Economic Question for Cordell Rogers [Archive] - The Farrier & Hoofcare Resource Center Forums

George Geist

07-28-2006, 08:57 PM

"Riddle"

07-28-2006, 10:08 PM

Sorry George for the "smart" reply.

cordell_rogers

07-29-2006, 01:09 AM

First of all, I am just an accountant - I am not an authority on economics.

To answer your question: I stand by what I said - it's a reasonable belief that another person's success doesn't negatively impact me.

Even though some oil executives enjoyed record years in 2004 & 2005, so did I and everyone I work with. I believe that we all enjoyed an incredibly strong economy and prospered together. If you had a tough year - it's either bad luck or bad management.

In regards to the big comp package of the oil exec - I wouldn't want to put a limit or cap on what someone else can earn just like I don't want to have a limit put on my earnings. It makes me smile to think that it's possible for any of us to have a great year and make $50 million. Why is it bad that he made a lot of money?

It is up to the owners and BODs of all companies to determine the compensation packages for their employees. If you want to make that much, do something about it. Convince the owner of your company that you are worth it. If you're not worth it, improve your skills so that you are.

How much did you tip your last waiter? If you tipped him less than $10,000, then you wasted a great opportunity to practice 'wealth redistribution' - which seems to be what you are advocating. I like my personal property rights and want to preserve them. If my waiter gives me service that's worth $10k to me, I'd pay him. So far, it hasn't happened.

Are you a socialist? Obviously, I lean a little more towards the libertarian point of view.

wwhite1973

07-29-2006, 08:05 AM

To answer your question: I stand by what I said - it's a reasonable belief that another person's success doesn't negatively impact me.

So Mr. Rogers, Sam Walton's success, with his Wal-Mart stores didn't have a negative impact on the success of the Mom and Pop operations in the areas they went in to? In the area I live in, a lot of those Mom and Pop operations are history since Wal-Mart came into the area. Maybe I am ******, but that seems like a pretty negative impact to me.
Wayne

George Geist

07-29-2006, 10:17 AM

Cordell,
I think it kind of funny that the knee jerk reaction is to throw labels around, I really would have more expected that from Tom Bloomer.

When I was in high school people called me a fascist. When I was in college they called me a right wing conservative, Now after a few more years and having been a sole proprietor for most of my life I'm thought of as a socialist.

Wonder how it was that I skipped over being a liberal? Has the political center in this country shifted that much? I know I'm still me and always will be.

In respnonse to your question yes, if I was of the means to tip a waitress $10,000 I certainly would. Many of these CEOs easily could but you dont see it happening do you?

Getting back to the point. I am NOT for any wealth redistribution scheme. On that we are in agreement. Problem is I do see a wealth redistribution going on here but it is from the bottom up.

These people are not capitalists at all but are monopolists. They are predatory and parasitic. Their unbridled greed has had an adverse effect on every one of our bottom lines.

For struggling horseshoers out there it might mean the difference between staying in business or not. Worst part of it is that their greed most adversely effects the people in this country who can least afford it.

So next time we all fill up we can "smile" that its possible that a CEO can make such a vast personal fortune off of the backs of everyone else I suppose.
George

Skinfaxi

07-29-2006, 10:25 AM

cordell_rogers

07-29-2006, 12:17 PM

I think it kind of funny that the knee jerk reaction is to throw labels around.here's your labels:
These people are not capitalists at all but are monopolists. They are predatory and parasitic.
In respnonse to your question yes, if I was of the means to tip a waitress $10,000 I certainly would.
You don't have $10k? Give it away if that's what you believe. I think that giving a person something for nothing corrupts the recipient. It makes them a dole who doesn't value work.

I like for people to have the freedom to gain whatever they can through luck, hard work, and whatever other ethical means they may employ. However, for those that have a lot - a lot is expected of them.

Like St. Luke said, where much is given, much is required. Here's one of my favorite scriptures:

And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

Skinfaxi

07-29-2006, 12:23 PM

I can tell when a for profit company is fleecing the public. Ethical? prove that they are ethical. They do need all that money, I'm sure. To buy votes.

The solution is more competition or gov't management.

George Geist

07-29-2006, 02:48 PM

Cordell,
We are again in agreement. I too do not believe people should be given something for nothing. That includes $14.5 billion in tax breaks for one of the wealthiest companies in the world.

If the government had that much money to dole out it rightfully should have gone to the legitimate owners of it. The people. Now we can see that their greed is in fact ruining the economy. http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0..1832845,00,html This link will also show a sharp decline in housing starts due to a lack of buyers. This WILL affect you personally Cordell.

Incidentally a lot more interesting facts of various kinds can be found at www.whatreallyhappened.com

I'm glad to see you're a religious man. Being that way myself I too have some favorite verses also:

The poor is hated even of his own neighbor, but the rich has many friends
Proverbs 14:20

Pride goeth before a destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall
Better it is to be of a humble spirit before the lowly than to divide the spoil with the proud
Proverbs 16:18-19

Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox when he treadeth out the corn
Deuteronomy 25:4 & 1 Corinthians 9-9

Finally this can best be summed up in the tale told by our Lord in St Luke 18:22-24, In which he concluded by saying it was far easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.

Now, as to unproductive, parasitic, useless drones, would anybody like to talk about insurance companies?

Their profits are in the billions ever year and they have never once ever been audited. They have the tallest buildings in every town.

You say that a lot is expected of those who have a lot. Perhaps so. I would think not harming a countries people or economy in their pursuit of profits wouldn't be much to ask of them. They cant even deliver on that though.

With the loosening of contols on banks we also see them running roughshod over people. How many of us are living in debt and working for the most part for them? (Check Deuteronomy 19 concerning the issue of usury)

Putting their names on new sports stadiums everywhere doesn't make up for that.

Through a masterful campaign of media and political disinformation, these institutions pick the pockets of working people every day and yet have everyone convinced that the poor among us are to blame.

It always has been and always will be the middle and working classes that are presented with the country's bills to pay.

I too was in favor of welfare reform. Problem is it was a sham. 10 years later I still see no significant tax relief from it. Do you?

Now, how exactly do these thing Not affect you?
George

tbloomer

07-29-2006, 03:13 PM

Cordell,
I think it kind of funny that the knee jerk reaction is to throw labels around, I really would have more expected that from Tom Bloomer.
George

Socialism is not a label. It's a disease.

Franky Lundist

07-29-2006, 03:15 PM

I dont really want to get dragged down in thei debate however I see one post here that I feel I need to make a comment on, which is as follows(skinfaxi The solution is more competition or gov't management.)

Government management is not the answer, unless you want too spend your days eating grass like the starving north koreans do.
__________________

tbloomer

07-29-2006, 03:38 PM

I'm with you George and Wayne. Where is the accountability. Show me where it "trickles down" to anyone outside the company or shareholders.

About Wal-mart. I can give an eye witness testimony. 2 years ago they replaced the small walmart in our town of approx. 11,000 people. When it came in everyone was either elated or pensive. When it opened the prices were very low on some surprising things(btw I wasn't buying anything!) Then one small shop closed. Then another. The mom and pop places were not charging very much more for most things(I'm talking a dime tops). In total 11 small shops closed in town. After a year of being open Walmart slowly raised its a good portion of its prices to just a penny or two under what the small shops had been selling at.

I've watched this happen twice now. It is....sad. I think that management of oil prices would be fair. I don't have to shop at walmart. I do HAVE to feed my vehicle. They are obviously gouging the public and after the congressional "investigation" they have practically been given the green flag. There are laws to help the situation. Teddy Roosevelt would be doing something! It is not bad to make alot of money. It is bad to make alot of money deliberately at the expense of the well being of the people in an entire nation.I think if enough people could agree(lol) and picked three days to boycott gas someone would listen to that.

Biodiesel is where I lay my hopes. As long as production meets demand, so that prices will drop. It is funny that it runs about the same price as gasoline...

In truth, as far as walmart goes, our desicions are in our own hands. I do NOT give walmart my money. No one else has too either.

Have you ever wondered how many mom'n'pop book stores were put out of business by amazon.com? I worked in the information technology industry through the evolution of the Internet and eCommerce. There were literelly thousands of businesses that were destroyed by their own failure to keep up with business technology. Would you blame the Internet and those who capitalized on eCommerce for causing the failures of all those businesses?

You are also missing a huge part of the big picture of the demographics in this country. Urban sprawl, population shift, etc. When an area is rapidly growing in population, companies like Walmart do their homework. When the demographic trend supports a new store, Walmart builds one. Mom'n'pop can't keep up with the population explosion - they were'nt paying attention. They went out of business because they could no longer supply the demands of the community. If they had paid attention to the community, they may have looked into expansion, diversification, relocation, or finding a different line of work all together.

One of the reasons I got out of information technology was because the job market was being saturated by network engineers. When there's a Cisco/Microsoft/SANS certification school on every street corner it doesn't take long before the job market is flooded with people thing that they are going to make $70k/yr as a network engineer. Ten years ago I was billing out as a consultant at $135/hr. That same job now pays $25/hr.

I saw it comming and got out. Funny thing. Most of the network engineers out there still can't do half of what I have forgotten in the last 6 years. Yet, I'm only worth half of what I was paid 10 years ago as a senior network analyst. I actually make more money shoeing horses than I can make in IT.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who looses their job in this country. There's just way too much opportunity out there. Like it or not our economy is a global thing. You can complain or take advantage.

Rick Burten

07-29-2006, 05:06 PM

One of the reasons I got out of information technology was because the job market was being saturated by network engineers.

We see much the same thing happening in our profession/industry. Each year new farriers are churned out and enter the field. Each year, many leave the profession because they couldn't make it? Should we feel sorry for them? Should we each turn over a portion of our business to them? Should we be envious of the ones who are successful?

And I think Tom is right when he says we are in a global economy. If we're going to rail against Wal-Mart, then we should be railing against any company that ain't a mom 'n pop organization. How about all the fast food franchises? ad naseum.

