What about padded show horses?

[Sentient]

This is just a purely curious question, but do any of you farriers here do padding shoeing for Tennessee Walkers, Saddlebreds, or other padded show breeds? I've never seen it done, and I curious as to the process, what it can do to the hoof and leg (the effects), and how all that stuff is attached. I've never had a big lick padded horse, and never will, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to know more about it. Now, I believe the saddlebreds wear a smaller wedge pad of about 1 1/2 to 2 inches nailed between a normal shoe and their hoof, right? And the TWH's wear one of those nailed to a 5 inch thick block of wood, nailed to a big draft shoe, right? What other breds do this, Morgans? National Show Horses? I know the WHY's, but I'm wondering about the HOW's.
So, in theroy, IF I bought a gaited horse, and wanted to keep some of the big action, but not keep the BIG pad, can you let the toe grow a little longer than usual, and then pop a wedge pad under the hoof to level it out from heel to toe? I don't understand how it all works.

On another note, I wouldn't mind buying a used and worn out show horse just to "save" it from all this stuff and let it live out it's days with normal feet, but you never see them for sale anywhere. Is this because they always DIE from this shoeing and showing? Do they show them like that until they are so lame they have to be killed? Cause you see all kinds of other show horses, from ex-western pleasure horses, to ex-jumpers, to ex-dressage, even ex-racehorses, but I have NEVER seen a retired big lick padded show horse for sale. Where do they end up? I used to have a semi-gaited mare that I am trying to find now, and I used her for walk/trot/canter, but I learned that if I let her go too long between trims (as seen in photos on page below), she would tend to gait instead of trot (I'm not sure what kinda gait it was though, but it was smooth and the speed of a FAST trot). She came with toe-weighted shoes on her when I first got her. I always wondered if I had wanted to bring out the gait if I could just lightly pad her with a small wedge and a toe weight. Anyways, if anyone has seen her, please let me know, cause I want to know what happened to her: http://www.netposse.com/stolenmissing/missing_1/Searching/searchingAbrakadabraVT1998.htm

[Mike Ferrara]

I used to do a fair number of saddlebreds. I haven't worked on any in a number of years so I sure don't want to present myself as any kind of authority. I did ver few Tennessee Walkers so I won't say much about them at all.

It would help if you asked more specific questions about the shoeing process.

I have shod some pretty old show horses. If a horse is retired from a heavy show schedule they usually end up with a beginner. They just kind of keep going and saddlebreds are usually purchased by people who want saddlebreds rather than by people who want to rescue them from being a saddlebred. I can't say that I've noticed a greater incedence of lameness in Saddlebred show horses than in any other breed. The horses are bred for what they do, trained for it and the good ones love doing it. I'm not sure what makes you think they need to be rescued.

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Mike,


I always wondered about those double nail pads. Could you explain how to use those. Not that I plan to use them on a reiner or so, but I'ld like to know. Perhaps some website you could direct me to to see how there used?

Thanks,


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

I watched Ric Redden do a padded walking horse show package as a demo one year. It was intriquiging to say the least.The first double nail pad is nailed to the foot, and left quite a bit wider than the foot so there is a ledge all around. then the rest of the package is nailed to the base pad.
Actually, if the whole thing offers a base of support that is equally centered around the coffin bone, forward as well as behind, it should not strain the horses legs too much as there is support behind the limb to make up for the toe length extending forward.
My biggest humane concern however was the lack of function in the heels and frog of the foot and the terrible foot contraction they suffer over time. I think it is a terreribly inhumane thing to destroy a foot like that even if the rest of the limb does not suffer.
Patty

[Jason Maki]

Patty,
I have only done a bare minimum, maybe two NSH small packages, but my teachers teacher doea a ton of NSH and show Arabs. He stresses M/L balance, HPA and what you stated, but he calls it "base vs. load". I worked with him one day, and he uses heavy two inch foam, and an anti-bacterial salve under his packages. The foam is placed as a frog, which presses against the heavy leather, which receives pressure from the ground via the dirt packed inside the shoe. He did several aged horses that day, and they all had long, but balanced and beautiful feet. He stressed againm and again meet all of your basics, and they will go forever. I would agree that the frog must be added into the equation, but a proper package taking all of the foot into consideration has little or no detrimental affects on the foot. He sdaid in general the longfooted Arabs and NSH are sounder and work longer than the other horses in his bussiness. This may be due to more dialed in management by the owners due to the animals value and the higher level of horse knowledge of pros's and just the better hoof quality of Arabs and there cousins. I really think a good package does not hurt a foot.
Jason

[Mike Ferrara]

Hi Mike,


I always wondered about those double nail pads. Could you explain how to use those. Not that I plan to use them on a reiner or so, but I'ld like to know. Perhaps some website you could direct me to to see how there used?

Thanks,


Ronald Aalders

Hi Ron,

In my shoeing a double nail pad was kind of a last resort, in that, the addition of one usually meant you were hanging a lot of stuff on the horse and I always tried to add as little as possible. I only did a very few walking horses but I think as a rule they keep less of the horses own foot and use double nail pads more often...wow I bet that was a dangerous generalization.

