Suspensory Degeneration

[Jaye Perry]

Here are a few pics of a horse done today.
Major Vet hospital diagonis of Degeneartive Suspensory Disease. WB, 12 years old. They wanted to leave 'Natural Heel"; I left some;)

I don't have the rads yet but will post when obtained.

Pic is medial RH :

[Jaye Perry]

Pic is lateral RH :

[Jaye Perry]

Medial RH after shoe, foot loaded because pulling down LH

[Jaye Perry]

Close up, medial RH

[Jaye Perry]

Lateral LH

[Jaye Perry]

Caudal view of barshoes

[vthorseshoe]

Jaye what caused the degeneration ?
How does this compare to a coon footed horse ? I know u will say one is degenerating, but is there some sort of similarity ?
Is it in both hinds ? ( I just took a quick look before posting)

[Jaye Perry]

vthorseshoe-what caused the degeneration ?
Genetics and comformation , I guess.


How does this compare to a coon footed horse ? I know u will say one is degenerating, but is there some sort of similarity ?
Both are simular and comformational products.imo.




Is it in both hinds ?
Not as bad, but i have seen the rads on the right hind; lame leg. The origin area of the suspensory show a tearing and healing on the lateral splint head. The rad shows the lateral splint looking like a feather. As soon as I get the rad I'll post it. It looks wild!!:eek:

[vthorseshoe]

Jaye, the hoof wall looks like what I call bull-nosed. Is this caused by the condition (or some other condition)to some extent or is it through trimming, or is it genetic.

I have seen this type of wall through the yrs on a lot of horses when I am at stables. I always figured it was the way the shoers were setting their shoe's back and then dressing the thoe back causing this over time.

Never question anyone before.

[Rick Burten]

Jaye, the hoof wall looks like what I call bull-nosed. Is this caused by the condition (or some other condition)to some extent or is it through trimming, or is it genetic.
Absolutely, I call it bull-nosed too. Horses with this hoof form will, radiographically, show a negative plane coffin bone. Usually this is due to the frog prolapsing. That can be due to a lack of structural integrity in the frog, the frog dropping because it has not been properly supported,(ie: genetics and mechanics) etc.
I have seen this type of wall through the yrs on a lot of horses when I am at stables. I always figured it was the way the shoers were setting their shoe's back and then dressing the thoe back causing this over time.
Years ago, I felt the same way. I have come to realize that the problem is within the horse itself.

I see this hoof form quite often with horses that have also been diagnosed with DSLD/ESPA/ECTD(Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis/Equine Systemic Proteoglycan Ac***ulation/Equine Connective Tissue Disorder). Since we are now learning so much more about this pathology it seems to me that the causes of each may well be related.

It would be interesting to study how many horses who first exhibit prolapsed frogs go on to develop DSLD, and vise versa.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that horses with DSLD, continue to degenerate regardless of the orthotics used. Eventually, these horses are humanely destroyed.

In addition to a support shoe such as Jaye used, I add as much frog support as the horse is comfortable with.

[3wishesdun]

Jaye,
Re: the bull nosed appearance -
In your experience, do you see this more often in horses with suspensory degeneration?
My horse has similar issues and her hinds have the same look.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21609310922.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21609285860.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21609275042.jpg&s=f10

edit- Rick- just saw your reply. Thank you.

[Rick Burten]

In the middle photo, it really looks like there is DSLD going on, but then again, the horse is only weight bearing on the right hind in that photo :confused:

In the other two photos, there is a 'hint' of a convex dorsal hoof wall, but the horse does not seem to be 'classic' for DSLD :confused:

There is definate edema in the tendon sheath above the fetlocks but whether or not that is related to or caused by DSLD, is hard to determine from photos alone. :(
Could you post some photos of the bottom of the feet?

Personally, when I see feet and limbs that look like this, I will stand the horse on a small wedge pad and wait to see how the horse reacts.