Skinfaxi

07-29-2006, 08:36 PM

(skinfaxi The solution is more competition or gov't management.)

Government management is not the answer, unless you want too spend your days eating gr*** like the starving north koreans do.

I would agree with you if the Fed was acting in a fashion that it was ever ment too. I say this in regard to oil companies only, because as long as the well being of the nation depends on it to survive it is no longer just a busness managemnt issue in the eyes of the gov't.

They are dipping deep simply because they can, they could shut down with nearly as much imputince. OH, wait. I think the govt would have something to say about that. They would be aided with tax moneyas much as the big airline companies. The line is already blurred and has been for a long while. That won't change, because a not so subtle slight of hand is going on. "Look over here at this cheap comfort so you won't notice us stealing state power/tax money...ect" No one is going to organize, and protect themselves. If the govt and people of this country want to be semi-socialist(the way it seems they do), then this would be a public welfare issue, not a buisness one. Personaly, I'm not socialist, but I don't see any changes coming and I'm tired of being robbed at the gas pump.

Originally Posted by tbloomer
One of the reasons I got out of information technology was because the job market was being saturated by network engineers.

We see much the same thing happening in our profession/industry. Each year new farriers are churned out and enter the field. Each year, many leave the profession because they couldn't make it? Should we feel sorry for them? Should we each turn over a portion of our business to them? Should we be envious of the ones who are successful?

And I think Tom is right when he says we are in a global economy. If we're going to rail against Wal-Mart, then we should be railing against any company that ain't a mom 'n pop organization. How about all the fast food franchises? ad naseum.

Farriery is not a necessity for a countrys function at the moment. Though it may be soon, :D. Every field has those who try and fail. How does this apply to a profit margin higher that it has ever been along with higher prices than there has been, continuting for the forseeable future? That is called gouging. The govt prevented the gas Stations from doing it. Why is it ok for the oil companies? They are taking advantage. I still play fair, even if it is not popular. I'm not envious at all, and have no use for 600+ million dollars. I just want .75 per gallon.

I did say, that noone has to shop at walmart. We do Have to use gas. I'm not railing against Walmart, more like depressed that the independent sense of comunity and pride is exchanged for crimerate stats and a bigger car. They are effective yes. They have every right to put up stores. They do Hurt small towns. I explained the throat cutting already. I have heard such complaining about throat cutting farriers. How is this different? That didn't stop the town from shopping there. Nothing for it though.

I recognize the developing world market. I understand(I think) why we involve ourself in mid/far-east affairs, but effectively ignore Africa's constant fighting. I know that every country can be profitable, and we want our finger to westernize every pie in due time. I know why jobs leave the US and I understand that this happens for a reason, and some magical day it should stabilize. Just not in my lifetime.

I have come reluctantly to terms with the fact, that the Fed behaves like an all knowing, all seeing, semi-capitalist god out to convert the planet. It's eye is never on it's people, but it's hand is. Every year they nip alittle more control from the states/local govt. Convince the public it's ok. It's for "your own good, just go buy a HD TV/SUV/BigMac." I'm not a socialist, but I live in a semi-socialist country that is always right. Talk about a rock and a hard place. I hope for a revision of Capitol Hill every day.

I have been called a facist/revolutionary/dissenter/socialist and insane among many other more colorful words and phrases. I'm a constituionalist/idealist so who's not really thinking any change for the good is coming(who works for minwage in IL(6.50) That equals minus expenses, 2-3 trims at $35, a day, roughly. After taxes.) I like labels because they help you identify things/ideas. It's a hot topic for me. To prevent myself from going on and on about this, because I would , I'm saying nothing more as I have said my peice....probably. :cool:

Dave Purves

07-29-2006, 09:35 PM

Cordell,
I put this up here in politics thinking it the most appropriate place for it and it is my hope that it can be kept on the up and up and not degenerate into an ad hominum p***ing contest like the last thread did.

Amidst all the fun we were having down there I noticed you said something on page 22 #330 to be exact. I really should let it go but you understand if I did that I just wouldn't be me.

You said "someone else's success does not mean I will be less successful"

Sounds good but let me explain something to you. As of yesterday, (July 27) ExxonMobil announced that they had raked in 10.36 Billion in the second quarter. This is the second largest quarterly profit ever recorded by a publicly traded company in the US.

You forgot the part where the place over half of that "profit" back into research.

Conoco Phillips profits are up 65% from last year and BPs profits rose 30% over last year.

My profits are up over 60% from last year, perhaps I owe you some money since you can't make any more, I should give you some of my profits.

There are a few things to consider here. A lot of you guys will see this as good. You'll say a rising tide lifts all boats. Not necessarily.

It depends on how well you can sail in the big ocean of business. Good sailors (businessmen/women) will make the most of any situation.

One year ago Congress finalized the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which lavished $14.5 billion in tax breaks on energy firms, nearly 60% of which went to oil, gas, coal, nuclear etc.

Oil, gas, coal, nuclear, there isn't much else that constitutes "energy firms".

A year ago gasoline prices averaged $2.14 a gallon. Now they average $3.00.

A year ago I was charging $90 for 4 shoes, now I'm charging $175. What's your point?

It was also said that the war would pay for itself with cheap oil but I wont even go there.

I guess we'll have to see what happens when the war ends before we jump to conclusions.

This brings me to the point of this, Exxon Mobil CEO Lee Raymond leads all CEOs in all US Industries when it comes to retirement. He stands to collect more than $8 million a year. In fact according to the NY Times he raked in more than $686 million from 1993 to 2005. This translates to $144,573 for each day he headed the company.

Sweet, that gives me a goal to strive for.

Some of you guys also think this is good. The old "trickle down" theory right?
Sorry wrong again.

What trickle down theary? It's his money, he earned it. He didn't just decide to give himself that money. There is a BOD that he answers to. Not to mention the stock holders.

Of all the biggest US companies, Exxon Mobil has the biggest funding deficit in it's employee pension. According to Business Week, their ***ets are 11.2 Billion short of it's projected obligations. Also according to company figures as of Dec 31, Exxon Mobil had $27 billion in its coffers which could write a check for its underfunding this afternoon. Meanwhile CEO Raymond's total compensation package was just short of $49 million.

I guess if the workers for Exxon Mobil are feeling cheated they should quit and work for someone else. Sometimes companies will show "funding deficites" for different things for many reasons.

Here's the grand finale of this diatribe.

Drum roll please............................................

For the past 10 years there has been no increase in the minimum wage at the federal level. Therefore, if a minimum wage worker needs gas to get to work, a $60 fillup translates to more than 11.5 hours of work at the $5.15hr minimum wage. All this with no retirement package.

Get over yourself Goerge, minimum wage is for high school kids making a little extra cash. If you're a grown man or woman trying to support yourself or a family on minimum wage you messed up big time somewhere along the way. Besides, how many jobs are out there that actually pay minimum wage? You can't get someone to bail hay for less than $10/hour. McDonalds which should be the home of the Big Mac and Minimum Wage pays thier part time employees more than that. My friends son just started at McDonalds and started out at $7.50 and he's 16 y.o.

With these facts will you still stand on the statement you made before?

I'll stand right beside him. At what point do you expect people to be accountable and resposible for themselves? At what point do you say, if you don't like the money you make, you don't like your benefits, or your working conditions or the hours you work, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Why is it up to our government to make sure your life is as good as you think it should be?

Ok fire away guys,
George

Guns have fired and started re-loading

Dave

Jaye Perry

07-29-2006, 09:53 PM

...............
Guns have fired and started re-loading
DaveQuote:
Ok fire away guys,
George

GEORGE CAN'T EVEN STATE HIS OWN BUSINESS STRATEGY!
Why would anybodywant to parlay with George. One of my favorite business books is "Never Wrestle with a Pig".

Phil Armitage

07-29-2006, 09:57 PM

Guys I went to Wal Mart this evening and bought a pair of wrangler pants and two wrangler collard polo shirts. Going to look pretty spiffy Monday for real cheap. :p

I have to add this, I also bought a new 35 horse Branson Tractor with a bucket. Look up Branson, made in South Korea, price is right and the qaulity is excellent. Signs of the times boys and girls, want to compete then you have to do things to be a competitor.

I traded in a Kabota. Try to purchase a 35 horse power Deere or Kabota these days. Way over priced and the qaulity is not better. I can do all the maintenance, use whatever lube or filters I want and it is a work horse.

Dave Purves

07-30-2006, 12:13 AM

I almost forgot about big bad Wally World. And all of the poor Ma and Pop shops they've put out of business because Wally World puts a gun to your head and forces you to shop thier instead of at the smaller stores.

Oh wait a minute, you want the government to control gas prices and make them cheaper, but when Wally World offers cheaper prices it's bad because the workers don't have insurance and the Ma and Pop stores shut down because you just can't control yourself you want a good deal too. Maybe if the government controled the gas prices and cut them in half, you could afford to pay a little more and shop at the mom and pop stores.

If you don't like Wal Mart don't shop there. The only problem I have with Wal Mart is the usage of Eminent Domain, and that isn't really Wally Worlds fault it's the local and state governments fault for abusing the law and letting increased tax revenue count towards "the public good".

accountability and resposibility are what seperate us from monkeys.

Dave

George Geist

07-30-2006, 12:24 AM

Dave,
You don't like eminent domain?

Good, finally we're getting somewhere.

Can you then admit that a Wal Mart, or a housing development, or a strip mall or any other obscene and unsightly sign of so-called "progress" built in somebody's horse pasture, DOES affect you personally?
George

Dave Purves

07-30-2006, 12:31 AM

It only affects me personally if they develop it in my pasture which I was not willing to sell on my own accord.

Dave

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 04:10 AM

The only problem I have with Wal Mart is the usage of Eminent Domain, and that isn't really Wally Worlds fault it's the local and state governments fault for abusing the law and letting increased tax revenue count towards "the public good".

