Help with Balancing

[mbetteridge]

I was reading some of the comments in the Hot Shoeing Thread about being left or right handed and they have made me wonder about some things.

I was looking at my husbands horse yesterday and even though I would have sworn that she was balanced when I shod her, she now looks to be higher latterly on the fronts. I went over and checked my horse and sure enough he was the same. I check and double check, but apparently I'm not seeing something at the time. Is there anything I can do to make sure i'm seeing what I need to see, when I need to see it?

[Rancho JD]

being aware is usually enough if you do something about it, like using sole as a guide, eyeballing the foot on level ground from all angles and watching the horse in motion. i never got sold on the finnegan gauge for various reasons and its stored in a drawer with the hoof gauge but some still say they are a usefull aid in obtaining medial/lateral balance.

as a right hander i push a rasp stronger and with more control to the left. when the rasp ends are reversed i pull better towards the right. since most of my rasping is done pushing, if there is a low side after i think im finished, looking to the rear of the horse its most likely going to be the left branch of any given foot. with short, obese or stiff horses it can vary

[Phil Armitage]

The way NB teaches M/L balance is to find the live sole in the qaurters (widest part of the foot) on each side. Use this as a guide to level the foot. NB recommends trimming the wall so it is aprox. 1/8" above the sole plain in the qaurters. I use this method to obtain M/L balance. After I trim I check the Hoof pasturn angle and wedge if needed. Before decideing to wedge watch the horse move to see if you have a flat or slight heel first landing. I am a firm believer in maintaining good H/P alignment, seen horses get sore real fast if the heels are lowered and not wedged back up if needed.

[Derin Foor]

I check and double check, but apparently I'm not seeing something at the time. Is there anything I can do to make sure i'm seeing what I need to see, when I need to see it?


The two things that I think skew a good view of M/L balance are:

1) holding the foot itself to sight down the foot........try letting the foot hang while you hold the cannon bone......... on surfaces like gravel, etc I hold a rasp under the point of the toe to give a solid 'background' to the view

2) not having your nose centered, in line with the central sulcus..... get up close and personal with the horse, let his leg be in a relaxed position (not pulled out to the side)

IMO, your first impression of balance is usually correct........IOW, the longer you look at it the less you believe what you are really seeing

works for me..... hope it helps

Derin

[mbetteridge]

Great suggestions, I will definatley be trying all of them.

Thanks Guys,


Michele

[J.H. shoeing]

How many days has it been since they were shod? A lot of front feet grow a bit more lateral hoof than medial.

[Jaye Perry]

How many days has it been since they were shod? A lot of front feet grow a bit more lateral hoof than medial.
Depends on the conformation of the horse and dexterity of the mechanic.:)

[calshoer]

Andy Parks has clearly shown in his anatomy discussions why balancing the foot via sighting it is NOT an accurate way. It has to do with the way the solar plane of the foot changes with the slightest change in how its hanging, due to the condyles of the joints not always being perfectly the same plane to the cannon bone. And with where your eye is relative to the limb.
Having done it both ways (for over a decade each method), I have found that trimming to the live sole plane is by far the best medial -lateral balancing of a foot to its own bone structure.
Many feet with the ground surface balanced at a right angle to the to the cannon bone are in fact out of balance internally, causing unevenly loaded/stressed distal joints. So I recommend just learn to find that live sole plane accurately ,and use it.
Patty

[tbloomer]

I use 3d x-ray vision for M/L balance, but sometimes I have to put on my reading glasses. Never been able to get it right by hanging the foot from the cannon bone. Patty and Mitch Taylor of Kentucky Horseshoeing school agree regarding the T-square method and hanging the hoof by holding the cannon bone. You're looking at a foot that is not loaded, hanging from joints that are not loaded.

Usually I get M/L balance by visually projecting an elevated plane from the sole profile in the center of the foot at the bridge. Not the same as using the live sole plane, but similar in regards to the profile of the sole. It's a lot more difficult to eyeball, but that's why they say farriery is a science practiced by an artist.

Funny thing, though, I occasionally shoe with this guy that uses a T-Square on every horse he shoes. Every time he checks my M/L balance with his little tool he says I've got it right . . . but I never sight the foot that way. Maybe I'm just lucky. :)

[tbloomer]

Depends on the conformation of the horse and dexterity of the mechanic.:)
What about camera angle and barel distortion from a cheap zoom lense? :)

[mbetteridge]

How many days has it been since they were shod? A lot of front feet grow a bit more lateral hoof than medial.



They were shod last Thursday, so a week. I noticed when we were riding over the weekend that she was paddling on the RF, and I checked it Tuesday. So I know it was the way I trimmed. LF seems a slightly high, but not as bad a RF (which has always been my akward side).

Michele

[calshoer]

Here is an interesting pic of a foot that was left obviously high on the medal side. Both front feet were this out of balance, both high on the medial side.
This particular horse is a very old, arthritic stallion.
This shoeing was done by a VERYWELLKNOWN but young journeyman, with his every-certification-in-the-world father standing right over him, according to he owner.
The problem?
Most likely the farrier couldn't get the the foot balanced medial laterally because he tried to sight it down the leg, and the old horse can't get his front feet out from under the middle of the belly.
Had he just trimmed to the sole plane he could have got it balanced better. I trimmed it by kneeling under him with his foot up on one my knee, using the sole plane as the only guide .
Owner reports horse is more comfortable now. (sorry I didnt get after pics, Ill take some '8 week' pics at the next apointment to see how it looks then )Patty

[Dave Purves]

This shoeing was done by a VERYWELLKNOWN but young journeyman, with his every-certification-in-the-world father standing right over him, according to he owner.
Patty

Patty, we can see that the foot is out of whack, this blaming certification thing is getting really old. I don't think it really matters if he's CJF and if his father has every certification under the sun. He did it wrong apparently and his certification didn't teach him that.

Get over it.

Dave

[Rick Burten]

This shoeing was done by a VERYWELLKNOWN but young journeyman, with his every-certification-in-the-world father standing right over him, according to he owner.
So apparently the father also has his various and sundry NB certifications? Evidently those certifications did not stand him in good stead either.
this blaming certification thing is getting really old. I don't think it really matters if he's CJF and if his father has every certification under the sun. He did it wrong apparently and his certification didn't teach him that.

Get over it.
Well said! I agree.

[Phil Armitage]

Patty, we can see that the foot is out of whack, this blaming certification thing is getting really old. I don't think it really matters if he's CJF and if his father has every certification under the sun. He did it wrong apparently and his certification didn't teach him that.

Get over it.

Dave

I think it matters alot. This is no different than what barefooters are being taught, in my opinion it is the same mentality. I have said it before and will say it again. Learning and practiceing to meet a set standard is not the right thing to do. Certification is not needed in this industry proper education is desperately needed. Why learn to trim and shoe to a set standard to pass a test if this is not how to shoe horses on a day to day basis? That question has already been answered by Tom Stoval. However I respectfully disagree with Mr. Stoval. If people want certification then get it from a group that pays attention to proper methods to achieve balance, maintain or gain as healthy of a hoof as possible and shoe the whole horse not just the foot.

[Dave Purves]

So I suppose that all CPA's are not really better than a regular accountant, and once one CPA breaks the law and gets caught then all CPA's are and should be suspect? PPPPPLLLLLLEEEEEAAAASSSSSEEEEE.

Some people get certified with NB, AFA, BWFA, the Guild and probably other groups or associations we don't even know about, does that make all other farriers that are certified with that group suspect if one does poor work?

In a few years I'm sure NB certification will take off and there will be many NB certified farriers. So when this same thing happens with one of them, will turn about be fair play? Cause it is bound to happen. Once that person leaves the certification site with paper in hand there is nobody around to follow that person and make sure their work stays up to snuff.

Dave

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Phil Armitage in gray

I think it matters alot. [AFA CF, CJF, certification] This is no
different than what barefooters are being taught, in my opinion it is
the same mentality. I have said it before and will say it again.
Learning and practiceing to meet a set standard is not the right thing
to do.

A silly thing said many times by many is still just a silly thing said
by many. The "set standards" of the AFA CF and CJF are to designed to
create very narrow testing parameters, thereby lessening the element of
subjectivity while increasing the possibility of objectivity. Both of
the practicals are designed to be objective quantifications of one's
motor skills as demonstrated by one's ability to meet an arbitrary
standard, NOT of a testee's ability to determine a horse's needs because
that's a completely subjective assessment. In the real world, motor
skills are applied AFTER a mechanic assesses the needs of the horse - in
this case, for testing purposes, the horse is presumed to need a
perimeter fit.

Certification is not needed in this industry proper education is desperately needed. Why learn to trim and shoe to a set standard to pass a test if this is not how to shoe horses on a day to day basis?

One cannot pass the AFA practicals without attaining the necessary motor
skills; however, motor skills are not directly related to assessing
horses' needs. Similarly, one's ability to accurately assess horses'
needs DOES NOT imply one's having the motor skills necessary to meet
those needs. The AFA's tests are designed to quantify a testee's motor
skills in as objective a manner as possible.

That question has already been answered by Tom Stoval. However I respectfully disagree with Mr. Stoval. If people want certification then get it from a group that pays attention to proper methods to achieve balance, maintain or gain as healthy of a hoof as possible and shoe the
whole horse not just the foot.

I'm unaware that ANY individual or group has a lock on defining "proper
balance" (whatever that is); the health of the hoof is largely a matter
of husbandry, not farriery; and buzzwords like "shoeing the whole horse"
make me gag. At my end of the sandpile, the object of the exercise is
simply to give the horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as
best it can, which means biomechanical efficiency is the ultimate
arbiter of stuff that works and Archimedes still calls the shots.

