Chipping, No where to nail, Fast growing hoof

[SPUDSGIRL]

Hi,
I have a 15 year old Polish Arabian that I do Limited Distance and pleasure riding. I have had him for 3 years. I was told that he was bought as an 8 year old out in a field with horrible feet and no heel. He wore pads 'till his feet grew out then was shoed year round. They tried to have him barefoot in the winter but her chipped up too much. I have always had him shod since I got him. He has always had bilateral center line cracks that are superficial and can be rasped off. I was using one farrier for a year and switched because he was getting sloppy (clearly different angles, always over reaching etc) The new farrier put pads back on to grow out his heels again and I never had problems. That all changed this summer.

I moved to Ann Arbor, MI from Pittsburgh, PA. He has always been on 12 hours plus turnout with excellent grazing and the feed and supplements haven't changed. This summer he started growing so fast that in 4 weeks the toe clips dug in and caused him to chip out significant portions of wall. He was never lame. I put him on a 4 week reset schedule and had to start expoxing his hoof around the nails. He grew really fast all summer. I love my new MI farrier and she really takes her time and measures and is really gentle removing the shoes. She has never seen a horse grow so fast. The good news is his heels grew out and he no longer needs pads. That reduced some weight but every reset he looses 1/4 to 1/2 inch of wall around some nail holes. He no longer overreaches. It is getting difficult to even find where to put a nail. She is taking 1 hour a hoof to adjust each nail slot in the shoe to have it go in the so it will hit hoof. Again, he's not lame. We thought that we were getting out of the woods and the supper fast growth would be good but some of that hoof is chipping as well. The soil in MI is slightly sandier than PGH, less rocks. I ride about the same or in softer terrain and about the same distance. What should I do and is expoxy OK???? I would send picture but he was reset today. Sorry for the long post. Thanks.

[Gary Hill]

If he is growing foot that fast, I don't understand why your having trouble with nail holes? The hoof grows down and forward so unless your nails are not high enough ,that may be the problem? You can always rotate your nailing front three one time back three next or just use four nails and rotate them. OR you can punch new nail holes where needed or handmake a pair for him. Good Luck! Gary

[SPUDSGIRL]

My farrier did rotate the nail holes and punched new spots as well. The hoof just crumbles away where a nail has been. This is the new problem. It looks to me like the nails end up where they used to be with previous farriers. Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Gary Hill]

Well if that is the case, I usually barefoot them until they grow out the bad foot. A proper trim is nessesary and you want to watch how they grow and rasp alittle on the edges as it goes, just to keep them from cracking? Ya might think about glue on's, but I'd go the barefoot for a while route until you see how the feet handle it. Could also look a the diet this horse is on and see what you might need to add or take away? Again, Good Luck! Gary

[SPUDSGIRL]

Here is his diet:

12 hours plus grazing/run in shed. Hay in his stall at night.
1/3 corn, oats, barley mixed by weight about 1/2's of a 1lb coffee can twice a day (easy keeper).
ABC plus, Vit C, E and Selinium, Yucca, and joint supplement. He hasn't had any joint issues but I compete in Endurance and am trying to prevent problems.
The problems started when I moved. Any hints about grass/soil issues?

Thanks Again.

[Gary Hill]

Changes in envionment always seem to show up in horses feet so it just may take awhile for him to adjust? Best, Gary

[Rick Burten]

My farrier did rotate the nail holes and punched new spots as well. The hoof just crumbles away where a nail has been. This is the new problem. It looks to me like the nails end up where they used to be with previous farriers. Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Sounds like there may be some hoof wall infection or the nails are exiting the wall too low.
This summer he started growing so fast that in 4 weeks the toe clips dug in and caused him to chip out significant portions of wall.
This does not make sense. If the clip has been properly set, then there is no way it can cas the wall to chip out unless when the shoe is removed, the clinches are not cut and the shoe is pried off, causing the wall to break.

I would not use acrylic on these feet until I was sure that there was no White Line Disease or other wall infection that was responsible for the condition of the hooves.

Even though the horse was just reset, post some photos of his feet and shoeing. Be sure to include some pics of the bottom of his feet as well as one or two overall conformation photos.

[calshoer]

if you can post pictures of the recent reset/hoeing , it may help in case the shoe fit or nailing technique is an issue.
Patty

[Peggy Dolan]

Something in your feeding regimen caught my eye. I checked my reference book: Lameness, by Equine Research. They caution against supplementing with Selenium unless a deficiency is found via blood tests. This might not be the primary cause of the shelly hoof walls, but it could contribute.

[SlowShoe]

How heavy is your horse? Arab horses are generally compact, but is yours a big boy? Is he hitting the ground hard?

