time to chat with you customers. Figure out how many horses you want to do in a day and keep it there. Then figure out what you need to live on and charge accordinly.

As for me at this time I don't want to do anymore than three full shoe jobs in a day and I want to be on my way home by 3pm. For me I charge $75 (Average price in our area) for a full shoe thats $225 a day before expenses. This is good pay compared to other jobs in our areas.


Gary

[Derin Foor]

Andrew,

Rank your customers from best to worst.......drop the worst 10% and work toward replacing them with better clients

you will probably find that the worst 10% are making you less than 5% of your income when you factor in time spent, travel, aggravation and risk

(more time for rock concerts too) :D

Derin

[Bill Adams]

Hello,
I'm by far not an abusive farrier who hits horses with my rasps, hammer, and fists
Thank you,
Andrew Grimm

See, there's your problem right there.
My son/apprentice/partner has started training to box lately and says that he is much more effective in correcting behaveoral problems while under the horse since he has learned the proper way to "hook".
I found the best way with the bad ones is the round pen (charging by the hour), but the frustrating ones are the "not quite bad enough".
My two worst injurys are from a couple of the safest horses I do. Seems I'm ready for the dinks to blow.Bill

[Bill Adams]

My feiance has 2 more years of schooling left; when she gets out it's going to be a whole different ball game. Zero tolerance for any bull#$#$.
Andrew Grimm


Maybe we should start a relationship therad , but what is your Feiance doing that's upsetting you so?
We're here for you man,
Bill

[Andrew Grimm]

Maybe we should start a relationship therad , but what is your Feiance doing that's upsetting you so?
We're here for you man,
Bill


I ment to say Zero tolerance for any bull$$$$ from my clients. Sorry for the mix up.
My fieance and I have been together for 4 years. I'm happier with her now than I ever have been. Relationships are tough and we've come along ways. I look forward to spending the rest of my life with her.
I'm here for you all too.


Andrew Grimm

[Andrew Grimm]

See, there's your problem right there.
My son/apprentice/partner has started training to box lately and says that he is much more effective in correcting behaveoral problems while under the horse since he has learned the proper way to "hook".
I found the best way with the bad ones is the round pen (charging by the hour), but the frustrating ones are the "not quite bad enough".
My two worst injurys are from a couple of the safest horses I do. Seems I'm ready for the dinks to blow.Bill


Hah, hah, hah; that's funny. I'll have to try the hook(just kidding). I always have ended up hurting myself worse than the horse.
Your right about the not bad enough horses. That's what my books mainly consist of.

Andrew Grimm

[tbloomer]

There ought to be a school of martial arts just for farriers. The school should teach methods of applying behavior correction to horses that are powerful and effective yet do not have the appearance of horse abuse to the uninformed horse owner.

Natural horsemanship is a wonderful training method if it is truly practiced the same way that heard leaders use it to discipline and control a herd. However, the sweetness and light brigade seems to have a double standard where human herd leaders whisper and HORSE herd leaders kick and bite.

Horses don't get to the top of the herd without getting physical. While it may only be necessary for the herd boss to gain respect by merely threatenening with "bent back ears," when that threat is ignored, the followup ain't so much of whisper as it is an explosion.

The best round pen technique I have ever seen was demonstrated by one horse (a cutter) working another horse (a belligerent spoiled brat) in a round pen. The hook and join-up took about two minutes. Prior to this event, the beligerant spoiled horse had attacked several human handlers. Afterwords, he was broke to follow on a loose lead.

[HorseHelper]

Horse whispering is a sales ploy, in my opinion, catering to Mr and Mrs City Folk who have one or two horses that they just want to play with and have more money than brains.
Horsemanship training is totally different, and uses the language of the horse. I have trained many horses, hooked many up in the round pen and rarely do I ever get physical. Not saying that I never do, because if the situation arises for that physical contact you better believe I am ready, but it needs to be swift, quick and TO THE POINT...Leaving no gray area. If you watch horses they get it done without picking, and if it's an extremely serious situation they will bare down on another extremely hard and then back off and let it go. Most humans don't know how to do that, not to hold a grudge.
Punching and smacking aren't effective tactics, in my opinion. You just need to project that you are aggrivated in a way that is not only effective, but long lasting in his/her memory.

