Laugh of the week

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

I frequent a whole bunch of farrier sites and I have had a look at a lot of the the cult trimmer sites also. Today I came across this site

http://www.equinepodiatry.net/certification_requirements.htm

and to my surprise with 400 hr's practical and a few hundred hours of practical (less than 2 months work) you can become a highly toughted Bachlor of Equine Podietry. I would just love too know what this degree might cost someone foolish enough to hand over their money.

[Phil Armitage]

What exactly is an Equine Podiatrist anyways? What is there role in the Hoof care profession?

[Ronald Aalders]

I think you're an Equine Podyatrist if you know how to spell it!



Ronald Aalders

[Mike Ferrara]

Would such things have a market without the internet? Maybe they should really be clasified as dot com companies?

But...if you send me $19.95 and a self adressed stamped envelope I'll send you a degree in equine podiatry. For an extra $10 I'll leave the thing blank and you can fill it in yourself and make it a degree in anything you want.

Also for a limited time get our super-duper automatic balanced hoof leveler gauge that will work at distances of up to 300 ft for $5 with any degree purchase.

I can't wait. We're all going to make a fortune when we don't need to carry steel, forges, hammers, tongs, punches, pads, hoof packing ect. I'll be able to work out of my 4 banger that gets 35 miles/gallon and carry everything I need in my hip pocket. And...we'll all have long fancy titles!

After that goes on for awhile we can make another fortune by introducing the horse shoe as an alternative treatment.

[Ronald Aalders]

Mike,


Remember to add the words barefoot and natural in your add!


Ronald Aalders

[Bill Adams]

Mike,
In your reply you refered to these sites as .com businesses, could you have meant .con?

Tuue story. Do y'all remember a month or so ago a barefooter was posting here identifing herself as "Equine Podiatrist". I responded to a few of her posts, and as she wouldn't give a real name I addresed her as "Eee Pee".
Well a couple of weeks ago I went to a clinic at The Horseshoe Barn in Sacramento and won a door prize box full of goodies one of which was a high quality tee shirt with only two words nicley printed across the front: Equine Podiatrist.
I gave it to my daughter who is a groom and aspiring trainer at an Arab barn. She picks out feet and looks for problems in them, so I would think that qualifies the title.

My $0.02,
Bill

[Red Amor]

I just went to look at the site Ron and I see the smut moths have come out and are soiling the E/P site

Ive been a bit crooked on these Equine things romping around down here
Im a more croocked on the owners that wouldnt lisern to the pleas of their belovered Farriers who begged to be alowed to help but no they took the advise of what is ofen a complete stranger

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Red,

I wondered about that one myself a few times. What are we doing wrong to drive a lot of people in hands of quacks??

What makes a owner bring his horse to an so called equine podiatrist (how is it spelled anyway?) often a long way from home for a handsome fee?

There must be a reason!


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

For the record, KC LaPierre was a full time farrier who has devolved from the application of shoes where indicated to a promoter of his own brand of barefootedness, the HPT"--High Performance Trim. At one time, while he was mostly promoting barefootedness, he would still recommed shoes if he felt they were indicated. Evidently he now has forsaken that avenue. When last I saw him giving a sermon(several years ago), his motto was "Shoeless, not Clueless". Which, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

Now, like others, he has a fiefdom to protect and nurture.

Caveat Emptor!

Rick

[Mike Ferrara]

Hi Red,

I wondered about that one myself a few times. What are we doing wrong to drive a lot of people in hands of quacks??

What makes a owner bring his horse to an so called equine podiatrist (how is it spelled anyway?) often a long way from home for a handsome fee?

There must be a reason!


Ronald Aalders

I have a theory.

Maybe it's not all our fault. People result to all kinds of things...like wearing crystals and magnets to cure different things.

In my years as a farrier and engineer the one near constant I have found is that when a manager, customer or whoever doesn't like your answer they find one they do like regardless of how obsurd it might be. Often these aren't people who know very much about the subject at hand and they listen to who ever tells them what they want to hear.

My own horses are in the yard right now just as barefoot as can be. I'm not hiking out in the cold and putting shoes on them unless they need it and right now they don't. Wouldn't it be convenient if I could let myself be convinced that they would never need more...that a piece of plexiglass with a line on it is what's been missing from equine foot care for the last couple of thousand years...that lowering the heel and bringing back to toe every once in a while would cure everything from founder to a crooked tail? Makes life simple don' it?

Then there's the effect of a flashy gimick or slick marketing on some folks. Look what Jim Jones talked people into doing.

[Donnie Walker]

I've been watching the NFR, and the bareback & saddle broncs sure are putting on a good barefoot show with some extreme moves, and so far, none have slipped or gone down, not saying they won't before the week ends.

[Red Amor]

Haya Fellers
You know I/we dont expect ticker tape parades in acolaide of what we are doing or have done
but I must admit that the disloyalty and ofen ingratitude , the indifference shown by some folk does hurt my feelings sometimes
jezz I know it shouldnt but when youve worked so hard to help someone you thought a friend or at least a top client and without so much as a by your leave youve been given the Sorbent treatment for a complete stranger

Still now and then you get one come back and there a tad on the humble side , I dont rub salt in but they are the first to experience the price rise
and it good to see the smile and hear a thankyou when you see them useing their horse happerly

[caballus]

Wellllllllllll, maybe we've got 2 "cults" on our hands ...
the 'ironmen' vs. 'podiatrists'?

