WLD - A couple questions - looking for opinions

[JellyKross]

I have a 8-year old Morgan gelding with acute laminitis who has also been battling against WLD for the past 6-months. I have cleared up his back feet but continue to treat them with the hopes of WLD staying away. His front feet are where the problem lies. Over the past few months we have drummeled away hoof wall and have continued to treat his feet and keep him wrapped with lily pads to support him.

This is where a couple of questions have been popping into my mind:
1 - Is there one type of bedding that may be better to keep him on, or does it not make a difference since WLD is everywhere and if a horse is prone to it then he's prone to it.

2 - The question of whether or not a supplement to boost his immune system would be something good to start him on. And if one is, could someone recommend one that works well?

Just looking for peoples opinions from their experiences with this annoying ick!

[caballus]

Hi Jelly -- my first question is how are you "treating" his feet?

Second question is what was the causative factor to the laminitis? Which brings me to ...

One can "treat" the WLD and the Laminitis but what is being done systemically to PREVENT it from occuring again once you've got it licked? You've got to ferret out what the root cause is and go about treating the whole cause and horse. There's obviously *something* within the horse's system, itself, which is allowing this to go on. That said ...

You asked, Is there one type of bedding that may be better to keep him on, or does it not make a difference since WLD is everywhere and if a horse is prone to it then he's prone to it.

The best bedding is actually none. IF the horse has free access to go outside and pick his own resting spot, then the shed, shelter, stall won't need bedding. Shavings, sawdust, etc. dry out the hooves in an amazing amount of time. (which, you might think is a good thing for the WLD but actually, too dry is just as bad for the hoof but in different ways.) However, IF the horse is stalled then the best bedding to use is Peat. It's absorbent, its soft and its non-drying. Second to that, I like green sawdust BUT .. make sure, make absolutely sure that there is no Black Walnut in any of them. The oil in BW is so volatile that just a tiny amount will cause foundering in the horse.

Please tell us what sort of stalling/shed/footing is your horse kept on?

The question of whether or not a supplement to boost his immune system would be something good to start him on. And if one is, could someone recommend one that works well?

Two excellent, safe supplements are Vitamin C (Ester C) 4000 mg. daily and Echinacea - 1 oz. daily. (30 gms or so)

The Vitamin C is an excellent boost to the immune system and the Echinacea will help to fight off anything systemic that is going on. However, you also need to think of the toxins and such that are going through the liver. If those are not addressed then the same scenario will occur again. Milk Thistle is an excellent liver cleansing herb. Again, about 30gms daily. Both the Echinacea and the Milk Thistle are herbs and can topdress along with the Vitamin C. You can find all at http://www.herbnhorse.com very reasonably and inexpensively.

But, along with all this, as I said, would be to determine the cause of the WLD and the Laminitis both systemically AND mechanically (hoof care, shodding, trimming)

Hope this is helpful to you.

*S* --caballus

[JellyKross]

Thanks for your message Caballus. Following I've answered the questions that you have asked me the best that I can.

How am I treating his feet: Currently I have been treating his feet every couple of days as follows: Once wraps are removed I clean his feet out and run a clean nail along the white line to confirm no "active" white line. I apply a bleach and water solution with a toothbrush to entire white line area. After this dries I treat with either Fungidye or Mycaseptic (I rotate). Once this dries his feet are re-wrapped and I repeat again in a couple of days.

Seond question of what the cause of the laminitis was: Lamintis was due to a metabolic reaction to cortizone hock injections.

Jack is keep inside in a 12 x 12 foot stall. He is hand walked on a daily basis. The bedding that is brought in is not consistant. Sometimes it's very wet, other times it's dusty as hell. Allot of times it smells like cedar, but differers from week to week. I was wondering if a bagged pine shaving would be better only due to the fact that it would be allot more consistant.