[Donald Ruff]

Horse Helper says "You just need to project that you are aggrivated in a way that is not only effective, but long lasting in his/her memory."
How would you go about doing this?
Don

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

There ought to be a school of martial arts just for farriers. The school should teach methods of applying behavior correction to horses that are powerful and effective yet do not have the appearance of horse abuse to the uninformed horse owner.

Natural horsemanship is a wonderful training method if it is truly practiced the same way that heard leaders use it to discipline and control a herd. However, the sweetness and light brigade seems to have a double standard where human herd leaders whisper and HORSE herd leaders kick and bite.

Horses don't get to the top of the herd without getting physical. While it may only be necessary for the herd boss to gain respect by merely threatenening with "bent back ears," when that threat is ignored, the followup ain't so much of whisper as it is an explosion.

The best round pen technique I have ever seen was demonstrated by one horse (a cutter) working another horse (a belligerent spoiled brat) in a round pen. The hook and join-up took about two minutes. Prior to this event, the beligerant spoiled horse had attacked several human handlers. Afterwords, he was broke to follow on a loose lead.

Might I suggest that its extremely easy to achieve the effect you desire. You need to purchase one of these which I'm surprised you didn't know is essential work wear for any competent farrier who is struggling to command a horse's respect.

http://www.backcloths.com/images/deluxehorse.jpg

Its probably available online in the USA from natural horsemanship sites try www.conningownersintonaturalhorsemanship.com

You also need to take a highly paid professional trainer with you - he goes in the back obviously.

As the horse goes to kick or bite you then all you need to do is quickly spin round and the trainers expertise comes into play with timely and accurate movements of both back legs to maintain a deliberate contact.

not only effective, but long lasting in his/her memory."
Absolutely 100% guaranteed the horse will never forget it.

The owner will also be so impressed that you can probably charge more :rolleyes:

[HorseHelper]

Donald Ruff, There are a few things that a person can do to project a dominance or aggitation to a horse. Most of which begins and belongs in the round pen. One thing that I like to do if a horse doesn't want to stand is MAKE him move, send him out and keep those feet moving, until he decides it's easier on him to stand for me rather than fight and have to be sent around the round pen. Horses don't like to be "hung out to dry", they are herd animals and don't like to be alone. If you aren't in a round pen and they start to acting ugly, make their feet move in the barn or wherever you shoe. Back him up, move him sideways, get his mind working! Get him paying attention. All of this has to be done correct, swift, and to the point. There is fine line between training and picking, it's something you can't teach over the internet. Certain body language can project uncertainty or confidence. Many may not know what they are telling a horse just by how they approach the horse.
You don't want to be the bold, angry dominator...But you do want to demand respect and have the horses you work on know that you are in charge, you aren't there to hurt them, and they can feel safe and trust you. Develop a relationship and most problems melt away.

Thomas_Ride&Drive, I'm glad that horse training and peoples safety is so important to you and that you take it so seriously! :rolleyes:

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Thomas_Ride&Drive, I'm glad that horse training and peoples safety is so important to you and that you take it so seriously! :rolleyes:
erm. :rolleyes: ... well I take it seriously because its what I do for a living. I'm a professional trainer :rolleyes:

Mind you I don't have a round pen - in the UK they're just not fashionable at all and indeed are as rare as rocking horse poo! ;)

[HorseHelper]

I would think if you were a professional trainer you'd have a little more tact and a little less arrogance. I too am a professional trainer, I don't train carriage driving or english riding horses though, maybe that's where we differ in our demeanors.

