Hoof Bar

[Dressage Art]

I've been told that my mare has a HUGE hoof bar and it's really painfull for her. I'm wondering why traditional farriers don't trim this bar and natural hoof people are really trying to trim it away? why such a big difference?

If you want to see the hoof bars on my mare's hoof, please see those pics

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3568

[cynthia-jay]

As in any disapline, the engine ( or push) is in the rear

I see a different wear pattern in your rears with one with a slightly lower vs higher or steeper angle which also affects the fronts

The white line area is a tinge of pink (possible concussion)

Your bars should be trimmed
they are an extension of the wall

I would like to see a full set of conformation shots

If front shoes improved your ride then I would suggest to your Farrier shoes on all fours as your progress up the levels

You and your Farrier sound like you are on the right track

best of luck to you
as always

Jay

[Rick Burten]

I don't see that those bars are huge. They see a bit overgrown, but all that is needed is a bit of trimming to remove the excess.

To answer your question, each person trims according to what s/he has learned and observed. There is, at least for farriers, no cookie-cutter, one size fits all , approach. Why not just ask your farrier about it?

And, those bars don't look like they would cause pain for your horse. Who told you such a silly thing?

[Rancho JD]

I've been told that my mare has a HUGE hoof bar and it's really painfull for her. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3568

is the horse lame? did this person take hoof testers to the bars? i would like to hear a resonable explanation from whoever told you this.

what i see are moderate bars not yet overgrown or undertrimmed i also see pea gravel and concrete, your horses feet need support would'nt you think so?

[Phil Armitage]

I do not see anything wrong with the bars either, they look pretty healthy and stong. I do see the medial heel longer than the lateral on both hind feet. Also noticed that tinge of pink in the toe. The medial heel bulb on both feet look displaced slightly jammed. I also notice slight bull noseing in the dorsal wall, maybe the coffin bone has a negative palmer angle tipping back stressing internal structures of the hoof. This might cause soreness in the area of bars and front of hoof. I would would put hind shoes on for support and protection. I will add pads and frog support on hind feet with negative palmer angles for support and protection. Everytime I do this I get great feedback from riders. Some horses never develope strong enough digital cushion and lateral cartiladge in the back of the foot. I also think some break down from hard work.

As to your question about farriers and trimmers trimming bars, don't know. I think every farrier and every trimmer does things differently. Depends on what the person doing the job sees.

After this horse has hind shoes, you might notice the bars exfoliat more, because of less pressure on them. Interesting huh? Barefooters might like that idea. :)

Things to discuss with your farrier. Have X-Rays taken to see the posistion of the coffin bone and sole thickness in the toe. Always good to have a set. Good to have a set when things are normal then you can have something to compare to if things go wrong.

[Dressage Art]

Thank you for your feedback. My farrier is comming back in 3 weeks and will do the hoof testing. His helper does the hind hoofs and I think that might be the issue. My farrier only does shoes and his helper(s) do barefoot work.

In the mean time, I'm trying to educate myself so I can drive him crazy :D joke, I'll go easy on him :p

The barefoot people told me that the bars are HUGE. I'm scared to trim them myself. Also they told me that the frog is trimmed way too much...

B/c I'm in the middle between barefeet and shoes lovers, I'd like to get an opinion from both sides.

The horse is not lame or short in the stride - the only thing that she does is she keeps her hind legs off the concrete (shade base) in her pasture, but puts her front legs on concrete. She stands like this for hours. It just looks really strange to me. I know some people say that "don't fix it unless it's broken" but at the same time I heard that horses do NEED shoes 2nd level dressage and up, b/c the do collected work and load their hind feet.

Hence my strugle if I need to put shoes on her or leave her be as is.

I'm really releaved that her "HUGE" bars do not slice in her hoof like a sharp knives in every step that she takes...phew.. I was really conserned there and ready to fire my farrier....

As for conformation shots, please let me know what kind you would like to see and I'll be happy to post them. I also have x-rays. I bought her 1 1/2 year ago and did the full vet check. I have 24 X-rays from that. She came up clean.

