Barefoot Tennessee Walkers

[Mustanglady62]

I received a Walker as a gift and I would like to keep her barefoot. Is there a specific length I should keep her hooves? I have always owned quarter horses so Walkers are new to me. Can we trim her as we would our QH's or is there a special way to trim?

Thanks

[sublimequine]

I'm not a farrier, but from my own experiences and from seeing farriers work on gaiteds and non-gaiteds alike, I think a lot of farriers will agree with me that trimming a QH and trimming a TWH isn't that different at all.

A horse is a horse is a horse is a horse. Unless you're worried about how much action you're getting out of the horse, a 'regular' trim should do the job just fine.

[Gary Hill]

Actually there is alittle differance in that you want to leave alittle more toe on the gaited horses fronts. If you don't they get abit too pacy. Alot of riders don't care because it is a smooth gait. I have quite a few and gain more all the time because Qt's and performance horses need the short toe so they can do what they do best and the gaited horses need more toe to make them do what they do best. Hope this helps? Gary

[T.L. Buck]

Actually there is alittle differance in that you want to leave alittle more toe on the gaited horses fronts. If you don't they get abit too pacy. Alot of riders don't care because it is a smooth gait. I have quite a few and gain more all the time because Qt's and performance horses need the short toe so they can do what they do best and the gaited horses need more toe to make them do what they do best. Hope this helps? Gary


Thanks Gary, I always felt the same way. Just make sure they aren't so long that they tend to stumble. This could create an uncomfortable ride.

[ranchoblanco]

I don't know the horse or its size- but just throwing a number out there i would say you should be able to trim your TWH to around 3 3/4 " up front, and 3 1/2 " behind.
I agree with Gary, i wouldn't give your horse a QH trim. Leaving a little toe will help that horse with its intended gait. If you leave that toe out there be sure to "pasture roll" the foot to prevent chipping of the foot at the toe.
Something i do with gaited horses when they're either a trim or 1/2 shoeing is put a rocker into both hind feet as well.
Mike

[Nelliebly]

We have 5 TWH's and all are barefoot and have been as long as we've had them. All have different feet and lengths and angles. You have to go by what's good and fitting for the horse, regardless of gait. Many in the TWH industry will say that longer toes will 'help' the horse gait, i.e. do the flat- and runningwalk as opposed to pacing. However, pacing is one of the natural gaits of the TWH. While longer toes, heavy shoes, and training with heavy chains will make a pacey walker do the walk, there's also a very good chance you ruin the horse in the long run. The same can - and should - be achieved by lots and lots of consistent riding.

On her good days, my 30-year old does a beautiful flatwalk with toes not quite 4". My 23-year old gelding is the best walker and racker with 4.5". Another mare was (Florida) country pleasure reserve champ with about 4 1/4". All have angles that are natural to the particular horse.

I realize that these lengths sound awful long to QH owners, but to most TWH owners they sound way too short. I believe that the rule book calls for toes no longer than 9 inches (not a typo), and there are many with those long toes.

A well-bred TWH will gait with time; a long toed one will end up with arthritis and tendons/ligament problems.

[ranchoblanco]

[QUOTE

A well-bred TWH will gait with time; a long toed one will end up with arthritis and tendons/ligament problems.[/QUOTE]

1. I think i'd rather have a well-trained horse than a well-bred horse.
2. IMO Horses with incorrect m/l and a/p balance will have lameness problems regardless of what type of performance horse they are.
3. Just because they're are a long toed horse does't mean they'll have arthritis or tendon issues. Being kept in balance and proper management of the foot will decide that fate along with alot of other factors ie. conformation, breeding, diet and nutrition, training regime, and so forth.

Mike

[Nelliebly]

[QUOTE

A well-bred TWH will gait with time; a long toed one will end up with arthritis and tendons/ligament problems.

1. I think i'd rather have a well-trained horse than a well-bred horse.
2. IMO Horses with incorrect m/l and a/p balance will have lameness problems regardless of what type of performance horse they are.
3. Just because they're are a long toed horse does't mean they'll have arthritis or tendon issues. Being kept in balance and proper management of the foot will decide that fate along with alot of other factors ie. conformation, breeding, diet and nutrition, training regime, and so forth.

Mike[/QUOTE]

No offense intended, spending lots of riding (read: training) time on a well-bred TWH will produce the gait for "the ride of your life". Many TWH's nowadays are bred for looks, not proper conformation and gaits.

It is exactly the balance that gets altered by growing a long toe, or making it too short. You can fiddle around a little by lowering/lengthening the heel, but that's about it. Many TWH's with a long toe also have very low heels, and I'm sorry, but I do not believe that a horse's fetlocks should be bouncing of the ground every step they take, just so they will gait. The angle of the hoof and pastern should follow the slope of the shoulder, which is different for every horse. TWH's with steep shoulders will not be able to make the desired stride and their gait will be a bit choppy - which is where the "well-bred" comes in.

