Farriers: What IS a pasture trim?

[Chloesmom]

On some of the other boards, I keep reading the about the term, "pasture trim". "SOME" barefooters are insisting that farriers can only give a "pasture trim", and insist that since you don't understand the wild horse model, you therefore can only give a ****py pasture trim.

I don't happen to believe this. I think a ****py farrier gives a ****py trim, and a good farrier gives a good trim. Same holds true for a barefoot trimmer.

I would love to hear your views on what a good barefoot trim is! Also, what do you consider to be a bad trim?

By the way, I really hope this doesn't turn into a Barefoot vs Shoeing debate. I am really interesting in learning from the farriers mouth, what the farrier is doing to keep the barefoot horse sound.

[caballus]

I think a ****py farrier gives a ****py trim, and a good farrier gives a good trim. Same holds true for a barefoot trimmer.

Well, that sorta sums it all up nicely! *grin* What more can be said?

--Gwen

[Phil Armitage]

I have never heard of a pasture trim except from Barefoot sites. I would like to know what it is to.

[George Geist]

Phil,
To the best of my understanding I believe it is referring to a properly done barefoot trim.

When you do a Str***er or more especially a 4 point, well these are a little different. Not much but a little.

They come with a huge load of propaganda but the end result is very similar.

Inventing such words helps them to denigrate the established standard norm of doing things.
George

[Chloesmom]

Ahhhh, come on guys! I'm really interested in this! If there is such a thing as a "pasture" trim, I'm curious as to what it is. But I'm more interested in the particulars of what you strive to do with a trim. Do you roll the walls? Do you trim to a certain angle or trim to the sole? What about heel height? Do you want a flat hoof as though prepared for a shoe? Are you concerned about sole depth? Concavity? Stuff like that!

I know there's lots of different styles out there and personal preferences, I was just wondering if you'd share a few of the things you like to see in a bare hoof?

[Rick Burten]

Ahhhh, come on guys! I'm really interested in this! If there is such a thing as a "pasture" trim, I'm curious as to what it is.
The term 'pasture trim' is used primarily by the BUA crowd to disrespect the work of farriers who are trimming horses to remain barefoot. According to the BUAtistas, the hoof is whacked down willy-nilly, with no attention paid to maintaining the integrity of the hoof, particularly the sole. The sole is trimmed flat, no concavity maintained and no attention is paid to maintaining or establishing proper breakover and heel support. You get the picture.
But I'm more interested in the particulars of what you strive to do with a trim. Do you roll the walls?
Yes. Its not wise or prudent to leave sharp leading edges.
Do you trim to a certain angle or trim to the sole?
I trim according to what each foot indicates/dictates. There is no one angle for every hoof and sole integrity is maintained as a matter of both necessity and course. Excess dead sole that is ready to exfoliate is removed.
What about heel height?
Depends on the horse. His feet, so he sets the bar.
Do you want a flat hoof as though prepared for a shoe?
Something you and everyone else who has this misconception about preping a hoof for shoeing should know is that the only part of the hoof a farrier wants flat and level in a correct for that horse plane, is that portion of the wall and perhaps 1/8th inch of sole contiguous with the inner edge of the white line. The myth that farriers try to flatten the entire hoof from side to side, across the sole, is spun by those who have neither the knowledge or skill to properly apply orthotics. It makes a great talking point for the BUA, but it is just more propoganda when the BUAtistas make that non-statement.
Are you concerned about sole depth? Concavity? Stuff like that!

Absolutely and positively. Along with heel location and proper location of breakover. And A/P and M/L balance. We also concern ourselves with any hoof pathology we find.

We strive to have the hoof be as correctly bio-mechanically functional as is practical and pragmatic.

We don't try to create artificial concavity, we don't trim to blood, we don't ascribe to filling any arbitrary or pre-determined(or in one BUAtista's case, mandated) hoof lengths or angles.

[Chloesmom]

Yes, "pasture trim" is used in a disrespectful manner, but it's used so often, I just had to ask if there is such a thing, and if so, what is it?

Something you and everyone else who has this misconception...
I don't have any misconceptions! That's why I'm asking. I had a wonderful farrier who kept all my horses barefoot and sound. I moved out of state before ever hearing about Ramey or Jackson or the "barefoot" trim. I wish I could go back in time and look at the hoof after one of my farriers trims. I wish I had known more so that I could pick his brain better. Since I can't, I thought I would pick yours!

Do you want a flat hoof as though prepared for a shoe?

Sorry, I meant "flat wall"; didn't mean the whole sole!

So then, DO you trim a barefoot with a flat wall, or do you follow the sole which would result in scooped quarters?

[Rick Burten]

So then, DO you trim a barefoot with a flat wall, or do you follow the sole which would result in scooped quarters?
Generally speaking, I relieve the quarters slightly. And, as I indicated, I put a radius on the outer hoof wall so that there are no sharp edges. If breakover needs to be more aggressively addressed, then that is what I do.

[hfournier]

In the early 1980s, when my farrier Sammy trimmed my horse, he removed the flare, trimmed the heels back and rolled the edges. The first time he worked on my horse as a yearling, he told me he had very nice feet and probably wouldn't need shoes. For the most part, he was right.

I'm sure Sammy never read a book about "natural trimming" and he didn't call it "pasture trimming," just "trimming." I think Jaime Jackson had just started his wild horse research about then.

Last year, the farrier I was using trimmed the horses by just lopping off wall, leveling it a bit with the rasp, and leaving the sharp edges and flare. He metioned something about how he had given up on fighting the flare because it always came back.

I fired him and got a good farrier, who does a great job trimming and shoeing.