[Dressage Art]

Phil, about your signature: one of my friends always says

"the only thing that is free in life is word "thank you" - use it"

So again, thanks for all the replies :)

[cynthia-jay]

Her bars are not overly large in my opinion

The hoof wear is uneven

Would you consider playing soccer,foot ball or any other sport barefoot or have the proper footwear and gear?

The bare foot crowd has adopted the idea that the bars cause pain

The ferral horses supposedly do not have them yet they are not performing as do the domestic horse does, with the added weight of a rider

At 2nd level to keep this horse in condition and balanced up you should in my opinion have shoes on all 4's with this horse

My suggestion would be to take full body shots now and after the shoes are applied ;also video yourself before and after riding the horse

See if there is a difference in performance

Instead of firing your Farrier you may want to "kiss him and take him out to diner"


I am for any horse that can perform their disapline barefoot, let em go at it ,

however you will have uneven wear sooner or later not to mention other problems, including chipping, cracking, ect including frequent trims which is not cheaper than shoes and when applied properly, can enhance performance

Your horse may be a bit tenderfooted in those rears to avoid the concrete/or may have a bit of a sore back if the hips are uneven and it is her way of staying comfy

If the fronts are balanced with shoes and the rears are barefoot as in your case the back and hocks take up the stress of the work and this may be your problem


discuss with the trimmer/Farrier the uneven wear pattern and how to remidy the situation as discussed :Also have them both watch the horse move

You do not mention what breed this horse is, the age ect

best of luck to you

as always

Jay

[belhaven]

Jay I am curious where you get your information on barefoot...not all barefoot trims teach that bars cause pain-quite the opposite...most teach bars have a useful and important function and should NOT be overtrimmed over removed.

I have never heard of any barefoot information that teaches that wild horses do not have bars.

I am also wondering why you assume all horses in full performance will have uneven wear, chips and cracks-there are actually many horses out there proving that statement wrong...including my own.

I am not saying some horse won't benefit from shoes-I don't own all the horses in the world so I can't comment on what all horses need...

But I am curious what support you have for these statements? It just seems a shame to have misinformation shared without being corrected. :)

[cynthia-jay]

I have been to a so called barefoot clinic and host the video on my web sight at www.thehappyhoofer.com

Martha O states Strauser started this barefoot movement for economical reasons and makes claims that the bars left in horses cause pain

Not all barefooters and/or Farriers are created equall and the BO crowd tries to imatate the ferral hoof in structures and do***atioin of studies

Well there are studies and plenty of do***entation regaurding shoeing for performance as well

It would depend on other factors as well including use ,enviromentals and especially hoof quality in regaurds to the benifits or hazards associated with barefoot vs shoes

In this paticuluar horse there is an uneven wear pattern in the rears

Shoes in this case with a balanced trim all the way around may improve performance

best to you

as ever

Jay

[Rancho JD]

I'm really releaved that her "HUGE" bars do not slice in her hoof like a sharp knives in every step that she takes...phew.. I was really conserned there and ready to fire my farrier....

this is sarcasm???

farriers get fired for fluffy and flightier reasons but we dont usually hear the details directly from the source.

[Dressage Art]

Yes, JD, it is sarcasm.

quote: "Instead of firing your Farrier you may want to "kiss him and take him out to diner"

I guess, you figured out that I'm not a man? Huh?.. no, seriously, it'll be my pleasure, he is quite a stud muffin ;) oh, I forgot, I'm happily married... oh well, in my next life then...

Shoot, I can't even see the uneven wear on her hind hoofs, but she is very different on left and right.

Her name is Zena (aka the Warrior Princess) and she is 8 years old Swedish Warmblood. She is as Chestnut as they come and she's a mare. I'm a red head as well, so that doesn't help much either. Here she is:

http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/Zena_2006_pebble_beach.jpg

[cynthia-jay]

My guess is she may be a bit sided / sore

As stated:

Discuss this with your Farrier and putting shoes on the hinds as well

Go over this horse with him and discuss any problems you are having in motion

and her stance I do not suspect the bars to be the problem in this case, however hoof testers would come in handy for you for piece of mind

If no improvement after a balanced trim and shoeing call your Vet for a flex test identify the problem

best to you

as ever

Jay

[Phil Armitage]

Yes, JD, it is sarcasm.

quote: "Instead of firing your Farrier you may want to "kiss him and take him out to diner"

I guess, you figured out that I'm not a man? Huh?.. no, seriously, it'll be my pleasure, he is quite a stud muffin ;) oh, I forgot, I'm happily married... oh well, in my next life then...