Given your evident disdain for the AFA's CJF test, if/when you become
eligible to take the test, why not take it and show everybody how
easy it is? Your incessant denigration of the tests makes you appear to
be making preemptive excuses for your apparent lack of confidence in
your ability to pass the tests.

[Phil Armitage]

Tom and Dave, your not makeing sense. Both of you guys have talked about and know the importance of anatomy and biomechanics. leverage and breakover. Strain on the horses joints, ligaments, tendons and muscles. Please tell me how the AFA shoeing standards teach a farrier how to trim horses to the horses conformation. How to obtain medial/lateral balance and H/P alignment to prevent excessive strain, not to interfere with the mechanics of the limbs and body and maintain a healthy hoof capsule with proper form and function? Both of you have one time or another explained how important it is to not change what the horse is. Tom I can't believe you gag when you hear the words shoe the whole horse then advise people to keep what is as it is.

Tom I understand what your saying on gaining motor skills, practice, etc.. My recommendation is to learn how to do the job right (which should come from the school you go to) then apprentice. Focus on doing it right first then speed will come. This is the way it is in any trade. If the AFA wants to take on the role of continueing education then go for it, however there is a lot of good competition out there.

Tom I take the AFA CF exam next month. I do not know if I will pass or fail. I am not afraid to fail, never have been and never will be. I will post my score pass or fail right here for anyone to see. Does not bother me either way. Actually I am not afraid of anything, if I were I certainly would not be doing one of the most risky and dangerous jobs in the world.

[mbetteridge]

Ok I got some pics tonight. Didn't get all I wanted cause she was being a biotch and wouldn't stand still.

Please keep in mind I have shod ten horses total, all together ten. Three of them have been reset once. I will take any and all critisism, thoughts, opinions and suggestions, but please don't tear me up too bad :) .

RF Bottom View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25020504823.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3349840)

RF Front View: Sorry, she was standing on a crack in the driveway, so not the best pic.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25020504815.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3349839)


Pastern View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25020504756.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3349838)

[Phil Armitage]

Mbetteride, pretty good work. Hard to see the pictures kind of small and no idea how long it has been since last shoeing. So I can't give you any other opinions that would be of value. I think the over all work looks good. How is the horse doing? We could help you more if you take pictures at the next shoeing. A bottom view after removeing the shoes and cleaning the feet. Then a shot after you trim it. Then we can tell you more.

[Rancho JD]

how long had she been wearing these shoes when the pictures were taken

[mbetteridge]

Phil,

She was shod last Thursday. She's fine, no lameness issues. But she paddles on the right. She wasn't doing that before, she was as straight as an arrow. She'll be reset in 5 more weeks, unless she has issues before then. She is my husbands trail horse ( he's a truck driver, so she's basically a pasture potato right now). I get on her once in while, but she was trained in reining and western pleasure and apparently, I was informed last weekend, I ride *** backwards (being a damned ole barrel racer and all), and I give her wrong cues and she gets ****y and I get ****y and it's just not a pretty sight. So basically no problems, I was just concerned about her balance and making sure I do things right.

I thought you could click on the pics and get a bigger one to pop up. I'll have to check into it.

Thanks,

Michele

[Phil Armitage]

One cannot pass the AFA practicals without attaining the necessary motor
skills; however, motor skills are not directly related to assessing
horses' needs. Similarly, one's ability to accurately assess horses'
needs DOES NOT imply one's having the motor skills necessary to meet
those needs. The AFA's tests are designed to quantify a testee's motor
skills in as objective a manner as possible.

Given your evident disdain for the AFA's CJF test, if/when you become
eligible to take the test, why not take it and show everybody how
easy it is? Your incessant denigration of the tests makes you appear to
be making preemptive excuses for your apparent lack of confidence in
your ability to pass the tests.

Tom these two comments tell me your missing my point entirely and you will not get my point until you witness my skills and see me pass the AFA Cert. If that is what it take then that is what it takes. So be it. Pretty strange to have to do this just to get respect and make a point.

Tom are you saying you attributeing your success in achieveing propper trimming to the horses conformation and mechanics based on what the AFA has taught you? Or did you learn from others? I quess I do not understand what your destain for NB is.

[mbetteridge]

how long had she been wearing these shoes when the pictures were taken


She's been wearing them for a week and they were taken tonight.

[Phil Armitage]

Yep I can click on the pics. Didnt know that. Okay now that I see the feet better and know when she was last shod, here is what I recommend. You need to reshoe her. The flakeing sole needs to knifed out and find the live sole, now I don't mean live live, just until it is an apple peal consistancy. Heels need to be trimmed down and balanced, bars need to be trimmed a bit. Now that is not as easy as it sounds, but I think if you were to watch someone do it once you would get it. I think it would help you a lot if you got a farrier you trust to walk you through it once and show you what he/she would do. Now don't beat yourself up, I think you have done excellent work for only 10 shoeing and your always better off to error on the side of caution and leave more foot. Can't put it back after too much is removed. Great job, you will definately make an excellent farrier.

[mbetteridge]

Yep I can click on the pics. Didnt know that. Okay now that I see the feet better and know when she was last shod, here is what I recommend. You need to reshoe her. The flakeing sole needs to knifed out and find the live sole, now I don't mean live live, just until it is an apple peal consistancy. Heels need to be trimmed down and balanced, bars need to be trimmed a bit. Now that is not as easy as it sounds, but I think if you were to watch someone do it once you would get it. I think it would help you a lot if you got a farrier you trust to walk you through it once and show you what he/she would do. Now don't beat yourself up, I think you have done excellent work for only 10 shoeing and your always better off to error on the side of caution and leave more foot. Can't put it back after too much is removed. Great job, you will definately make an excellent farrier.


I'll pull her shoes tomorrow and trim and reset. Yes, leaving to much is one of my biggest faults right now, i'm so afraid of laming them up, that I just can't bring myself to take anymore off. Now, I am better than I used to be, so I'm working on that issue :D . I'm not sure if can get anyone over tomorrow to help me or not, the one guy I trust more than anyone is not available as he has a class going right now during the week and working all day on Saturdays. I'll take more pics after I trim and after the reset.

What about the shoe fit? Is that alright or should I change something there? It seems pretty good to me, but being a beginner, I always like to ask for others opinions.

Thanks,

Michele

[Phil Armitage]

Just remove the flakey sole and trim to the sole plane. Definately want a hard protective sole. Have you read the NB trimming principles, this will help you a lot. They also have an excellent DVD and Video tape on trimming and shoe placement. Your shoe fit is great, nailing looks good and I am glad to see you left some foot on the horse. I think most sore horses are because they have no foot. I shod like that for a few years, got a lot of compliments from folks because there horses had bigger feet. :D Believe it or not hardly ever heard a complaint of lameness and rarely lost shoes. Morgan people and trail riders loved me.

[Phil Armitage]

Something I read a long time ago in Doug Butlers book. Everytime you shoe a horse, evaluate and think of what you can do the next time to make it better.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Phil Armitage in gray

Tom and Dave, your not makeing sense.

Your lack of comprehension does not imply our not "making sense."

Both of you guys have talked about and know the importance of anatomy and biomechanics. leverage and breakover. Strain on the horses joints, ligaments, tendons and muscles. Please tell me how the AFA shoeing standards teach a farrier how to trim horses to the horses conformation. How to obtain medial/lateral balance and H/P alignment to prevent excessive strain, not to interfere with the mechanics of the limbs and body and maintain a healthy hoof capsule with proper form and function?

Other than the relevant biophysics, there is NO standard that is "right" for both ends of every horse.

Both of you have one time or another explained how important it is to not change what the horse is. Tom I can't believe you gag when you hear the words shoe the whole horse then advise people to keep what is as it is.

I dunno about you, but my expertise ends at the hairline. Catch phrases like, "shoe the whole horse", are just meaningless platitudes, indicative of nothing more than trying to blow smoke. I can shoe feet and I can influence a column of bones that in turn influences the performance of the horse - but I'm just a spoke in the wheel: I'm not in charge of husbandry, I don't train horses, and I'm not the pilot.

Tom I understand what your saying on gaining motor skills, practice, etc.. My recommendation is to learn how to do the job right (which should come from the school you go to) then apprentice.

Disabuse yourself of the silly notion that anyone has ever learned how to "do the job right" in a short course shoeing school (i.e., less than six months), there's simply too much to assimiliate and not enough time to do so. Whatever the talent one has, one learns only basics in any shoeing school; one learns how to shoe horses with experience in the real world - whether through formal apprenticeship, riding with somebody, watching good farriers work, attending clinics and applying what one has learned - or even reading the stuff on this forum. We're all the sum of our parts and no shoeing school is a very big part of that whole.

Focus on doing it right first then speed will come. This is the way it is in any trade. If the AFA wants to take on the role of continueing education then go for it, however there is a lot of good competition out there.

Unless you're shoeing babies or cripples, speed is irrelevant in terms of quality. We don't get paid by the hour, we get paid by the head. If you can't to your best work on a timely basis, then plan on starting early and stay late.

Tom I take the AFA CF exam next month. I do not know if I will pass or fail. I am not afraid to fail, never have been and never will be. I will post my score pass or fail right here for anyone to see. Does not bother me either way. Actually I am not afraid of anything, if I were I certainly would not be doing one of the most risky and dangerous jobs in the world.