Just a thought or so ... what makes one following/belief OK and the other not?

It's all in the mind of the believers ... and the truth shall be told by the horse.

--cab ;)

[Mike Ferrara]

Wellllllllllll, maybe we've got 2 "cults" on our hands ...
the 'ironmen' vs. 'podiatrists'?

Just a thought or so ... what makes one following/belief OK and the other not?

It's all in the mind of the believers ... and the truth shall be told by the horse.

--cab ;)

Maybe but I haven't met too many farriers who claim that a horse MUST have shoes. On the contrary most of us are the first to say that you use them when they're needed and the less you have to hang on a horse the better (in general) and barefoot is great if it works.

It's the "always" and "never" statements (as well as those who make them)that I wonder about.

Founder is a good example. We've had several threads recently that plainly show that even amung farriers and vets who are experience dealing with it and knowlegeable about the biomechanics of the foot there is still disagreement and uncertainty about which forces are significant and how significant they are.

Finding enough foundered horses to put together a statistically valid controlled studdy to prove anything would be pretty tough and apparantly hasn't been done yet. I personally put on my first adjustable heart bar shoe back in the late 80s. I don't remember the exact year but it was right after I started reading about it (and Mr. Chapman) all over the place. It seemed to work in that last I knew the horse was still going and he was a bloody mess when I was first called (by the attending vet). I've done different things with different horses too. Different vet, horse and owner..different approach. guess what? More than one approach seemed to work...or maybe just doing nothing would have worked. The point is that after 25 years and more than a couple cases I don't have anything that could be called a controlled studdy. I have some opinions and some anecdotal data but no proof. Yet there are those who claim they have it licked with just trimming tools. How do they know? Well, show me but until then I don't believe it.

I think the barefoot only camp just doesn't want to have have to learn to weld in the fire. LOL

[Phil Armitage]

I e-mailed KC awhile back and he responded a few times. Basicly asked him how he could believe that shoes are bad and that "All" horses can go barefoot and "never" need shoes. He was condensending, told me that I probably do not keep up with my education and that I do not know what propreiaception, sole caluse and subluxation is. I know his type, condesending, thinks everyone else doesnt get it and a know it all. Fortunately people like that are in the minority, however it still burns my butt, that there out there. I still believe common sense out numbers B.S., I meet people every day that restores my faith. Learning all you can about proper trimming is the best way to go for shoeing or going barefoot. I think it is a no brainer that using the terms Never and Always shows ignorance and lack of common sense. I believe most people like alternatives primarlily because of cost. I know people would love to save on shoeing if they can, who wouldnt? I like to have my horses barefoot, I do not know too many farriers that like shoeing there horses after a full days work, most of the time I can't even fit my owne in and they go over due. I just re-shod one of my horses last night who can't go barefoot I tried it with him, becuase he doesnt do much, but unfortunately he can't and it was 20 degrees in the barn. Lucky for me I have built a clientle base of people who trust me and leave it up to me as to shoe or not and what type of shoeing there horses need. I built this up over time and communication. I try to keep there horses sound and safe so that they can have a productive riding and training season. Most of my customers compete, take lessons and attend riding clinics and are very buisy people, they hate it when there horse can't work becuase of a lameness or thrown shoe. I understand this very well, becuase I do the same thing with my horses and I know how little time we have to enjoy them. I shoe for protection, support and traction, the horse and the rider benifit for safety and health reasons. I think it is wishfull thinking on the part of the Barefoot Trimmers out there to think you do not need to provide protection, support and traction. I wish it were the case also, but unfortunatly it is not "Always" possible with out some sort of a device like shoes, pads and traction device. People have tried many things on horses feet, and so far it is really hard to beet good farrier work and steel shoes. I know there is a lot of new information and ideas that are great and work very well, but horse owners need to be carefull about things that seem to good to be true, there are all kinds of gimmics out there and people looking for ways to make a fast and easy buck and this is a growing problem, especially on the World Wide Web. I see many situations where people are paying big bucks on Vet bills becuase of a mytery lameness that nobody can figure out, and all the horse probably needs is shoes. I found this site about 6 years ago and started posting on it, because of how much BS I saw on the Internet, figured I would spend time being an advocate of shoeing, since there are so many out there that are advocates of barefoot. If a horse owner wants to learn how to trim there owne horses, they would be better off to learn from there Farrier. I have no problem teaching my customers how to trim and maintain there horses feet. There are many situations and locations where this is the only way horses feet will get any care.

[caballus]

Suffice it to say, then, as with everything "equine" ... "it depends."

I took up "professional" trimming in my 50's. Not quite the average change of life career, I guess, for a grandmother of 4. <VBG> However, I had trimmed my own for quite some years prior to trimming for other people. I've studied hooves extensively and obsessively for the last 5 years -- and still have, always will have, something new to learn. I teach the basic natural trim in clinics, private instruction and courses. Notice the word ... "basic". I've learned that horse's hooves are as different from one another as snowflakes. But, that is true of all living critters, right? There are no "controls" with studies - can't be. There are too many variables within each horse itself, never mind the environment, feed, etc. Even if the environment, feed, water, etc. WERE all the same, there'd still be metobolic differences that cannot be altered or replicated from one horse to the other. So, it's back to ... it depends.