Hopefully this will give you a little better idea of where I'm coming from.
Missy

[Dave Purves]

I'm no expert on wld, don't see much of it and thank god for that. The few cases I have worked were all previously treated with either a hoofwall resection that went bad, or hoofwall resection that was imediatly coverd up with some type of epoxy. My advice to you would be get the wraps off of his feet, all this does is provide a good wet anaerobic environment for the bacteria and fungus to thrive in. The best thing known to kill bacteria and fungus that I know of is ultra-violet light, that is sun light, and air. Turn the horse out in a sand arena or somewhere where he can stay out of the mud, keep the area clean and dry and fungidye is my favorite for things like this, but I really don't think that anything you can buy will help all that much. You must keep it clean, dry, and oxygen available. Once you wrap it, you trap it.
just my opinon but I've seen some pretty bad cases clear up with less work.
Dave Purves CF
ps the wld can be a the cause of the laminitis, or the laminitis can be the cause of the wld. Figure out which it is and treat the laminitis accordingly :)

[calshoer]

I would absolutely avoid pine (or any wood) shavings in a whiteline case.
I base this on my own (unscientific) field observation. Over many years ,in every single case of WLD I have been called in to see, without exception, the horse was bedded in pine or other wood shavings. And Living in the barn most of the time. Never ever have I seen a case start in a horse that was living outside, even in knee deep mud. Now don't get me wrong,that certainly does NOT mean that shavings in itself causes WLD, because if it did, every bedded horse would have it.
What it does possibly show however is there MAY be something about the pine shavings that when mixed with certain unknown other environmental factors it may set up an environment condusive for the growth of the fungus in certain barns.And susceptable feet . (remember mushrooms grow in materials like certain dead trees and in forests natural ground compost)
I would get that horse out of that barn and into the largest paddock you can manage, 24/7/. Good hard ground, and of he needs a run in or other shelter from weather bed the shelter with deep dry straw or peat. No wood.
Patty

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
Have you noticed a higher occurence in horses that where Aluminium shoes? Almost every case I see is in horses whose Aluminium shoes oxidize heavily. you know, half of the foot side turns to greenish, white powder, and can bareley be s****ed off of the shoe to be reset. Some horses oxidize the shoe terribly while others do not at all, but 99 % of the mild WLD cases, rally "spots" in the foot, are wearing Aluminium shoes that oxidize badly on them. Do you think there is a connection, and if so, what? :confused:
Jason

[Phil Armitage]

That is interesting Jason, the only case of white line I have ever seen was a horse off the track, older mare always shod in aluminum raceing plates all 4 feet affected. The whiteline aslo caused her to founder. We had a heck of a time with her, she is doing fine now and has recovered currently barefoot, kept in a stall at night in pine shavings. We treated the fungus with White lightning soaks and debribed the affected horn, and shod her with aluminum shoes frog support to stablelize the hoof. Funny thing it seemed to come back in the front feet after shoeing, very difficult to shoe her, so we decided to go barefoot and keep them dry and clean as possible. Things improved much better after pulling the shoes. WLD is very rare in my area almost nonexistant. Maybe some horses have more reaction to aluminum than others, I have seen the green/black spots in the feet near the nail holes that you talk about, never have seen this type of reation with steel.

[caballus]

G'Morning Missy! *S*

Jack is keep inside in a 12 x 12 foot stall. He is hand walked on a daily basis. The bedding that is brought in is not consistant. Sometimes it's very wet, other times it's dusty as hell. Allot of times it smells like cedar, but differers from week to week. I was wondering if a bagged pine shaving would be better only due to the fact that it would be allot more consistant.

Well, the FIRST thing I would do, is trim those hoove walls right back to the white line (trim the bottoms) all the way round where needed to get rid of all the flares and make sure they're trimmed level with the live sole callous; Bring the heels down to about 1/8" above the live sole at the seat of corn; Level the hoof, rocker the toe and mustang roll all the way around. I'd use a Tea Tree Oil based spray to kill fungi and bacteria.

Then, as Patty replied, turn that horse OUT 24/7 (with free access to shelter of some sort, of course, and areas that are hard, dry and abrasive as well as a place to stand in water or mud). With all the hoof issues I've seen the ones that recuperate the fastest and easiest are those who are allowed to m-o-v-e! Especially with laminitis! With laminitis you've got laminae that is already inflammed, the blood in the hooves is not moving through as it should from the lack of movement. This also means that lactic acid (laminitis) is sittin' in those hooves, too, and not moving anywhere. Hand walking the horse several times a day is good but not good enough. That horse needs to keep moving, as its designed to do, at least 18 hours a day or more to ecourage optimal blood circulation in the hooves and legs. Spread out the hay everywhere to encourage the horse to move.

