What do I need to do to correct this??

[The Even Slower than Slow]

I've had some xray taken of my horse and didn't realise until after the xray where taken how badly I've been shoeing my horse :(

The fronts are the worst, the backs from what the vet said are correct as I've managed to get the back of the shoe over the butrice of the heal (not sure if I've spelt that right) Any suggestions would be really appreciated as I'm always still learning.
http://www.geocities.com/nouzeel/Mypage.html

I hope I've done this correctly but there are 2 xray's on there 1 Left Front and 1 Right front

[THamilton]

Please post pictures of the foot. Side/front/rear and bottom with the foot cleaned please. X-rays show some things but it is nice to see the actually foot too.

Thanks,
tony

[SlowShoe]

I would start with bringing the breakover point back. You'll have to start useing side clips instead of toe clips. Do you have larger pictures?

[The Even Slower than Slow]

I've only got those xray's at the moment and it's currently night time here at the time of posting this. So I'll grab photo's tomorrow, and try to post them.

[Brian Gwartz]

From the x-ray, which can't show everything, I can see that there is a large strain between P1 and P2. The foot is not under the horse, that angle has to be changed.
I can also see that the shoe is more in front of the leg than the foot is.
Moving it back can be tricky. Just moving the shoe back or the breakover point back doesn't work because that won't correct the angle pressure on the P1 and P2 joints.
You may have to cut off toe every week for a while, while the heel grows out and down.

Brian Gwartz

[Rick Burten]

From the x-ray, which can't show everything, I can see that there is a large strain between P1 and P2.
Brian,

Would you explain, for my benefit and perhaps that of others, how you determined that there was a large strain between p1 and p2.

I agree that the shoe is mal-positioned, but don't you think that with this radiograph, a competent farrier should be able to determine +/- where breakover should occur, how much heel support is necessary, etc.

[The Even Slower than Slow]

thanks for the info. I've managed to get a mate of mine (who I haven't seen in a long time) to sort it out and in the process teach me a thing or 3. He cut the toe and has place quarter clips on the front to bring the shoe back further, cut and heal back but place wedge under them to support the heal a bit better, and then told me to come back in 4 weeks and access the situation. In all this process I still haven't been able to talk photo's as I can't find my camera so that will have to be my next investment.

Brian one thing though what do you mean by " the long strain between P1 and P2" I know this will probably sound silly but also what is the P1 and P2??? :confused:

[Rick Burten]

Brian one thing though what do you mean by " the long strain between P1 and P2" I know this will probably sound silly but also what is the P1 and P2??? :confused:
For this reply, I changed the color so I wouldn't go blind or get a migraine

P1= the long pastern bone/first phalanx/phalanges

p2= the short pastern bone

p3= the coffin bone/pedal bone

[calshoer]

It sounds like your friend is getting it on the right track. Basically (from the Xrays) the shoe probably needed to be slid back more, backed off the toe some. And then the overhanging toe just bevelled in the front bottom edge, not dubbed off.
On a light hearted note, since the bone alignment didnt look too bad I was going to suggest just marking a line across the sole an inch behind the frog tip, drawing it on the sole and the shoe. Then take the shoe off, grind off the clip and turn it around backward and nail it on again with the lines still matching on the the foot and shoe. Instant "open toed egg bar shoe" with breakover brought back, problem solved.... :D
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

From the x-ray, which can't show everything, I can see that there is a large strain between P1 and P2. The foot is not under the horse, that angle has to be changed.
I can also see that the shoe is more in front of the leg than the foot is.
Moving it back can be tricky. Just moving the shoe back or the breakover point back doesn't work because that won't correct the angle pressure on the P1 and P2 joints.
You may have to cut off toe every week for a while, while the heel grows out and down.

Brian GwartzHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM One major malady????