I'm not going to wish you luck, because if you can shoe a horse and know a little bit about what makes 'em tick, it's easy. On the other hand, if you ever make it to the CJF test, the cheese gets a little more binding. On a personal note, it kills my soul to fail any test and just the other day I failed one!

An eye test.

Because I failed it, I now have to wear my damned bifocals when I drive, a major PITA. Getting old ain't for sissies. :)

[mbetteridge]

I will look at NB website tonight. I've been pretty lucky, no complaints from anyone about horses being sore. In fact I trimmed one last week and the owners were amazed that he wasn't sore, guess he's always real ouchy for about three to four days after a trim. I'll be back on tomorrow night with more pics and we'll see how I do this time :p .

[mbetteridge]

Something I read a long time ago in Doug Butlers book. Everytime you shoe a horse, evaluate and think of what you can do the next time to make it better.


My instructor would always tell us that there is no such thing as a perfect shoe job. No matter how good you think it is, there is always room for improvement. He said as long as we always remember that and always keep learning, we will be successful.

[Phil Armitage]

I will look at NB website tonight. I've been pretty lucky, no complaints from anyone about horses being sore. In fact I trimmed one last week and the owners were amazed that he wasn't sore, guess he's always real ouchy for about three to four days after a trim. I'll be back on tomorrow night with more pics and we'll see how I do this time :p .

No matter what you learn, don't forget what your experience teaches you. Common sense, horses need strong protective hoof, especially if there going to run on rocks.

[Jaye Perry]

Phil Armitage-....... Have you read the NB trimming principles, this will ..... Your shoe fit is great,
Guess I'll be an a-ss-hole again.
The shoe is to short. Heel soreness will cause the horse to 'Wing". Phil i know your being nice and politically correct again but damn, the horse is short shod.
You could have said " By the solar pic of the shod hoof, the shoe is not covering the heels properly. This maybe contributing to the issues of winging and soreness. Some horses will start to wing inexplicablly because they are wanting to load the heels but they are sore. You may want to look into principals that will give you ideas of different trimming, shoe placement and foot dynamics". That suits your demeanor Phil but gets the point across delightfully.

I could have said the same but it's not my demeanor.:)







[QUOTE]...... I think most sore horses are because they have no foot.....not hardly ever heard a complaint of lameness and rarely lost shoes. Morgan people and trail riders loved me[QUOTE]

This horse is sore because the shoe is to short. Most Appys are good footed with few issues. Losing a shoe on the solar pictured shod foot would be a feat.:cool:

[calshoer]

Patty, we can see that the foot is out of whack, this blaming certification thing is getting really old. I don't think it really matters if he's CJF and if his father has every certification under the sun. He did it wrong apparently and his certification didn't teach him that.

Get over it.

Dave
Theres nothing to get over,because it really had nothing to do with certification .Sorry if it came across that way
My point was that even TOP level farriers can screw it up, when they rely on just trying to sight the leg and don't use another guideline instead.
THAT was the whole point. It had to do with balancing the foot ,and using the sole plane.
Geesh.

[calshoer]

So apparently the father also has his various and sundry NB certifications? Evidently those certifications did not stand him in good stead either.No, the farrier(s) who did this job are vocally against NB. Patty

[mbetteridge]

Guess I'll be an a-ss-hole again.
The shoe is to short. Heel soreness will cause the horse to 'Wing". Phil i know your being nice and politically correct again but damn, the horse is short shod.
You could have said " By the solar pic of the shod hoof, the shoe is not covering the heels properly. This maybe contributing to the issues of winging and soreness. Some horses will start to wing inexplicablly because they are wanting to load the heels but they are sore. You may want to look into principals that will give you ideas of different trimming, shoe placement and foot dynamics". That suits your demeanor Phil but gets the point across delightfully.

I could have said the same but it's not my demeanor.:)







[QUOTE]...... I think most sore horses are because they have no foot.....not hardly ever heard a complaint of lameness and rarely lost shoes. Morgan people and trail riders loved me[QUOTE]

This horse is sore because the shoe is to short. Most Appys are good footed with few issues. Losing a shoe on the solar pictured shod foot would be a feat.:cool:


Jaye,

I'll remember that when I reset her tomorrow and i'll be sure to make sure I get the heels covered properly.

By the way, she's not an appy, she's a paint :D .

Thanks for your observations and suggestions,

Michele

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Phil Armitage

Tom these two comments tell me your missing my point entirely and you will not get my point until you witness my skills and see me pass the AFA Cert.

I'd be hard pressed to care any less whether or not you can pass any test, I'm simply tired of your baseless denigration of tests you haven't demonstrated the ability to pass. Pass the tests first, then tell folks how easy they are - it shouldn't be no step for a stepper.

If that is what it take then that is what it takes. So be it. Pretty strange to have to do this just to get respect and make a point.

The point is that one does not imply a test is meaningless unless one has demonstrated the ability to pass that test; otherwise folks get to thinking about Aesop's fox.

Tom are you saying you attributeing your success in achieveing propper trimming to the horses conformation and mechanics based on what the AFA has taught you?

I don't claim any particular "success." I know a little bit about physics and anatomy, I've won a few races, fixed a few cripples, and somehow managed to stay out of the poorhouse - and I've never been a member of the AFA.

Or did you learn from others?

I've shamelessly ripped off techniques from every farrier and plater I've ever watched work - and I've had the privilege of watching a bunch of 'em.

I quess I do not understand what your destain for NB is.

My quarrel with NB has to do with its basis on the intrinsically flawed model of a feral foot in an abrasive environment and the knowledge that all horses have two ends with different primary functions which must be treated differently to attain maximum biomechanical efficiency. All feet won't fit in the same box and both ends damn sure won't.

Please get yourself a physics book and study the chapters on levers. After you do so, you may discover that you don't have to jump on anybody's bandwagon when you've got Archimedes on your side.

[Phil Armitage]

Your lack of comprehension does not imply our not "making sense."

It is still to be determined who lacks comprehension, understanding or mis communication. However I am convinced we do not see eye to eye on this subject, however there seems to also be some agreement on things and that baffles me.


I dunno about you, but my expertise ends at the hairline. Catch phrases like, "shoe the whole horse", are just meaningless platitudes, indicative of nothing more than trying to blow smoke. I can shoe feet and I can influence a column of bones that in turn influences the performance of the horse - but I'm just a spoke in the wheel: I'm not in charge of husbandry, I don't train horses, and I'm not the pilot.

That is Bull, you definately look above the hairline and you know it. Two examples, one your theory on lever arm. Another your advice to Bruce that it is not wise to change things to prevent intereference because of the strain it will place on the rest of the limb.

Disabuse yourself of the silly notion that anyone has ever learned how to "do the job right" in a short course shoeing school (i.e., less than six months), there's simply too much to assimiliate and not enough time to do so. Whatever the talent one has, one learns only basics in any shoeing school; one learns how to shoe horses with experience in the real world - whether through formal apprenticeship, riding with somebody, watching good farriers work, attending clinics and applying what one has learned - or even reading the stuff on this forum. We're all the sum of our parts and no shoeing school is a very big part of that whole.

I agree, you should know that already based on past posts where I have stated the exact same things.



Unless you're shoeing babies or cripples, speed is irrelevant in terms of quality. We don't get paid by the hour, we get paid by the head. If you can't to your best work on a timely basis, then plan on starting early and stay late.

Absolutely, I just told a customer of mine yesterday I do not pay attention to the clock I pay attention to doing it right. She was kidding with me about how slow I am. My wife can attest to the late nights.



I'm not going to wish you luck, because if you can shoe a horse and know a little bit about what makes 'em tick, it's easy. On the other hand, if you ever make it to the CJF test, the cheese gets a little more binding. On a personal note, it kills my soul to fail any test and just the other day I failed one!

An eye test.

Because I failed it, I now have to wear my damned bifocals when I drive, a major PITA. Getting old ain't for sissies. :)

Pass or fail does not mean anything to me, learning and understanding is what is important. I have passed test that I did not really understand the material being taught and I have failed tests I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the subject. I do this stuff for the education, we learn pass or fail just by getting involved and doing.

Hey bifocals is part of being a grandpa. Grand kids, need there grandparents to look the part. :)

[Phil Armitage]

My quarrel with NB has to do with its basis on the intrinsically flawed model of a feral foot in an abrasive environment and the knowledge that all horses have two ends with different primary functions which must be treated differently to attain maximum biomechanical efficiency. All feet won't fit in the same box and both ends damn sure won't.

Please get yourself a physics book and study the chapters on levers. After you do so, you may discover that you don't have to jump on anybody's bandwagon when you've got Archimedes on your side.

What is wrong with studying something man does not interfere with. Sounds like a good model to me. NB is a tool to aid the farrier in achieveing balance. It makes me ill to hear farriers say what is balance? Balance medial/lateral and hoof pastern angel. Alignment of the bones. The live sole plaine after you learn how to find it is a reliable way to find it and has been backed up by great efforts of trimming and x-raying before and after. It is a great tool.

Archimedes would not tolerate poor breeding for a second and I doubt he cared about levers, cared more about a hard strong hoof. Hard strong hoofs don't distort too easy and horses not kept standing in there **** everyday in stalls and small paddock have better feet. The biggest impact on horses feet is the enviroment and Archimedes knew this and so do we. That is a no brainer.

[Rancho JD]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/slingerdun/rf-1.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/slingerdun/lf.jpg

1st photo: flare can be dressed away if from the bottom you see that its not to close to the white line and interfere with nailing tolerance, also the entire shoe can be moved to the right.