Last night I was thumbing through prints and contact sheets of my old farrier's work. I used to love to watch Sammy shoe horses, and I spent a few days following him and photographing him at different barns. His hooves were nicely balanced, no flare or long toes, no contracted or underrun heels.

I wonder why I never see photos like these in any of the "natural hoof care" books?


Holly

[Nor'easter]

Last night I was thumbing through prints and contact sheets of my old farrier's work. I used to love to watch Sammy shoe horses, and I spent a few days following him and photographing him at different barns. His hooves were nicely balanced, no flare or long toes, no contracted or underrun heels.

I wonder why I never see photos like these in any of the "natural hoof care" books?


Holly


Simple really;

-the modus operandii here is to denigrate farriers to the point that the horse owning community goes running to the barefoot trimmers to save their horses.

-the truly sad part for many who switch is that now their horses are at the hands of inexperienced folks with just enough knowledge and tools to be quite dangerous. As an added insult, they (the BUA) leave the horses and owners with no options other than to remain barefoot and suffer when it doesn't work out.

(or heaven forfend, go back to the neaderthal farrier)

-caveat emptor.

[David Hayne]

Good day,

Before machinery took over the farms and forest industry horses where the main source of power. Horses working 6 to 8 hours where shod for two main reasons...traction and protection.

Our team of horses worked all winter pulling logs to road side and then spread manure in the spring.....after the haying was done between June and August the horses where given a two month rest and turned out to the cut hay field which was now called the " Pasture "or pasture land.

Since horse shoes cost money the shoes where removed and the hooves where trimmed to prepare them for their vacation to the pasture....a lost horse shoe in a 20 acre field can be difficult to find ......and if you couldn't find the lost shoe...it was almost for certain that the mowing machine would find it and cause damage to the machine.

In 1960 I first heard my Uncle say " Time to give the horses their " Pasture Trim"....their going on vacation. With time out on the pasture grass the horses would get fatten up and then back to work..

Of course their where a couple of older broad mares who never did work anymore and my Uncle would say ..." One day their going to " put me out to pasture " like them there mares.

So if a Pasture Trim is being used in a negative sense then I suggest perhaps that these common people saying this ....have none.

David

[Bill Adams]

If the horse is going to pasture then I do a pasture trim. If it's going to be running on the beach then I do a running on the beach trim. There are also the standing in a stall only let out for an hour in an arena trim, the won't have time to ride him for a while trim, can't afford to put shoes on this time trim,etc.
They all look the same and they all look different than they did a few years ago and those were different than the trims a few years before that. I've been influnenced by 4 Point, NB, UST, Ducket, clinics, local Farriers, clients, and several thousand close relationships with horses.
As I am photo postingly chalanged, I will proudly claim that my trimming looks like Gwen's fine work in the picture on her posts.
Bill

[calshoer]

In my very early days out on my own as a green farrier, I got a new client who asked me to pull shoes and trim her 3 horses. No other instructions that that Ididnt even think to question what she had planned for the horses.
Remembering my farier school instructors admonitions about to not ever trimming too much off the hoof at the same time the shoes were pulled to go barefoot ,I did just that...I left them a bit long and just rounded the edges real well. Then (unbenownst to me) later that day the owner takes these three out on a five hour trail ride. Barefoot. Same day as having the shoes pulled, in the middle of summer.
I get this phone call early the next morning that I had crippled all three of her darlings and damn it I was upposed to have done a RIDING trim, not a pasture trim. Dang . I hadn't even known there was a difference. :eek:
Patty

[Talkingshell]

I left them a bit long and just rounded the edges real well. Then (unbenownst to me) later that day the owner takes these three out on a five hour trail ride. Barefoot. Same day as having the shoes pulled, in the middle of summer.
I get this phone call early the next morning that I had crippled all three of her darlings and damn it I was upposed to have done a RIDING trim, not a pasture trim. Dang . I hadn't even known there was a difference. :eek:
Patty

Well that person who rode her horses after having the shoes pulled off and trimmed then rode them on the same day is bloody i*iot!! It wouldn't be you that causing the cripple all of her three horses! Again I say what an i*iot she is.....too ****** and take the blame on you, what a joke!

[e decker]

I think these are some good pictures of a foot that would hold up well in the field.


http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2103383985

[matryoshka]

I think the idea of a "pasture trim" comes more from poor work by farriers than from good trims by good farriers. I have seen farriers trim a horse, then rasp the edges flat as if they were going to apply a shoe, then say the horse was done. Sometimes this includes scooping out sole or rasping the edges of the sole flat, too. No flares get addressed, no bevel put on the wall. This is not a good trim for a barefoot horse, no matter who does it. I believe the idea is that some farriers don't do a careful trim when the horse is going to stay barefoot.

This should not be confused with a good farrier doing careful work. Unfortunately, everybody seems to know of a few farriers who do not do good work. They wouldn't be good barefooters, either. People see these trims and think that that is all farriers know how to do. It is a mistake to think this. I was just reading in a book that says it only takes 2 to 3 experiences for people to make generalizations. So if somebody sees 2 or 3 bad trims by a farrier, they'll start to generalize that all farriers do trims like that. It is simply not true, but it is human nature to generalize.

I've seen the work by two different barefoot specialists in the area, and I wasn't impressed by either. One could then generalize that barefooters don't know how to do a proper trim. It simply isn't the case. I wouldn't hire either of these people to work on my horses, though, and I wouldn't recommend them to anybody. I know several farriers who do much better trims.

Okay, enough babble. Here's my definition: "Pasture trim: poor trimming done by a farrier; trimming performed by a farrier without adding a bevel or addressing flares." Basically, poor work. It's just too bad that this gets associated with farriers in general rather than being recognized as a poor trim job, regardless of who applies it.

My $0.02