[calshoer]

Moving it back can be tricky. Just moving the shoe back or the breakover point back doesn't work because that won't correct the angle pressure on the P1 and P2 joints.HUH? I've been at this for nearly 25 years now read nearly every anatomy book available and never heard of any "P1 and P2 joints" OR "angle pressure" .
And there are certainly a P1 and P2 BONES, but never a joint named that.
And Brian, FYI, moving the breakover back CAN change the alignment of the coffin joint. It has been proven.
Geesh.
Patty

[mountaintrailrider]

Calshoer,
The P1 P2 and P3 joint is the same thing as saying the coffin joint, pastern joint and fetock joint. Example from http://www.upei.ca/~vca341/equinelimbs/index.html

Metacarpophalangeal or metatarsophalangeal joint = Fetlock

Proximal interphalangeal joint = Pastern

Distal interphalangeal joint = Coffin joint

Just for your information, I apologize if I sound "know it all-ish"

Ashley

[calshoer]

Ashley,
First, the question about joint names wasn't directed at you anyway .
Second, I TEACH equine anatomy to my college farrier science class so I perfectly well know the terminology.
That said.... about your statement, Calshoer,
The P1 P2 and P3 joint is the same thing as saying the coffin joint, pastern joint and fetock joint. You're wrong.
The coffin joint involves P2, P3 and the distal sesamoid (the navicular bone, NOT P1.
The fetlock joint involves P1 and the distal cannon bone, NOT P2 or P3.
The pastern joint involves P1 and P2 , NOT P3.
And your reference about doing radiography also does not seem to use any "P2- P3 joint" or similar terms, (nor do any anatomy texts thaty I know of ) as the farrier in question here did, and failed to to respond to when questioned about it. He made some statements about being able to see joint stresses that he can not seem to answer. Patty
Patty

[Redd Mcintyre]

Jaye, Would you mind explaining the highlights on the xray. I'm not very clear in what you have marked up and/or what I'm supposed to see
Thanks Redd Mcintyre

[Rick Burten]

Calshoer,
The P1 P2 and P3 joint is the same thing as saying the coffin joint, pastern joint and fetock joint.
No, you are quite incorrect.
[Example from http://www.upei.ca/~vca341/equinelimbs/index.html
If anything, this reference clearly contradicts your assertions.
I apologize if I sound "know it all-ish"
Nothing to apologize for as you have demonstrated your "know nothing-ishness"

However, the door is now open, let the education commence........

[Brian Gwartz]

Thank you all for your comments. Sorry to have been off the list for so long and not able to answer more quickly.

I apologize for using the shortened (and incorrect) form of nomenclature, i.e., P1 and P2 joints. I should have said the joint between the P1 and P2 bones and the joint between the P2 and P3 bones. Since these bones are known by several names I just hope to be clear and when typing it seems abbreviations are common. Again, my bad.

There are a couple of things to look at in terms of the joint space. The first is that the intraarticular distance should be the same all the way across the joint surface. Sometimes the angle of the x-ray makes this not true, but it is a good general rule to follow. Joints that have a wider space on one side and a narrower space on the other (side of the same joint) are painful no matter how clean the joint surface looks. The second thing is the sharpness of the joint line on the x-ray. Fuzzy lines indicate arthritis. Arthritis is usually painful, but again, not always. Clean, sharp line can also be painful. So there is no hard and fast rule to follow.

The next thing to look at is that you should be able to draw a straight line through the middle of P1, P2, and P3, when the horse is standing at rest. Of course you can get fooled if the horse is not standing in neutral position when the x-ray is taken, so making absolute pronouncements just makes one wrong, but that is the general rule one wants to follow. There is a pronounced arc (imaginary line) through these three bones in this case. In this case the flexor tendon will be too long and the extensor tendon too short. This exaggerates the malposition of the bones, puts too much weight on parts of the articular surface instead of distributing the weight evenly over the entire articular surface, as was originially intended when the joints were designed. Of course, at the extremes of hard work and high level performance there are moments when the pressure is not evenly distributed across the entire joint surface. Finally, the shoe is seen to extend in front along this arc on the x-ray. It is (incorrectly) in the same direction ahead of the foot as the arc through the bones are "traveling". This makes the problem worse.