2nd photo: same thing with the flare here if it doesnt compromise the wall integrity to much it can be reduced, this foot also shows compression, concave distortion at the hairline on the left side and a bit offset, effects of unequal weight bearing from conformation and or hoof balance. i hope these lines make sense

[mbetteridge]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/slingerdun/rf-1.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/slingerdun/lf.jpg

1st photo: flare can be dressed away if from the bottom you see that its not to close to the white line and interfere with nailing tolerance, also the entire shoe can be moved to the right.

2nd photo: same thing with the flare here if it doesnt compromise the wall integrity to much it can be reduced, this foot also shows compression, concave distortion at the hairline on the left side and a bit offset, effects of unequal weight bearing from conformation and or hoof balance. i hope these lines make sense


The right foot (2nd photo) is the one that I have been seeing problems with. I can see from the lines what you are saying. I think I will be spending a lot of extra time on her tomorrow to make sure everything is correct.

Thanks,

Michele

[Phil Armitage]

Guess I'll be an a-ss-hole again.
The shoe is to short. Heel soreness will cause the horse to 'Wing". Phil i know your being nice and politically correct again but damn, the horse is short shod.
You could have said " By the solar pic of the shod hoof, the shoe is not covering the heels properly. This maybe contributing to the issues of winging and soreness. Some horses will start to wing inexplicablly because they are wanting to load the heels but they are sore. You may want to look into principals that will give you ideas of different trimming, shoe placement and foot dynamics". That suits your demeanor Phil but gets the point across delightfully.

I could have said the same but it's not my demeanor.:)

The feet need to trimmed properly, heels are long and cause the same thing you described because of sorness even if the shoes were fit correctly. I recommend tossing those shoes and pull out a new pair after the feet are trimmed. I don't care if she parimeter fits or sets the shoe back just to the white line whatever floats your boat. Re-trim the feet to sole plain, trim the heels lower and level with the sole plain. Dress the dishing and flares at the lower end of the foot. Crab new shoes that fit the trimmed foot so they extend just past the heels. Shape them to the trimmed foot and use the grinder if you have to get the heel fit properly so there is not too much steel hanging back there.

I have nothing bad to say, this farrier is trying to learn and is asking for opinions. What more can you ask for as far a great attitude. This kind of attitude will raise the bar in the trade.

[Jaye Perry]

mbetteridge-Jaye,

......By the way, she's not an appy, she's a paint :D .

michele

That leprachaun is sneaking up me again, after 2 drams paints, appys and zebras start looking all alike:D

[Jaye Perry]

......What more can you ask for as far a great attitude. This kind of attitude will raise the bar in the trade.
You said something about a bar?

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Phil, I have to get in on this because you are driving me crazy. You keep referring to the AFA standard of shoeing. What exactly is that? As far as I can tell, the only standard they have set is for the test. I have never seen anywhere that the AFA says anyone has to shoe with that standard in mind or to that standard in there every day work. As a member, I have never recieved anything that has told me how to shoe. I have recieved the study guide that tells me how I will have to shoe the horse the day of the test, but it does not say I have to shoe all the horses I work on before that to that standard to pass. So where is this grand edict from the AFA telling me how I have to shoe a horse? You seem to be hung up on the idea that the AFA says we all have to shoe thier way. If you don't you can't pass the test. Well, if you go take the test and pass you will prove that wrong your self, and by the way, good luck.

Here are the words from Chris Gregory's book (pg. 43 under Adapting To A Need) you talk so much about on AFA testing "A competent craftsman will be able to adjust to the individule needs of the horse or to a prescribed fit such as the one called for by the AFA's standards for judging certification."

"A lot of people argue that the AFA fit is not beneficial to the horse. This is a moot point. The certification test is not designed to correct deficiencies that the horse being shod at the test might have. It is designed to find out if the candidates are able to fit a horse with precision called for by AFA standards."

Now if you don't see what he's saying, let me try to explain. The standard is only set for the test, not your everyday work. Please get that part straight. It's to see that if the skills you use every day have been honed enough to do the work what ever way you are asked. For the test, you will be asked to shoe a horse in a specific way (even if you don't agree) but that is what you have to do to pass the test. It has been explained as being like filling a specific prescription from a vet. You shoe to that prescription, to that standard, on that horse, on that day, and only then. You don't have to shoe like that the rest of your life after the test and you don't have to shoe like that before to pass the test. You just have to do it that day.

The skills you use every day, the pride, the workmanship you strive for should be experience enough, no matter what method you use, to go and pass the test. Answer these questions:

1. Do you trim and balance every foot you work on?
2. Do you fit the shoes you apply properly (or to a vet prescription)?
3. Do you drive you nails properly, to the right height, with the proper entry, and with the proper finish of all clinches? Are the clinches in line, the same size, bent and pushed in not pulled, and lined up neatly?
4. Do you finish the feet so that they look neat and clean and show you have pride in what you do?

If you answer yes to these, you have the basic skills and drive to go take the test and pass, with some attention to detail of course. No matter what method you shoe to, if you take pride in your work and work to improve your skills at the foot every day you should have the skill to pass the practical, and you don't have to practice perimiter fit only to do so. It's a test of your skills (trimming, fitting, nailing, finishing, etc.), and how well you can apply them to the AFA standard for the test on that day and that day only.

The AFA doesn't have a standard, it has tests, and there are standards to meet to pass those tests, but by no means does that imply or is decreed that all horses must be shod in the AFA manner. Get over that please.

Sorry Phil, I just had to respond, you seem to be beating a dead horse with a wet noodle over the standard. Again I wish you good luck on the test, mostly because if you pass the practicle, you will prove all you have been saying about having to shoe the AFA way to pass is wrong. The we will all know that no matter how we shoe, what mantra we follow, we all have a chance to become AFA certified because Phil led us to the promised land.

OK, fire back.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Phil Armitage in gray

What is wrong with studying something man does not interfere with.

There's nothing wrong with studying anything in which one has an interest; on the other hand, there's quite a bit wrong with using the foot of a feral horse from an arid, abrasive, environment as a model for domestic horses in varied environments because such horses do not carry weight, lean into a harness, or engage in any sort of forced exercise: their feet are merely a reflection of their DNA's mandated response to their environment.

Sounds like a good model to me.

Good for what? Optimum biomechanical efficiency? When was the last time you saw a feral horse win a race? A cutting? A reining? A puissance?

NB is a tool to aid the farrier in achieveing balance. It makes me ill to hear farriers say what is balance?

The state of your health aside, which balance do you want? Static? Dynamic? Some other kind?

Balance medial/lateral and hoof pastern angel. Alignment of the bones.

Is a foot in static balance necessarily in dynamic balance? If not, which do you feel is most important in terms of biomechanical efficiency?

The live sole plaine after you learn how to find it is a reliable way to find it and has been backed up by great efforts of trimming and x-raying before and after. It is a great tool.

"Backed up?" Perhaps in your mind, but in the real world, anecdotes and testimonials of the faithful are a rather poor substitute for the scientific method.

Archimedes would not tolerate poor breeding for a second and I doubt he cared about levers, cared more about a hard strong hoof.

You're kidding, right? A "hard, strong, hoof" is not necessarily a Good Thing unless it partially encases a phalangeal lever of optimum length and angulation because the lever, not the hoof capsule, has the greatest influence on biomechanical efficiency. Additionally, since the primary function of the levers differs between fronts and hinds, it follows that the most efficient length and angulation of the lever at one end might not be the most efficient length and angulation of the lever on the other end.

Hard strong hoofs don't distort too easy and horses not kept standing in there **** everyday in stalls and small paddock have better feet.

"Better" for what? The best possible feet a horse can have are those that best serve its needs - and the needs of domestic horses in use based on use, not models.

The biggest impact on horses feet is the enviroment and Archimedes knew this and so do we. That is a no brainer.

While the bare feet of horses at liberty are a reflection of their DNA's response to their environment, the feet of shod/trimmed horses in use are a reflection of DNA, use, and husbandry. Farriers have no control over DNA, the horse's connections determine use, which facts suggest the most important factor in any domestic horse's life is husbandry. Ideal husbandry can be defined as those factors that comprise an environment created by humans which attempts to meet the needs of horses on a proactive basis instead of allowing those needs to be met reactively, by chance, if at all.

As farriers, we're merely a cog in a horse's husbandry, but we're a damned big cog because we have a direct impact on the horse's biomechanical efficiency through our manipulation of the levers responsible for transforming muscle energy into motion. As far as I know, Archimedes didn't know which end to halter and which end to pick up after - but he knew a little something about levers, which fact suggests his stuff might just be worth looking into. :)

[Phil Armitage]

Mornin Tom & Ben :)

That is a lot to respond to, got my laptop on the kitchen table, heating up a skillit and makeing breakfast. Coffee, Eggs, toast and corned beef hash.

I read what you said and reread it already this morning and you both make excellent points. This is a great discussion especially for new farriers like the OP (Original Poster).

I want to point out I do not consider the AFA's standards horrible, evil etc.. as some assume I do. My motive is to focus on trimming and balanceing. This is where I see the most trouble. This is where I got into the most trouble. The problem with the AFA is, it is primarily structured to get a farrier practiceing more in the forge than properly trimming. Horses are better off trimmed properly in keg shoes than shod in a perfect hand made shoe poorly trimmed. Patty's example photo points that out. This is not an attack on the AFA. Maybe things just need to be added, changed or improved whatever. I would not eliminate forgeing skills, because practiceing to meet the AFA standard of shoeing is a great education and skills to aquire. Got to tend to breakfast, put my horses out, do some work aroung the house before I get in trouble. I will take the time to respond to Tom and Ben's post, because there is some perceptions there that need to be addressed.