When it comes to TWH's too many owners and trainers take shortcuts - the very long toes is one of them.

I agree that arthritis and tendon issues can and often do have many different causes. However, altering the TWH's balance for the sake of a shortcut to gait is a sure (and sore) road to arthritis.

Sorry...getting off of my soapbox.

[Gary Hill]

Isn't it funny that TWH's rarely have an sort of navicular problems? The gaited breeds are conformationly differant that other breeds, so you have to get your head out of the sand and do what the horse you are working on needs, that goes for any breed actually! Best, Gary

[Nelliebly]

Isn't it funny that TWH's rarely have an sort of navicular problems? The gaited breeds are conformationly differant that other breeds, so you have to get your head out of the sand and do what the horse you are working on needs, that goes for any breed actually! Best, Gary
Ouch! Will attempt to pull my head out of the gumbo...
I don't 'work' on horses; I rescue the throw-aways. Arthritis in the knees, hocks and hips are more common for the TWH. Doing what's best for each individual horse is what I stated above, I think.
Have a great day.

[Dave Whitaker]

I do a lot of laterally gaited horses, mostly TWHs, a couple of dozen Icelandics,(little rats on crack),a few Foxtrotters,Rockies,SSHs, etc. I find that if you trim them to what the foot/limb/ sole/etc. is telling you just like you would any conventionally gaited horse, they usually do as well as they are going to do for their breeding/natural ability/conformation. We have done our best to breed the gait right out of them and yet, the good ones still wow us from time to time.

I will say, that i THINK, (my own opinion), that in GENERAL, laterally gaited horses' natural/intended hoof/pastern angles are quite different from a horse that naturally trots. By that I think that they are a lower degree in the front and steeper behind , ( when measuring the angle created by the dorsal hoof wall and the bottom of the foot), than trotting horses are.

Had this conversation with a few guys in Cincinnati last year with most of them thinking, "NOT". BUT they were farriers who didnt see 60-70 gaited horses every 6 week cycle either. SOOOO...last February..... I chose 10 TWH and 10 trotting horses that I already had in my care for a least a year, ( so I had my feet on them), and I trimmed them without regard to hoof angle readings, using the level of the live sole as my primary guide, recording the hoof angles AFTER trimming, on all four feet. By Cincinnatti this year, I will have a year's worth of records on these 20 horses. Now I can tell you, that ALL 10 TWH's at this point, have lower fronts and higher rears than all 10 of the trotters. 18 of ALL 20 are lower in the front then they are behind, with 2 of the trotters, (both Morgan's) being the same front/rear. these twenty horses have averaged 7 trimming/shoeing cycles to date and the average dorasl wall/bottom of the foot angle for the TWHs is 52 degrees in the front, 58 degrees behind, while the trotters averaged 54 degrees in front,55 degrees behind.

I know that this is a very small slice of the pie and means nothing statistically, and may mean nothing at all. I do think there is some merit in the fact that there is no oddball single example bucking the trend in this group. I can tell you that without a doubt, almost every time I get called in to look at a gaited horse that someone else is doing that isn't gaiting, I will find him too tall in the front and too low behind, and if the farrier had just established the very same parameters/landmarks in the foot that he trimmed his "regular" horses with and TRUSTED those landmarks, he would have done just fine.

It would be neat to find another 100 other farriers to try this and get a read on 2000 horses, not just 20 and maybe establish something of statistical significance. Fun though, heh? Dave

[Nelliebly]

...By that I think that they are a lower degree in the front and steeper behind , ( when measuring the angle created by the dorsal hoof wall and the bottom of the foot), than trotting horses are. ...

......These twenty horses have averaged 7 trimming/shoeing cycles to date and the average dorasl wall/bottom of the foot angle for the TWHs is 52 degrees in the front, 58 degrees behind, while the trotters averaged 54 degrees in front,55 degrees behind....


Those averages lie well within the official TWH conformation guide. All of mine come close to your averages, except for my 30-year old.

Throughout the years I've had 4 farriers; all but one I had to tell I didn't want the TWH "long toe" but a trim that fits the individual horse.

Appreciate what your doing regarding those stats and trims; there's a lot of discussion going on about the TWH foot.

[Gary Hill]

Is there an "Official" angle TWH's are supposed to be? If so where does one get the official gauge so that they all read the same? Gauges that is, horses' individual conformation has always dictated the correct angle for any particular horse as I see it? Just wondering? Gary

[Bo Terry]

I own a Racking horse and I do nothing different with his feet than with any of the other horses I shoe. He moves just fine. Trim to foot conformation! This is where the horse will be most comfortable. I don't know about some folks, but I work better when I am most comfortable. If your horse doesn't "move" the way you want and it is being trimmed properly, then you either have a training issue or maybe your horse just isn't meant to do it.

"A happy horse makes a happy rider"

JMO,

Bo

[matryoshka]

Hey Dave,

I just took on 4 Icelandics that were trimmed by a farrier who left the toes long. If you just follow the live sole plane without checking the HPA, how do you know whether the entire hoof is distorted, if the sole is also stretched forward. These Icies don't have stretched white lines, but their toes are too long if one follows the HPA.