Of course, moving the shoe "back" is required. I meant to say that moving the shoe back is not a simple nor trivial thing to do and may not be enough to correct the problem on its own. For example, when you move the front of the shoe "back", you cannot extend the back of the shoe beyond the heals. There is some discussion about whether you can put the back of the shoe at the buttrice of the heal even though you don't have any heal there. Like most things you can do it, but I think that if you do, you should put some synthetic material there to give support. If you do not do that the "trailer", which the metal that extends beyond the heal serves as a lever with the end of the heal being the fulcrum. This actually crushes the heal and so it will not grow as fast as it needs to grow. In order to correct this problem one of the things you need to get heel to grow faster than toe. That will line up the bones P1,2,3, even the pressure on the joints, lengthen the extensor tendon, shorten the flexor tendon and keep you moving in the right direction.

Another problem is if you try file off hoof wall to move the foot and shoe back to make the breakover point more physiologic. Making the breakover easier is good to do and helpful in the short term, but there is a mechanical and structural price to pay, expecially if you "square" the front of the foot. I understand doing it if you have a big show coming up, but the foot (assumed front) needs to be round. Round has greater structural strength than square. Thinning the hoof wall has a price. The capsule can be stretched forward by the weight of the horse and the foot will continue to move forward, the problem will not correct you will continue to have flare in front. Squaring of the toe makes the sides stretch. So if you need to do it for a while, fine, but begin working at making the hoof round as soon as possible. Of course, you have to remove flare. But if you have flare you have to level the bottom of the foot to correct that problem. Even if you do a perfect job on the foot the first time, the tendons are out of place and length and so the flare will return shortly because the tendon position is not correct. Frequent balancing (shoeing) are often necessary to give the tendons time to correct and prevent a return of the flare.

Of course, as Patty said, turning the shoe backward, protecting the heels from wear and letting the toe wear as if the horse were barefoot tends to correct this problem. Letting the heels grow and shortening the toe from underneath is the ultimate solution. Failure to keep the balance between toe and heel length (i.e. toe too long and heel too short) is what caused this problem. We should discuss if the back of the "backward" shoe should be "straight" or "eggshaped". I vote for the former.

Wedge shoes may have a place, but also have some problems and this note is way too long.

Thank you, Patty, for your 25 years of teaching anatomy classes. I know it is a tremendous contribution to the equine industry.

Brian Gwartz

[calshoer]

Brian said: If you do not do that the "trailer", which the metal that extends beyond the heal serves as a lever with the end of the heal being the fulcrum. This actually crushes the heal and so it will not grow as fast as it needs to grow.Only crushes it if you do not trim all underrun heel down/back first. In other words legthen the base of the hoof itself and engage the frog. In order to correct this problem one of the things you need to get heel to grow faster than toe. That will line up the bones P1,2,3, Maybe, for a while, but growing heels very much beyond the live sole plane and failing to add frog support will eventualy cause secondary heel pain (caudal foot pain, maybe the most common man made cause of equine lameness) and possible prolapse of the digital cushion and frog downward through the tall heels, again misaligning the bones internally while leaving a false sense that things are lined up via a guage or sighting the external foot and pastern .
On the other hand, trimming underrun low heels OFF more, and thereby creating more frog support and movign breakover point back instantly improves a broken back coffin joint anlignment by supporting the coffin joint from underneath. This has been repeatedly and easily proven via before and after radiographs. .....even the pressure on the joints, lengthen the extensor tendon, shorten the flexor tendon and keep you moving in the right direction.Certainly the right goals, but I go about it in a very different way thabn you do ,one that utilizes the INTERNAL structures of the hoof rather than lengthening the heels of the the hoof capsule.Thank you, Patty, for your 25 years of teaching anatomy classes. I know it is a tremendous contribution to the equine industry. To be clear, I never said I have been teaching anatomy 25 years. I've been *shoeing* full time 25 years and now also teach farrier science class at a local community college, which includes anatomy in the course. If I was unclear on that, sorry.
BTW, if you just call the coffin joint a coffin joint, everyone knows what it is......no need to get creative ;) Patty

[Rick Burten]

