i am lost

[Horse angle]

Hello and thank you in advance for reading my post. I have a navicular horse for 6 years. I found out he was navicular 6 months after buying him. I was new with horses and the former owners omitted to tell me about the problem. $%^^&$$*$%. He has been great off and on.. My first farrier took care of my horse for 2 years. When the vet got in the picture he told me my horses heals were too low and to change farrier. So i did. The farrier i had after him did not do much for my horse.. The one i have now has been keeping my horse sound for 1 1/2 years.. These past 2 months he has been trimming my horse too short , so my horse could hardly walk for the firts 3 to 4 days. He tells me it is my fault and i should only get my horse trimmed every 8 weeks.. I have a problem with this. My horse shoes have a frog protector welded in his shoe.. After 6 weeks the heals touches the protecter and this hurts him...


This month he trimed him so short that the horse could not walk at all for 4 days.. It was a horror to see. Now after 4 weeks my horse has started to limp.. This has not happend to us for 1 1/2 years.
The very first farrier i ever had wants to come see my horse. He says the farrier i have now is a joke.... The one i have now says my old farrier is a joke. What do i do ???????

Why do some farriers put each other down ?

I am fed up all i want is to help my horse..

help i do not know how to help my horse any more!!!!!!!!!! I feel like i should take a farrier course and do my own horse. I am so sick and tiered of dealing with all of this . But i love my horse more than life it self.


Thank you
Carolyn

[calshoer]

Its been a couple of years. It is probaby time to ask the vet to do a re- evaluation of the navicular syndrome to see if it has progeresses or has gotten anty betterm, and at the same time evaluate the shoeing and ask the vet for a referral for a farrier that he works well with and HE trusts. Forger what farrier s ay about each other, ask someone who is a professional in lameness issues and independant from the farriers. (the vet) .
BTW there is no good excuse to trim a horse too short. The length of time between shoeings is not the deciding factor as to how much foot to trim off. Even if was shod a just a week or two ago, (instead of 8 weeks) the farrier should know how much foot that can be removed at that moment.
Would you trim the same amount of fingernails off if it had been three months or a weeksince the last time ? hardly. Blaming a lame horse after a shoeing on YOU would be cause for dismissal, in my book.
Patty

[Horse angle]

Thank you Patty:

The farrier i have now works with the vet. He does keep My horses heels too long. You had told me that a year ago when the farrier i have now and i had put pads with a degree on my horse.. The farrier use to listen to me but now that he has many clients he does not care a hoot about us any more. I feel like i am dealing with crazy people right now. The only words that comes out of his mouth is that its my fault. In my back he also told my ranch owner that Quote " tic toc tic toc it sounds like meat time for this one" I am sorry but that really got the worst out of me.. We are suppose to be a team. here are the old pics of my horses shoeing. please advise me patty.. I feel your the only one i can trust.. Im telling you if i could i would trim my horse myself.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/Carolyn492/IM001829.jpg

[WashingtonBay]

As a Navicular horse owner as well, I sympathize with the rather vague and conflicting information often given. If you scroll down in this Navicular forum, this thread was about my horse: Progress check - 23 year old Arab... (http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2317)

I agree it's time to have the vet out again... and if possible, find out who is the best vet in your area for really evaluating horse movement and horse lameness. Not all are as good as others at subtle lameness issues.

I'm curious, what kind of riding do you do, and besides shoes, are you giving any other medication or other treatment?

[Horse angle]

[
I'm curious, what kind of riding do you do, and besides shoes, are you giving any other medication or other treatment?[/QUOTE]


I ride western and only trail ride now. I also do some parelli with him.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, I'd never have a farrier back who trims too short and blames me. But I think the farriers on the forum will cover that part.

I'm more interested in the non-shoe part. What age is he? Is he on any meds? Is he able to trail ride with you most days? Is he obviously lame or just subtlely slow some days?

I ask because I have one too, who is really feeling good this year with what I've been doing, but I don't want to assume the two are the same. Our situations may be very different, but my horse has been on Isoxuprine which helps with circulation and is prescription, and occasional Bute on ride days. I dropped him down for awhile in how much I gave him, but have decided this year that I will not be reluctant to give him what he needs, not just to get around, but to feel ~good~ doing it. These things the vet could help you with... I think it's both a veterinary and shoeing issue.