I've personally found there are few that NEED shoes! Nature created perfect hooves for the animal. Horses form their own shoes in the way of sole callouses. There are always exceptions, though, aren't there. Just as there are special kids/adults who need braces, prothesis, dentures, etc. But the majority are au-natural.

I've also found, over many, many years that there are few out there who really and truly have the best interest of the HORSE first and foremost. Making a living, putting food on the table, etc. has to come first. I've had every single farrier who worked on my horses and my kids' (4-H) horses tell us that the horse NEEDS shoes to be competitive and healthy. Bull-wacky I told them. Still do. But can't say I fault a starving farrier for wanting to make $450 every 8 weeks for special shoes vs. $30 or $40 every 4 weeks ($80 every 8). Personally, I have to follow my heart and gut. If I am working on a foundered horse that needs tweeking every week I charge only for the monthly reg. trim rate and take the time (close by) to go tweek the horse weekly on my own. It takes all of what, 5 mins? But then, I'm not supporting a family; just trying to keep hay and grain in front of 17 critters here and some in front of the hubby once in awhile, too! *LOL* So, you see, there's two sides to everything. It depends, it depends, it depends.

Again, ultimately its the horses that will tell us no lies ... and if we "listen" carefully, they'll let us know what they DO need.

--caballus :)

[Dave Purves]

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to talk a client out of putting shoes on. I make more money with less work just trimming. I could do three times the amount of horses a day with less equipment, and less "pain" in my back, shoulders, elbows, and hands. If there is a farrier out there that is trying to put shoes on just for the sake of getting more money they are on the wrong track. I know what it's like to feed a family of four, five horses, and four dogs. (Lord knows how many cats my wife is feeding up in the barn that I don't know about). I worked a full time second shift job while building my business, and the trims I had back then saved me. I couldn't afford to buy 30 different styles of shoes, or pads, or nails, I had a few basic shoes, a couple of boxes of 5 city nails and MX50's and went to work. As my trimming clientelle grew I was able to slowly build my inventory to fill the needs of the shoeing clients. I have a client that has 8 horses, breeds a couple of mares a year and has two horses with trainers. When I raised my prices I got the sob story, I can't afford this. Meanwhile my beat up truck is parked next to her brand new $30,000 trailer, and I have to walk past her brand new $10,000 tractor to get to the horses. We're not the only ones worried about feeding our family and our critters. You never know if shoes would've helped your horses or not, maybe they weren't necessary but they may have been helpful.

As far as the NFR, look at how long those bronc's feet are, most haven't been trimmed in a long time, they have so much excess hoofwall grown down that the hoofwall itself acts like a rim shoe.
JMO
Dave Purves CF :D

[Ronald Aalders]

Cab,

I can't believe how small your world must be without you noticing it. What do you mean "there are very view that NEED shoes"????

Have you ever seen a performance horse? For God's sake step out of that backyard, kick the mud from your shoes and explain me how I'm supposed to trim a reiner to stop nice? Or an eventer? Or a show jumper? Or a race horse? Or an endurance horse? NO WAIT! I bet you know that one horse that competes and is barefoot all the time! Good for him. But the mortal part of the equine species is not that lucky.

How can you sit behind your computer and type all the stuff you've been typing without having a clue how the vast majority of horses does their thing? AND NOT WORRY ABOUT IT? I got news for you, hold on here it comes:

The horse world is a little bigger than your customers backyard!

I bet the pony's in there don't need shoes! Very smart observation! But trying to persuade us that because of this cute observation no horse in the world should be with shoes is just plain ignorant!



Ronald Aalders

[Mike Ferrara]

I've never seen a 5 gaited sadlebred come steaming down the rail barefoot either, or a barefoot poly pony, or a barefoot Chicago Carriage horse or...

hey! that's the big three right? prtection, traction and gait alteration?

I will point out that natural horses in a natural environment don't rack down rails, pull carriages down city streets or play polo. All of it is very un-natural.

[caballus]

Ummmmmmm, I'm in the world I choose to be in but thanks, anyways. Been there, done that ... nope. I'm right where I wanna be.

Sheeesh .. did I not say that ****it depends**** !?!?!? Such panty bunchers around here!! Settle down boys -- didn't mean to ruffle the egos ... :rolleyes:

--cab

[Mike Ferrara]

Sheeesh .. did I not say that ****it depends**** !?!?!? Such panty bunchers around here!! Settle down boys -- didn't mean to ruffle the egos ... :rolleyes:

--cab

Yep you said that it depends.