No it is our Supreme Courts fault for corrupting our 5th Amendment to fit a lobbyists desires.

It only affects me personally if they develop it in my pasture which I was not willing to sell on my own accord.

So you don't mind waiting until the tanks are in your back yard? Correcting the problems in this country require some unity with your neighbor. You can say "it's not going to happen to me"...until it does, but then its too late.

*Goes to get her guns*

tbloomer

07-30-2006, 06:59 AM

"Never Wrestle with a Pig".
I like this analogy; "Never teach a pig to sing. Because the pig will never sing very well, and it annoys the pig."

Phil Armitage

07-30-2006, 07:00 AM

Hey don't let this Ma and Pop BS storys mislead you. A lot of property, homes and farms and small buisnesses are sold by Ma and Pop as a retirement plan. When they first purchased there property, home and farm long long ago that was the long term plan. Happens all the time up here in Maine, even had that told to me by a Ma and Pop. See many of these ole timers they don't have and IRA, Stocks or retirement from employers. What are they going to do say no to a huge offer from Wal-Mart or any other large corporation or developer. Just the way the cookie crumbles. If people were interested in farming they would have stayed home to help run the farm.

George Geist

07-30-2006, 08:39 AM

Regardless of individual motivations to sell, Sarah is right about what has happened with imminent domain.

It used to be a condemnation proceeding used by government most often to build roads and such.

It has only recently been given to private land developers in order that they can obtain other people's land to fuel their insatiable greed.(see Exodus 20:17)

I believe this decision will go down in history as one of the worst travesties the court ever ruled. It will be right up there with Plessy vs Ferguson, Dred Scott vs Maryland etc.

Needless to say, all these examples conclusively prove Cordell's simplistic statement to be false.
George

Rick Burten

07-30-2006, 08:58 AM

George,

I agree that the latest corruption of the concept of eminent domain is really bad. Building a road, library, school, etc is one thing. Taking someone's home so some developer can get rich and line some politico's pockets is quite another.

That the Supreme Court has turned a blind eye to this speaks volumes to me about how far astray this country has gone.

tbloomer

07-30-2006, 09:16 AM

Rick Burten

07-30-2006, 09:54 AM

In my mind I am hearing the theme song from the "Twilight Zone" . . .
Are you sure its not the theme song from "Outer Limits"? :D "Lost in Space"?:D

Most of the time, what I hear is the theme song from "Have Gun Will Travel" :eek: :)

Rick Burten

07-30-2006, 10:26 AM

I found the following to somehow be appropriate. Hope you enjoy :)

Chief, Buffalo & Coffee

An Indian walks into a cafe with a shotgun in one hand leading a male
buffalo with the other. He says to the waiter,"Want coffee."

The waiter says, "Sure, chief, coming right up." He gets the Indian a tall
mug of coffee.

The Indian drinks the coffee down in one gulp, turns and blasts the buffalo
with the shotgun, causing parts of the animal to splatter everywhere, then
just walks out.

The next morning the Indian returns. He has his shotgun in one hand, pulling
another male buffalo with the other. He walks up to the counter and says to
the waiter, "Want coffee."

The waiter says,"Whoa, Tonto! We're still cleaning up your mess from
yesterday. What was all that about, anyway?"

The Indian smiles and proudly says, "Training for upper management position
in United States Government: Come in, drink coffee, shoot bull, leave mess
for others to clean up, disappear for rest of day."

cordell_rogers

07-30-2006, 10:36 AM

Needless to say, all these examples conclusively prove Cordell's simplistic statement to be false.
Q.E.D. is not achieved by the examples cited. The success of one person is not what negatively impacts the success of others. The cause/effect relationships in the examples given are not definitive.

Economics is non-zero sum. For an interesting discussion on that principle, refer to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum#Economics_and_non-zero-sum

On a side-note, I would say that the principle I paraphrased is more profound than simplistic - it was just succinct.

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 10:54 AM

I found the following to somehow be appropriate. Hope you enjoy

Chief, Buffalo & Coffee

Yeah, lol. That is good. :D

Well there you have it. George is quoting the bible in order to substantiate his recall of recent events. In my mind I am hearing the theme song from the "Twilight Zone"

Others quote the bible...this is a silly aside I think.

Isn't it possible that all the problems are not economic, but socio-economic. When you leave the people out(except how they effect the bottom line directly) and only examine the bottom line, what is important gets skewed and the public gets screwed. This has become not even desireable, but Expected. At this point in history, it has been happening for so long that the foolinsh humans are happy to relinquish thier rights just to get fair play, and now even the gov't (for the people, by the people) is screwing them(surprise)...without vaseline even.:D What to do....what to do....

*goes and gets more guns and a few friends*

George Geist

07-30-2006, 12:15 PM

Cordell,
I understand what your saying about zero-sum games. Talk radio tends to harp on it excessively whenever something occurs which sticks it to the middle cl***.

The proper thing to do would be to get rid of the federal reserve system and return to a legal, constitutional, form of currency. Youll hear nobody from either side of the political spectrum say that either though will you?

Aside from that, I can tell you what I remember from the first gulf war. When we were attacking Kuwait. The oil companies tried the same thing. Senate leader at the time Bob Dole stood up on the floor of the senate and said that there was going to be an investigation launched immediately.

He said that if there was any evidence of price gouging that they were just begging for some kind of a windfall profits tax to be laid on them.

What did they do? Immediately rolled back prices. That didnt happen this time so now the ripple effects are starting to come home. On todays AOL news one can see the increase in foreclosures on people's homes in the second quarter. All of this is because of price gouging by oil companies just because they can.

It was revealed in trial that the Enron crooks manufactured the California blackouts. Again to gouge prices in order to enrich the CEOs. I also agree with the NY Post in that when Ken Lay died I hope somebody checked the box to make sure he was in it.

If me or you or any of us fail at something we do, it really doesn't matter. We can do something else and no harm is done. When CEOs run a company into the ground or destroy it like a corporate raider for personal gain it often effects much more than their company.

Often times a whole city or state economy is threatened or in the case of big oil, insurance, and banking among others, it can ruin the economy of an entire country.

This I see as a threat to national security and should be treated as such.
In 1974 when oil companies anchored their ships offshore refusing to come in until the price went up they caused us all to sit in line for hours. How many of you remember that?

Proper thing to do would have been to send the Navy out to escort them in. The American people should never have been held hostage like that by one private enterprise.

Presidents Nixon and Carter's ineptitude in those matters was unforgivable.

All of these things clearly show how all of us lost a lot of money to someone elses gaining it. After we all fill up we have much less in our pockets than we did before. As evidenced by the oil companies executive salaries perhaps we should all just hand it to them directly as it seems that is whats happening anyway.

Another thing that is a good read for those who like history is The History of Standard Oil by Ida Tarbell http://www.history.rochester.edu/fuels/tarbell/MAIN.HTM.

George

Dave Purves

07-30-2006, 03:12 PM

This I see as a threat to national security and should be treated as such.
In 1974 when oil companies anchored their ships offshore refusing to come in until the price went up they caused us all to sit in line for hours. How many of you remember that?

This doesn't sound like anything much different than Union's going on strike for more pay or better benefits.

If you want gas prices to go down, convince your friends and family to stop buying so much of it. You can go on strike against gasoline if you want to. You may suffer for it for a little while, but the price will go down as the supply goes up cause no one is buying it. You want the government to teach big oil a lesson, when it's really the consumers job to do so.

You say people are being forclosed on cause gas prices are too high, can you prove this statement? Can you prove that the sole reason these people lost their home was the price of gas?

Dave

George Geist

07-30-2006, 03:15 PM

Dave,
Just did in the last 3 pages, refer to previous posts.
George

Dave Purves

07-30-2006, 03:23 PM

Nowhere in your previous posts did you site facts or give specific instances on how gasoline prices were the reason anyone one specific lost their home.

If you did please point me to that particular post.

Dave

cordell_rogers

07-30-2006, 04:32 PM

Aside from that, I can tell you what I remember from the first gulf war. When we were attacking Kuwait.
I don't recall the U.S. ever attacking Kuwait. I believe you meant to say 'liberating Kuwait'.
The reason gas prices spiked up and then returned to normal was because the gas supply was destabilized when Iraq invaded Kuwait and then stabilized when Kuwait was liberated.
It was revealed in trial that the Enron crooks manufactured the California blackouts. Again to gouge prices in order to enrich the CEOs. I also agree with the NY Post in that when Ken Lay died I hope somebody checked the box to make sure he was in it.
It wasn't Enron's success that hurt anyone - it was the lack of ethics and morals.

Proper thing to do would have been to send the Navy out to escort them in. The American people should never have been held hostage like that by one private enterprise. You want to nationalize private property? What if I ask you to shoe my horse for $15 and you don't want to shoe my horse for $15 - but you'd consider it for $150. The horse really needs shoes. Sure, I could afford to pay more and your service is worth more on the free market - but I would really like to only pay $15. Which of the armed forces would you like to force you to shoe my horse?

All of these things clearly show how all of us lost a lot of money to someone elses gaining it. After we all fill up we have much less in our pockets than we did before.I don't lose any money when I fill up my tank. I trade my money for something more valuable and I would make the same trade if the gas were twice as expensive. Eventually, I might start thinking of ways to avoid using gas if it gets too expensive - all without the government getting involved.

It is not the success of others that hurt anyone in these examples that you write - it is the lack of ethics and morals. There is a big difference.

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by George Geist
Proper thing to do would have been to send the Navy out to escort them in. The American people should never have been held hostage like that by one private enterprise.

You want to nationalize private property? What if I ask you to shoe my horse for $15 and you don't want to shoe my horse for $15 - but you'd consider it for $150. The horse really needs shoes. Sure, I could afford to pay more and your service is worth more on the free market - but I would really like to only pay $15. Which of the armed forces would you like to force you to shoe my horse?