Thanks

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, I have to get in on this because you are driving me crazy.

According to my parents I have had that affect on people since I was able to make a sound. My mother use to say, God gave you the gift to gab, don't abuse it. :D

You keep referring to the AFA standard of shoeing. What exactly is that?

They do have a standard and it is not only for takeing a test. It is available to horse owners on there Web site.

http://www.americanfarriers.org/horse_owners/evaluating_horseshoeing.php

Foot preperation and that word "BALANCE". Notice sighting and what appears to suggest "T" Sqaure. http://www.americanfarriers.org/horse_owners/evaluating_horseshoeing/foot_preparation.php


As far as I can tell, the only standard they have set is for the test. I have never seen anywhere that the AFA says anyone has to shoe with that standard in mind or to that standard in there every day work.


Well now you have. The AFA is takeing the same approach as Barefooter, NB and everyone else in this industry. Educate the owners to get your point across. If this is there education for the horse owner then it definately goes beyond just a standard to take a test.


As a member, I have never recieved anything that has told me how to shoe. I have recieved the study guide that tells me how I will have to shoe the horse the day of the test, but it does not say I have to shoe all the horses I work on before that to that standard to pass. So where is this grand edict from the AFA telling me how I have to shoe a horse? You seem to be hung up on the idea that the AFA says we all have to shoe thier way. If you don't you can't pass the test. Well, if you go take the test and pass you will prove that wrong your self, and by the way, good luck.


I have a pretty good understanding of how people learn. If you practice anything long enough it will become a habit. This is how we develop good and bad habits. If I practice doing Glue ons (which I absolutely hate doing) I will become pretty good at it. If I practice in the forge I will become good at it. If I practice proper trimming I will become good at it. Since I prefer nailing on steel shoes and want to get as efficient as possible and save my elbows and back, I will continue to practice in the forge. I did not need the AFA to realise this. This was taught to me at school and other farriers. I joined the AFA to continue my education and on that principle I will stay. Best advice I got about the AFA is to focus on education and ignore the politics. Thanks for wishing me good luck, I need it.

Here are the words from Chris Gregory's book (pg. 43 under Adapting To A Need) you talk so much about on AFA testing "A competent craftsman will be able to adjust to the individule needs of the horse or to a prescribed fit such as the one called for by the AFA's standards for judging certification."

That is a good defense for the standard. I agree a competent craftsman will have the ability to adjust to just about any shape. Regardless of what Tom says, what we do to the horses foot affects the rest of the horse. Any discomfort in a horses foot will set off a reaction. That reaction could be an adverse respons to pain. For example if you sprain your ankle it will respond to that pain in a way that will make you compensate. No matter how much people yell at you to walk normal or you will be stuck that way, you won't have any control over it. It is the Body reacting to pain to protect what hurts now. This chain of events can lead to hip, shoulder, back, muscle and joint problems. Don't believe me, go ask a sports medicine doctor. If left unattended long enough the secondary damage can become perminant.

"A lot of people argue that the AFA fit is not beneficial to the horse. This is a moot point. The certification test is not designed to correct deficiencies that the horse being shod at the test might have. It is designed to find out if the candidates are able to fit a horse with precision called for by AFA standards."

I have no problem with testing ones ability to do the basics. Learning the basics is difficult and important. If a lot of people are argueing about the AFA fit then maybe the AFA needs to listen.

Now if you don't see what he's saying, let me try to explain. The standard is only set for the test, not your everyday work. Please get that part straight. It's to see that if the skills you use every day have been honed enough to do the work what ever way you are asked. For the test, you will be asked to shoe a horse in a specific way (even if you don't agree) but that is what you have to do to pass the test. It has been explained as being like filling a specific prescription from a vet. You shoe to that prescription, to that standard, on that horse, on that day, and only then. You don't have to shoe like that the rest of your life after the test and you don't have to shoe like that before to pass the test. You just have to do it that day.

The skills you use every day, the pride, the workmanship you strive for should be experience enough, no matter what method you use, to go and pass the test. Answer these questions:

1. Do you trim and balance every foot you work on?
2. Do you fit the shoes you apply properly (or to a vet prescription)?
3. Do you drive you nails properly, to the right height, with the proper entry, and with the proper finish of all clinches? Are the clinches in line, the same size, bent and pushed in not pulled, and lined up neatly?
4. Do you finish the feet so that they look neat and clean and show you have pride in what you do?

If you answer yes to these, you have the basic skills and drive to go take the test and pass, with some attention to detail of course. No matter what method you shoe to, if you take pride in your work and work to improve your skills at the foot every day you should have the skill to pass the practical, and you don't have to practice perimiter fit only to do so. It's a test of your skills (trimming, fitting, nailing, finishing, etc.), and how well you can apply them to the AFA standard for the test on that day and that day only.

The AFA doesn't have a standard, it has tests, and there are standards to meet to pass those tests, but by no means does that imply or is decreed that all horses must be shod in the AFA manner. Get over that please.

Sorry Phil, I just had to respond, you seem to be beating a dead horse with a wet noodle over the standard. Again I wish you good luck on the test, mostly because if you pass the practicle, you will prove all you have been saying about having to shoe the AFA way to pass is wrong. The we will all know that no matter how we shoe, what mantra we follow, we all have a chance to become AFA certified because Phil led us to the promised land.

OK, fire back.

Well after you look at what the AFA provides to horse owners to evaluate horse shoeing then lets talk.

Oh what is proper nail alignment, didnt someone here point out if you have the nails all at the same level it weakens the hoof? Kind of like scoreing glass. I like it when they are not level, I use old nail holes, sometime only 4 nails (two on each side) and it works pretty good for me.

[smitty88]

Phil
what ihave you on your shoe board
have you made any hand-mades for the board

if you have give us a look

best of luck in your test

[Phil Armitage]

Phil
what ihave you on your shoe board
have you made any hand-mades for the board

if you have give us a look

best of luck in your test

Thanks Smitty, I am not ready to do my shoe board. I talked to the examiner and all I am going to do this year is take the test. I will share it on this forum. One thing I would like to do is show farriers there is no shame in failure or to recieve feedback. This is how we improve. Continous improvement. It takes a lot of guts to ask questions and show your work on this forum. If we keep on just shareing picture perfect work and good feet what value is that? I would rather get feedback on what to do differently than a pat on the back for good looking work. I know when I do great work, don't need anyone to tell me that. I and others need people to speak up when we are stuck.

[Phil Armitage]

This is for the newbies.

I whole heartly agree with everyone in takeing pride in your work and doing a nice looking job. Keep in mind, what the customer sees is important, it reflects who you are. But it is also important to take pride in what the customer rarely looks at and that is the bottom of the foot. Probably the most important part of job. Think of it as building a house or deck. If you do a nice job on the house and deck but fail to build the foundation and supportive structures what good is it? If you paint your deck and weather proof it only where everyone sees it, but do not get under the deck and inspect the structural area and weather proof it then it will soon become weak. We can make anything look pretty on the surface, but don't forget the most important part the foundation.

[smitty88]

Thanks Smitty, I am not ready to do my shoe board. I talked to the examiner and all I am going to do this year is take the test. I will share it on this forum. One thing I would like to do is show farriers there is no shame in failure or to recieve feedback. This is how we improve. Continous improvement. It takes a lot of guts to ask questions and show your work on this forum. If we keep on just shareing picture perfect work and good feet what value is that? I would rather get feedback on what to do differently than a pat on the back for good looking work. I know when I do great work, don't need anyone to tell me that. I and others need people to speak up when we are stuck.


dont know what you mean about no shame in failure
sounds like your throwing the towel in before you start

define great work
i can only speak for myself any pics i have sent in

is just every day shoeing
nothing flash

you mention you would like to know how to do differently
for example

[Phil Armitage]

dont know what you mean about no shame in failure
sounds like your throwing the towel in before you start

define great work
i can only speak for myself any pics i have sent in

is just every day shoeing
nothing flash

you mention you would like to know how to do differently
for example

My point is when farriers attend clinics and it is a hands on clinic, very few will participate. I jump in wether I can do it or not, I sit in the front of the class and I ask questions. I figure I am there to learn, spent good money and looseing money by not working. So I am there to get all I can out of it and it is better to learn by doing and makeing mistakes while the expert and others are there to help you. I am not throwing the towel in :D I am not afraid to fail, make mistakes, ask questions and explain how see things. Does that make better sense. Your shoeing is excellent and I bet your trimming, hoof prep is also great. Your an example of what one needs to set as a goal. Thank you for shareing your work, ideas and assistance. My camera broke the other day as I was takeing before and after pics of my hot shoeing work. I just bought a new camera on E-Bay, should get it in a few days. I can post the pics that came out, the camera still turns on, but the lens is stuck open and it won't take pictures. I was eager to get the pics posted the other day.