[Horse angle]

My horse is a 16 year old quarter horse. We are on no meds except devils claw and glucosamine . Once in a while after his shoeings i give him bute for about 3 days.. All days have been good days since 1 1/2 years. Today he was as lame as can be.. i cryed my eyes out. We tryed Isoxuprine it did not work for us. I even looked into getting him operated but i am trying to hold that for last resort.

Regards
Carolyn

[WashingtonBay]

I understand about wanting to avoid surgery if possible. Curious for my own sake when and why Isoxuprine was tried and what didn't work about it... If there was no change or he remained lame, are you sure the shoeing was good then? Since your shoeing has been better and worse, I just wanted to make sure all the variables were working together when it was tried.

I'd keep working with your vet, and really wish you luck finding a good shoer. Good luck.

[Rick Burten]

Your current farrier sounds like a lout and should be sent packing.

I agree with everyone that a new evaluation, including radiographs is in order.

If you were satisfied with farrier #1 and since he wants to see the horse anyway, I'd be inclined to let him have a look and then see what he thinks.

If all the vet didn't like about the way the first farrier was attending to your horse, then rather than tell you to find a new farrier, the vet should have written a shoeing prescription for the farrier to follow, or, just told you to have the farrier contact him so they could discuss the case and arrive at a suitable trimming and shoeing protocol. Perrhaps its time for a different vet too.

[Horse angle]

Yes x-rays is a must and will be done.. I agree with you 100% . The trainer i had a few years ago is going to give me number of her farrier that she has used for the past 7 years... I am sorry for sounding so confused but i am. It a big thing for me to be pulled one way and then an other like i am now. I am disapointed in the way my farrier acted. I thought we were a team. I guess he just showed me the team he is in is only the $$$$$$ team.

Regards
Carolyn

[Dave Purves]

This is an xray of a horse I'm working on now. These are some pretty bad Navicular Bones. This is a LF. When presented to the vet, the vet said he was 3/5 lame. I shod this horse with aluminum eggbars, with a full pad with equipak under the pad. When presented his feet were terribly out of balance and short shod. The vet re-evaluated 7 days after shoeing, and noted that the horse was 80%-90% better only 1/5 lame going to the left. Right front is a club so I don't know how long we'll keep him sound. Both fronts have degenerated navicular bones.

Dave

[Kaydence]

Your current farrier sounds like a lout and should be sent packing.

I agree with everyone that a new evaluation, including radiographs is in order.

If you were satisfied with farrier #1 and since he wants to see the horse anyway, I'd be inclined to let him have a look and then see what he thinks.

If all the vet didn't like about the way the first farrier was attending to your horse, then rather than tell you to find a new farrier, the vet should have written a shoeing prescription for the farrier to follow, or, just told you to have the farrier contact him so they could discuss the case and arrive at a suitable trimming and shoeing protocol. Perrhaps its time for a different vet too.

I agree with Rick here. You need to be certain about the vet you are working with, as well as the farrier. You might want to have a talk with farrier #1 and just say something about how upsetting it is to hear farriers badmouthing eachother and could he just tell you what he'd like to change and why, instead of telling you what the last guy did wrong. At a farrier competitions, with everyone standing around, watching the before and after feet, and the farrier who did the work standing right there, everyone can discuss things in a diplomatic way.

Do you have access to an equine vet who specializes in lameness? That might be a good starting point.

[Horse angle]

The vet is coming this week.. Every thing will work out i am sure.. Dave can you point out to me on the x-ray were his navicular degeneration is.

Thank-you
Carolyn

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/Carolyn492/File0066.jpg
Here is one of my x rays from 3 years ago.. You can not see much because i scanned it and did not turn out too clear.