I must agree with this statement. Doing so is no better than wrongfull use of eminent domain. I still stand by my other statments.

This problem is cultural, social. Those are the greatest influences on economy. I think the problem is how the Fed cajoles and wheedles and twists perceptions of/for american culture/society to drain every last dime, and every shred of real value. What is sacred? We are being convinced to pull the wool over our own eyes. It is getting worse everyday. Address this problem and even though there would be turbulence for a time, everything would fall in line. IMO anyway.

*is ready to pull her own tank up capital hill, if she had one*

Dave Purves

07-30-2006, 06:32 PM

I must agree with this statement. Doing so is no better than wrongfull use of eminent domain. I still stand by my other statments.

This problem is cultural, social. Those are the greatest influences on economy. I think the problem is how the Fed cajoles and wheedles and twists perceptions of/for american culture/society to drain every last dime, and every shred of real value. What is sacred? We are being convinced to pull the wool over our own eyes. It is getting worse everyday. Address this problem and even though there would be turbulence for a time, everything would fall in line. IMO anyway.

*is ready to pull her own tank up capital hill, if she had one*

The truth is that for quite some time now, society has been telling government that we need taken care of. Tell me why our government officials and those that work for government don't pay into Social Security, yet I'm required to? We've convinced them that we aren't smart enough to care for ourselves and are not willing to learn how. Government control of big oil, will not fix any problems, in fact will only lead to bigger ones, just like Social Security. Society can tell government when and what to do, by it's actions in the voters booth. But I can't blame government in and of itself for societies problems, because our government is a product of it's society.

Dave

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 07:32 PM

The truth is that for quite some time now, society has been telling government that we need taken care of. Tell me why our government officials and those that work for government don't pay into Social Security, yet I'm required to? We've convinced them that we aren't smart enough to care for ourselves and are not willing to learn how. Government control of big oil, will not fix any problems, in fact will only lead to bigger ones, just like Social Security. Society can tell government when and what to do, by it's actions in the voters booth. But I can't blame government in and of itself for societies problems, because our government is a product of it's society.

Dave

Was the product of society. It seems to me that it is now a self propelled runaway train. You are right in that unless the public gets off thier @$$ and DOES something about the way things are going, nothing will change for the better. Have we convinced the gov't we are helpless, or are they now convincing US?? Who's idea was SS anyway??

The thing I see though, is that the gov't must protect itself now. They do this through political acrobatics, distractions, media control and constantly reinforcing the idea that we are helpless. They do that all by themselves. I have little faith in state elections and none in our federal ones. I have no reason too. History shows over and over where the (many) corrupt effectively buy and sell votes. Big buisness buys the votes...and that would be...hmm, Oil for one.
No you can't blame the gov't in and of itself because the problem is everyone is too physically comfortable to realize, or care right now. As long as the general pop is unwilling to see what is going on, they might as well get what they are told to ask for. Eventually things will get tight. Then we will HAVE to do something, or the Republic dies. Sooner the better really....I hate watching this happen.

tbloomer

07-30-2006, 08:26 PM

Who's idea was SS anyway??
The folks who controlled the house and senate for 5 decades. You know who I'm talking about? The party with no ideas? The party of the welfare state. The party of organized labor. The party that opposed equal rights for "colored folks" - then started calling themselves "civil rights advocates." The party that want's to give tax breaks to folks who don't pay taxes. The party that thinks that higher taxes helps the economy and creates jobs. The party that would negotiate with terrorists and give our country and our way of life up in favor of world government. The party that legislates from the bench. The party that gave us outcome based education. The party whose supreme court judges cite European laws in their ruleings on US CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 09:01 PM

Thank you Tom. :) That is a one sided demonstration of the two party system problem. How many actual, real, ordinary people think like that? Noone I know, not even those that vote that way. This cracks me up because BOTH sides are being fed hook, line,sinker and stinkbait, and both sides bite. The right wing side has it's enormous failings too. They both s.u.c.k potato(e)s. There is one Fed. It orginizes itself to perpetuate directly opposing "battle" when really we are just fighting ourselves. Keeps our minds off of the real enemy. Read above posts. As long as things are Donnybrook, they are #$%^@#&, not fighting. It certainly explains the position changing.

This is the way I see things. I might be WAY off, but I don't think so. If you end up shaking your head and walking away. Remember, I'm an Idealist...lol.

George Geist

07-30-2006, 09:09 PM

Sarah,
You're right. I dont know why these guys get that way about parties either. Too much talk radio I guess.

If you want to know the difference between the parties it can best be described as the Democrats can vote to burn down Washington and the Republicans will attach an amendment phasing it in over a one week period claiming great victory.

In other words there is no difference their both the same. Agree with you completely

George

Rick Burten

07-30-2006, 09:20 PM

Thank you Tom. :) That is a one sided demonstration of the two party system problem. How many actual, real, ordinary people think like that? Noone I know, not even those that vote that way.
I know this is going to cost me points in your eyes Sarah, I have to admit that as an actual, real, ordinary person, I pretty much think like that. :eek: :)

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 09:36 PM

Well, Rick I've seen you be pretty "extreme" before. :D You really accept nonsensical ideas in regards to politics?? That seems so unlike you. If so, to each thier own, but in case there was a bit of confusion, I ment how many real people believe the **** or think the expressed evident history is acceptable? Either they don't, or they don't see. But please explain fu.rth.er.

Don't worry. You only loose 1 point. :p

To quote Tom,

The party that opposed equal rights for "colored folks" - then started calling themselves "civil rights advocates."...The party that gave us outcome based education. The party whose supreme court judges cite European laws in their ruleings on US CONSTITUTIONAL LAW

As to rightys: Those who don't know the meaning of the word "preserve" Those who get into politics For the kickbacks and bribes. Sons groomed to take a so-called elected role(I didn't like the competition either btw)Ect. ect.

Change will come one day. Just not sure what the change will be yet. I know what I hope/will work for.

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 09:38 PM

George, you are right about the talk radio...NPR is just a tool. ;)

tbloomer

07-30-2006, 11:39 PM

Sarah,

I am a weak athiest and when it comes to government I am a Libertarian. My preference would be for the govenrment to stick to criminal law enforcement, national defense, and foreign relations. The only government official I know of that thought that way was Thomas Jefferson.

tbloomer

07-30-2006, 11:45 PM

If you want to know the difference between the parties it can best be described as the Democrats can vote to burn down Washington and the Republicans will attach an amendment phasing it in over a one week period claiming great victory.

I thought it was the party with no ideas vs. the party with bad ideas.

.

Skinfaxi

07-30-2006, 11:53 PM

Perhaps we are in agreement on somethings then Tom, and were just spliting hairs on how to return things to the way they were ment to be. Which in turn theoretically would "balance" the economy, over time.

tbloomer

07-31-2006, 12:18 AM

Skinfaxi

07-31-2006, 05:25 PM

I thought that the commodities market was supposed to balance the economy over time.

Well, not if the market is off balance.

What would happen if the very few oil monopolies were broken into many smaller companies? What would happen if the Federal Gov't paid it's debts and collected what was owed? What if we stopped relying in credit so heavily? What if everyone HAD to be responsible, or they would have no retirement funds? What if we stopped giving "aid" to those who won't help themselves?

It sounds good, but how do you get there?

:eek: :D It would at least decimate the breeding pop. of i.diots, no?

mbetteridge

07-31-2006, 09:33 PM

Cordell,

For struggling horseshoers out there it might mean the difference between staying in business or not. Worst part of it is that their greed most adversely effects the people in this country who can least afford it.

So next time we all fill up we can "smile" that its possible that a CEO can make such a vast personal fortune off of the backs of everyone else I suppose.
George

We bought a semi in December. Our average fuel bill is $5000 per month. There has been talk (not sure that it's true, just talk so far) that some of the biggest trucking companies are going to be shutting their trucks down 3 days a week. The idea is to send a message to the big oil companies, that they're not going to continue paying such ridiculous prices while the oil companies are raking in record profits.

HoustonFarrier

08-01-2006, 10:22 AM

Guns......the answer to our woes is ... guns......we revolted via armed aggression from an over-taxing, over-bearing, monopolistic government in 1776.......we can do it again.

Sign me up!

Steve

Skinfaxi

08-01-2006, 01:15 PM

Hooray! Let's start the National People's Militia. We can make a citizens arrest on all of Congress and The Supreme Court for treason. I'm armed, ready, and waiting. :D

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 07:18 PM

Cordell,
I put this up here in politics thinking it the most appropriate place for it and it is my hope that it can be kept on the up and up and not degenerate into an ad hominum p***ing contest like the last thread did.

............................George

From Union Facts.com (http://unionfacts.com)

Top 10 International AFL/CIO Leaders & Staff (by Salary) NameTitle Total CompensationJohn Sweeney (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) President (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 279,301 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Linda Chavez-thompson (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) Executive Vice President (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 239,397 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Richard Trumka (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) Secretary-treasurer (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 227,793 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Marilyn Sneiderman (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) Field Mobilization Dir (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 196,445 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Clarence Frost (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) National Field Rep (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 187,448 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Robert Welsh (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) Ex Assistant To Pres (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 178,932 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Jonathan Hiatt (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) General Counsel (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 172,587 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Bradley Burton (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) Executive Asst To S/t (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 163,571 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Jerald Zellhoefer (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) European Representative (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 162,145 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)Joseph Uehlein (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) Asst Dir - Strategic Cpgn (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231) $ 158,198 (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)[show all officers & salaries] (http://unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=252231)

That are the salarries, total for Lobbying the Goverment for the Unions, just AFL/CIO is : go to the links and see.

Business is business George, combine all the Union $ totals and see where your argument stands.?????????????????????????? geez!