As rick said, it does sound like the nails are two low, and maybe your horse is not being trimmed enough each time. Sounds like the wall is just blowing out on you, and if enough hoof is not removed it can be hard to get under control, especially if the nails are low.

You may want your farrier to consider useing equipack filled to the ground surface to distribute the weight more evenly. This support should help prevent the wall from blowing out. Ive used this protocal with a lot of success. If your farrier has any questions about its application, encurage her to participate here on the boards.

Peggy also makes an excelent point! You may ant to back off on the suppliments.

Pictures would be great!

Best of luck

[SPUDSGIRL]

In response to all the new posts:

I had his Selienium level drawn with his spring shots and it was perfect. He is not on a commercial feed that adds it and he has always lived in areas of the country where supplementation is advised. I can try to get a level drawn in the near future.

He is 15.3 and 980lbs. Size 1 foot. Hugh foot and cannon bones. I am under 140# and use endurance/dressage tack. I used to ride on more asphalt than I do now and currently am riding on dirt/clay rodes and fields. I only cross asphalt now.

I will try to get pictures this weekend.

My farrier had her mentor come out and look at his feet and everyone thought that once he would grow out of the bad hoof and just putty/epoxy to get through the rough spots. She also talked to one other local farrier. Everyone is stumped.....

Also, to clarifiy the toe clips....His toes grew out and the clips stayed put and it looked like the hoof would grow around the clips. Then everything became brittle and chipped away. Should the clips "give" to a growing hoof (sorry if this is a ****** question)? We concidered no clips at all but were afraid that if the shoe became loose it would rotate and cause more damage around the sided where the nails are supposed to go.

I really appreciate all the input. I am really stumped and just want my horse healthy and happy. I know "no hoof, no horse" but he has no great hooves but is still a great horse. Please keep the advise comming!!! Thanks So Much!!!

[Rick Burten]

The hoof at the toe should not grow around the clip. Something seems wrong here. And, no, the clip should not give. Its purpose is to be rigid and provide stability and reduce the forces acting on the nails. A toe clip will not stop a shoe from rotating side to side, it will prevent a shoe from sliding bacwards on the foot(or conversely, the foot from sliding forward off the shoe). To reduce the potential for the shoe to rotate side to side, side clips are the way to go. It is imperative that the clips not be established any further back that the beginning of the widest part of the foot(IOW, just in front of the quarters is where the back edge of the clip should be).

Since your horse seems to have a brittle edge to his hooves, this indicates to me that either the feet are, overall, too long, or there is an infection present, or there is other hoof pathology(imbalance, long toe/low heel. etc), the shoes are not fitted correctly, the nails are not driven high enough, or any combination there of.

Once you post the photos of his feet, we will be in a better(if not perfect) position to offer our advise and ideas.

[SPUDSGIRL]

I have taken pictures but I am having a horrible time trying to shrink the files to the correct size to post. I know this is not a computer forum but any advise would be great. Thanks.

[hoofnhound]

If you would like to email them to me I would be happy to volunteer my computer whiz SO to resize and post them for you.

And welcome to the area,I lived in Ann Arbor for 11 years and I just moved to a slice of heaven right in the middle of the Waterloo trails.

Alison

akabbott0@yahoo.com

[SPUDSGIRL]

OK, so I did what someone else did and made an album online. This is the link. Please let me know what you think. I really appreciate all the help and input. There is epoxy and putty on the hooves. There isn't alot of definition in the pictures it is a cloudy day in Ann Arbor. If you would like a specific shot let me know and I will try to get it. Thanks.

Picture Album[/URL] http://community.webshots.com/album/554008135ZmGsoq

[SlowShoe]

The photos are pretty blurry.. And the hooves could have used the **** s****ed off of them. =] **I can now see the '****' is infact some equithane or somthing smeared on the foot..

http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/22/23/9/73/84/2411973840096847067tWvwCa_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2411973840096847067tWvwCa)

How long in the cycle is this? And why does the horse have this agresive amount of borrium? Are you on the road mostly?

It looks as if your horse has some retained sole that needs to be delt with.. but looking a the picture again, its kinda hard to tell if there is a deep cavity between the sole and the frog or not..

http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/32/32/2/1/6/2496201060096847067TaAkzf_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2496201060096847067TaAkzf)

http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/32/32/7/95/29/2205795290096847067rAfspY_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2205795290096847067rAfspY)
These two pictures make me think we could be dealing with a fungle infection like white line that is invading and eroding the hoof wall.

Unfortunatly with the amount of gunk on the foot I cant see where the nails are nailed. So its tough to rate that.

[SPUDSGIRL]

He was reset Thursday.