Roundpens are a wonderful tool, not the only one, but a great one none the less and an open mind would never discount one. Training isn't about fashion, or about what is "in", it's about what works and what causes the best outcome for horse and owner.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I would think if you were a professional trainer you'd have a little more tact and a little less arrogance. I too am a professional trainer, I don't train carriage driving or english riding horses though, maybe that's where we differ in our demeanors..
erm.... and what did I do to deserve that outburst??? :rolleyes: And no question about "if I were a trainer" - I am!
Roundpens are a wonderful tool, not the only one, but a great one none the less and an open mind would never discount one.
Erm and it could be argued that if you had an open mind you might appreciate that you don't need a round pen at all! and that its not factual at all to suggest that with regard to training a horse to stand patiently that "Most of which begins and belongs in the round pen"
Training isn't about fashion, or about what is "in", it's about what works and what causes the best outcome for horse and owner
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: that's odd because I thought you were suggesting in an earlier posting that some training was...
Horse whispering is a sales ploy

[HorseHelper]

I am done arguing, have a good day!!

[Wade_Shoes]

I guess the real point that needs to be made is that all if of this needs to be done before the farrier shows up.

[cowboy_bc]

I would think if you were a professional trainer you'd have a little more tact and a little less arrogance. I too am a professional trainer, I don't train carriage driving or english riding horses though, maybe that's where we differ in our demeanors.

Roundpens are a wonderful tool, not the only one, but a great one none the less and an open mind would never discount one. Training isn't about fashion, or about what is "in", it's about what works and what causes the best outcome for horse and owner.

Hi all,

Been a great summer did anyone miss me. Might I suggest we start yet another forum and call it. Owners and folks who say they train horses blowing there own horns (as if we don't know it already duh were farriers) or simply bla bla bla bla. Thomas this isn't directed at you.

Kevin

[HorseHelper]

Wasnt blowing my own horn, just trying to help. Being a farrier isn't an excuse not to be able to manage and handle horses. I am an owner, a trainer, a cattle rancher and a farrier. Most farriers I know in the area are the same. If you don't want to get kicked, bit, etc, than learn how to handle horses in a more constructive manner, that was my point...Nothing more, nothing less.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

HorseHelper in gray

Being a farrier isn't an excuse not to be able to manage and handle horses.

As a farrier, I trim/shoe horses broke to trim/shoe. Managing and handling horses not broke to trim/shoe to my satisfaction is not part of my job description. When I've got my apron on, I'm in the trim/shoe business, not the training business and I damn sure ain't multi-tasking because some owner is to lazy/inept/ignorant to break their horses to having their feet handled to my satisfaction. I say, "My satisfaction", because my opinion is the only one that counts when it comes to putting my body in harm's way.

I am an owner, a trainer, a cattle rancher and a farrier. Most farriers I know in the area are the same.

So?

If you don't want to get kicked, bit, etc, than learn how to handle horses in a more constructive manner, that was my point...Nothing more, nothing less.

Having survived a waltz or two with horses not broke to having their feet handled, I've found it much easier to simply load my tools whenever somebody tries to get me under a horse that isn't broke to shoe/trim. To paraphrase the pilot thing, "There are old farriers and there are bold farriers, but there are damn few old, bold, farriers." :)

[Bill Adams]

Punching and smacking aren't effective tactics, in my opinion.

This is to report that this very morning I trimmed an old gelding that was pulling his leg away, leaning and walking around with me attached. At each infraction, I punched and/or smacked him and he stoped the undisireable action imedeatly. I didn't have to put the foot down, take him to a round pen run him around a while, join up, work on not being a jurk, and develop trust and respect.

Thomas,
your picture of the people in the horse outfit brings new meaning to the term "Join Up" used in the round pen busness as somewhat of a, shall we say, "sales ploy".
Bill

[HorseHelper]

You all have a good rest of the weekend, I don't suppose I will be posting here anymore :rolleyes:

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Exactly. The worst thing that ever happened to the man horse relationship was when we quit eating them and the worst thing for the farrier was when horses no longer had a steady job and back yard pet horse owners became natural horsemen. In my latest scientific study I found that in most cases a farriers boot joining up with a horses belly has miraculous results compared to that of a book learned natural horse trainer joining up in a round corral.