[Red Amor]

It depends

I went to a little seminar in barefooting and was told that when a farrier answers a question with IT DEPENDS it was a sure sign that he or she had come to the end of their knowlage
Farriers were called dickheads on several occasions crule foolish bruts that bash steel on horses hooves and it entirley our fault that horses are so troubled but at least I was a good , nice dickhead actual words said , because I was now comming over to the right side , the good side
If I hadnt been in a friend house ,I felt like decking this billy goat

I felt it a huge shame that to get their message across this person felt the need to serverly rubbish another profession
we have all at some time bagged some one or thing but this was relentless and only ruiend the high regard Id held them in in the first place
they knew their oats and explained it very well and never needed to bag anyone to impress me

so thank you Caballus your so very right it does depend on many things

[Phil Armitage]

Cabalus or whatever your real name is. By the way why don't you just go by your real name? I could easely be makeing six figures working indoors in computer maintenance or any other electronic field, however I choose to be a farrier work outdoors in all types of weather, even when it is below 0 and do what is best for horses 5 days a week 50 weeks a year and some Saturdays, never Sundays. I made my career change at 35 and now I am 45 and feeling it. I have chronic back pain, my shoulders are so sore and fatiqued that I can barely lift my garrage door, but I can bend over and trim and shoe with no problem and right now I am happy with that, hopefully I can continue doing this for a few more years, becuase It is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I personaly know many farriers that have sacrifised there bodys, time with there family and personal time to do what is best for horses. Your statement realy offended me and is a slap in the face to many good men and women Farriers. And your statement that most horses do not need shoes is like saying most horse owners, Equine professionals, Riders and Trainers do not know what there doing. There seems to be a huge demand for shoeing, there is so much demand it is almost impossible for horse owners that do not currently have a farrier to find one. I take on what I can, but to be honest I do not need to, my schedule is full almost too full. I have never advertised, it is all word of mouth and the number of horse owners is growing quickly. Like Dave and others have stated, I have also lost track of how many times I have recommended that a horse should go barefoot. It is good for there feet and it is a lot easier and requires less skill to trim and I could make a good living just trimming and would not need all the tools in my truck, shoes, nails, anvil or a truck, however there are many horses that need shoes because of what they do for a job, mother nature never intended for horses to jump with a rider over and through rocks, fences, gravel etc. she never intended for horses to spin and come to a slideing stop with a rider, race with a rider, trail ride with a rider (sometimes very heavy riders) never indtended for horses to carry children that have no clue what there horses are running on. There feet are not that perfect and you are extremely clueless to think they are. Now with all that said, I am not knocking all the activitys that I just mentioned, because I also know that many horses love doing these things just as much as there riders do. So since this happens and horses need protection, support and traction and since I have skill and ablility to do it, I decided that if I am going to shoe them, then I want to do it right and I learn from everyone I can to make sure I am doing it right. I do not need to reinvent the wheel, there are many men and women that have been doing this trade for many years that are willing to help and share there knowledge. Fortunately for me and the horses I do, I have had good teacher, and I have practiced it correctly from the start.

[Mike Ferrara]

Good post Phil

And besides, the URL here is horseshoes.com. LOL

[SuperSTB]

New to the board here so forgive me...

A couple of interesting tidbits have been brought up in this thread. I began my *hoof fixation* several years ago with taking some clinics and one on one instruction with several barefoot trimmers. The reason is I could not find a farrier that I could depend on. There is certainly a BIG need for professional and knowledgable farriers in my area- Central New England.

But anyway, I began with barefoot trimming clinics and now have begun my journey into the *traditional* farrier trade. So if you wonder why the barefoot cult is growing- look to answer the question "is the farrier profession meeting the needs of the local equine community". In my area it is not...

I've been trimming for several years now- I run my own equine facility with boarders and we have 13 barefoot and 2 shod horses. For the most part I have pasture potatoes boarding that experience little to no real 'work' except for 2 of (my) standardbreds that are in a pretty busy program of hunter paces, showing, and breed demonstrations. They are barefoot and have ac***ulated many miles of paces with no soundness issues.

So why would I go into learning the trade of shoeing? Ask me 2 yrs ago and I would have said "shoes no way" but I have since learned:

1. that sometimes the *owner* needs to have a shod horse more than the horse does.
2. People hear that you can do trimming and they could care less about asking for references or experience they suddenly *need* their horse done and can't find an available farrier to do it. (VERY SCARY!)
3. Yes there are horses that need shoeing for the work they do.

I still wonder about the motives for some farriers out there that do a really BAD job however there are some really exceptional farriers that do exceptional work- trick is trying to get on their client list!!! We need more farriers!!!

[Gary Hill]

With all the differant breeds of horses on this good old earth of ours and just as many disciplines and use's for our beloved beasts, it seems there is just as many opinions as to the care for their feet. Barefoot vs being Shod should be the issue depending on it's usage. The same arguement holds true for the hot shoers vs the cold shoers. WHO knows which arguments hold the best benefits for the horses. As farriers that do this for a living we do have the mechanic mentality, as that we try to fix or do what we feel is best for that particular horse we are working on at that time. We didn't design the horse or it's feet, the Good Lord did and it's up to us to try to keep them sound and happy. I'm glad we do have THIS forum so that we can exchange ideas and techniques. I do hate when some break into attacking each other because of how they see and do things. I'm sure we all have fellow farriers in our own areas that don't see eye to eye on shoeing horses. I try to learn something even if its what NOT to do! Horsepeople, animalpeople, animal lovers excluding the PETA clan, do share more than most want to agree too,but that boils down to pride and ego. I hope we can all get along and I Wish Happy Holidays to everyone who reads these threads. Gary