George Geist

08-01-2006, 07:28 PM

Jaye,
Soon as I get home I'll post some better stuff from CEO Salary watch.
Dont worry, they have the union leaders beat by far!!!!
George

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 07:32 PM

Jaye,
Soon as I get home I'll post some better stuff from CEO Salary watch.
Dont worry, they have the union leaders beat by far!!!!
GeorgeNot when you combine all the monies used by Lobbyist for ALL the Unions. Union lobby is "BIG BUSINESS", George. Big Business is classified, by our government, assets over $250 million.

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 07:43 PM

.....
Dont worry, they have the union leaders beat by far!!!!
GeorgeSeems that "Big Business" bleeds over to Unions:

Union Leader Fraud & Corruption from http://unionfacts.com (http://unionfacts.com/)

OLMS Enforcement Statistics Financial Integrity FY 2001 FY 2002 FY 2003 FY 2004 FY 2005 Indictments 98/166 132/109114Convictions1029015211197
Embezzlement, False Reports, Violence, And More …
Most people don't know just how many crimes are committed every year through which union officials hurt their own members.

The graph didn't paste well, go to link.

George Geist

08-01-2006, 07:46 PM

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 07:54 PM

Jaye, on second thought, Il'll post it now.
http://www.afl-cio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/

Like it or not lobbyists cost money. Most of them are lawyers (even Tom Bloomer doesnt care for them) And worse yet politicians cost even more money.
George
Use of Dues for Politics

Every day, millions of union members have money taken from their paychecks to support some union presidents' political agenda. In 1996, Rutgers economics professor Leo Troy estimated that union political expenditures totaled about $500 million in each election cycle. More recently, the National Institute for Labor Relations Research estimated that total union political expenditures reached $925 million in the 2004 cycle. Over time, this has added up: According to The Center for Responsive Politics, eight of the top ten all-time political contributors are labor unions.

From
http://unionfacts.com

George Geist

08-01-2006, 08:05 PM

Jaye,

You know fully well that this is no longer the case and was the main cause of the AFL-CIO losing a third of their member unions a year ago.

Members can have dues withheld from such activities if they wish also as is their right by law.

When it comes to indictments would you like to talk about politicians? Again I believe them and CEOs would have labor beat on that too.

I believe you will also find more organized crime on Wall St.

Keep trying Jaye, your not helping Exxon much with this stuff.
George

George Geist

08-01-2006, 08:13 PM

I'll say one more thing before I go if I can keep from laughing long enough to type it in.

Smile at how much you can make being a UNION LEADER!!!!!

George

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 08:19 PM

George Geist-Jaye,
You know fully well that this is no longer the case and was the main cause of the AFL-CIO losing a third of their member unions a year ago.

Facts are facts george, it is on the web for people to see, read and digest. Losing memebers for the previous reply stated.

Members can have dues withheld from such activities if they wish also as is their right by law.

Yeah by law, after the memebrs realized they were getting bent over by their leaders and not even getting a reach......................

When it comes to indictments would you like to talk about politicians? Again I believe them and CEOs would have labor beat on that too.
No George, Unions ARE "BIG BUSINESS", they have and are holding hands!!!!!

I believe you will also find more organized crime on Wall St.
Esoterical blather George, trying to change focal point. Usual tactic when confronted with facts.

Keep trying Jaye, your not helping Exxon much with this stuff.

I don't work for Exxon. I work for Horseshoes By Jaye Perry Inc. I am not a memeber of squat!!
But yout are and here's a pic to hoist to YOUR heros again from http://unionfacts.com:

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 08:26 PM

.................Smile at how much you can make being a UNION LEADER!!!!!
GeorgeHell of a lot more than you turn George. No, no, no that is "Boy George" because you are my "NEW" "Whipping Boy". Hey boy! Why won't you answer my plain ,blunt question: What is George's "Business Strategy of Success"?

And Please, no esoterical hyperbole, spare us!!

Jaye Perry

08-01-2006, 08:49 PM

Jaye, on second thought, Il'll post it now.
http://www.afl-cio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/

.......When researching your link to come up with pertinent rebuttals this is what I found in the resources sited and sponsored by your link quoted george:
HTTP 404 - File not found

really convenient george!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skinfaxi

08-01-2006, 09:03 PM

Um...yeah. Unions are just as bad as Exxon or any other major lobbyist. Why? Well, let me tell you. It all goes back to the same corruption and greed thing that causes our govt to fail us.

If the people we supposedly choose to lead the country don't do it right, what makes anyone think that the people bribeing them do? I'd rather vote myself on every issue(on a state level) than trust a bunch of corporate(yes unions too...they PROFIT.) fatbacks with self centered agendas. They do 'just' enough to keep people convinced...ugh.

[Edit: Looks like I let my zealot show.... :o ]

tbloomer

08-02-2006, 09:28 AM

Hell of a lot more than you turn George. No, no, no that is "Boy George" because you are my "NEW" "Whipping Boy". Hey boy! Why won't you answer my plain ,blunt question: What is George's "Business Strategy of Success"?

And Please, no esoterical hyperbole, spare us!!
Jaye, Jaye, JAYE!!!

When you're a member of a union you are automatically successful. As long as you show up for work and pay your dues you are equal to everyone else that shows up and pays their dues. Everyone is treated equally and fairly. Nobody stands out - nobody is special. You're missing out on the all the fun of writhing in the throes of mediorcaty. Just think of the benefits of being a member of an organization where no one stands out. No one is rewarded for working any harder or smarter. The union determines what the bare minumum work requirements are. Then everybody agrees to do the bare minumum. Everybody gets paid the same REGARDLESS of production. Raises and promotions are determined by time in service, NOT by productivity. Management is PREVENTED from rewarding innovation, intelligence, and accomplishment.

Management is prevented from providing incentives that might MOTIVATE someone to do anything that would cause them to stand out from the crowd. After all, we don't want anyone to stand out. That wouldn't be fair to the rest of the members who are faithfully paying their dues and doing the bare minimum to get by. This way nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Jaye, don't you know that when you charge high prices for shoeing a horse, and when you fix a horse that the previous farrier screwed up, that you are hurting the other farrier's feelings? It's not fair!!! Think of how you are making the other guy look. By charging more and delivering more you are in effect causing horse owners to raise their expectations. That's BAD juju for the farrier trade. We don't want "management" to expect more. We don't want management to think that some farriers are excellent and outstanding, and therefore worth more than the rest of the farriers out there just s****ing to get by.

Jaye, you just don't get it, do you? How would you like it if I moved to your area and charged twice as much as you . . . and you started loosing customers to me? Wouldn't that hurt your feelings? What if I were to come in to your territory and raise the expectations of the horse owning public? Suppose that I was able to convince people that a good shoeing job was worth $500. In order to get $500, you would then have to WORK to convince people that YOUR shoeing was good enough to be worth that amount of money. How fair would that be? I would be taking money out of your pocket!!!

Ronald E. Kramedjian

08-02-2006, 09:59 AM

Tom, Bloomer, RJFTom,

Congratulations on passing your guild tests. :D :D :D

tbloomer

08-02-2006, 10:42 AM

Tom,

Congratulations on passing your guild tests. :D :D :D
Thanks Ron. Now it's your turn. However I recommend that you do it on a cooler day.

Henery and his lovely wife (whose horse was my victim) were a gracoius hosts. However in spite of the fact that I had my rig inside the shade of their barn and they provided several large fans to keep the air moving and help with fly control . . . I changed shirts 3 times. I think Henery change his shirt a few times too - and he wasn't working in the fire or under the horse.

I HAD A BLAST!!! I might have set a new record as well for the longest time spent taking The Guild practical exam as well as the most liquid consumed in an attempt to stay hydrated during the process.

Henery's wife has the largest quarterhorse that I have ever seen. He makes some of the Dutch warmbloods that I have shod look petite. I'm not talking about a hot house halter type. This boy is close to 17hh, fit, and well perportioned. He is a dressage horse. According to Henery - oft mistaken for a warm blood.

It was one of the best days I have ever spent as a farrier.

George Geist

08-02-2006, 03:32 PM

mbetteridge,
I have heard such rumors numerous times in the past. Nothing has ever materialized. I have no hope that such a thing will this time either. However, if I am wrong which I would love to be, keep me posted I'll definitely participate.

Just learned from the latest issue of American Hunter magazine that Wal Mart will be discontinuing the sale of firearms in 1000 stores. I guess thats the only thing they couldn't get from a chinese prison camp.

Jaye and Tom,
Research a little ****her, union dues are always 100% tax deductible therefore it costs the members nothing. Having said that, I will also say that I will also not be letting you guys hijack this thread with your anti-worker diatribes.

I will only discuss the issue at hand which is the proof that Cordell's statement was wrong.

Now if you guys have to go get your Limbaugh letters to debate that, bring it on.
George

Dave Purves

08-02-2006, 03:52 PM

Just learned from the latest issue of American Hunter magazine that Wal Mart will be discontinuing the sale of firearms in 1000 stores. I guess thats the only thing they couldn't get from a chinese prison camp.

Chinese Prison camp, that's a good one George. BUZZZZZZZZZZword

Jaye and Tom,
Research a little ****her, union dues are always 100% tax deductible therefore it costs the members nothing.

Actually Einstien, it does cost you. The value of a tax write off is only about 25% (rough guess). So if your union dues are $100, they cost you about $75 after the tax write off. Are you assuming that your shoes and nails don't cost you anything cause you can write them off? What about your truck payments, or fuel? You just let everyone on this forum know that you have no clue about running your business.

Having said that, I will also say that I will also not be letting you guys hijack this thread with your anti-worker diatribes.

I won't let you hijack this thread with your anti-America, anti-Constitution, anti-Success diatribes either.

I will only discuss the issue at hand which is the proof that Cordell's statement was wrong.

The only way Cordell's statement was wrong is if we live in a Socialist State, Do we?

Now if you guys have to go get your Limbaugh letters to debate that, bring it on.

I haven't yet recieved the latest Limbaugh letter, but I did get my prescription of perkaset.