Kevin

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Wasnt blowing my own horn, just trying to help. Well I certainly didn't take your postings as helpful. Indeed I thought they were patronising.

Being a farrier isn't an excuse not to be able to manage and handle horses
As the "interloper" on this site, I never saw anyone other than you suggesting that was the case. In real life though I've never actually known a farrier yet that wasn't pretty astute at managing and handling horses generally and specifically for shoeing. A farrier is there to get the horse's feet trimmed and get it shod NOT to train the horse. If an owner can't handle a horse and get under it then its not a farrier's job to so do. I would NEVER expect a farrier to do a horse of mine if I couldn't do it myself and I would be astonished if any farrier in addition to running a busy farriery business with clients to satisfy had time to spend also training horses as he was doing his rounds. And I for one wouldn't be too happy if my farrier didn't turn up because he was sorting out some demon horse down the road at what ultimately is my expense.

I am an owner, a trainer, a cattle rancher and a farrier. Most farriers I know in the area are the same.
And I'm gob-smacked that they've all got the time, talent, intelligence, knowledge and inclination to multi-skill and diversify to that extent and without running the risk of being a "jack of all trades and master of none"

If you don't want to get kicked, bit, etc, than learn how to handle horses in a more constructive manner, that was my point...Nothing more, nothing less I would assert that if a farrier doesn't want to get injured doing his job that he needs to ensure he has decent clients who understand the importance of having decent horses who can at least merely stand still and in order to get that the owner either does the job themself or pays a professional trainer.

[Gary_Miller]

the worst thing for the farrier was when horses no longer had a steady job and back yard pet horse owners became natural horsemen. In my latest scientific study I found that in most cases a farriers boot joining up with a horses belly has miraculous results compared to that of a book learned natural horse trainer joining up in a round corral.
However, the fact is that the people who are no horse owners are no longer horsemen/women but are people who own them and treat them as pets and recreation. These type of people object to a good belly kick or any other type of discapline that may be considered abuse.
Therefore a diffrent approach is necessay for those unrully type of horses. I have found that working the horse ether in a round pen or other ways that extablish you as the one in charge works really well does not take very long. 10 min max in most cases and the horse is standing quietly ground tied while I complete the job.
I agree that training is not the farriers job, and I don't consider what I do training as much as establishing me as one to be respected. It also make me the hero when I go to trim a horse that the previous farrier could do nothing with and complete the job easily with no hitting or beating on the horse. It has also helped fill my book with good horse that stand still.

Gary

[Gary Hill]

Gary, you will be even better when you send the owner to the round pen while you are shoeing or trimming another horse, then when you're finished with one you can do the other because the owner took the air out of the next one. I get paid to trim and shoe, if they want to pay training fees that is extra. Best, Gary

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I have found that working the horse ether in a round pen or other ways that extablish you as the one in charge works really well does not take very long. 10 min max in most cases and the horse is standing quietly ground tied while I complete the job.
Gary

Out of interest what do you do when these "pet owners" don't have round pens?

And how do you charge? Do you factor the additional service and time into the cost of standard trim and shoeing or do you itemise it as an extra?

[Gary_Miller]

Gary, you will be even better when you send the owner to the round pen while you are shoeing or trimming another horse, then when you're finished with one you can do the other because the owner took the air out of the next one. I get paid to trim and shoe, if they want to pay training fees that is extra. Best, Gary
Gary, what I do is not to take the air out of the horse as much as it to let the horse know that I will not put up with its c r a p, and that I'm in charge. When you can make a horse move it feet right away you extablish donimence which put you in charge. I really don't consider what I do training. When I do train I do charge at the rate of $25 an hour.