Please explain retained sole and how to deal with it.

He was ridden in Pittsburgh with quite a lot of asphalt that was really slick (very hilly). He was slipping with studs. These shoes won't wear out with all the borium and he is used to the way they grab surfaces.

I have asked my farrier multiple times about white line and when she is sees his foot barefoot she doesn't think that he has it. When he is barefoot during the reset, his foot looks normal with crumbling areas where the nails are. She says he has a healthy frog.

Thanks for all the help.

[SPUDSGIRL]

One more question, if is was white line would lameness show up? Would pulses be present in his feet? (I check him for windpuffs, pulses, etc all the time doing endurance, none so far) Thanks

[SlowShoe]

I dont know if there is any truely retained sole there. I cant really tell. It first popped out to me, but after looking at it, I have some doubts. Retained sole is basically what it sounds like, the hoof isnt shedding its sole propperly, and the farrier is not removing it. But in your case, i dont think its cuaseing this problem.

The farrier should clean up the areas that are falling apart. Everything thats loose should be rasped or cut away down to solid horn. There is somethign gogin on there, and it should be removed.

Horses with extreem cases of WLD can exibit lamness and/or large cracks. I dont think you will find and pulesing or heat.

p.s. my fathers name is Spud (seriously), you aint that woman on the side are ya? :eek:

[SPUDSGIRL]

Spud is his barn name. He came with it. He is really HV Dutch Flyer. But, my husband calls him " the other man". (Little jealous..don't ya think) :D

[sublimequine]

A farrier will have to help me out with this one, but when my mare got shoes put on in front, she had a rather large crack that the farrier kind of had to dig out and smoothen. The crack wasn't serious, but the problem was it was right where nails were supposed to go. So the farrier put in some sort of glue/puddy/cement to fill in the hole he'd made, let it hardened, then just nailed into the glue/puddy/cement.

Farriers, I don't know what this stuff actually was. He said he used it for glue-on shoes as well. Any ideas?

Anyways, that could be an idea for your guy, at least until he grows it all out and perhaps starts growing in a new/better hoof. :)

[ranchoblanco]

It was probably either Equithane glue on hoof repair, Equilox, or Bond n Flex.
Mike

[Gary Pfeiffer]

I've seen this poor quality of hoof wall but, normally it is in horses that are kept in very wet boggy pastures. The wall just crumbles away and, when freshly trimmed the outer edges of the wall just fray under the pressure of the rasp.
Is this horse kept in these types of conditions. If so he should be moved to a drier environment. Some horses feet can handle the excess moisture without a problem but, others seem to get this crumbly condition.
A better quality of patching material should be employed by the farrier, such as the ones named by Ranchoblanco. The material that has been used is surely not doing the job it needs to.

Gary

[JMPalmer]

These two pictures make me think we could be dealing with a fungle infection like white line that is invading and eroding the hoof wall.
I agree with this. If it were my horse I'd have a vet check it (a good set of films wouldn't hurt either).

Your horse's hoof walls do not appear to have very good connections to the internal structures. I'll bet there's a lot of stretched white line (possibly diseased) under those shoes.

You do realize that much borium, coupled with riding on asphalt is placing enormous stress on his feet and legs?

Jan

[Kaydence]

I've seen this poor quality of hoof wall but, normally it is in horses that are kept in very wet boggy pastures. The wall just crumbles away and, when freshly trimmed the outer edges of the wall just fray under the pressure of the rasp.
Is this horse kept in these types of conditions. If so he should be moved to a drier environment. Some horses feet can handle the excess moisture without a problem but, others seem to get this crumbly condition.
A better quality of patching material should be employed by the farrier, such as the ones named by Ranchoblanco. The material that has been used is surely not doing the job it needs to.

Gary

You see it with horses kept on hogfuel as well. I hate hogfuel.

I would be including a vet in this horses team.

Cheri

[HoustonFarrier]

I've got a Shire mare at my place now, who has been here for about 6 months. When she came (from Oregon) her feet were ROCK hard. Over the months, her hoof quality has deteriorated. Her owner insisted that we feed her a mare and foal supplement(she foaled 4 months ago). I suspect the supplement *may* be the problem. Too many vitamins/minerals is just as bad as not enough....

Just food for thought.....