I apologize for using the shortened (and incorrect) form of nomenclature, i.e., P1 and P2 joints. I should have said the joint between the P1 and P2 bones and the joint between the P2 and P3 bones.
Nah, you should have said "the pastern joint" and the 'coffin joint", or, if you wanted to be technical , "The Proximal Interphalangeal Joint(PIPJ)" and "the Distal Interphalangeal Joint(DIPJ)".
There are a couple of things to look at in terms of the joint space. The first is that the intraarticular distance should be the same all the way across the joint surface.
With regard to the radiographs in question, this seems to be the case with the left front more so than the right front
Joints that have a wider space on one side and a narrower space on the other (side of the same joint) are painful no matter how clean the joint surface looks.
Cites?
The second thing is the sharpness of the joint line on the x-ray. Fuzzy lines indicate arthritis.
What would you say with regard to this statement, about the radiographs in question?
The next thing to look at is that you should be able to draw a straight line through the middle of P1, P2, and P3, when the horse is standing at rest.
Of course you can get fooled if the horse is not standing in neutral position when the x-ray is taken, so making absolute pronouncements just makes one wrong, but that is the general rule one wants to follow.
Its not merely a question of standing in the 'neutral position' or as I like to refer to it "the default spatial orientation" of p3. :)
There is a pronounced arc (imaginary line) through these three bones in this case.
Since we don't know if the horse was standing in the neutral position, or whether or not both feet were on blocks of equal height at the time the rads were taken, or whether or not the horse ahd his weight equally distributed, reading these radiographs becomes more problematic, right? Which is why more information needs to be obtained before one makes pronouncements regarding phalangeal alignment, etc.
In this case the flexor tendon will be too long and the extensor tendon too short.
Plese define "too long/too short" and how you can be sure that this is occuring rather than an elongation/contraction of the flexor and extensor muscle bodies.
This exaggerates the malposition of the bones,
Actually, is it not the malposition of the bones that causes the tendon length disparity? Or could it be related to the muscle bodies themselves? Or a combination thereof? Or are there other players/factors in the equation?
Of course, moving the shoe "back" is required. I meant to say that moving the shoe back is not a simple nor trivial thing to do and may not be enough to correct the problem on its own.
We are in agreement, as are the other responders.
For example, when you move the front of the shoe "back", you cannot extend the back of the shoe beyond the heals.
Two things:
1. why the h-e-ll not?
2. Since the shoe is a solid unit, if you move the toe of the shoe rearward, the heels of the shoe automatically mover rearward too.
There is some discussion about whether you can put the back of the shoe at the buttrice of the heal even though you don't have any heal there.
Absent outside physical restraint, there is nothing stopping anyone from locating the heels of the shoe anywhere they deem appropriate or correct. Doesn't necessarily make it appropriate or correct, but what's to stop them?
Like most things you can do it, but I think that if you do, you should put some synthetic material there to give support.
If there's nothing there,(ref: your quote directly above), what are you going to support?
If you do not do that the "trailer", which the metal that extends beyond the heal serves as a lever with the end of the heal being the fulcrum. This actually crushes the heal and so it will not grow as fast as it needs to grow.
Only, 'possibly or potentially'. As with most things, "It Depends".
In order to correct this problem one of the things you need to get heel to grow faster than toe.
And you accomplish this feat, how? IOW, how does one speed up heel horn growth and at the same time, slow down toe horn growth?
Making the breakover easier is good to do and helpful in the short term, but there is a mechanical and structural price to pay,
With regard to what you contend after you state "Making the breakover easier is good to do and helpful", I think Archimedes and Newton and their adherants might disagree with you. I know that as an adherent, I for one certainly do.
expecially if you "square" the front of the foot.
cites?
I understand doing it if you have a big show coming up, but the foot (assumed front) needs to be round. Round has greater structural strength than square. Thinning the hoof wall has a price.
Here comes that pesky phrase again, It Depends.
The capsule can be stretched forward by the weight of the horse and the foot will continue to move forward, the problem will not correct you will continue to have flare in front.
Under which conditions? All? Several? Some? Please be specific.
Squaring of the toe makes the sides stretch.
1. cites?
2. It depends.
Of course, you have to remove flare. But if you have flare you have to level the bottom of the foot to correct that problem.
Huh? Please expand(as opposed to expound) on this.
Even if you do a perfect job on the foot the first time, the tendons are out of place and length and so the flare will return shortly because the tendon position is not correct.
:o It Depends. Absolutes are not a player in this particular equation.
Frequent balancing (shoeing) are often necessary to give the tendons time to correct and prevent a return of the flare.
Cites and case studies?
Of course, as Patty said, turning the shoe backward, protecting the heels from wear and letting the toe wear as if the horse were barefoot tends to correct this problem.
I thought you said that extending the heels for support was a bad thing :confused:
Letting the heels grow and shortening the toe from underneath is the ultimate solution.
Demonstrably incorrect because, as you by now know/have learned, 'It Depends'
Failure to keep the balance between toe and heel length (i.e. toe too long and heel too short) is what caused this problem.
So genetic predisposition has no seat at the table?
We should discuss if the back of the "backward" shoe should be "straight" or "eggshaped". I vote for the former.
OK class, what is the correct response to this statement/opinion? (hint: It Depends)
Wedge shoes may have a place, but also have some problems and this note is way too long.
Well, why not continue with a new posting? Better yet, start a different/new thread so that this one can continue without that distraction.