I'd topdress a grain supplement (see below) with the Vitamin C, Echinacea and Milk Thistle. I'd also add some White Willow Bark to diminish any inflammation. Because of using the TTO, I couldn't use Homeopathics so would probably not use those until after the route of Tea Tree Oil spray is finished. (3 - 5 days or so). But, I think I might add some Calendula herb with the top dressing to help heal the tissue that's jeopardized and help to encourage new growth. I'd also consider using some Copper Sulfate on the hooves but also increase the Copper, Zinc, Methionine and Biotin in the diet.

That's the next thing I would do would be to evaluate the diet this horse is on:

Any sweet feed would be eliminated immediately. Any grain high in carbs and sugars would be eliminated immediately. I'd look to a low carb/high fat grain as a supplement, only, to add to free-choice mediocre hay and fresh water. And, if there's no indication at this time for lameness, I'd ride the horse daily. Just gentle walking. I would probably ride bareback and with minimal head gear; a halter (rope) and couple of leads. That's all. I would keep this up for as long as the hooves need to heal.

And, lastly, the 24/7 turnout, free choice hay, grain supplement to the hay would be forever. The Vitamin C and increased Copper, Zinc, Bitoin and Methionine would be forever. I'd be trimming up that horse on a weekly basis to keep ahead of the wall growth and keep the hooves in maximum health/shape/function as I see the horse NEEDS the weekly tweeking. Otherwise, every 4 weeks or so or prn (as needed). The White Willow *could* be used for always with no detrimental effects BUT ... if not needed, then I would eliminate the WW after the laminitis is gone. I'd also use the Milk Thistle for no more than a few weeks on a 3 week on/1 week off regiment.

The MOVEMENT is equally as important as the trimming. Keep up with those religiously. And that's what *I* would do.

Hope this helps :)

--caballus

[John Barney]

I see WLD here on a weekly basis. All different conditions and beddings. Some horses will have it and their pasture mates won't, figure that one out. What has worked for me is digging out the affected white line, no matter how deep it goes, and cleaning and applying koppertox every day for a week. The other factor is regular hoofcare. The clients that have done this and then follow up with a trim or shoe in six weeks usually don't have anymore problems. The ones that show signs again are usually gone after the trim. The ones that wait three months have the same thing each time. For Jason and Phil, I ran into the same thing you are talking about a few years ago. On the old forums it was explained to me ( I don't know who said it) that it was a chemical reaction. Aluminum shoes, steel nails and urine. I found that certain nails made a difference. It seems the more lead in the nail the worse the reaction. Austrailian nails were real bad( they also make your lips black) Mustad were some better. Capewell you never know, some are ok and some were bad. Delta nails seem to be the most consistent. Hope this helps.

JB

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I don't know if I will get howl's of laughter but 10 years ago I started plating shoes with copper and I have put lots on and personally I think it's a pretty good soloution for horses needing shoes prone to black stuff in the white line. I have a friend who shoes and trains reiners and I made a set of copper plated sliders he put on an older horse with hind end problems and he said the horse was sound for the first time in years, go figure?

Shown is a copper plated eventer

[calshoer]

Jason. no I have not noticed more whiteline in those wearing aluminum, but perhaps that is because
1)most cases were shod in steel anyway so that would skew the statistics and
2)The bad corrosion problems I used to see were only with Thoroughbred Grand Champions, so I quit using that brand of aluminum shoe years ago and have not had the corrosion problems with other brands of aluminums.

John, when you say you see it weekly are you sure you are seing true *fungal* whiteline? Is it powdery, light yellow to white, chalky and affecting only the stratum medium, or are you talking about black,moist, and in between the the wall/ and sole? If the latter, that is not the same thing as my definition of whiteline disease.