[caballus]

Ya know -- I offered no personal attack on anyone here. I merely stated, honestly, what my own experience has been and what my own opinions are. I left the topic open on both sides and was fair. If someone feels personally attacked ... well, then, I guess that's a personal issue. My statements about what I've experienced seem to be duplicated somewhat by SuperSTD who is from the same area of New England that I'm from. While my horses were under "farrier" care we ran the gamut from sand cracks, chips, quarter cracks to thrush that was really yeast and white line "separation" and seedy toe that was "nothing to worry about". I finally turned to a Barefoot Specialist to teach and mentor me because 2 of my horses mechanically foundered. I got fed up and decided if anyone was going to ruin my horses hooves then *I* would be the one to take responsibility. This was about 4 or 5 years ago. I got sick and tired of the incompetencies from years of hooves being 'treated' badly. Again, nothing personal to any one person here of course but that's my story. I then, as I said in my earlier post, proceeded to obsessively study for the last 5 or 6 years -- Bowker, Ovnicek, Pollit, Bergy, Redden, Jackson, Ramey, and others (and yes, Hiltrud Strasser, as well). I've found that the more I learn the more there is to learn as I hope everyone here has found, also. I've worked, trained and ridden for going on 38 years now. And every day I learn something new about horses. I joined this board a while ago - been frequenting and reading it for the last couple of years but just recently began to post and ask (and sometimes answer) questions. It doesn't ever hurt to ask questions and I certainly also have the right to my own opinions and the right to post what I believe to be honest answers. I've not dissed anyone here, nor will I. I respect all of you for your passion ... I also expect to be respected as well. Again, I attacked no one personally and won't, ever.

Now, given the title of this thread and the original note posted, perhaps I'm in the wrong forum. How sad, though, not to be able to share positive experiences (sometimes negative) and worthwhile opinions and beliefs without apprehension of condemnation. I think I've learned a bit more about human nature here than I bargained for. Think I'll stick with horses. Y'all can keep humanity.

--caballus (whose info is public for all to see, btw ...)

[Ronald Aalders]

Cab,

I don't know if it's any help, but I've known most of the boys and girls on this board for a while now. I never noticed anyone of them advocating a type of shoeing, (or trimming for that matter) excluding all others. Also I know the guys here shoe and trim and do other stuff on the side if need be.

What nerves me personally is the barefoot camp trying to convince us that all we do is hurt the horses we shoe. While at the same time the barefoot camp has not got a clue (or plainly ignores) what kind of horses we shoe or else they would not be saying we're supposed to just trim a 5 gaited saddlebred, or a reiner or any other horse that obviously could not compete w/o shoes. We all respect each other (including trimmers) for what info they can give. That info we fit in in our own work where useful.

But we do not go around telling trimmers they're not doing a good job because they don't shoe! How arrogant can you get?

Btw, mind the use of the genus "barefoot camp" here.



Ronald Aalders

[SuperSTB]

And to comment on the very start of the thread. Actually KC has the credentials to back up his theories. I will be auditing one of his clinics this summer but then again I attend any I can get my hands on from traditional to the barefoot camp. Doesn't mean I think they are all *right* but with so many theories of hoof care out there...

Many are probably having difficulties understanding his *certification* of trimmers. I agree in many aspects for the price someone pays to get certified w/ KC one can attend a college program- yes people will spend thousands with KC. But apparently he is filling some sort of need because he has a full roster and no open space in his schedule for clinics.

Hmmmmm

*Hey Cab- you know me :)

[Dave Purves]

Yes I'm quite certain that there is a need for this. The fact is ever since the Vietnam era, the hippy population has grown and they are now the professors in our institutes of higher education. Teaching our young people this same "natural" way of life. Don't cut down a tree, don't smoke a cigarette, don't drive a big car or truck, don't drink pop, don't use aerosol cans, don't go hunting, don't own a gun, don't think for yourself. This way of thinking has spilled over into the equine community, and the people like this that own horses need something like this to fullfill there hippy ways. When you really break it down, Mr. Lappierre, and Ms. Strasser are only two people, I'm sure there are a few more that have their own way of keeping horses barefoot but it is such a small number that who cares. Barefoot whackos are such a small percentage of owners and trimmers that the only people that get bent out of shape about it are us.
jmo
Dave Purves CF :)

[cowboy_bc]

Hi all,

When I started this thread I figured it would create some good fun! Having had horses lose their footing and fall on me four times riding x-c even with shoes it seems to me that it’s a no brainer that some need shoes for the good of the horse and rider. I frequent some other boards also and wherever you go it’s always the same broken record playing the evil empire of farriery song. It’s funny when you get talking specifics and back them against the way they disappear from the board for a while so it’s apparent most backyard cult trimmers are all talk. My gut feeling is that most people get on the barefoot wagon solely because they don’t want to pay $100 bucks a shoeing and couldn’t do it themselves, duh. It surprises me that these clinicians who perpetrate these barefoot scams don’t trim horses in bare feet wearing some sort of gown of the sort worn in biblical times?