Gary

[Gary Hill]

My point was supposed to be that we need to do our jobs as Farriers and let the owners do their jobs. Don't have to have a round pen when a long lunge line works for the owners too! Gary

[Gary_Miller]

Out of interest what do you do when these "pet owners" don't have round pens?
I don't need a round pen to work a horse, round pens are only a convenence. All I need is a open space where I can make the horse move without danger of getting the horse or me hurt. All that is needed is to make the horse move it feet and pay attention to me the whole time. Sometimes it maybe just a few feet down the barn isle. Other times it maybe several circles on the end of a lead. Then it back to where my toolbox is, which is the only place where the horse can rest. I don't tie the horse as if I need to work it some more I want it to be instint.

And how do you charge? Do you factor the additional service and time into the cost of standard trim and shoeing or do you itemise it as an extra?
I usully don't charge as long as it don't take long 10 min max in most cases. Most of my customers usually add a tip for the time. If I think the horse needs lots of work I will offer to come back and work with the horse at the rate of $25 an hour. Usually after seeing what I do the customer will work with the horse and by the third trim/shoe the horse stand real nice.

Gary

[Peggy Dolan]

Tom,
Loved your quote about old and bold farriers. :p
At the end of my schooling at OSHS I was a senior citizen in the class at age 36. The owner, Reggie Kester, took me aside and gave me a bit of advise. He told me "Young horses are for young horseshoers and old horses are for old horseshoers."

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

I usully don't charge as long as it don't take long 10 min max in most cases. Most of my customers usually add a tip for the time. If I think the horse needs lots of work I will offer to come back and work with the horse at the rate of $25 an hour. Usually after seeing what I do the customer will work with the horse and by the third trim/shoe the horse stand real nice.

Gary
Ah when you mentioned "taking them out and working them in round pens" earlier I thought you meant you were doing something a little more "technical" rather than just basic handling to move away and stand.

I presume that you using this technique with horses that are fundamentally trained but bad mannered/trying it on/impatient.

Don't you get the owners to hold the horse? Over here its its the owner's responsibility to either tie the horse and attend or to hold the horse for the farrier.

If the owner isn't competent then the farrier would tell them to get a trainer or handler to do that for them and to get the horse sedated if necessary.

My hourly rate for training a horse is £50 plus travelling expenses and travelling time at £25 per hour if I'm going to an owner's premises to train a horse ($93.99) and when I was last in the USA I charged similarly.

Again out of interest what is the cost of a trim and 4 new shoes?

[Rick Burten]

I will offer to come back and work with the horse at the rate of $25 an hour.
Gary
Unless you average $25.00/hour when you are shoeing horses, you are greatly undervaluing your services when training horses(JMNTBCHO of course). The reason most don't ask me to train their horses for them is because my training fee is the same as what I can earn trimming or shoeing in the same amount of time($100.00-$175.00/hr. +/- ). And like Thomas, I add a trip charge to the bill.

[Gary_Miller]

I presume that you using this technique with horses that are fundamentally trained but bad mannered/trying it on/impatient. Correct. Lately it been with horses who the last farrier could not work with. I have done at least three horses this summer where the owner stated the last farrier just could not get the job done. By spending a short time doing what I do I was able to trim all around in less than 30 min.

Works great for me and makes me the hero.

Beside picking up other horses because I don't lose my patience and beat them with my tools.

Don't you get the owners to hold the horse? Over here its its the owner's responsibility to either tie the horse and attend or to hold the horse for the farrier. Most of the time if the owner is there they will hold the horse. However, My preface is for the owner to not hold the horse. What I have found out is the owner usually holds the horse to tight trying to restrain the horse so then it acts up even more.
So if the horse get unrully and does not settle down I then drag out my 16 foot lead and take over. I just place the lead over my leg as I work that way if the horse acts up I can get after it right away. I think the horse relax better if they are not held so tightly. Usually by the time I'm done they stand still with the lead laying on the ground under thier nose while the job gets done.
If I had my choice I would shoe every horse without the owner or anyone else around. Just me and the horse. I know some will say I'm nuts and that it is unsafe practice. But I have found that in most cases the horse relaxes and is easier to work when its just the two of us.