Other horses I trim have had similar problems, but not as dramatic. After a couple of months, I can see where the toe wants to be, because the callused edge of the wall moves back. In a few more trims, the sole ends there and the HPA matches up. I don't force a matched HPA, but I do try to bring the breakover back to where the leg needs it. I'm concerned about the long-term soundness of the upper joints if the toes are left too long.

I'd be willing to keep records on the Icies, especially since I've only done one trim so far. Several of them are related, and the hooves seem to be similar on the horses of the same bloodlines.

[Dave Whitaker]

First, without photos of these specific feet, we have to agree that we can only talk in generalities.

I would recommend that you not "just" follow the live sole plane, as I feel it is only one piece of a large puzzle. Learning to identify where the interface between live/dead sole is has become an invaluable tool for me with all my horses. Bowker, Clayton, Hood, etc have yet to disect ONE cadaver foot where this interface wasn't parallel to bottom of the coffin bone, (unless Bob found one yesterday). This is obviously in a "healthy" hoof without major pathologies. Not one... how cool is that? It is very seldom that we can use the word "always" with horses. Dr. Bowker has disected thousands of them, not just a few. I think it is probably one of the best ways to determine the approximate location/orientation of the pedal bone without radiographic help. Without radiographs, I'm not sure how you are deterimining the actuall HPA, if we are talking about the same thing here. I have been fooled before and will be again, I'm sure, from what appeared to be going on when viewed externally, only to scratch my head and say "no *****" when I saw the films.

Back to your Iceys...... so..on a new horse like that without the help of films, yes, I would locate the level of the live sole plane in the manner in which I do, which MAYNOT be the same as your method.... consistancy is the important thing here..I may be a 1/16th of an inch higher or lower than the next guy, but parallel is parallel. I would use that information as well as the other landmarks that we use in the foot to trim these feet as I would any horse, gaited or not. Address the flairs, white line issues, etc., stay on top of their trim schedule, and within a few cycles your feet should be looking just fine. Dave

oh yea... if these Iceys were just exported from Iceland, I can guess at what you have to work with. Most of the ones that I have seen have very long toes, and are run forward a bit, and you don't have anything even resembling an active frog. Had one the other day with over an INCH of retained sole on all four feet!!!!

[matryoshka]

I don't think these Icies were just imported. One or two may have been born here in the US. The owner has been trimming them herself to try to do a better job than the last farrier. She was on the right track, but as you say, there are so many variables...I think she would have come up with the right trim over time.

I do look for the live sole, especially at the seat of corn. Otherwise, one doesn't know how much wall can be safely removed. As for HPA, I can only estimate by sighting it from the joint to the ground. Another clue for me is how the hoof grows along the coffin bone in the top 1/4 of the hoof. If there is a dish, there is a flare, regardless of whether the white line is tight. The next time I trim, I expect to see the angle of the wall at the top of the hoof continuing further down the dorsal wall. I can't get totally get rid of the dish in one trim (I don't dress the wall), but if I get the breakover where the hoof needs it to be, it grows out over time.

It sounds like we are mostly talking about the same thing--only you've got a lot more experience. I was just wondering how people who trim to the live sole (without checking the balance other ways) deal with a stretched hoof capsule. Does it resolve itself?

Have you looked at the thread on canker? The horse, Spongey, had a very distorted hoof in addition to the canker. It was shaped like a banana and had a curved sole. I evened the heels as much as I felt comfortable on the first trim, but the sole was hard and smooth so the best I could do was to shorten his breakover. I got a few trims in before the horse went for surgery and got shoes with hospital plates. It was good to have a full-time, experienced farrier work on him, since I wasn't sure I was on the right track. Spongey got reset once. Then, I pulled the shoes because he had tons of exfoliating sole. The first trim after the shoes, I removed maybe 3/4" of sole--could have removed more, but the feet were so soft I didn't want to take the chance of accidentally cutting into live sole. I've been trimming him every week since then, and I remove 1/4 to 1/2 inch of exfoliating sole every time. His toes are coming back to where they should be. The most deformed hoof is now about as long as the frog used to be! His heel is still too high on the hoof with persistent canker, but I'm working on it every week. The problem is that the old sole wants to exfoliate, but the new sole that grew back after the canker, doesn't want to. I get a ledge between the two. So I err on the side of caution.

Sorry for writing a book, but this hoof is changing so rapidly that it is fascinating. At the first trim, I told the owner how I thought the foot would shape up, but it is pretty amazing to see it happening every week. I had thought it would take longer (started trimming him in May).

The same owner got another canker horse in. I trimmed it last week. One can't use the live sole as a guide to trimming the walls when the sole is eaten away with canker. I had to use my best guess based on where the frog *should* have been. He was more comfortable after the trim, so I must have done okay.

Thanks for the discussion. :)