Anyway, as Patty describes the double nail pad is nailed to the foot first. I always put a leather pad between any plastic and the foot when I could.
When nailing the shoe and it's pads on, that row of clinches is actually in the double nail pad.

The double nail pad, among other things, allows you to drive smaller nails in the foot and get more support at the heels where nailing angles would be almost impossible from the shoe to the foot.

[Mike Ferrara]

Oh Ron,

The "Principles of Horseshoeing 2" has a fairly good section on shoeing gaited horses. The build sequence offered there isn't exactly the way I do it and I never had a "shoe extension shart". LOL but you'll get the idea. I simply fit the double nail pad and a leather pad to the foot leaving plenty in the heels (length and width), finished it, and then build the rest of the package to that.

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Guys,

I don't have the book Mike mentioned, I got a lot but not that one. I kind of get the picture you nail a pad to the foot with or without a leather pad in between, as a platform to get the rest of your package on. But How do you nail the package to the double nail pad? Do you use the ledge and drive nails downward? Do you screw the package to the double nailpad?


Ronald Aalders

[Sentient]

Hi Guys,

I don't have the book Mike mentioned, I got a lot but not that one. I kind of get the picture you nail a pad to the foot with or without a leather pad in between, as a platform to get the rest of your package on. But How do you nail the package to the double nail pad? Do you use the ledge and drive nails downward? Do you screw the package to the double nailpad?


Ronald Aalders

That's kind the stuff I am wondering too. That and do you finish the bottom of the package with a big huge draft horse shoe, or is it just wood on the ground? Is there some glue, or silicone going on in some of these layers to keep it all glued together, or is it all nails and screws, plus the one band over the hoof on top?

As far as why I seem to think they need "rescued" from it all, do these horses really look HAPPY to YOU?

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~sschmidt/breed_id2/horses/h_twh2.jpg

http://www.horsephotographer.com/HorseTennesseeWalking/Photograph4/photograph.jpg

http://www.dresdenenterprise.com/wc/Attractions/Walking_Horse82B363B0.jpg

http://www.justsomefans.com/MIAf21-horse.jpg

[Mike Ferrara]

Hi Guys,

I don't have the book Mike mentioned, I got a lot but not that one. I kind of get the picture you nail a pad to the foot with or without a leather pad in between, as a platform to get the rest of your package on. But How do you nail the package to the double nail pad? Do you use the ledge and drive nails downward? Do you screw the package to the double nailpad?


Ronald Aalders

The double nail pad is finished to the lines of the foot like any other pad. Normally the nails used to hold the rest of the package to the double nail pad will be clinched in the double nail pad (exiting the side of the pad and comming from the shoe) just as they would be in the foot. Pilot holes can be drilled to make things easier and screws can be used also.

[Mike Ferrara]

That's kind the stuff I am wondering too. That and do you finish the bottom of the package with a big huge draft horse shoe, or is it just wood on the ground? Is there some glue, or silicone going on in some of these layers to keep it all glued together, or is it all nails and screws, plus the one band over the hoof on top?

Generally everything is held together with the nails that hold the shoe and or double nail pad on although as I pointed out in my last post screws can be used too and with all the adhesives on the market today I'm sure some one has found a use for some of those too.

On the bottom of the package is a shoe. It's not a draft horse shoe though. Again, keep in mind that the idea, at least with Saddlebreds is to use as little weight and extended length as you need. Many Saddlebreds are shod with a single flat leather pad or maybe a leather pad and wedge. Additionally many of the shoes used aren't much heavier than any other shoe. The difference being that a typical saddlebred shoe will have a wider web at the toe to position more of the weight forward as both the amount of weight and the placement of the weight are adjusted.

As far as why I seem to think they need "rescued" from it all, do these horses really look HAPPY to YOU?



I don't know that they look unhappy either. However, I don't care to single handedly take on the job of defending the saddlebred industry. I've seen crippled 2 year old race horses. I've seen people protest the fact that carriage horses have to pull carriages. I've seen worn out livery horses who have to spend all day being ridden by people who can't ride constantly abusing their mouths and sides. I've seen polo ponies ridden into the ground. I've seen backyard pleasure horses spoiled and mismanaged to the point that they're good for nothing and even dangerous to be around. Heck breeding practices of all breeds can be brought into question if you ask me. Lots of horses are predestined to a life of lameness or other illness right from the start. Shoot, I've seen plenty of trail horses who look just plain misserable.

Any of these (or other) groups who wish to convince anyone that they are more humane or that their horses are any healthier or happier than any one elses needs to use data...or at least something more than their opinion of what they think horses like...or what they think they would like if they were a horse.

What do you think of the life of a plow horse or a mule pulling oar carts in and out of a mine? Or the life of the person who has/had to walk along behind them? Chickens and cattle, now they have it tough..well hopefully tender. LOL

Well that's my philosophy lecture for the evening.

[Ronald Aalders]

Thanks Mike,


To all those nature lovers out there that don't have a clue what nature is about.

I've seen a (translated Russian) movie once on horses living in the wild out there. You know what happens to crippled ones? They get eaten. They filmed a horse that got eaten while still breathing, while wolves were gnawing his belly at the same time. I can tell you that horse did not look too happy either! But that's natural!