Dave

HoustonFarrier

08-02-2006, 03:58 PM

union dues are always 100% tax deductible therefore it costs the members nothing

100% WRONG. By being tax deductable, you are only freed from paying TAXES on that portion of the $$$$$......it STILL comes out of your wallet. For example, if you surrender $10,000 per year of your hard earned money for union dues, then your overall TAXABLE income is decreased by the amount of $10,000.

Steve

George Geist

08-02-2006, 04:05 PM

Hey Houston,
$10,000!

What in the world you been looking at the CEOs union?
George

tbloomer

08-02-2006, 04:06 PM

[deletia] I will also not be letting you guys hijack this thread with your anti-worker diatribes.
I didn't realize that we were hijacking the thread. I thought we were slaughtering your socialist dogma with . . . truth.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" Exodos 20:12

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's . . . stuff" Exodos 20:13

Jaye Perry

08-02-2006, 04:06 PM

George Geist........ However, if I am wrong which I would love to be, keep me posted I'll definitely participate.
YOU ARE!

Just learned from the latest issue of American Hunter magazine that Wal Mart will be discontinuing the sale of firearms in 1000 stores. I guess thats the only thing they couldn't get from a chinese prison camp.
business move, liability. not motivated by inmates or con -artist like you.

Jaye and Tom,
Glad I'm in good company:D

Research a little ****her, union dues are always 100% tax deductible therefore it costs the members nothing. Having said that, I will also say that I will also not be letting you guys hijack this thread with your anti-worker diatribes.
Here is a diatribe:http://boortz.com/nuze/200607/07202006.html
JUDGE THROWS OUT WAL-MART LAW

A federal district court judge has overturned a fairly new law in Maryland (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2006-07-19-walmart-healthcare_x.htm) that required companies with more than 10,000 employees to pay at least 8% of their payroll toward health care costs. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know who that law was aimed at. How many companies do you know of that have more than 10,000 employees in a single state? The target was Wal-Mart.

The state says it is going to appeal the ruling. No surprise there. There are, after all, unions to placate. The purpose was pander to Maryland's union voters by trying to hurt Wal-Mart. The reason the mainly Democratic legislature wanted to punish the company is simple. Wal-Mart is a non-union shop. There's also the fact that other grocery companies, unable to compete in the marketplace, choose to try and legislate against their competition. For the most part, though, this was a union-inspired bill and merely another part of the union-led war against Wal-Mart.

Democrats get millions of dollars every year in forced campaign donations from the checks of union members. The fact that thousands of Wal-Mart employees get paid each week and don't give a cut to the leftist labor unions...that outrages the left. They also can't stand the fact that Wal-Mart sells goods as cheaply as possible and pays wages that are allegedly not enough. But this is a free country. If somebody doesn't think Wal-Mart pays enough, they can and do work elsewhere. It is simply not the role of any government to decide what a company pays its employees.

Here's hoping the appeals court upholds this one and keeps politicians and the unions in check.

I will only discuss the issue at hand which is the proof that Cordell's statement was wrong.
The previous diatribe blankets your issue and my issue with your mindset.

Now if you guys have to go get your Limbaugh letters to debate that, bring it on.
I do not subscribe to the "Godfather's" letter. This is my Psalm that gives me ammunition: http://boortz.com/more/newsletter.html

George
No that is, well we all know...................

George Geist

08-02-2006, 04:11 PM

It is an unfortunate example of an activist judge trying to legislate from the bench which will hopefully be overturned on appeal.

Until then the good people of Maryland will have to continue paying the Wal Mart tax.
George

Dave Purves

08-02-2006, 04:26 PM

Chinese Prison camp, that's a good one George. BUZZZZZZZZZZword

Actually Einstien, it does cost you. The value of a tax write off is only about 25% (rough guess). So if your union dues are $100, they cost you about $75 after the tax write off. Are you assuming that your shoes and nails don't cost you anything cause you can write them off? What about your truck payments, or fuel? You just let everyone on this forum know that you have no clue about running your business.

I won't let you hijack this thread with your anti-America, anti-Constitution, anti-Success diatribes either.

The only way Cordell's statement was wrong is if we live in a Socialist State, Do we?

I haven't yet recieved the latest Limbaugh letter, but I did get my prescription of perkaset.

Dave

Dave (just one of the merry minions led to the trough by my own way of thinking)

Phil Armitage

08-02-2006, 06:37 PM

George, when I visited you and heard all the reasons for belonging to a union, I have to tell you I was not sold on it at all.

Union dues what was it 135.00/mo. 1,620.00/yr. Tax write off because it is a non-profit org. Did I also hear that the union is the only Farrier org that is non-profit? Isnt the AFA a non-profit? So that would also mean my AFA dues are a write off. I could by some good stuff for my farrier buisness that will give me emmediate results and write it off. My new 35 HP 4WD Tractor payments are 160.00/mo.

Medical Benefits, still very high, could probably find insurance on your own or part of self employed groups.

Protects the farrier's working conditions, hours worked and working conditions. Any farrier can protect themselfs, you decide when, how much and where you work.

Qauterly meetings. Doing what shooting the ****?

Test/certification. It looked like a simple task and to be honest a joke.

So why would I give money to an org. every month for things I can do myself. Does not make any sense. Sounds like the one makeing out here is the Union and I can see why they want to gain members. $$$$$$$$

Sorry George, but there is no reason for Unions anymore. I could see it when laborers were mistreated in the ole days, however not these days.

cordell_rogers

08-02-2006, 06:46 PM

Jaye and Tom,
Research a little ****her, union dues are always 100% tax deductible therefore it costs the members nothing.
Actually Einstien, it does cost you. The value of a tax write off is only about 25% (rough guess). So if your union dues are $100, they cost you about $75 after the tax write off. Are you assuming that your shoes and nails don't cost you anything cause you can write them off? What about your truck payments, or fuel? You just let everyone on this forum know that you have no clue about running your business.
Dave is right on. You'd be surprised how many people spend dollars to save quarters when it comes to taxes.

It should be obvious that something is amiss from George's use of unqualified statements like "always", "100%" and "nothing".

cordell_rogers

08-02-2006, 07:09 PM

George,
In your zero-sum view of the world, wouldn't the union's success in taking your dues be to your detriment? Union leader wins, union member loses.
Cordell

Jaye Perry

08-02-2006, 07:40 PM

tbloomer-Jaye, Jaye, JAYE!!!
WHAT?

..........................Jaye, you just don't get it, do you? How would you like it if I moved to your area and charged twice as much as you . . . and you started loosing customers to me?Would you, please. That way I could fishing.

Wouldn't that hurt your feelings? What if I were to come in to your territory and raise the expectations of the horse owning public? Suppose that I was able to convince people that a good shoeing job was worth $500.Not one bit!!!! More power to ya pard, that way we both could retire earlY!!!!!!!

In order to get $500, you would then have to WORK to convince people that YOUR shoeing was good enough to be worth that amount of money. How fair would that be? I would be taking money out of your pocket!!!!It's just business, nut'in personal. Hard Work, good business strategy, marketing and knowledge of the market will make you sucessful. Whether you invoice $500 a head or $90.

Jaye Perry

08-02-2006, 07:53 PM

Phil Armitage-George, when I visited you and heard all the reasons for belonging to a union, I have to tell you I was not sold on it at all.
Union dues what was it 135.00/mo. 1,620.00/yr. ................
That is 34% above the price you shoe "a" horse with 4 shoes, gorge. So it takes approxiamately 1.5 horses amonth for the Union. That doesn't include the number of horses a month for taxes to the state(s) and feds.
Running a so-called successful business, household expenses, health and retirement inputs and out- lays add up also.

For 10 years @ $1620.00 adds up to $16+ k- Cordell help me out here, what does that calculate out to if that money was invested into a no-load mutaul fund at an avearge of 5%?

Ronald E. Kramedjian

08-02-2006, 08:34 PM

Thanks Ron. Now it's your turn. However I recommend that you do it on a cooler day.You are welcome. I am focused on finishing my CF first. Then I'll relax and review my options.

I will deffinately schedule for cooler weather. I would have done that anyway, god forbid I have to get my fat executive butt out on a hot day and do honest work. :eek: :p

Phil Armitage

08-02-2006, 08:53 PM

That is 34% above the price you shoe "a" horse with 4 shoes, gorge. So it takes approxiamately 1.5 horses amonth for the Union. That doesn't include the number of horses a month for taxes to the state(s) and feds.
Running a so-called successful business, household expenses, health and retirement inputs and out- lays add up also.

For 10 years @ $1620.00 adds up to $16+ k- Cordell help me out here, what does that calculate out to if that money was invested into a no-load mutaul fund at an avearge of 5%?

135.00 seems high, maybe it is 35.00 a month, poor hearing. George what is the dues? Still 420.00 yr. is a lot of money and can be invested. For 10 years 4,200.00. Still a good investment into Mutual Fund at 5%. 420.00 a year and no magazine, no certification equivlant to CJF and horseowner definately do not know who the union is or what it is. Probably would make them nervous or get laughed at if they found out.

Skinfaxi

08-02-2006, 08:55 PM

Could someone then, please, explain to me how in light of current political/social trends, one would expect the apparent buisness practices of good planning, sound investing and hard work to hold up? (Note that I said nothing about fair market.)

I guess supply and demand work differently these days. Why when oil prices dropped after July 17 did fuel prices spike? Maybe I'm missing something. I'm no expert after all.

When we are finally :( a socialist state, all the plans go out the window and you will work as hard as you are told to, and you'll get what they give ya. Moan and p.iss over the little picture or act on the big one....

I'm a silly young thing I guess...what appears so obvious must just be boggling me...DUH!!! Some one straighten me out. I'm all ears...er...eyes.

Right. :cool:

Dave Purves

08-02-2006, 09:44 PM

I guess supply and demand work differently these days. Why when oil prices dropped after July 17 did fuel prices spike? Maybe I'm missing something. I'm no expert after all.