[BS-Horseshoeing]

OK Phil, those are some answers and observations. I have read the guide lines from the AFA web site for the owners to help them evaluate a shoeing job. There are some very basic and good things it shows them to look at. But nowhere does it say this is the only way for a horse to be done or that all AFA farriers should work this way. It just a guide line for the owners to use to see if things look OK. It states several times that many things are subjective and that they may very due to cir***stances. The trim and hoof prep explanation may not be perfect for all horses but it gives the owner a good idea of what to look at. After that it is up to them to learn more and discuss things with the farrier to make sure things are right. It never states what type of shoe to use or how to us it. It does mention how to fit them and what size and stock measurements are better than others. All good basic info. Still, its up to the owner to get more educated to truely judge the shoeing as correct or not. The guide lines are just a starting point. It still doesn't say anything about that being the only or right way, it's just a guide line to how many things can look on a good hoof. Owners have to understand that not many feet are perfect and adjustments need to be made to compensate for deficiencies and that will cause things to look a little different. The guide lines give them a base to work from so when they see those adjustments they can ask why they were done and for what reason.

As for the nailing, I agree with you about the straight line and shearing forces, but the question is, can you do that for the test. I didn't mean for that to be an every day part of your work. The test is just to see if you can that day. Can you? The explanation for clinches is very good.

As for not being afraid of failing, I to see that as a way to set it up so you can. I hate to fail, and when I do I am p o'd and upset for a long time. Yes you can use it as a learning experience and should, but no one should ever accept failure, you should abhore it and work to make sure it never happens or happens as little as possible. It seems as though you are setting it up so if you fail you can push the test off as a bad thing and continue to bash it. Please don't do that, give it your best and do well, don't go in thinking failure is ok, if you do you are doing yourself a disservice and shouldn't even go. Failure is not acceptable (it happens) success is the only thing you should strive for.

Ben

[Rancho JD]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/slingerdun/rf-1.jpg

forgot to add this little nugget: im going to guess that you had the shoe shaped best you could and it looked satisfactory when you layed it on the hoof, then the first nail driven on this right front was a medial quarter nail. the shoe shifted lateral and you continued nailing?

theres a simple AFJ checklist article march/april 1999 about how to remedy this common shoe shifting annoyance. i have it right here but the; no part of this publication may be reproduced by any means whatsoever without written permission of the publisher thingy has me thinking perhaps i should not.

[mbetteridge]

I pulled the shoes today, trimmed her and put a new set of shoes on. I have pics of the feet after they were trimmed and I will try to post them tomorrow. I still have to crop, resize and upload them. No pics of them shod because it was getting dark, I will try to take some tomorrow.

I will say though that her heels are covered, she's landing slightly heel first, and she is not paddling out anymore :D .

I'm still not real thrilled with how the shoes look, but I believe the feet are a lot more balanced than what they were.


Michele

[Phil Armitage]

I pulled the shoes today, trimmed her and put a new set of shoes on. I have pics of the feet after they were trimmed and I will try to post them tomorrow. I still have to crop, resize and upload them. No pics of them shod because it was getting dark, I will try to take some tomorrow.

I will say though that her heels are covered, she's landing slightly heel first, and she is not paddling out anymore :D .

I'm still not real thrilled with how the shoes look, but I believe the feet are a lot more balanced than what they were.


Michele

Good job Michele, sign of a good farrier.

[Phil Armitage]

You said something about a bar?

Know any good ones?

[mbetteridge]

Ok, got some pics. Some of them didn't turn out very well. When I uploaded them they turned out short and squaty :confused: . I'll post what I can.

The first ones will be of the trim:

RF Solar View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25216565698.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3363738)

RF Front View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25216565574.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3363736)

RF Rear View: This one still gets me, it looks lopsided

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25216565516.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3363737)

[mbetteridge]

Now for the left

LF Solar View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25216565559.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3363735)

LF Front View

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/2521656549.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3363733)

I don't have a rear view, don't know what I did with it, thought I uploaded it, but the one marked LF is the same one as the RF

[mbetteridge]

And with shoes, I only took pics of solar and front views.

RF Solar View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25218271366.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3364552)

RF Front View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25218271334.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3364551)

[Jaye Perry]

[QUOTE=mbetteridge]Ok, got some pics. Some of them didn't turn out very well. When I uploaded them they turned out short and squaty :confused: . I'll post what I can.

The first ones will be of the trim:

RF Solar View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25216565698.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3363738)


Hey Mic,

Glad you re-did the pony. Your winging problem shows extra-ordinarlily wel in the shot prosed.

"Short shod heels will exhibit those types of bars and medio/lateral imbalances will do the same. Keep learning!!

[mbetteridge]

LF Solar View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25218271466.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3364554)

LF Front View:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25218271497.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3364553)


Leg Shot:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25218271462.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3364555)

[Phil Armitage]

Looks better Michele. The next time you do this horse, after you remove the shoes take some pics before and after your trim. This way we can point out if the M/L balance is getting away from you or not. Your doing good, evaluate your own work and ask yourself what can you do better the next shoeing. That is how you get better and better.

[mbetteridge]

Thanks Phil,

If I still have her, I will do that. She's a biotch and I put my foot down tonight that she is to be sold. I've been through a hell of a penicillen regiment with my other horse because she beat him up so bad and tonight she cornered him in the barn and proceeded to pummel him. Thankfully my son was out there and got the other horse out of there.

If I still have her, I will post pics. If not, the next time I do the other horse, I'll get pics of him.


Thanks,

Michele

[tbloomer]

Oh what is proper nail alignment, didnt someone here point out if you have the nails all at the same level it weakens the hoof?

All nails weaken the hoof. However, you would be very hard pressed to cause a horizontal crack in a hoof along a straight nail line. It would take a whole lot of nails very close together. Vertical cracks are more likely - like splitting a piece of wood along the grain vs. across the grain. I can't believe that I'm explaining this common sense stuff - but then maybe it ain't so common.

[Phil Armitage]

All nails weaken the hoof. However, you would be very hard pressed to cause a horizontal crack in a hoof along a straight nail line. It would take a whole lot of nails very close together. Vertical cracks are more likely - like splitting a piece of wood along the grain vs. across the grain. I can't believe that I'm explaining this common sense stuff - but then maybe it ain't so common.

I think many would disagree with you on that. When nails are placed on the same plain and you undercut the nail to clean it up for clinching you have basicly scored and weakend that area of the hoof capsule. This is evident when it becomes weak enough that the area of nailing breaks off in one piece. It is not a common problem, however it does create a weak area. Keep in mind your nailing is very close together, from the toe nail to the third nail hole is a tight group. Therefore if the nail exits the hoof at staggered hiegth it is less likely to score and weaken the hoof in the area of nailing.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Phil Armitage in gray

Re: The desirability of nails in a row, as opposed to a shotgun pattern

I think many would disagree with you on that.

Where are these legions? Have they chosen you as spokesman? Can you say, argumentum ad verecundiam? :)

When nails are placed on the same plain and you undercut the nail to clean it up for clinching you have basicly scored and weakend that area of the hoof capsule.

Wrong! When compared to the damage to the stratum medium inherent to the passage of the nail through the wall, the removal of displaced horn beneath the exiting nail is miniscule in comparison.

This is evident when it becomes weak enough that the area of nailing breaks off in one piece.

Losing a bunch of wall along a more-or-less straight fracture line is indicative of several factors: most commonly, poor husbandry (especially wet environments) and a honeycombed wall due to frequent shoeing; less commonly, pilot error (ask any long footed farrier to explain this phenomenon) and poor clinching (clinches too strong). A correctly made clinch is formed in the wall and is purposely weakened to the point that it will straighten out before it takes wall if/when the shoe is removed traumatically.

It is not a common problem, however it does create a weak area.

Ad absurdum: According to your reasoning, a high nail is weaker than a low nail because high nails weaken more hoof than low nails by virtue of their passage; but, in reality, high nails attach the shoe to the hoof capsule more securely than low nails because more of the nail's surface area is in contact with the wall.

Keep in mind your nailing is very close together, from the toe nail to the third nail hole is a tight group. Therefore if the nail exits the hoof at staggered hiegth it is less likely to score and weaken the hoof in the area of nailing.

Balderdash! If you ever get 'round to checking out a physics book from your local library, you might also consider getting one that covers the elementary principles of logic. :)

[Gary Hill]

If you are not nailing into the outer edge of the whiteline, and you are nailing into the hoofwall ,then you will run the chance of splitting the wall and haveing the shoes breakoff wall. The only times you want to hop-scotch your nailing is when you want to get above an area of wall that came off because of any reason. Improperly dressed hoofs that I come behind sometimes all have the low and weak nailing pattern because the nails are not entering the outer edge of the whiteline. JMO, Gary

[tbloomer]

If you are not nailing into the outer edge of the whiteline, and you are nailing into the hoofwall ,then you will run the chance of splitting the wall and haveing the shoes breakoff wall. The only times you want to hop-scotch your nailing is when you want to get above an area of wall that came off because of any reason. Improperly dressed hoofs that I come behind sometimes all have the low and weak nailing pattern because the nails are not entering the outer edge of the whiteline. JMO, Gary
Dang, all this time I've been nailing from the inner edge of the white line . . .

"Son, you paid for that nail you may as well use all of it." - Donald Jones, NC Tool Company. :)

[Phil Armitage]

My point was not to recommend low nailing, I hate low nailing. Higher nails are better than a low nail and I agree the clinch should not be too strong. I prefer a shoe come off without takeing hoof with it. The lower the nail the thicker and stronger the clinch and weaker the hoof wall. Nailing into the inside of the white line vs. starting into hoof wall is also a good thing. I agree with all this and have no argument with it, this is how I nail and clinch. I can see how haveing your nails straight across can weaken the foot. I have heard a few veteran farriers (no names) point out how placeing your nails all at the same higth can weaken hoof in the nailing area. I can see logic in that observation. An argument can be made that high staggered nailing is not such a bad thing. Done enough TB feet to know the advantage of staggering your nails, useing old nail holes and planning for the next shoeing. Attempting to get them all straigt across just because it looks better is not always the best thing to do and in my mind can be a bad idea depending on the situation.