If our horses get lame we at least try to do something about it. Although it's very UNnatural to even trim a horse! Who ever came up with the idea that nature is so much better for a horse?

I'm pretty sure at the time that horse was eaten by wolves he wished he was a show horse!



Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

To get back to the frog thing....perhaps the packages I have seen in person or (or seen pictures of )are just ones where the farrier didn't heed the importance of trimmingh heels properly or supporting ther frog.
I have the USDA pamphlet on the 'scar 'rule, (determing illegal pastern scars) so it shows a lot of feet close up from the rear ,and about every one of their examples is horribly contracted to the point of seriously deformed. (and some of the ecamples are of NOT scarred) .
Knowing how I get heels to spread in part by bringing the breakoer point back closer under the tip of P3 (it really is one of the important factorsin spreading frogs and heels) I find it idifficult to see how the frog and heels could possibly stay healthy and wide with all that toe and the breakover point out so forward even if they had frog support material added to the package.
As to inhumane equine disciplines, I find a lot of inhumanity exists in most of them, not just the long footed gaited horses. Just watch any western pleasure class .
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

But Patty, what else are we supposed to do with those pleasure horses? Eat them?



Ronald Aalders

[Greg Thomas]

Me thinks-the worst thing that happened to big lick walkers was the 4" rule( the pad could not be more than 4" at the toe-1980's???). Good intentions but bad results. Before any rules the packages could be any height and most had the top (bottom of hoof)and bottom(ground surface) nearly parallel. Most had a somewhat normal hoof. So to get the same length and weight they now let the toe grow and make it back up with wedges. This makes it much harder to turn a ex-show horse into a pleasure/trail type horse. The foot does not load correctly. Some of these horses will never be able to be flatshod and be sound. Most will. From reading about the other breeds of horses ya'll talk about on this board-I can't help but thing that gaited type horses have much more adaptable legs, feet, etc. and can be changed much easier and stay sound (enough)than other breeds.

All of these big licks are "sored".

Greg Thomas

[Mike Ferrara]

From reading about the other breeds of horses ya'll talk about on this board-I can't help but thing that gaited type horses have much more adaptable legs, feet, etc. and can be changed much easier and stay sound (enough)than other breeds.



You're not kiddin. From what I'm reading these other horses have to be barefoot with a wildhorse trim and have a special pasture constructed so they have just the right kind of ground surface to walk on or...they founder, their heels contract, they go navicular on you, their circulation stops and their kidneys fail. :D

[calshoer]

Ronald. What we should we do with the pleasure horses? For starters plea push the show and breed associations to quit allowing the judges to reward that heads-down in the dirt ,forced short striding sickening artificial movement that results in toe first foot landing, which is now proven to be a main factor in contributing to coffin joints ,impar ligament,and navicular damage.Why do you think the big barns have so many nerved horses, or vets coming in monthly going through the show herd doing coffin joint injections? That's what we should do. Scream loudly to the humane associations.
Those horses need to be allowed to move again like they did back in the early days of show pleasure horses....like a horse is supposed to.
Reaching out to the length of their natural stride, landing heel first, collected with a nice round back, hind legs actually pushing the horse forward at a reasonable pace, and their damn heads up where they belong. Not being jerked in the face in the warm up arena if they actually try to trot or canter in a straight line and go faster than a crab walking crooked CRAWL..
Patty

[Mike Ferrara]

Patty,

My wife tells me that chages are being pushed in the quarter horse and/or paint associations. She works for a paint horse breeder who has some horses that I know go that way. I know I've lead a sheltered life but I hadn't ever seen anythiong like that and asked what was wrong with the horse.

[Ronald Aalders]

Patty,


Both NSBA and AQHA have taken steps to improve the gait horses are shown in. They had to do something after causing the mess in the first place. I can not begin to imagine how they ever managed to let it come that far. Nor can I understand how organizations like those can almost kill WP and get away with it. (We're talking not asking for any extensions in gait because none of the competitors would be able to do it, and if extensions of gait were asked, not showing them was not penalised, because they'ld have to send the entire class out. Everybody knew exactly what was going on but chose not to do anything.)

Of course horse trainers and breeder play their role too, but those guys are just trying to make money within the frame offered.

Dale Livingston and Alex Ross made a video for AQHA explaining competitors and judges how they wish to see horses move. As a first attempt trying to change the frame that trainers (competitors) and breeders work in, its ok. But the real changes will have to come overtime. When trainers/competitors and breeders have adapted to the new rules. Which btw at this time cause a lot of problems in Europe, especially at the smaller shows. (I don't get to see the weekend shows in USA, they don't fly me in to do those horses......) but I bet it's not much different. With the video showing the way rules are explained in future now the judges have to come to accept the new frame and judge accordingly. I wonder if AQHA has realized how big the problem really was. Bringing out the tape is only the first step, now judges worldwide need to be re-schooled. Send guys out doing that. Not just to the Amarillo area, but world wide! Let them spend the money, they created the mess in the first place.


Ronald Aalders