[Brian Gwartz]

Brian said: Only crushes it if you do not trim all underrun heel down/back first. In other words legthen the base of the hoof itself and engage the frog. Patty

Of course I agree with this statement. I appreciate all of the observations. In this case, the question I have is what to do when trimming the heel back to where it belongs, makes it so short relative to the toe that the hoof angle is wrong. I'm not sure how to describe this clearly but let me try saying that it is the left front foot and it would be (with toe too long and heel too short) rotated clockwise.

Let me also ask, when you put a shoe on backwards, does the toe touch the ground, so that it can wear? The 3/8" thickness of the shoe is what is not clear to me. I don't yet know how to post pictures. Do you have one of a backwards shoe?

Brian Gwartz

[Brian Gwartz]

Two things:
1. why the h-e-ll not?
2. Since the shoe is a solid unit, if you move the toe of the shoe rearward, the heels of the shoe automatically mover rearward too.


I apologize for unintentional lack of clarity. Appreciate your comments helping me get to my point. What I see here locally is that when the shoe is moved back, the heels of the shoe also move back. when the trim of heel is done the best that is possible the shoe then extends well beyond the heel of the trim. I'm sure that you all trim the shoe to fit the foot and the heel lengths then match, foot and shoe. What I see here is that that the shoe the fit the foot before it was moved back then has what is in effect bilateral trailers instead of using a smaller shoe or cutting off the shoe to fit the new foot trim. Of course the point that the frog has to work is critical to proper foot function. The problem is that the underrun heel if cut back to where it belongs sets the angle of the hoof in such a direction that it does not grow in the direction that corrects the problem at the next shoeing.

Do you trim the horse every 10 days to keep it growing in the desired direction?

I appreciate the discussion.

Brian Gwartz

[calshoer]

I appreciate all of the observations. In this case, the question I have is what to do when trimming the heel back to where it belongs, makes it so short relative to the toe that the hoof angle is wrong. I'm not sure how to describe this clearly but let me try saying that it is the left front foot and it would be (with toe too long and heel too short) rotated clockwise. First it needs to be understood that observing the dorsal hoofwall angle compared to the pastern is often NOT a true reading of the actual alignment of the bones inside. The dorsal wall may look moch lower than the actual coffin bone. In a lot of feet, only the top half inch or so of wall is very accurate as to the angle of the coffin bone inside.
Hweres how loading the frog via trimming the heels helps to align things.....Once uderrun the heels are trimmed down a lot, the frog is loaded more.Then, by creating that support up through the digital cushion , the lower end of the second pastern bone(P2) will move forward in the coffin joint, thereby lowering the pastern angle, and maintaining the bone alignment of the coffin joint even though you just lowered the heels of the foot. But another part of the equation is the toe also needs to be rockered (or the shoe set back) to move the breakover point more rearward under the toe, to reduce leverage there at the same time .You can't lower the heels and leave the long toe, it just won't work. It requires changing both ends of the foot.
Now, thats not to say that bones indeed be aligned with the lowered heels every single time. Sometimes they DO end up broken back when you first trim all that underrun heel off. So if that happens, then the solution is simple....wedge the foot.
With an appropriate full wedge pad, or a wedge shoe with frog support poured in, or rails, or a bar wedge, whatever fits the situation best . Some frogs will take a lot of support, some very little.
And you won't get crushed heels from wedging or pads because the 'forward running' heel has been trimmed back.
And the really cool thing is that the horses foot fall can tell you a lot, even without Xrays.
If you lower the heels and move breakover point back and he lands toe first , he needs wedge.
If you lower the heels and rock the toe and he steps out nicely landing slightly heel first, he is fine without the wedge. Because if the bones are miasaligned ,he won't likely be comfortable enough to move out correctly to land heel first.
Patty