[Dave Purves]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage] I can see how haveing your nails straight across can weaken the foot. I have heard a few veteran farriers (no names) point out how placeing your nails all at the same higth can weaken hoof in the nailing area. I can see logic in that observation. QUOTE]

Perhaps those veteran farriers (no names) just weren't skilled enough to place their nails in a high, straight line, so it's just easier to come up with a reason not to do it.

just a thought

Dave

[Jaye Perry]

..
"Son, you paid for that nail you may as well use all of it." - Donald Jones, NC Tool Company. :)

That can be a dangerous Principle.

[Phil Armitage]

[QUOTE=Phil Armitage] I can see how haveing your nails straight across can weaken the foot. I have heard a few veteran farriers (no names) point out how placeing your nails all at the same higth can weaken hoof in the nailing area. I can see logic in that observation. QUOTE]

Perhaps those veteran farriers (no names) just weren't skilled enough to place their nails in a high, straight line, so it's just easier to come up with a reason not to do it.

just a thought

Dave

These guys could shoe circles around you and I. They could place a nail up a nats *** if they wanted.

[smitty88]

( Phil ) These guys could shoe circles around you and I. They could place a nail up a nats *** if they wanted.
__________________




How do you recon that Phil

[tbloomer]

That can be a dangerous Principle.
Jaye, we farriers are a dangerous lot. :)

[tbloomer]

I've had a few farriers describe the staggered nail theory. One of them demonstrated it for me on a horse where he nailed on side in a straight line and the other in a staggered line. The next foot he nailed in a straight line paralell to the shoe on one side and a straight line paralell to the hair line on the other side. When I asked him which way he thought was best he said . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

Barefoot ofcourse!

[Steve Swain]

I read in an old US Calvary shoeing manual, that they recommended staggering the nails.( Well not recommended the military never recommends) The theory was if a shoe was pulled there might be something left to nail a replacement to. In reality, in a healthy hoof it won't weaken the wall enough to make any difference. Unless the hoof is compromised in some way an uneven nail line shows me lack of pride or skill. but that's in my little universe.

[Phil Armitage]

( Phil ) These guys could shoe circles around you and I. They could place a nail up a nats *** if they wanted.
__________________




How do you recon that Phil

One day Grass Hopper I will show you. Smittyson. :)

[Phil Armitage]

I've had a few farriers describe the staggered nail theory. One of them demonstrated it for me on a horse where he nailed on side in a straight line and the other in a staggered line. The next foot he nailed in a straight line paralell to the shoe on one side and a straight line paralell to the hair line on the other side. When I asked him which way he thought was best he said . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

Barefoot ofcourse!

That was a good reply. :D

[tbloomer]

That was a good reply. :D
When I drive nails I focus on the feel of where the individual nail is going and don't pay any attention to where the other nails came out. Usually I get a straight nail line anyway. I find that the better I get at fitting the nail line on the shoe to the profile of the white line the more difficult it is for me to create a staggered nail line on the hoof. YMMV.

[tbloomer]

One day Grass Hopper I will show you. Smittyson. :)
Would that be demonstrated at the Phil Armitage Kung Fu farrier clinic? Will the participants be required to use chopsticks instead of tongs? Will Master Wu stop by and show us how to nail on shoes while blindfolded?

[smitty88]

Tom i dont think i will even reply to Phil thread
you said it all

there is 1 thing hes not lacking is self confidence
then again reading the other threads i wonder ?

[tbloomer]

Tom i dont think i will even reply to Phil thread
you said it all

there is 1 thing hes not lacking is self confidence
then again reading the other threads i wonder ?
Since Phil made the reference to veteran farriers and Steve made the reference to the US Calvary shoeing manual perhaps there is some validity to Phil's assertions.

Now we just need to ask Steve to lookup the section in the manual regarding placing nails up nat's asses. Maybe those farriers were "special forces" Brown Berets?

[Phil Armitage]

Tom i dont think i will even reply to Phil thread
you said it all

there is 1 thing hes not lacking is self confidence
then again reading the other threads i wonder ?

Smitty that would mean I am bi-polar. :eek: :D

[Phil Armitage]

When I drive nails I focus on the feel of where the individual nail is going and don't pay any attention to where the other nails came out. Usually I get a straight nail line anyway. I find that the better I get at fitting the nail line on the shoe to the profile of the white line the more difficult it is for me to create a staggered nail line on the hoof. YMMV.


Tom, I just want to know why Jaye Perry is not giveing you hell for useing "I" so much. Seems like your in one of those phases as a farrier that Uncle Jaye talks about. :D

[Phil Armitage]

Would that be demonstrated at the Phil Armitage Kung Fu farrier clinic? Will the participants be required to use chopsticks instead of tongs? Will Master Wu stop by and show us how to nail on shoes while blindfolded?

They can spit a hand made nail nail dead center in the hole of a hand made nail and in a single rapid strike drive it to perfect heigth, ring it off and hammer clinch.

[tbloomer]

Tom, I just want to know why Jaye Perry is not giveing you hell for useing "I" so much. Seems like your in one of those phases as a farrier that Uncle Jaye talks about. :D
Perhaps Uncle Jaye is sensitive to my fragile ego. Perhaps it is my style. Over the years I have converted from the long soft defensive styles to the short hard offensive styles. I focus on protecting my center line whilst exposing my opponent's center line. My perception is that Jaye and I are "sticking hands." Therefore when Uncle Jaye is giving me hell you wouldn't know it because you are unable to feel what I feel. Metaphorically speaking Jaye and I are in the Silat Pendekar meets Wing Chun novice phase. 'nuther words, I'm curiously looking into the barrel of Jaye's Howitzer. :)

[Jaye Perry]

Perhaps Uncle Jaye is sensitive to my fragile ego........novice phase. 'nuther words, I'm curiously looking into the barrel of Jaye's Howitzer. :)
Not really, you just haven't crossed the ****** line yet. Get off your kness and quit looking, people are begining to talk:D

[smitty88]

They can spit a hand made nail nail dead center in the hole of a hand made nail and in a single rapid strike drive it to perfect heigth, ring it off and hammer clinch.

Phil try get them to spit you out a camera and we can all
see what your about

[Phil Armitage]

Phil try get them to spit you out a camera and we can all
see what your about

I got me a new camera yesterday.

[smitty88]

I got me a new camera yesterday.

start shooting

[jack-mac]

Well boys there's an old saying a little nonsense now an then is relished by the wises men. Glad none of you blokes are shoeing my customers horses you are all stuck on this natural balance which is fictional rubbish a symmetrical shaped foot is a recipe for disaster it works against the horses biomacanics I don't know why they keep teaching this nonsense maybe its because they didnt know any better or there just plain **** ?

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

I'm sorry, but I've got to throw this in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, when one files beneath the clinch, prior to clinching, I was taught it had 2 basic reasons.
1. To remove the "dag" of horn created by the nail braking through the hoof wall.
2. To actually taper the clinch part of the nail, getting thinner from the point that the nail is bent to the end of the nail. The point of this was to produce a flatter sittting clinch, and reduce its strength slightly in the face of catastrophic stress on the shoe.
I was also taught not to undercut the hoof wall itself, as then the clinch becomes virtually useless due to the thinning effect of the wall between the nail body and the clinch.

Any comments, please?

[ranchoblanco]

I'm sorry, but I've got to throw this in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, when one files beneath the clinch, prior to clinching, I was taught it had 2 basic reasons.
1. To remove the "dag" of horn created by the nail braking through the hoof wall.
2. To actually taper the clinch part of the nail, getting thinner from the point that the nail is bent to the end of the nail. The point of this was to produce a flatter sittting clinch, and reduce its strength slightly in the face of catastrophic stress on the shoe.
I was also taught not to undercut the hoof wall itself, as then the clinch becomes virtually useless due to the thinning effect of the wall between the nail body and the clinch.

Any comments, please?

Yes- filing under the clinch removes the "burr" and seats the clinch into the hoof wall. Although i don't use on a regular basis- a gouge works well to place the clinches into the wall with more precision. It also prevents as you say any weakening to the wall (or thinning effect).
SOP for clinching is so "they are so smooth a blind man can't find em".

Mike

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Ron Oldenbeuving in gray

I'm sorry, but I've got to throw this in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, when one files beneath the clinch, prior to clinching, I was taught it had 2 basic reasons.
1. To remove the "dag" of horn created by the nail braking through the hoof wall.

We appear to be disunited by a common language: What'n hell is a "dag"? :)

2. To actually taper the clinch part of the nail, getting thinner from the point that the nail is bent to the end of the nail. The point of this was to produce a flatter sittting clinch, and reduce its strength slightly in the face of catastrophic stress on the shoe.
I was also taught not to undercut the hoof wall itself, as then the clinch becomes virtually useless due to the thinning effect of the wall between the nail body and the clinch.

After the wrung off or cut off nails have been set, one is hopefully left with as many stubs as one has driven nails. Next, one squares up the stubs with the file side of one's finish rasp; then a file or gouge is used to remove the horn displaced by the nail's exit. When one does this, one leaves a slight indention in the wall, just below the nail stubs. One then forms the clinches with a hammer or clinch tongs, causing the stubs forming the clinches to rest in the wall, not atop the wall, and the clinches appear roughly square, not much longer than they are wide. The clinches are then rasped flush with the wall, ideally so they cannot be felt with a bare hand.