[Skinfaxi]

Do these condition(s) also possibly have malnutrition at an early age as a contributer?

["Riddle"]

Vvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[Rick Burten]

If DSLD is suspected or confirmed, then I don't wedge. If the horse only has a bull-nosed hoof form Then I extend the heels of the shoe slightly and absent any reaction to hooftesters over the frog, wedge the foot/feet up, usually with a #3 bar wedge pad. Since the frog on these feet is more likely than not, prolapsed, I don't put the flat side of the pad against the frog, rather I turn the pad over so that the 'cut-out' section is over the frog. This provides support without forcing the issue. If the horse exhibits no positive reaction to hoof testers, I will use one of the new(ish) frog support bar wedge pads.

When I'm dealing with DSLD, I just trim and/or shoe to keep the horse as comfortable as possible.

[Jaye Perry]

vthorseshoe-- the hoof wall looks like what I call bull-nosed. Is this caused by the condition (or some other condition)to some extent or is it through trimming, or is it genetic.
Anytime a horse has an issues behind up the leg, the feet will obtain the configuration. Whether bone or soft tissues.


I have seen this type of wall through the yrs on a lot of horses when I am at stables. I always figured it was the way the shoers were setting their shoe's back and then dressing the thoe back causing this over time.
Never question anyone before
Genetics can play a role, along with shoeing to an extent. Addressing breakover and adding appliances are a bandaid fix IMO. When hind feet take on this shape a diagnosis should be sought.

[3wishesdun]

In the middle photo, it really looks like there is DSLD going on, but then again, the horse is only weight bearing on the right hind in that photo :confused:

In the other two photos, there is a 'hint' of a convex dorsal hoof wall, but the horse does not seem to be 'classic' for DSLD :confused:

There is definate edema in the tendon sheath above the fetlocks but whether or not that is related to or caused by DSLD, is hard to determine from photos alone. :(
Could you post some photos of the bottom of the feet?

Personally, when I see feet and limbs that look like this, I will stand the horse on a small wedge pad and wait to see how the horse reacts.

Rick-
I will take solar pics later today.
I only have this group of photos which focus on her fetlocks, as I took them to email to one of the researchers from the DSLD group.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613441946.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613471122.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613480585.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613485966.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613494859.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613505341.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613512831.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21613520462.jpg&s=f10

[Jaye Perry]

Riddle"-In my experience a horse with a "bull-nosed" hoof capssule has always had lack of support to the limb and/or(usually and) too much heelIf one is just looking to the feet for answers.


Rick, In my experience, use of a wedge when the limb falls behind the hoof has not had positive benefit. I usually add support and modify breakover. Would you please elaborate on your use of wedge and factors of determination. Thank You.
It depends on the leg and the foot. I do another with the same leg conformation but the difference the horse's foot is flat as a pancake. 3 degree wedge and a size bigger shoe keep's her sound.

I'll do her next week when Ms. Diane comes and rides along. I'll take pics and she can retort.

[Jaye Perry]

Rick Burten-.....Years ago, I felt the same way. I have come to realize that the problem is within the horse itself.contributing factors also like workload, fitness and age. Jumping horses are seen with this if they are used on hard ground for extended career periods

..............
It would be interesting to study how many horses who first exhibit prolapsed frogs go on to develop DSLD, and vise versa.
There are in my experiences , ones with and without prolapsed frogs.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that horses with DSLD, continue to degenerate regardless of the orthotics used. Eventually, these horses are humanely destroyedAgreed.

[smitty88]

Jaye i have a mare with this problem
she has a foal at foot

the owner just wants to make her comfortable
my question is lenth wise how long is long enough

or does it matter with the bar shoe?

[Jaye Perry]

smitty88-i have a mare with this problem
she has a foal at foot

In a lot of cases brood mares will assume this conformation, Dr. Rooney explains it well; http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/suspensory/suspensory.htm


the owner just wants to make her comfortable
my question is lenth wise how long is long enough
or does it matter with the bar shoe?