[balazsborbely]

Well, well, where should I begin this? First of all, all this debate seems to miss the point. Mr slower-than... provided you guys with the other photos beside the Xrays, and nobody paid attention. For me it reads that he is competing the horse at international level. Furthermore, he and his horse live in New Zealand. This means that the horse is living more than likely in the pasture, maybe locked up for a few hours every day in a yard when the grass gets too lush. Why is this important? Very simple: do not even dream about leaving heels or trailers projecting as far as the butress of the heel, because the horse will pull the shoe faster than you could imagine. Reversed (open toed) shoes do not give enough purchase (traction) to ride a cross country course in rain. If the "bar end" is egg shaped, then it will not even stay on for long.
So just follow the real angle of the pedal bone indicated by the part of wall just under the coronet (see Patty's post), get rid of all the toe you can. Using quarter clips makes it easier to tweak the breakover. Rocker the toe, but be careful because there is not much sole to play with. Use as wide webbed shoes as possible, St Croix Eventer Plus or Kerckhaert DF are available in NZ (unless you can make or get some nice handmades). Do not be afraid of 3/4 fullered shoes, with the appropriate studs you will be fine on any track and at least there is more material to surround the studhole. Shoe the horse as bold as you can, but rounding off the edges of the shoe will help keeping them on longer. A straight bar shoe has no extra risk of being pulled, could be beneficial for added support.
Myron McLane Full Support pads are not available at the moment in NZ, only if you order them, but they are a helpful and easy device to put on while you are trying to grow some living (proper) heels. I can not tell by the Xrays if the angle of the MM pads would be too much or not (it is past midnight BTW, does not improve my eyesight ;) )
If you want pads with lesser angle (to combine with a straight bar shoe perhaps), go for the black True Flite pads, they should be available at least if you order them.
Not making advertisement for any brand just trying to give useable tips.
I strongly support calling the joints their traditional simple names for the sake of understanding.
Cheers
One smartazz Hungarian farria livin Down Under. :D
B.

[horseshoer68]

i need to know how to go about getting literature on the anatomy of horses
feet and leg's.the reason i ask is that i work with a vet and he feel's that i'm
not on the same page as him,but when i look at the x-ray's on the horses that i'm shoeing.we seem to not look at the same thing that's on the x-ray's
but i see what i need to do,so i guess i need to read on a lil more on the anatomy of the horses feet and leg's.if anyway possible please send me some info on where to go and get the literature on this..........thank you.

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Why don't you ask your vet what reference books he uses and would recommend. Then you're guaranteed to be on the same page

[Phil Armitage]

i need to know how to go about getting literature on the anatomy of horses
feet and leg's.the reason i ask is that i work with a vet and he feel's that i'm
not on the same page as him,but when i look at the x-ray's on the horses that i'm shoeing.we seem to not look at the same thing that's on the x-ray's
but i see what i need to do,so i guess i need to read on a lil more on the anatomy of the horses feet and leg's.if anyway possible please send me some info on where to go and get the literature on this..........thank you.

Some of the books I have:

Dr. Rooney's "The lame horse" (highly recommended, my favorite)

Adam's "Lameness in horses" excellent.

Natural Balance has excellent educational material.

Doug Butlers book's are excellent.

There is a thread on this forum on a software called the "Glass Horse" I purchased it and found it to be very good.

[SlowShoe]

Man look at all these kiwis on the board.

=]

[tbloomer]

If you can get ahold of a cadaver, you could invite the vet to walk you through a limb dissection. Also try to find out where the vet did their clinical work on diagnostic imaging for lameness and what text books they used.