When formed in such a manner, on most horses, one's clinches will hold the shoe to the foot without rising unduly during the normal shoeing period and, should the shoe become hung on something or stepped off, the clinches will straighten, allowing the shoe will pull cleanly, without taking a portion of the wall with it.

Any comments, please?

YMMV. :)

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray, emphasis mine

Well boys there's an old saying a little nonsense now an then is relished by the wises men. Glad none of you blokes are shoeing my customers horses you are all stuck on this natural balance which is fictional rubbish a symmetrical shaped foot is a recipe for disaster it works against the horses biomacanics I don't know why they keep teaching this nonsense maybe its because they didnt know any better or there just plain **** ?

LMAO! Patty? :)

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

We appear to be disunited by a common language: What'n hell is a "dag"? :) A loose or untidy leftover or burr. You gotta come to Oz one day, so we can teach you how to speak "strayan". ;)
After the wrung off or cut off nails have been set, one is hopefully left with as many stubs as one has driven nails. Next, one squares up the stubs with the file side of one's finish rasp; then a file or gouge is used to remove the horn displaced by the nail's exit. When one does this, one leaves a slight indention in the wall, just below the nail stubs. One then forms the clinches with a hammer or clinch tongs, causing the stubs forming the clinches to rest in the wall, not atop the wall, and the clinches appear roughly square, not much longer than they are wide. The clinches are then rasped flush with the wall, ideally so they cannot be felt with a bare hand.

When formed in such a manner, on most horses, one's clinches will hold the shoe to the foot without rising unduly during the normal shoeing period and, should the shoe become hung on something or stepped off, the clinches will straighten, allowing the shoe will pull cleanly, without taking a portion of the wall with it.

YMMV. :)And you dont think tapering the underside of the nail stub helps to produce a better clinch?

[jack-mac]

Ha tom I'm with Ron on this one mate uses blokes are hard to under stand by the way a dag has more than one meaning the first is a **** ball stuck to a sheep's *** second is anything hanging off that shouldn't be there & third any one who has no taste in clothing or cars furnisher etc etc

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Ron Oldenbeuving in gray, deletia

And you dont think tapering the underside of the nail stub helps to produce a better clinch?

I think it's a whole lot easier to form your clinch in the wall, then taper the turned over stub forming the outside of the clinch when you finish the foot.

Please see: <http://www.katyforge.com/how_to_clinch.html>.

[jack-mac]

Ha tom got it mate a picture is worth a thousand words have you got any on natural balancing, I still don't get what you blokes are on about it makes no sense to me, but I'm open minded if you could explain it a little bit more in detail I might understand the theory may be Iv been shoeing wrong all these years an didn't know it jack

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

Ha tom got it mate a picture is worth a thousand words have you got any on natural balancing, I still don't get what you blokes are on about it makes no sense to me, but I'm open minded if you could explain it a little bit more in detail I might understand the theory may be Iv been shoeing wrong all these years an didn't know it jack

Please see <http://www.katyforge.com/lecture.htm>. There aren't any pictures with the essay and I'm sure as hell not a proponent of Natural Balance for reasons I've stated ad nauseam - but any protocol that promotes a short lever in front ain't all bad. As I see it, there are many different schools of thought when it somes to trimming/shoeing, but none of 'em have the key to the lock on heaven's gate: every horse is different and Archimedes is still in charge.

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Since Jack likes pictures so much, I thought I'd knock up a quick sketch to illustrate what I was on about. After filing off the end of the clinches, a couple of quick strokes under the clinch gets rid of the dags and tapers the clincn at the same time. Just a matter of getting the angles right.

[tbloomer]

Since Jack likes pictures so much, I thought I'd knock up a quick sketch to illustrate what I was on about. After filing off the end of the clinches, a couple of quick strokes under the clinch gets rid of the dags and tapers the clincn at the same time. Just a matter of getting the angles right.
OY, that's how I do it. Sometimes I get me angles roight too. Gidday!

[jack-mac]

Ha tom not trying to be rude mate but they have got to be joking with that theory if I could get that much baloney on my salad roll every time i ate one Id be the size of a whale know and then some glad you didnt draw it it would of looked like a cow paddy all jokes a side thanks for posting it at least it makes sense of the nonsense

[calshoer]

Glad none of you blokes are shoeing my customers horses you are all stuck on this natural balance which is fictional rubbish a symmetrical shaped foot is a recipe for disaster it works against the horses biomacanics I don't know why they keep teaching this nonsense maybe its because they didnt know any better or there just plain **** ?There no set "symmetry" involved, so I dont know where you got that idea. Natural balance is shoeing around the foot's individual anatomy. The shoes CAN be shaped , you know. Its plain you don't know much about it.
And not every foot shod to NB specs will have the same angles, or ratios on the bottom, or width ,or toe length, anything. The structure of the individual foot dictates the shoeing.
Sometimes not even pairs of feet match, so theres no set 'symmetry' prescribed in Natural balance. So maybe you should learn a bit more about it before you call it rubbish.
It it taught because it works consistently well when it is applied correctly.
As well, the Worshipful Company of Farriers would not have approved it to be included in their curriculum now if it was not scientific .They scrutinized it very thoroughly before deciding to do that. I teach natural balance, and I'm certainly not ****.....My IQ is respectably high. :D
Patty

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

OY, that's how I do it. Sometimes I get me angles roight too. Gidday!Hey Jack, we're gonna have to teach this bloody lair mug to speak strayan.

Just as a point of interest, what is this gouge Tom mentioned. I'ts not something I've heard of before.

[jack-mac]

Hey colshoer.. Some really smart blokes thought the world was flat to once, and where did that get them. Stuck on a island not wanting to sail anywhere from fear of falling off. Probably stood around worshipping false gods. Think its still baloney mate, no wonder yous have so many horses in the united states with navicular. Shoeing aint rocket science, you trim the excess off and you replace it with a harder substance.How hard can that be??? Try not to contract the heels, leave the frog alone, leave the bars alone and only remove the flakey loose bits of sole. Gee now is that rocket science, i definitly dont think so. But the horse will be sound.

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Hey colshoer.. Some really smart blokes thought the world was flat to onceThe world aint flat, but most maps are the wrong way up, check this out.

[/url][url="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/Ron_Oldenbeuving/Therealworldmap.jpg"]World Map (http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/Ron_Oldenbeuving/Therealworldmap.jpg)

[jack-mac]

Ha ron mate beats me I have trouble making sense of what they say half the time they really try to church it up and lose me by the way I was tort to clinch my nails the same as your doing them has worked fine to date for me don't see a need to change just yet

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

Some really smart blokes thought the world was flat to once, and where did that get them. Stuck on a island not wanting to sail anywhere from fear of falling off.

Given that one can see the curvature of the earth from atop a mast, it's unlkely that anyone "really smart" ever thought the world was flat, much less a sailor.

Probably stood around worshipping false gods.

What're "false gods"? When you think about it, an animist in the Amazon has just as much proof his gods exist as does anyone else.

Think its still baloney mate, no wonder yous have so many horses in the united states with navicular.

Silly me, all these years I've been the incidence of heel lameness in our end of the sandpile was mostly a function of conformation and concussion. Since one of the tenets of NB is an effectively shortened phalangeal lever, the navicular bone is subjected to less compression during movement than it would be with a shoe fitted full to the toe - which suggests NB might be beneficial to any horse predisposed by DNA to navicular problems.

Shoeing aint rocket science, you trim the excess off and you replace it with a harder substance.How hard can that be???

For me, getting it right has always been damned difficult.

Try not to contract the heels, leave the frog alone, leave the bars alone and only remove the flakey loose bits of sole. Gee now is that rocket science, i definitly dont think so.

Anybody can nail on iron, but giving the horse exactly what it needs to do whatever it does as best it can is a different story. Meeting an individual's needs can make the difference between lighting the board and running back, the difference between a blue and a red, and sometimes, the difference between sound and crippled. For me, the infinite number of variables involved in precisely meeting an individual's needs make rocket science seem like child's play.

But the horse will be sound.

It's not difficult to keep a horse sound that doesn't do much; on the other hand, the more a horse is asked to do, the more difficulty is involved in keeping the horse sound, and the more important the meeting of the individual's needs. The cheese can get especially binding when everything that walks on one's mats has a problem, every one has something to do, and they're doing it for money.

[Rick Burten]

Just as a point of interest, what is this gouge Tom mentioned. I'ts not something I've heard of before.
A hoof gouge is a samall tool, with or without handle that is used to remove the bur from underneath the nail where it exits the wall, and to create a small channel/pocket that the clinch folds down into. It creates the opportunity for the farrier to use a smaller,lighter nail and still effectively ammend the shoe to the foot because it allows the nail to rest within the hoof wall rather than on tio of the hoof wall. This creates a tighter mechanical lock, and most always reduces the incidence of 'risen clinches'.

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

Rick, would you, or anyone else, have a picture of said implement? Much appreciated.

[jack-mac]

Rick, would you, or anyone else, have a picture of said implement? Much appreciated. Good call for that picture Ron a picture is worth a thousand words U.S that is ,I think your rite going to have to teach them to speak "strayan"

["Riddle"]

Vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

One link, battling intelligence.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/index.php?sid=a07f4358a6d12d1b397c1efe4a9b345c
I should have checked for posts by the BUAers.:rolleyes:


One link for the confused. There are different types of gouges, this is just the first clear one I found.
http://www.piehtoolco.com/media/jbccgctblurclinchcutgougecombotoola75e.gifThanks, that helps.:)