The horse I posted is on stall rest and walking under saddle; 20 minutes. Good length is essiential but turn out enviroment dictates length.
Usually I try to give as much length as needed, the widest part of the shoes is at the 4th nail holes and tapers back , with length, under the fetlock and behind the heels. Almost a diamond shape.

if length is "long", i usually put a slight rocker in the extended heel portion. It goes without saying, but a good roll to the toe portion of the shoe. This protocol usually helps, but there has to be good heel.
If not; wedge, give length and support with Equipak as above.
It has worked for me.

[3wishesdun]

My apologies Jaye- :(
I did not read properly and just noticed this thread is in the Farriers Helping Farriers Section.

Rick-I am going to post the solar shots of her hinds in a new thread in the appropriate place.

[smitty88]

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/fish_2.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/fish_2.JPG/view)
Jaye here is that brood mare i mentioned
is there to much out the back or not
any coments fire ahead anybody

[smitty88]

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/fish__6.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/fish__6.JPG/view)

[SlowShoe]

Smitty,
Was this horse assigned to stall rest while in this package? Even if so, were you called back to reset any pulled shoes for this one?

Nice work as ussual. As a matter of fact I was mentioning your work to a fellow farrier who pulled in behind me at a local show barn. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Jaye Perry]

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/fish_2.JPG (http://s2.supload.com/free/fish_2.JPG/view)
Jaye here is that brood mare i mentioned
is there to much out the back or not
any coments fire ahead anybody
looks fine.

[tbloomer]

I've got three TN Walkin' horses on my books what have the appearance of DSLD, but no medical diagnosis. All 3 horses have excellent feet and good strong frogs. The worst of them is 40 years old and missing all of his teeth. :) His fetlocks drop to abgout 90 degrees - hoof is about 54 deg. I have to lean him against the wall to do his hinds.

The other two are in their mid teens and both are rideable. Both are also IMHO overweight - they resemble quarterhorses more than TN Walkers.

My SWAG (SceintificWildAssedGuess) is that this is a confirmation issue that is relatively common in the TN Wlkr. breed. Anybody else have the same experience?

[smitty88]

Smitty,
Was this horse assigned to stall rest while in this package? Even if so, were you called back to reset any pulled shoes for this one?

Nice work as ussual. As a matter of fact I was mentioning your work to a fellow farrier who pulled in behind me at a local show barn. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Joshthis mare was only done the other day
she has a foal at foot

i think the plan is a small padock for her

[Jaye Perry]

Close up, medial RHhttp://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2889&stc=1


The top picture is of the "Higher Heeled" degenerative suspensory desmitis.

Here is a picture of the "Low Heeled" degenerative suspensory desmitis.

[Andrew Grimm]

I do another with the same leg conformation but the difference the horse's foot is flat as a pancake. 3 degree wedge and a size bigger shoe keep's her sound.

I'll do her next week when Ms. Diane comes and rides along. I'll take pics and she can retort.

Is the picture you just posted the horse you were talking of above?
Wedging a horse with bad suspensory's only puts more tension on the suspensory right? and make the fetlock drop more?


Andrew Grimm

[Andrew Grimm]

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2889&stc=1


The top picture is of the "Higher Heeled" degenerative suspensory desmitis.

Here is a picture of the "Low Heeled" degenerative suspensory desmitis.

Is this the same horse?


Andrew Grimm

[Jaye Perry]

Is this the same horse?


Andrew Grimm

One foot is white and one foot is striped.
The last picture with wedge pads is a gray. The previous pic (link) is a bay.

I was reffering to the heel heights. Some need a wedge and some don't to align the phalanges.

[Andrew Grimm]

One foot is white and one foot is striped.
The last picture with wedge pads is a gray. The previous pic (link) is a bay.

I was reffering to the heel heights. Some need a wedge and some don't to align the phalanges.

Thank you.


Andrew Grimm