My hourly rate for training a horse is £50 plus travelling expenses and travelling time at £25 per hour if I'm going to an owner's premises to train a horse ($93.99) and when I was last in the USA I charged similarly.
Unless you average $25.00/hour when you are shoeing horses, you are greatly undervaluing your services when training horses(JMNTBCHO of course). The reason most don't ask me to train their horses for them is because my training fee is the same as what I can earn trimming or shoeing in the same amount of time($100.00-$175.00/hr. +/- ). And like Thomas, I add a trip charge to the bill.
I know that by no means is my training price close to my shoeing price. However around here for training it top wages. In most cases the customer don't take me up on it because of the cost. I've only had one customer take me up on it. She an older widowed lady who was afraid to get hurt. She is also a good customer so I didn't mind doing it for her and I had the time since I was just getting stated.

Again out of interest what is the cost of a trim and 4 new shoes? I'm currently charging the average for my area. $35 for a trim and $75 for 4 shoes (new or reset). I know other farriers in the area who are CFs or have many years more experiance charging alot less. But since I have no problem finding and keeping customers at that price I have no plans on lowering them. In fact I'm looking at a price increase net year.


Gary

[Red Amor]

Gday Fellars

Read this post well , can relate to all being said

I find myself haveing these buggar times from time to time , as Andy said no matter how nice I try to be

Trainers , Owners ,horses , home , the missuz, life who ever what ever
ME just giveing ME the ****s , it happens

Thing is if youve got **** on the liver the horse will pick it up no matter how hard you try to cover it up
Usually the first and most important attitude to be adjusted is our own yeah
then the owner then the horse
Dont get under the horse untill thats all sorted
stay safe

[Rick Burten]

In fact I'm looking at a price increase net year.
Gary
Music to my ears!!!

[Jason Maki]

In my first year or two I wrestled and fought some major beasts, just to have work to do. I had a few bumps and bruises, but no real injuries. Now, alm,ost ten years in do not get any beasts...most of the time. In August, a horse insisted upon charging over the owner every time I struck the nail(bad carpitus, old dude, and it really was a pain response, so I hung in) Being somewhat of a chauvinist, I did not like seeing a 100 lbs, 5 ft tall women run over by a 1200 lbs animal. The third time he reared and lunged forward, I stepped with him and he came down into the big haymaker of an open handed slap of my hand. I jabbed him twice more with my thumb then backed his big butt up. Made him give ground to me, scratched his withers with my left hand and reached down with my right for the foot. My hand would not work! I had a huge swelling along the pinky side from wrist to fingertip. After two days of ice, I finally went to the doc. I had stressed fractured the radius from joint to joint and though not located probobly an occult fracture in my wrist. I worked anyway in a sturdy brace. Not much fun. I did him the other day with the help of an IV torp/dorm cocktail. What an angel!
Basic rules-respect my space, move away from pressure and all is well. Iam your best friend, and most of the horses I shoe pick the foot up for me. However, kick me or at me and I kick you back, a size 11 flat against the belly. Or a quick load smack... then move on and forget it. Most horses quickly discern who is in charge if you act properly, but some need a good horsey thump.
Best bet... DORM!
JMO,
Jason

[Bill Adams]

You all have a good rest of the weekend, I don't suppose I will be posting here anymore :rolleyes:

Give up when someone dissagres with you? Cowboy up.

What do you have done with the horse I worked on Saturday morning?
Bill

[vthorseshoe]

As an "Old and Bold Shoer",(at 57, and doing drafts of all types and natures, I guess I qualify) I really like the way Tom S. put it.

I have read a lot of good reasons why to and why not to fool with a horse that needs schooling, and your the farrier. Right on the postings within this topic.