[SuperSTB]

Farriers can also market whatever niche of shoeing or non-shoeing practices they deem their 'expertise' in. I equate it to the Monty Roberts following- did he *invent* join-up? Heck NO been around long before he was born he was just clever enough to profit from a concept.

[Mike Ferrara]

Hi all,

It surprises me that these clinicians who perpetrate these barefoot scams don’t trim horses in bare feet wearing some sort of gown of the sort worn in biblical times?

Speaking of Biblical times...as most here are aware the quest to to keep horses sound by protecting their feet probably goes back that far. Lots of things were probably tried prior to the ability to forge and nail on a shoe. Also just like airplanes, computers and other things military applications were among the primary driving factors. If they could have done it without covering the horses foot with something they wouldn't have gone through all the trouble.

[matryoshka]

I'm new to trimming and shoeing. I've had horses for 30 years, and recently signed up for a shoeing class at my local community college. I wanted to learn how to intelligently trim my own horses, because my farrier is retiring and I didn't want to go on a hunt for a new one. Not all farriers are of equal quality, and I dreaded the search for a good one.

It sounds like a lot of you out there hear mostly complaints about farriers. It's a shame, because the people posting to this board sound like you really care about how each individual horse responds to your work. Unfortunately, there are a number of farriers out there who think that nailing a shoe on tight means they do good work and don't really worry about whether a hoof gets slowly out of balance.

I think it is natural for there to be a backlash from this kind of shoeing in the horse community. And probably mostly from backyard horsemen (such as myself). The better you get as a farrier, the pickier you can be about your clientelle and work environment. So we backyarders with less than ideal facilities get the newbies who can't be so choosy about where they work. Or we get the farriers who do poor jobs and don't get a whole lot of return business.

This may be where some of the barefoot-only crowd gets their negativity. Personally, I want to keep my own pasture potatoes barefoot, partially because of the expense of shoes, and partially because I worry less about them in the bad weather when they are barefoot. They have relatively correct conformation and wear evenly--other than a tendency toward low heels and long toes (TB breeding), they are perfect candidates for going barefoot.

But if I took these same horses and used them for daily trail rides and lessons, they would probably need shoes to stay sound. In our farrier class, we see horses in daily work that have tried to go barefoot and end up extremely sore with feet worn down to nubs. Most of the horses have somewhat crooked legs and haven't a chance of wearing evenly. It would be cruel to force these animals to stay barefoot. Still, there are a few who contintue do really well barefoot (mostly with Arab or Morgan breeding, I think).

So I guess I'm suggesting that when you hear criticism of farriers in general, or of shoeing, don't take it personally. Chances are the person is venting about somebody specific and making an inappropriate generalization. We backyarders have a different outlook, probably because our horses are pets. We may be prone to form biases that are totally unjustified.

When I finish my course, I may decide to do trims for other people. I'll stick to backyard horses because that is what I know. I have a number of friends who can't get farriers to come out on a regular basis or fail to show up for appointments. If I come across a horse that needs shoes, I'll have to refer them to a farrier who does shoeing.

I have a lot of respect for the knowledge and experience that the people who post on this site have acquired.

[mwmyersdvm]

While this site is promoting something it cannot deliver is laughable, it is also tragic. One cannot be a podiatrist without a medical degree. To work on horses (or any other animal) this requires a doctorate in veterinary medicine - D.V.M., V.M.D., or equivalent. The same applies to EDT's - equine dental technicians. They are not equine dentists even though they are often referred to in this way.
At this time an official podiatry specialty does not exist within the profession so in essence it does not exist outside of it either.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

[cowboy_bc]

Doc Myers.

Exactly, just more **** from the bare foot only scam artists. That’s why I started this thread and in fact I could print up diploma’s on my computer that would be just as valid, would anyone would like one?

[Red Amor]

Im sorry , Im usually a very fair minded man I believe
But the barefooters give me the ****S

[Mike Ferrara]

I had a lady tell me that her farrier was an equine podiatrist. the horses weren't barefoot but maybe they should have been. I left with the impression that an equine podiatrist was some one who couldn't fit a shoe or drive a nail.

[Mike Ferrara]

I think it is natural for there to be a backlash from this kind of shoeing in the horse community. And probably mostly from backyard horsemen (such as myself). The better you get as a farrier, the pickier you can be about your clientelle and work environment. So we backyarders with less than ideal facilities get the newbies who can't be so choosy about where they work. Or we get the farriers who do poor jobs and don't get a whole lot of return business.


Some farriers don't care for backyard accounts for some of the reasons you state.

The work environment is something you can usually do something about with a little imagination even if you don't have a big fancy barn. It's as much for safety as it is for comfort. If there isn't a good place to tie a horse naturally you need to be there to hold the horses or maybe be willing to pay for some one to do it. Unfortunately, because of work schedules and such for many back yard accounts it means that they want the farrier in the evening or on the weekend. If a guy wants to work in the evening or on a weekend he may want to be paid a premium which seems reasonable to me.