Cowby BC , how/where do you get your shoes copper plated? Interesting thing to try.
Patty

[J.H. shoeing]

My practice is like Phil's. I treat the WLD with white lightning soaks, debribing the affected area, and then applying thimerisol(sp). When I come back in I can chase down any tracks that may have been missed. The merisol will run the tracks in case something was missed in the initial soak. Usually only the really bad cases are the ones that will have some missed tracks. And I have not noticed any more or less WLD in aluminum or steel, but it does seem to run in certain barns. I have better success treating it aggressively.

Jeff

[old heller]

hey b.c. is that moss growing on that leg?i to have been giving some thoughts to alternative metals mainly cause i was thinking of what there properties may be but i was also thinking of what other metals drawbacks might be.some metals in the copper family are more malleble and may allow for expansion etc.but are they too soft to stay on and what about galvanic actions? thanks for the thoughts

[John Barney]

I guess our definitions are different. The white chalky variety I have always thought was seedy toe, I haven't seen it run as deep. The black variety similar to thrush in the frog area is what I am refering to. It can travel up the entire hoofwall causeing separation. I apologize if my definitions are incorrect. However this is could be considered a true diesease of the white line given the damage it does if not treated.

JB

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

When I reduced the size of the pic it went all green. Plating shoes is really simple, shape a piece of copper wire to the shape of the shoe and place it on the shoe, flux it, then put it in the forge. It does take a pile of heat but the shoe comes out fully plated (as shown) and the copper is thick enough to be reset. Too simple huh. I wasn't saying it's a cure all but copper is death to fungus and it seems to me that a permanant source of copper to the white line is a no brainer, oh and it works too.

hand made rim copper plated, hot off the press

[cowboy_bc]

A very hot item with the young girls I can't count how many Iv'e given out, and they don't rust.

[caballus]

I'm far from being a "young" girl, cowboy, but I'd love one of those! How much do you sell them for?

--caballus

[Mike Ferrara]

I make a similar thing but I use an old shoe, cut it in half and make one out of each half.

[Mike Ferrara]

This is something that I pounded out the other night as a gift for some one. Maybe I'll try plating one. What are you using for flux?

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

Normally I would use Sure weld to flux but for plating I use grocery store borax. I have found that useing a salt shaker is the best way to apply flux. Also use a fairly heavy wire like #12 I found that stranded wire with a courser strand works best. Oh and the shoe needs to be at almost welding temperature for the copper to flow over the entire shoe.

[Mike Ferrara]

I've never used sure weld. how does it compare to something like EZ weld? I've been using both borax and EZ weld...actually both together on some welds. I was told a bunch of different brand names all come out of the same tub. I can see where something with iron filings in it wouldn't work for this. LOL

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I use the borax because it's cheap and works. My guess is that sure weld and ez weld are probably the same. Sure weld is a red color with the fillings in it. I'm not sure why they put fillings in it and maybe I'm wrong but I don't flux the lap when I weld. Do you weld in a gas forge? My welds in a gas forge are really nice but I have to be really really really carefull. When I built my forge I made it so the torch is removable to heat the anvil and is also adjustable in depth for differant differant gas pressures and applications, in other words up to heat a large area and down to heat a smaller area.

[mwmyersdvm]

Just thought I might interject a veterinary viewpoint from another angle. A laminitic Morgan to me just screams "metabolic syndrome" and I really don't care what the tests say (and Bob Douglas from BET Labs will agree), "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, treat it like a duck despite the normal laboratory findings".
Unless there is evidence to the contrary my mantra is "laminitic Morgans have Metabolic Syndrome". (repeat after me :)
These horses typically have poor hoof walls as part and parcel of the metabolic problem. If this is not addressed, no other therapy will be of much or long term benefit.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[mwmyersdvm]

BTW, a six month period of laminitis does qualify as "chronic" and not "acute".

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[mickaline]

Following up on the recommended bedding, where do you find peat? Are you referring to peat moss that is used in gardens? Surely this is extremely expensive to use for bedding? Or, is there a different kind of peat? Thanks :)

[Blindedbyfaith]

My mare had been fighting WLDD for 3 years she has been free stalled able to come an go I have used a Stuff Called White Lightning you can get it at tack stores of they can order it you mix 1/2 vinigar and 1/2 whit lightning activation lasts 10 hours it has helped ;)