Because people are still buying fuel with no signs of letting up. So far all the only threats oil companies are hearing is a bunch of whining from the masses, and not even all of the masses. Just the ones that can get a spot on TV. If you want to see gas prices come down, you must do more than whine. Perhaps you must organize a boycott on gasoline. It's not up to our government to control the free market, it's up to the consumer. If you put fuel prices in the stead of our government, when it spikes up like this, we can't really do anything about it, much like our tax hikes. Our sales tax went up, but I can't really afford not to buy anything. I do need to live. However, right now, fuel prices are nothing more than a reflection of the market and how much the consumer is willing to pay. We may not like it, but so far everyone is willing to pay it. When the consumers decide not to buy it, the price will come down. Just like your shoeing business. You can do as Tom Bloomer and charge $500, but your consumers better be willing to pay it, if not either your prices will come down, or you will go out of business.

It's really quite simple, I don't know why people think it's so hard to figure out.

Dave :confused:

Skinfaxi

08-02-2006, 09:49 PM

Because people are still buying fuel with no signs of letting up. So far all the only threats oil companies are hearing is a bunch of whining from the masses, and not even all of the masses. Just the ones that can get a spot on TV. If you want to see gas prices come down, you must do more than whine. Perhaps you must organize a boycott on gasoline. It's not up to our government to control the free market, it's up to the consumer. If you put fuel prices in the stead of our government, when it spikes up like this, we can't really do anything about it, much like our tax hikes. Our sales tax went up, but I can't really afford not to buy anything. I do need to live. However, right now, fuel prices are nothing more than a reflection of the market and how much the consumer is willing to pay. We may not like it, but so far everyone is willing to pay it. When the consumers decide not to buy it, the price will come down. Just like your shoeing business. You can do as Tom Bloomer and charge $500, but your consumers better be willing to pay it, if not either your prices will come down, or you will go out of business.

It's really quite simple, I don't know why people think it's so hard to figure out.

Ok. I understand that people are still "willing" to pay the price, but how would one organize a successful boycott. I can and do ride a bike to work but like you said, most people can't afford to not buy. They don't buy, they don't work. That isn't gonna happen. Then what?

This is a world market right. So we are in competion with (and feeding) developing countries. India and China are driving now....This effects our place in the market negitively huh?

tbloomer

08-03-2006, 06:27 AM

Ok. I understand that people are still "willing" to pay the price, but how would one organize a successful boycott. I can and do ride a bike to work but like you said, most people can't afford to not buy. They don't buy, they don't work. That isn't gonna happen. Then what?

This is a world market right. So we are in competion with (and feeding) developing countries. India and China are driving now....This effects our place in the market negitively huh?

There is a higher demand (globally) for the stuff that we Americans are used to buying cheaply. Asia is supplying cheap labor - factory workers to build stuff that we consume. Used to be that we Americans made jokes about cheap stuff coming from Japan . . . now we make jokes about cheap stuff coming from China, the GOOD STUFF comes from Japan!

Yes you pay $3/gal for gas. But you can buy a home computer for $500. This $500 computer has 10 times the computing power of a $3000 computer that you could buy 5 years ago. Computers and electronic components are manufactured in high tech factories in ASIA.

Here you are complaining about the cost of gas, riding a bike to work . . . and you have a COMPUTER. You poor thing . . . life is so hard. The economy is doing so poorly that you're going to have to choose between putting gas in your car and . . . CABLE TV.

Our economy is so crippled by the high fuel prices that we can barely afford to pay for our teenager’s mobile phone bills.

Phil Armitage

08-03-2006, 07:02 AM

Personaly I think they should drive the prices of materials and fuel right up. Why you ask. Well the answer to that is very simple I say. Very simple. We need to waste less in this country and the best way to get that point across is right in the wallet. I hate seeing so much waste, that is a sin. Waste food, steel, lumber, building materials, plastic, electronics. Pretty soon we will be trying to dispose of all the bad battery out of hybrids. Waste and hazardous material.

We need more horses, at least the waste can be used as fertalizer.

Skinfaxi

08-03-2006, 07:41 AM

Here you are complaining about the cost of gas, riding a bike to work . . . and you have a COMPUTER. You poor thing . . . life is so hard. The economy is doing so poorly that you're going to have to choose between putting gas in your car and . . . CABLE TV.

Do you know me?!? I'm less than impressed. I ride my bike to work because I WANT TO... :eek: I also don't have cable TV anyway, as I don't watch much TV. You assume too much, and should ask questions once in awhile like others do. You know that the argument was was about "justified" prices. How much my computer(that was a gift from my father) cost has nothing to do with the very sudden and convinient fuel price hike. I asked for an explination was all.
I try not to participate in p.issing contests....

Here are valid questions worthy of discussion, that got skipped over some how.

What would happen if the very few oil monopolies were broken into many smaller companies?

What would happen if the Federal Gov't paid it's debts and collected what was owed?

What if we stopped relying in credit so heavily?

What if everyone HAD to be responsible, or they would have no retirement funds?
What if we stopped giving "aid" to those who won't help themselves?

How would one organize a successful boycott?

Oh, Phil. I also feel that way about waste to a certain extent. At least when your horse ****s out you can have a barbeque instead of calling the junk man. :p

Dave Purves

08-03-2006, 03:53 PM

Here are valid questions worthy of discussion, that got skipped over some how.

Maybe

What would happen if the very few oil monopolies were broken into many smaller companies?

It is impossible to have a FEW monopolies. In order to be a monopoly there can only be ONE. But for the sake of argument, who's job is it to regulate those companies, and how is it fare to break up those big companies, and then give control of it's parts to someone else? And who's to say that those small companies will operate any differently than the big ones? What if the farriers in your area decided that you have too many clients and the state came in and took a good portion of your clients and then passed them out to some of the other farriers in your area? I think you'd be mad. At this point in your career it may not affect you to much, but what if they did that to Rick, Jaye, Tom B., Tom S, Phil, Me, or any other farrier that's been at this awhile, working hard to build up a good clientelle, working hard to provide a great service. And then one day the state comes in and says, sorry Rick, You're just to damn succesful so we're gonna have to break up your business. We'll let you keep 25% of your business, but the rest will be split up and given to other farriers in your area, we just can't have you out there driving up the price of shoeing. It's the same thing as telling Exxon they are too big. Exxon as worked hard to become that big. If we don't like what they are doing, they we must not buy from them. Same as Wal Mart.

What would happen if the Federal Gov't paid it's debts and collected what was owed?

Where does the money come from? Collecting on what is owed is like the bank coming to me and saying that they will no longer accept payments on my house, I must now come up with the total balance. While that is probably legal somewhere, it's not very fair. And who's to say that those that owe us money could come up with what they owe us right now. While your plan sounds simple, it is not.

What if we stopped relying in credit so heavily?

Who is "we"? If you're talking about the American People in general, that can't happen cause credit is now the new American Way. Most businesses depend on credit to grow. If you're talking about our government, the term "credit" is relative since they are the ones that determine interest rates and they are also the ones that print our monies. So they determine how much money is in circulation and what it is worth.

What if everyone HAD to be responsible, or they would have no retirement funds?

While I agree with you on this point, You would be responsible for helping your parents retire. It wasn't so long ago when the family took care of themselves, when grandpa was just to old and weak to contribute, everyone else pitched in and took care of grandpa, now, we send him to an old folks home and let his Social Security check take care of things.

What if we stopped giving "aid" to those who won't help themselves?

Again I agree with you, however, we would be unable to walk the streets without fear, for those that are being helped, would be homeless, and doing whatever they can to eat, drink and get drugs.

How would one organize a successful boycott?

Ask Cindy Sheehan. First you must organize your thoughts. Make sure that you have a good plan, and a good reason. Next you must dissiminate your plan and your reasoning to as many people as you can. Getting on your local TV and newspaper would be a good place to start. Perhaps you could start some type of oranization that could recieve funding. Next you must plan a good strategy. In order to boycott gasoline, you would have to figure out what days would be best for most Americans to not NEED gasoline. Perhaps a Saturday in the middle of the month, no where near any Holidays. Then you must organize. You have to get as many people to follow you as you can. Organize within your community, then your county, then your state, and so on. You would have to branch off and have "chapters" in other states, so that everyone is on the same page. Then it's all about implementation. You must implement your plan as swiftly as possible, as not to let the big bad oil companies know what you plan to do, otherwise they may drop the prices at the pump by half on the very day you plan your boycott.

good luck
Dave

Steve Swain

08-03-2006, 04:28 PM

The word is oligopoly, a few companies controlling a market. Dang that book learnin comes in handy once in awhile.

Skinfaxi

08-03-2006, 05:49 PM

It is impossible to have a FEW monopolies. In order to be a monopoly there can only be ONE.

Yeah, I knew that when I typed it...I just didn't know what it was called. I should have looked it up. Thanks Steve :)

But for the sake of argument, who's job is it to regulate those companies, and how is it fare to break up those big companies, and then give control of it's parts to someone else? And who's to say that those small companies will operate any differently than the big ones?I think you'd be mad. At this point in your career it may not affect you to much, but what if they did that to Rick, Jaye, Tom B., Tom S, Phil, Me, or any other farrier that's been at this awhile, working hard to build up a good clientelle, working hard to provide a great service. And then one day the state comes in and says, sorry Rick, You're just to damn succesful so we're gonna have to break up your business. We'll let you keep 25% of your business, but the rest will be split up and given to other farriers in your area, we just can't have you out there driving up the price of shoeing. It's the same thing as telling Exxon they are too big. Exxon as worked hard to become that big. If we don't like what they are doing, they we must not buy from them. Same as Wal Mart.