The other day, I went to trim a beautiful 1 month old Clydesdale colt. The owner had gone through the bonding with the baby at birth as perscribed on a dvd she had. Did a pretty good job of it too ! But that was where she stopped.
So when i came this time and watched this woman walk up to the colt and scratch his butt i figured we'd be in and out pretty quick. A few swipes with the file to adjust his growth angles and I'm gone.
Here's the kicker. She scratched his butt then held the halter in front of his head, as if to say, "ok put your head in this ". The colt got bored and walked away. She did this 3 more times and by now the colt thinks this is a great new game and starts to run and buck and kick up his heels in fine fashion. Having a ball !!
Now she stops and with hands on her hips as she watches him. Looks at me and says, "what do you think ?"
I looked at this person and said, "I think if you haven't got him caught in 10 minutes I'm going home. (last stop of the day and 5 p.m.)
She tried same proceedure one more time then said
I don't think he wants to be caught today, we can reschedule.
Sh then said, I can put the halter on him by sneaking up on him when he is sleeping next to his mother. Was the last comments I heard her say as i handed her my trip charge and sitting on the over-turned water tub bill.

Some customers are horse persons and many customers today are horse owners. There is a huge difference.

We recommend trainers be sought by the horse owner. Have any of you tried to find and actually talented qualified horse trainer today.
They are not a dime a dozen, and when and if you find one many only know how to train a horse to accept a saddle not to stand and give his leg and foot.
(there are the few acceptions to this statement about trainers.)

That is why I still school many horses I work on. I know when I am done they will act and stand in a manner suitable to my needs.
I had a compliment the other day from a QH shoer in this area. He told a large stable owner, we both work for, he loved getting horses I work on because they have the nicest manners. (I work with a lot of young babies and when they get older I suggest they be transfered to this shoer. He specializes in doing QH)
(I do drafts and Freisians at this stable and the one next door, so when they have a horse that doesn't stand quite well I get asked if I will fool with it.)

I know that puts me in an area most farrier don't care to go, but that just me.
"The old and Bold Farrier that I am" God Tom, I like that phrase.

[Dances with Hooves]

Like bruce I don't mind training horses.

I find a minority of horse owners around here have the horsemanship skills to produce a horse that stands well for the farrier. Over the years I have found that in 1 to 5 minutes I can gain the respect of about 75% of the horses I meet (I dont charge for these). About 15% take 15 minutes and a charge is added. The remaining 10% need drugs, a month at the professional trainers place and/or a bullet in the head and are refered to an appropriate professional.

I have a ton of horses in my book that are absolute angels for me but kick shove and in general bulldoze thier yuppie owners around on the way to the cross ties and on the way out to the paddock after shoeing.

[Gary Hill]

I demand my clients to at least be able to have their young horses halter broke and I trim them at 4 months of age standing by their mothers. They might fight alittle but with mom there by their side they quit soon. Then I schedule them every 6 or 8 whatever MY schedule tells me and we have them for the rest of their lives. They never are a problem from then on and the owners and trainers do admit that everything they do from then on is alot easier. Best, Gary

[goeslikestink]

um-- doesnt it come back to keeping the foot clean and well trianed horse

if those of the farrier that dont mind trianing and have a tip or cost -- then that horse is only trianed for that time thats up to you

like as in my previous post of daily clean out picked out feet ,
i have since leanrt that usa dont do that and expect the farrier to do that
mine would go nuts in fact most would

it basic management for the horse owner to have a horse stand and be there for you the farrier -- not me who wants a law suit becuase it kicked you in the head --if you as i say in gerneral not menat at one person

if those that trianed the horse for the howner to stand still for those that trim and shoe the feet and somthing goes worng then of whome do they blame --- if they arnt there to hold said animal ---

anyways it also depends how much you can do in a day and how much you want to earn shoes over here depending on area average from 55 -80 pounds--- and depending on farrier approx time is 40mins for shoeing
so with the time scale of putting in trianing for said owners -- to said feet
are you doing yourself out of money and time for the next customer or lost a customer becuase yuo spent to much time with a horse that wasnt trianed
in the 1st place which should be done by the owner or thier trainer or if permission given attended to by the yard owner --

over here as thomas i says its not the done thing in most all onwwers are there with there horses as the farrier is the only one thats allowed to shoe horses --