[calshoer]

Sorry but the scanned Xray is pretty much useless due to lack of detail.
As well, the vet didn't even take the shoes off. Removing the shoes is a necessity to take enough views to see all aspects of the navicular bone. This would all be part of proper Xray procedure to diagnose navicular bone changes. Therefore it would be virtually impossible for him to get a clear enough enough view of the bone, completely free of artifiacts, to give an acutate reading.
get new, corent Xrays from a competent vet. Preferably one with a digital Xray machine to see more detail. AND have a farrier there at the same time , get a lateral and AP view (side and front) BEFORE the shoes are removed to see how the foot is curently balanced and where the shoe is set in relation to the bones.
Then have the farrier pull the shoes ,clean the foot of all dead sole and frog material m,ark the frog apex with a thumbtack, Place a wire marker on the doesal hoofwall, pack the foot with Play doh, and take the rest of the pictures for the diagnostic puroses.
It's well worth the little extra time and expense to see where exactly the foot is this at this time. Then use the new Xrays as the 'blueprint' for accurate foot balancing and shoeing. If your vet is not willing to take a series of properly set up Xrays, and then work with a farrier directly mapping the shoeing out EXACTLY from current Xrays ,then find a farrier vet team who will.
Patty

[Dave Purves]

If you look inside the yellow cirlce you'll see a bunch of "holes", or darker areas. Those are the "degeneration" or "lollipops" as people like to call them.

If you look inside the red circle you'll see the abnormalities of the coffin bone compared to the other side. One side is nice and smooth and even the other side is real choppy. This has something to do with this particular horses lameness but nothing to do with his "navicular problem".

Dave

[Horse angle]

The vet will take x-rays at my next shoeing.. Thank-you David for the detailed explication.

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Horse Angle, I also agree with Rick.

When you were originaly told by your Vet to get a new farrier you should have seen this as unprofessional. Your Vets comments are reasons to send the Vet packing and get a new Vet. Is it possible your original farrier was trimming correctly and the angle of feet needed to be addressed. Wedge pads can be added to improve the angle however makeing this decision requires observeing the horses gait at the walk and trot on a hard flat surface and many other factors. Also working with the Vet useing radio graphs. Sounds like you have now been forced to do all this, however all in a reactive mode with no plan. The only individual that appears to be professional, reasonable and patient is your original farrier. It sounds like your current farrier and the Vet that told you to get a new farrier are the joke. Good luck, personaly I would not come back to you after your fired me like that.

[Horse angle]

Hi Phil:

I think i did not explaine myself properly. Sorry.

The Vet that told me to get a new farrier is out of the picture for 1 year.
The farrier that vet told me to use is also out of the picture. My first farrier and I are still Talking to each other. I did not fire him in an unpolite or disrespectfull way nor anything like that. He tryed what he could. I told him politely that i wanted to try something different and he was and still is okay with it.. I have respect for him and he has respected my decision. Never would i do him wrong or any other person for that matter. I still call him up to see how he is and he does the same on his end.
Regards
Carolyn

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Phil:

I think i did not explaine myself properly. Sorry.

The Vet that told me to get a new farrier is out of the picture for 1 year.
The farrier that vet told me to use is also out of the picture. My first farrier and I are still Talking to each other. I did not fire him in an unpolite or disrespectfull way nor anything like that. He tryed what he could. I told him politely that i wanted to try something different and he was and still is okay with it.. I have respect for him and he has respected my decision. Never would i do him wrong or any other person for that matter. I still call him up to see how he is and he does the same on his end.
Regards
Carolyn

Thats really nice and how sweet that you two get along so well. Just curious did you pay attention to my comment on trimming and then achieveing proper angle? How about the part about observing movement. See your doing all the things needed, however it is all in the reactive mode, no plan, no logic and too many hands in the kitchen. This is why you are lost. Just trying to help. Take it or leave it.

Regards (that such a nice word isnt it?)

[Horse angle]

Yes Phil I did take your comment and asked a new vet to take a redo the tests..We started with the simple test , walking ect.. I guess when Your horse is sound for so long and everything crashes one more tim you just go nuts and run around like a chicken with no head. 1 1/2 years ago my horse could not even walk so i tend to freak out when he limps. I am taking one thing at a time from now on. I thank you for redirecting my thoughts. instead of reacting we are going forward in a logical way. Sometimes I let the emotions take over and that does more harm than good. 1 thing 1 test at a time. For the Regards well since i can not show all of you how i appreciate all your imputs this is the only way i found to write it. but for me Regards means ( I appreciate and thank-you for taking time for me).


Carolyn

[Phil Armitage]

Glad to hear that Carolyn. Remember to include your farrier. The three of you make the best team for your horse. Also take into consideration how helpfull patience, time off and rest is. Good luck, love your new attitude. :D