navicular advice needed!!

[MonBeauCheval]

I really need advice for my horse. He's currently short on both front and landing toe first. He was doing well for about a month but the he started tripping and then gradually became off again. His frog also tends to get thicker at the toe.Heres pics of his feet a week after they were last done.
Front
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180020.jpg

Left front
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180017.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180013.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Image046.jpg

More...

[MonBeauCheval]

Left Front
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Image031.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Image032.jpg

Right Front
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180019.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180008.jpg

More...

[MonBeauCheval]

Right Front
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180012.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Image052.jpg http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Image033.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/Image034.jpg

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[MonBeauCheval]

Hind feet keep in mind he has shivers
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180014.jpg

Left Hind
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180018.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180016.jpg

More...

[MonBeauCheval]

Right hind
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180015.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/Zella_chan/P7180010.jpg

Ok done

[Kaydence]

MonBeauCheval,

Did you take a look at the www.hopeforsoundness.com website to get an idea of where the heels should be? In your posts on the other site you mention that the farrier wants to get the horse sound before addressing the heels but the heels need to be addressed to offer the best chance of your horse going sound.

Cheri

[Andalucian]

Ditto Kaydence, getting the heel height down is the first thing to help your horse out.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

MonBeauCheval in gray

I really need advice for my horse. He's currently short on both front and landing toe first. He was doing well for about a month but the he started tripping and then gradually became off again. His frog also tends to get thicker at the toe.Heres pics of his feet a week after they were last done.

If your horse's impact phase of stride is toe-down-first, he needs to be examined by a veterinarian in order to diagnose the cause of the aberrant movement. Rads, blocks, flexion, the whole enchilada. After the cause is diagnosed, any competant farrier should be able to trim/shoe the horse according to its particular need.

[Kaydence]

Tom, MonBeauCheval is 16 years old and having trouble with communicating with the vet and farrier. I believe she is trying to learn more here so she can express herself more effectively with them.

Cheri

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Kaydence in gray

MonBeauCheval is 16 years old and having trouble with communicating with the vet and farrier. I believe she is trying to learn more here so she can express herself more effectively with them.

What eloquence beyond, "My horse is crippled!" and the ability to describe symptoms is required for communication with a veterinarian? Any instructions for farriery should be made directly to the farrier by the vet, not through an intermediary.

[calshoer]

Excess heel height (heels grown tall beyond the sole) is a common cause of heel pain and foot dysfunction. When the frog is suspended off the ground the heel bulbs actually sink INWARD when the foot loads, pinching the frog and contracting it (as shown).
Many "navicular syndrome" horses are actually more sore in the soft tissues around the bone and in and horn tissues of the heels than in the actual nacvicular bone.
Trying to raise the hoof angles by leaving more heel on the foot exaerbates these issues. Heel pain from hoof distortion (tall heels) is a CAUSE of improper movement that leads to navicular syndrome. Therefore leaving more heel on the foot to try to treat the syndrome only exaerbates the issue.

The first thing is to get rid of the excess heel . AFTER the heels are reduced to a level close to or at the sole, a full supportive wedge pad can be used to realign the coffin joint (if necessary).
Trimming the heels then wedging the foot back up with a full support pad allows the frog to come into play as part of the load and impact sharing structure it is supposed to be.
As it is now, the frog is suspended off the ground and cannot possibly be doing its part of the load sharing and impact absorbtion.
However the farrier and vet must fully understand this principle and the intracacies of correct application before trying to apply it. There is no one exact formula for every case .Each is different and the they must understand how to find and evaluate the sore vs the strong parts of the foot before applying frog support, how to observe the horses stance and walk during several stages of the shoeing, and how to safelt trim the heels of the foto wiothout gettign the toe too close. Its such a different concept from what they are doing now with your horse that it should not be undertaken without some training in the principles.
Patty

[Kaydence]

Kaydence in gray

MonBeauCheval is 16 years old and having trouble with communicating with the vet and farrier. I believe she is trying to learn more here so she can express herself more effectively with them.

What eloquence beyond, "My horse is crippled!" and the ability to describe symptoms is required for communication with a veterinarian? Any instructions for farriery should be made directly to the farrier by the vet, not through an intermediary.

Well, some owners do want to understand more. Given that she has been working with a vet and a farrier but the results aren't satisfactory, she needs to educate herself further so she can figure out what part of the formula she has to be active in changing. If her farrier isn't giving her a lot of information as to "why" he is shoeing the horse this way, she may sit back for too long, waiting for a miracle.

We all know that not every farrier nor every vet is up on lameness issues and this young lady is making the effort to educate herself (while also making the effort to work with her vet and farrier). While she is getting plenty of "bua" advice on COTH, I hoped she'd be better served by coming here and finding out what questions she should be asking. The information Patty supplied, can help her get there.

I haven't had the time to read through the COTH boards in detail yet (didn't get home til after 10:00pm last night and shower, food and bed were all I had on my mind.), I believe you mentioned your vet recommending an egg bar shoe, MonBeauCheval. Can you elaborate on the details of what your vet and farrier have done and are planning on doing?

From the photos I viewed, I liked the trim on the hind feet. Does anyone have a comment on them? I know she isn't dealing with lameness behind but to me, they show a farrier who can put a nice trim on the foot, and therefore probably is able to help the front feet if he follows similar principles on the fronts.

[MonBeauCheval]

My vet did the flex tests, hoof testers, nerve block, and x rays (showed enlarged vascular channels). I'm sorry I gave the impression my vet wasn't active in my horse's care, but you should have asked rather than assume.
I am just trying to educate myself and insure my horse is getting the best possible care. I never said I had trouble communicating with my vet or farrier but communication can always be improved.

This was the third time this farrier worked on my horse, and the third time my horse has been shod since I've owned him. I have a new farrier coming out this weekend and he has talked with my vet though I don't know all the details.

Kaydence- Inccidently, my horse has lameness issues in back also though it rarely affects his movement. He has shivers so he is very difficult and dangerous to do. That's also why I don't have a solar view of his hind. The only way to pick up his hind feet is to grab it mid shiver and hold on while my horse hops on three legs and wait for the muscle to relax.
This farrier was just trimming him on the stand so that's one of the reasons I'm getting a new farrier who's willing to try to do his whole hoof. I don't feel it would be fair to ask the old farrier to clean up the bottom too and risk his safety even more.

He has been moving a lot better. Maybe the deep sand was causing him trouble. I rode yesterday, he was off for the first few strides of the trot but then he was better and wanting to go.

[calshoer]

His feet are suffering from the abnormally tall heels and long toes. Those heels have go to GO. Then if he needs wedges to aligng the bones internally and achieve a slight heel landing, wedge him but use something that supports the whole back of the foot.The tall heels are a reason why the frogs are so pinched up. You need a farrier who understands the mechanics of proper heel function, beyond hoof angles. And frankly, if your vet really thinks this shoeing is beneficial to your horse, maybe you need another vet. Overloading the end of the heels in the fashion they are loaded now by being left so tall is CAUSING some of his problems.
Patty