The other problem of course is having to travel long distances to get to a small munber of horses. Again this drives up cost and creates scheduling problems. Again, with a little planning you might be able to get around this too. Maybe try to get on a schedule with a neighbor, call the farrier far enough in advance or better just have the farrier put you on a schedule.

Provided those challanges can be overcome, I like working for the back yard folks. Unfortunately all too often no effort is made and it's left to the farrier to deal with it or refuse to come out.

I took on some clients this past summer who were having trouble getting some one. I get there and the only place to work is the drive way. A drive way can work but it was 90 degrees and no shade. The asphalt was so hot that if you set a shoe down for a few minutes you couldn't hardly pick it up with your bare hands. Neither me or the horse could take it and I ended up moving all over the yard chasing little bits of shade, level ground and going back and forth to the anvil (which I didn't carry around the yard). I must have walked 5 miles just shoeing that one horse. Oh and it was of course pointed out that I was a good bit more expensive than their last farrier. I think I got heat stroke and was sick the rest of the day too. I probably should have just left but I didn't. How much would you need to charge to make that worth doing?

At the same time, I'm thinking that a canopy for shade and a few sheets of plywood for flooring might make the whole thing workable.

[Phil Armitage]

Lots of good feedback and great points here and I took a lot of it in, but I have to mention there are a lot of unrealistic horse owners out there that think they can owne a horse as a pet (bad idea) horses need proper care and a job. There are too many people that want a horse and do not have a clue about how to properly care for them or train them and expect a Vet and Farrier to come out and perform miracles on there unrulely filthy horses in a mud hole. It should be against the law for Adoption/Rescue agencies to be finding any home they can for horses, some of these horses were heading for slaughter for a good reason and there being put back out into the public by greedy and unresponsible people into the hands of totaly inexperienced people. I heard a story the other day from a fellow Farrier about a Mare in foal that was adopted from an organization in Canada (Live and let Live), the horse is kept in a basement and never handled, halter hasn't been off for who knows how long digging into her nose (they want to keep her barefoot, maybe so she won't slip on the basement floor :confused:). The people who adopted this horse have never owned horses before, totaly new to horses. The BLM at least goes out and checks your home before you can adopt a Mustang. I have a huge backyard horses clientle and there great horses and great people who know how to properly care for the horses and most of them probably can get any Farrier they want becuase they do things right. There is usually a pretty good reason why a saine Farrier won't go out to certain people, thank God most of them are great people and know something about horses, but there is a lot of ignorance out there that can get an Equine professional into a lot of trouble or injured. I understand there is a demand for barefoot hoof care, but even trimming takes proper education and practice and it does not require a high price tag and a degree from a greedy crippled former Farrier looking for a way to continue makeing a living. The good thing, is there are plenty to practice on and plenty of people willing to save a buck and let anyone practice on them, so I quess even if it is madness it provides some kind of purpose. We need to raise the bar in shoeing, people need to stop looking for cheaper ways to properly care for there horses feet, the care does not end with the Farrier, proper hoof care is a daily task and it is also important to have proper turn out, nutrition, excercise and clean stalls if you cannot provide these basic things for a horse, then don't owne one.

[matryoshka]

Hey Phil,

I agree with you 100%. My horses don't have a regular job, but they're pretty happy with 24 hr turnout and a nice run-in shed, plenty of good-quality hay, and good feed. I don't blame a farrier who doesn't want to trim in a run-in shed (with me holding the horse) or who doesn't want to come for one or two horses. Business wise, it just doesn't make sense for them. That's partly why I've taken a course to learn how to do it myself. I don't want to mess up my horses' feet.

The problem is that horses in less than ideal homes still need hoof care. I'm thinking of trying to fill this void in my area--problem is, these horses most likely won't be well behaved. Uneducated horse owners rarely seem to teach their animals good ground manners. I don't know if it is possible to do what I want, but I'm willing to give it a try. I'd like to apprentice with somebody for a while to get more experience with different hoofs and leg conformation. I don't want to screw up anybody else's horse, either, even if it is just a pet.

I was wondering if any of you give new clients a sheet of information on how to make your life easier--like having the horse on a level surface, with clean legs and feet, tips for teaching them to stand for the farrier, having either a holder available or crossties, etc. That way you could give them the info up front and not have to lecture anybody about what you expect. If so, has this made client relations any easier?

[Dave Purves]

I don't pass out a list of things that would make my job easier, but it's common sense.

1. Well behaved horses
2. Clean at least dry horses
3. Clean unlittered, well lit area to work
4. Flat, level ground to work on
5. Shoeing area that isn't a mile away from my truck
6. Pay me when services are rendered
7. Don't complain everytime I'm there about the price


That is pretty much it. It's not rocket science, I had a client the other day walk her horse through a creek, through the mud pen (and with the rain we've had lately it was about 6 inches of nasty slimey mud) The creek was up so it came up to his knees. When she brings the horse up the first thing she said was "your used to mud aren't you?" Like I live in a mud hut, and woller around in mud all day, so it shouldn't be a big deal. This horse was soaking wet, and covered in slimy mud. I know guys that send out lists of what costs extra.