Shoot, I can't even see the uneven wear on her hind hoofs, but she is very different on left and right.

Her name is Zena (aka the Warrior Princess) and she is 8 years old Swedish Warmblood. She is as Chestnut as they come and she's a mare. I'm a red head as well, so that doesn't help much either. Here she is:

http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/Zena_2006_pebble_beach.jpg

Her hind feet are unbalanced side to side, not sure if due to uneven wear or uneven pressure in the heels. Hayden Price does analysis on hocks, if the hind end is weak the lateral movement of the hock is greater causeing outside of the hoof to sink into soft footing. This can cause a lot of stress in the lower joints and hocks. Shoeing to support the outside heel helps prevent the foot from sinking lateraly into the footing. Hayden mentions that most of the time this is temporary, as the horse gets stronger less lateral extention is needed. His modification to the extension is done so the extension does not contact the ground on hard surface but acts like a float on soft footing. He grinds the ground surface of the extension so it is beveled. Any kind of heel extension is risky, that extra metal extending beyond the heel can get caught up in things. So use caution in turn out and leaveing halters on. One would have to watch the horse move on the footing that you work and show on and understand the mechanics to determine where and how much extension is needed. Depending on the horses conformation the support may need to be on the inside heel. I preffer useing shoes with one wider heel, this provides support but does not need to extend beyond the hoof too much. I would think at minimum your horse needs shoes on the hind then see how she goes. The heels in the photo you provided are not level. It may be possible to level them after one shoeing.

[Rick Burten]

You have already indicated how much better your horse's stride became when you put front shoes on her, so I'd think it was worth it to put some hind shoes on and see if that done not further improve her balance and impulsion.

Since dressage horses are asked to heavily engage their hindquarters, the proper shoes can go a long way towards helping the horse do what is asked of them and stay comfortable doing it.

Phil already mentioned the bullnosed appearance of the hinds which also indicates to me that p3 is in a negative plane(wings lower than the toe), and the steepness of the coronary band is a further indication of this. His(Phil's ) recommendations for an orthotic package is much the same as what I would recommend. I will offer a bit more detail on the package I would use. I would use a blunt toed shoe set back off the toe. I would forge heel extensions so that the heels of the shoe were directly under the bulbs. I would use a wedge pad with a frog support on the ground surface, and if for what ever reason I felt a full pad was not the way to go, I'd use either a Castle or a McClain wedged heel frog support bar wedge pad. The Castle pad is a bit softer than the McClain pad and depending on results of using hoof testers over the frog, I would more than likely start with the Castle bar wedge.

And in this instance, I thing I would want the farrier, not his apprentice trimming the feet. This can be a bit ticklish to deal with, but I think you have the right to request it.

[Southerngurl]

Would you consider playing soccer,foot ball or any other sport barefoot or have the proper footwear and gear?

Sorry, just had to chime in here.

Actually, a person can do these sports better barefooted. If you asked this question to an american indian back in the day, they would not deem it at all rediculous to play such a game barefooted. I myself can run around on gravel barefooted much of the time. However, I do wear shoes a lot so, in comparison my feet are still pretty soft. The difference is acclimation. Our feet can handle it, if we let them. We just don't like our feet going around dirty and tough. :p

Our bodies are capable of much more than we realize.. as are our horses!

[cynthia-jay]

This paticular horse was having issues

The owner given excellant advice from the above posters

Lucky you to go barefoot

The Native Americans lost to the whites

The horse would improve dramitacillay with a balance trim and shoes

best to you

as always

Jay

[wrightdanes]

Maybe your horse is soring because the sole callous has been trimmed? I see there is a lot of dead sole and a bit of layed over bar, but the tip of the toe looks worn away. Might just be the picture.