Steve

[SPUDSGIRL]

I really appreciate all the feedback I have gotten on Spud's hooves. Just an update... I had two farriers come out and reset him. You guys were right, he did have white line (which is uncommon in this area). It is a pretty mild case according to the new farrier. It could have been caused by the epoxy holding in bacteria/fungus etc. in the nail holes. (My fault). He was shoed with new lightweight shoes with no borium. His angles are now "52" all around. The new farrier did not think it was bad enough to drill the hole to pour medicine in so he Thrush X, formadelhyde based treatment then sealed it with Tuff Stuff. I have been maintaining the outside of his hoof with Tuff Stuff and painting on the others as often as I can. Also, he put the nails up a bit higher, just like you guys said. He is in as stall at night now so he is on sawdust about 10 hours a day and out of wet environments for a bit. Other than being more high strung than usual, he is doing well. It will take alot of vigilance to have him continue to improve but Spud's worth it. You all really helped me and I would like to thank you. :D

[fairweatherforge]

I really appreciate all the feedback I have gotten on Spud's hooves. Just an update... I had two farriers come out and reset him. You guys were right, he did have white line (which is uncommon in this area). It is a pretty mild case according to the new farrier. It could have been caused by the epoxy holding in bacteria/fungus etc. in the nail holes. (My fault). He was shoed with new lightweight shoes with no borium. His angles are now "52" all around. The new farrier did not think it was bad enough to drill the hole to pour medicine in so he Thrush X, formadelhyde based treatment then sealed it with Tuff Stuff. I have been maintaining the outside of his hoof with Tuff Stuff and painting on the others as often as I can. Also, he put the nails up a bit higher, just like you guys said. He is in as stall at night now so he is on sawdust about 10 hours a day and out of wet environments for a bit. Other than being more high strung than usual, he is doing well. It will take alot of vigilance to have him continue to improve but Spud's worth it. You all really helped me and I would like to thank you. :D

I'm having trouble understanding a couple things. Your feet are all torn up. Shoes getting shoved around so it looks like the foot is growing over the clips. Yet you had him turned out all day and night? Seriously, there is a concept known as management. Farriery is only one part of the deal. What a discovery, your horse is out all day and he had what some people would call white line disease. Has it ever come to mind that this is one of the wettest summers we've had in years. Horses have been stomping flies all summer. Its about time horse owners start taking a roll in some of this. If you want your horse turned out all day long then move to the midwest where its dry. You know what, you mise as well turn your horse back out at night cause winters on it way and miracuously the feet will magically get better. Why is this? Because the swamp they live in will freeze and there won't be any flies? All I can say is I hope your farrier charged you up the nose for her time this summer now that you new farrier will look like a hero this winter.

[SPUDSGIRL]

I am not trying to be confrontational but I think I need to set a few things straight.....Spud was turn out all summer in a 12 acre pasture with 2 other horses. They have a run in at the far end of the pasture as well as three stall access (Dutch doors to the outside and a door to the barn aisle). He had his own stall to escape from heat/bugs/moisture as much as he chose. And, he used it when he wanted. The pasture did not have bogs or hugh areas of mud. They actually had good grazing all summer. This month in MI has been very wet and it takes longer to dry up without the heat. Spud chooses to be out as much as he can. He will leave the other horses and graze by himself. There were multiple reasons to confine him at night, the change in weather being one of them (increase in neighbor's crazy german shepard getting loose another). But, he pees alot and his stall will have a wet spot by morning no matter what we do. He is now using a different stall at night that is not an end stall and is better insulated for the winter.


I truely believe in letting a horse be a horse.... He rolls in the mud, he is out with other horses. I am willing to let him get dirty or kicked because I think he will ulitemately be happier. Now that white line is confirmed I am trying to do everything I can....

Also, I did not fire my current farrier. She has only been shoeing for 2ish years. She brought the other farrier because she was upset that things were not improving. She stepped aside and let the more experienced farrier work on Spud. He changed the shoes and nailed him higher. They will tag team him for a while but I honestly think the older guy put the nails in better. I really like the newer farrier because she cares and doesn't let ego get in the way of trying to do what is best for the horse.

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Also, I did not fire my current farrier. She has only been shoeing for 2ish years. She brought the other farrier because she was upset that things were not improving. She stepped aside and let the more experienced farrier work on Spud. He changed the shoes and nailed him higher. They will tag team him for a while but I honestly think the older guy put the nails in better. I really like the newer farrier because she cares and doesn't let ego get in the way of trying to do what is best for the horse.So stick with her, I'm sure you both learnt a bit from this, and she seems to have the right attitude.

[THamilton]

One of the thigns thast caught my eye was a comment on Spudsgirl part. Something about not having a big mud hole. Well...

It only takes alittle one to keep the fungus thriving. Even if it is around the water trough. You also said that your hores pees a lot in the stall. COUld it be that there is an issue there? OR the fact that horses do not like to have urine splash on them. If you remove the shavings, I am inclined to think that he will find another place to go. Less cleanup and possibly better conditioned feet.

Tony