1. Mud on the horse $20
2. Horse not ready to be worked on at the appointment time $25
3. Bad work area $50
4. Unruley horse $100 every 1/2 hour

Put yourself in our shoes, what would you want? We don't ask for tips, or cold or hot drinks, just have the horse ready to go when we get there, have a decent place to work out of the weather that is accesible to our truck, and pay us when we're done. My expeirence with backyard owners has been great, I have quite a few and wouldn't give them up for anything, but I've fired twice as many and been fired by even more, my prices are too high, they want me to trim the dancing pony in the backyard surrounded by dogs and dog **it and screaming kids in the rain. I have a business to run, I have kids to feed and put through college, and I have a retirement fund that needs to be filled, I have to pay for my families health care insurance, I have to outfit my truck, I have alot of responsibilities, even more than most people with a regular job, they have 401K plans, and subsidized insurance, I don't get that, and when a client wants to cry over $10 or $20 I don't have time for them.
treat us the way you would want to be treated, not the way you would EXPECT to be treated
Dave Purves CF :)

[Mike Ferrara]

they want me to trim the dancing pony in the backyard surrounded by dogs Dave Purves CF :)

Hey what is it with the dogs anyway. The number of people who think I like to work with a couple of dogs under the horse with me seems to be getting out of hand. I reach for a tool and get a dogs butt instead. If I wanted dogs in my face I'd bring my wifes muts. LOL The horses are ours but the dogs are hers. you can't ride em, she won't let me eat em, they, mess up the house and they eat too much. sorry I had to jump in and whine on that one. I'm gonna start charging big time for dog sitting.

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Phil,

I agree with you 100%. My horses don't have a regular job, but they're pretty happy with 24 hr turnout and a nice run-in shed, plenty of good-quality hay, and good feed. I don't blame a farrier who doesn't want to trim in a run-in shed (with me holding the horse) or who doesn't want to come for one or two horses. Business wise, it just doesn't make sense for them. That's partly why I've taken a course to learn how to do it myself. I don't want to mess up my horses' feet.

The problem is that horses in less than ideal homes still need hoof care. I'm thinking of trying to fill this void in my area--problem is, these horses most likely won't be well behaved. Uneducated horse owners rarely seem to teach their animals good ground manners. I don't know if it is possible to do what I want, but I'm willing to give it a try. I'd like to apprentice with somebody for a while to get more experience with different hoofs and leg conformation. I don't want to screw up anybody else's horse, either, even if it is just a pet.

I was wondering if any of you give new clients a sheet of information on how to make your life easier--like having the horse on a level surface, with clean legs and feet, tips for teaching them to stand for the farrier, having either a holder available or crossties, etc. That way you could give them the info up front and not have to lecture anybody about what you expect. If so, has this made client relations any easier?

matryoshka,

First and most important is your safety and the safety of others and the horses. This is a serious buisness and the risk is very high. No insurance company is going to cover neglagence and poor choices. It is dangerous enough on good trained horses in the hands of good horse people becuase the unexpected can happen anytime. The risk increases significantly when your under untrained flighty horses in the hands of inexperienced people. You need to set the rules and others need to play by them or as the "Don" says "Your Fired". I will tolerate many things, but when my safety is compromised I am pretty firm. One red flag to look out for are people that hide there fear, they pretend to be in control and the horses can sense they are not. Horses depend on a leader, people that are fearfull and nervous will set off even good horses. I am at the point in my life where I do not mind imbarrising someone and give a **** about Public Relations, I tell it like it is and if a person doesnt like it, that is there problem. At least I am in one piece, having fun and can continue to shoe another day. You need to be in control and it is your choice to get under a horse or not. Everytime I have gotten injured it was my owne fault, I knew I was in a bad situation to start with and I should have backed out. After you get hurt real bad you tend to smarten up. It is not a matter if your going to get hurt it is a matter of when your going to get hurt. I have been injured a few times and had many close calls. One situation really got my attention, inches away from getting my head kicked off and the horse's foot hit a wall right next to my head and sounded like nothing I have ever heard, the impact was tremendous, if it was my head I know I would not be sitting here today. You need to be able to read horses, read people and make good choices. Inorder to have these skills you need to hang around horses everyday and ride with eperienced Farriers and learn from good horse people. You have not seen anything yet until you start getting around and see the real world. Untrained horses, horses that are spoiled are the worse, many people think horses are abused, but I beg to differ, I see more people abused by there horse than horses abused by people and they do not even know it. Too many people are trying to be the horses friend and if I feed them and treat them real nice maybe they will like me. It is not about likeing you it is about respect, pecking order, trust and leadership. Horse do not lie, they know a whimp and they hate whimps because a whimp is not going to save you and horse like to feel secure and safe.

[matryoshka]

Once again, great advice. It's important to know when to walk away from a bad situation. I think I'm pretty decent at reading people and horses. Over the years I've bred and trained a few, retrained some nasty ones, and helped other people train their horses. I've had to give up on some real bad ones, too. But I need a lot more experience with trimming horses of all temperaments (and conformations) before I can go out there on my own with any confidence. Now I need to find a farrier who will let me ride around with them!

Thanks one and all for the great posts and helpful information on this site!

[2R Farrier Services]

Phil,

I couldn't agree more...there is a huge difference between abuse and honorable respect!