Well, it should be the companies job. Honestly, where is the competion to keep them in check? I see a big black line between a successful self-employed person working hard and earning a good living by offering the best he can, amidts fair competion and a corporate hippo that controls more than just its business. I don't even put Exxon and Walmart(even though I dislike the store) in the same slot, because we are not a nation dependant on Walmart. I also agree that the public should act accordingly instead of crying, but will they? I can purchase as little fuel as possible, but I still pay for my neighbors and other countries. Exxon could choose to be a little less greedy, but they won't. They don't have to. If farriers started lobbying themselves bills, tax breaks and gov't aid while turning a HUGE profit I'd be unhappy with them too.

At this point in your career it may not affect you to much, but what if they did that to Rick, Jaye, Tom B., Tom S, Phil, Me, or any other farrier that's been at this awhile, working hard to build up a good clientelle, working hard to provide a great service.

It does affect me, as I'm not trying to be a hack. I intend to be just as successful as any of you. Your skills are my goals. :D I want things like anyone else. I want a decent house, about 80 acres, reliable transportation and not having to fear the bill collectors. I don't desire EVERYTHING though. I don't expect everyone to want the same thing or have the same values, some want more than me, some want less. But if the lower limit is starvation, isn't the upper limit gross excess with no purpose? I'm sure that you stop working to enjoy your life now and then or spend time with other people. However, I really do see your point. Perhaps in a year or two, this will have been academic for me....but now, it seems senseless.

Where does the money come from? Collecting on what is owed is like the bank coming to me and saying that they will no longer accept payments on my house, I must now come up with the total balance. While that is probably legal somewhere, it's not very fair. And who's to say that those that owe us money could come up with what they owe us right now. While your plan sounds simple, it is not.

The money could come from all the wasted foreign aid, porkbarrel spending cuts and all the raises congress can stop giving themselves...to name a few sources. I know it's not simple...unless you have an army to simplify things(sorry, reflex).
As for collection on debts? Is your house payment a 30 yr mortgage or an infinite mortgage? 30 years sounds good. We could also pay some debt with that.

Who is "we"? If you're talking about the American People in general, that can't happen cause credit is now the new American Way. Most businesses depend on credit to grow. If you're talking about our government, the term "credit" is relative since they are the ones that determine interest rates and they are also the ones that print our monies. So they determine how much money is in circulation and what it is worth

I was talking about the public. I understand that it is important for some development. It would be nice to see people stop using creditcards to buy 600 inch plasma screens that barely fit in the trailer and subsequently filing for bankruptcy

So they determine how much money is in circulation and what it is worth

So gold is no longer determining value? Imaginaton is?

You would be responsible for helping your parents retire. It wasn't so long ago when the family took care of themselves, when grandpa was just to old and weak to contribute, everyone else pitched in and took care of grandpa, now, we send him to an old folks home and let his Social Security check take care of things.

Hmmm, I miss family too....:( Wonder what broke things apart...?

Again I agree with you, however, we would be unable to walk the streets without fear, for those that are being helped, would be homeless, and doing whatever they can to eat, drink and get drugs.

In some places you can't go outside today. I ment Foriegn Aid primarily(and a few national programs) Put the money into the problems at home like overcrowded public schools.

Next you must plan a good strategy. In order to boycott gasoline, you would have to figure out what days would be best for most Americans to not NEED gasoline...

^^...hmmmm. Maybe I will.

good luck
Dave

Thanks :)

Dave Purves

08-03-2006, 08:51 PM

Well, it should be the companies job.

It's the consumer's job. The consumer is the one that tells a company how much their product or service is worth. Your shoeing clients tell you how much you can charge for your services. If they didn't we would all be charging $1000 to shoe a horse, we'd shoe one a day and call it quits.

Honestly, where is the competion to keep them in check?

In the horseshoeing world today, competition is what drives the prices up. Most of the farriers I know that are charging top dollar will ask you why you're not. It's much easier for us to charge alot if we're all charging alot. I don't go into a barn and find out how much the cheapest farrier is, I find out who the most expensive is, and sometimes I may adjust my prices accordingly.

I see a big black line between a successful self-employed person working hard and earning a good living by offering the best he can, amidts fair competion and a corporate hippo that controls more than just its business.

Business is business, big or small. It all runs on the same principals. That's what makes our country so great. If you can charge $1000 for a glass of lemonaid there is no one that can tell you that it's too much. Only the consumer. You hear people talk about how much their horse is worth. I have a client that's been trying to sell a Paint horse for 3 years, asking $30,000, appearently he's not worth that much. He's only worth what someone is willing to pay for him, again controlled by the consumer.

It does affect me, as I'm not trying to be a hack. I intend to be just as successful as any of you. Your skills are my goals. :D I want things like anyone else. I want a decent house, about 80 acres, reliable transportation and not having to fear the bill collectors. I don't desire EVERYTHING though. I don't expect everyone to want the same thing or have the same values, some want more than me, some want less. But if the lower limit is starvation, isn't the upper limit gross excess with no purpose? I'm sure that you stop working to enjoy your life now and then or spend time with other people. However, I really do see your point. Perhaps in a year or two, this will have been academic for me....but now, it seems senseless.

You mis-understood what I was saying. I meant that it wouldn't affect you if we took away 3/4 of your clients and gave them to someone else. Not that the gas prices don't affect you, they affect everyone. Most of us just charge more for our services unless the ponies are brought to us.

The money could come from all the wasted foreign aid, porkbarrel spending cuts and all the raises congress can stop giving themselves...to name a few sources. I know it's not simple...unless you have an army to simplify things(sorry, reflex).
As for collection on debts? Is your house payment a 30 yr mortgage or an infinite mortgage? 30 years sounds good. We could also pay some debt with that.

Agreed, however it won't happen. We will always be the big spender when it comes to foreign aid. Most countries don't like us very much so when we see an opportunity to buy them we do. The problem is, they still hate us, but they also got our money.

I was talking about the public. I understand that it is important for some development. It would be nice to see people stop using creditcards to buy 600 inch plasma screens that barely fit in the trailer and subsequently filing for bankruptcy

Agreed, however it won't happen. Credit has made it too easy for people to get things. It's up to the individual to use credit responsibly. It's been made too easy to file bankruptcy. There should be a harsher penalty, but there should also be a harsher penalty for murder, **** and alot of other crimes.

So gold is no longer determining value? Imaginaton is?

What happens when the value of the dollar goes down?

What happens when the value of the dollar goes up?

Dave

Hmmm, I miss family too....:( Wonder what broke things apart...?

In some places you can't go outside today. I ment Foriegn Aid primarily(and a few national programs) Put the money into the problems at home like overcrowded public schools.

^^...hmmmm. Maybe I will.

Thanks :)[/QUOTE]

Skinfaxi

08-03-2006, 09:09 PM

When the dollar goes up/down it is worth less/more. Down, effects foreign interest and our exporting positively. Up, makes our desire to import drop some. Among other things...I have some reading to do... :D

Hmm, I suppose I have more to think about. You said "It won't happen"...I don't like that. Anything can happen. Is this maybe one of those things you just swallow, and pretend it doesn't taste bad?? I have the toughest time with those.

Thanks Dave ^.^

*off to study and ponder some more*

J.H. shoeing

08-03-2006, 11:01 PM

Purves

I'd shoe two and maybe a front end. :D

Dave Purves

08-04-2006, 04:18 PM

Purves

I'd shoe two and maybe a front end. :D

Well Jeff, that's cause you're a greedy monopolist. :eek:

But that's OK, cause I would still work on 5 or 6 a day. Hopefully the feds wouldn't catch up to us and break up our business'. Perhaps I'll change the name of my business from Purves Farrier Service, to Exxon Professional Farriers, Inc.

what do you think?

Dave

Skinfaxi

08-04-2006, 05:20 PM

Good idea! Maybe you can lobby to get A shows to fall under government regulation. Then you can get a contract to work all of them. You could really expand that way.... :p (jk)

Jeremy D.

08-04-2006, 11:47 PM

Interesting post. I am not one usually to get involved in these discussions, however could not help myself. After reading the majority of the post I hear a lot of "Little man syndrome". Little man can't get ahead. I however disagree. I don't like the high fuel prices more than anyone else, but that doesn't stop me and the rest of America from taking Sunday drives, or not making a shopping list and only going to town once a week rather than 3-4 times a week. I read alot of post saying people still have to get to work-yes. However that is not what is keeping the fuel prices high, it is the unnessary driveing that most of America does. Like it was said, as long as we keep buying they'll see how high they can go. Also why are we mad about Wal-mart, Exxon, and so on. They got up off their lazy butt and did a thing called WORK. They didn't just go to a job, they worked. Each and everyone of them started small, had a plan and executed it. They ran their business better than their competitors, that is why their here and no one else is. It's not their fault, but their brilliance. Also why do you think the gov't fovors them? They left the cave, killed something and drug it home. They use their proffits to enhance the gov't way of thinking to help better themselves. Rather than ridiculeing them I am studying them, their methods, business models, thier thought process. Why? This is America money is power. There is no law that says we all can't get the tax breaks the big companies do, we just don't know how. I read a couple of mentions of DEBT. I have it, but don't like it. Debt does not hold the same power as cash. When you look at the large companies, wealthiest people, they all have one thing in common - NO DEBT. They didn't get debt free by being millionaires, they became millionaires by not haveing debt. So I do not buy into the whole debt extravaganza. Debt was brought on by someone with cash, and a plan to make more money. We as individuals do not need credit to prosper, we need a plan. Start small, grow slow, become wealthy, get tax breaks only the rich know of. So don't fuss about them, go thank them, they are useing their money to get laws changed to make it easier for you to become wealthy. Now that I have finished rambiling ya'll can pick this apart. Have fun, but remember THE BORROWER IS SLAVE TO THE LENDER.

Jeremy Davis, CJF

tbloomer

08-05-2006, 06:26 AM

Hmmm, I miss family too....:( Wonder what broke things apart...?
The religious right says that liberal values are responsible for breaking apart the family. I say it is Technology. First it was the television. Then came the video games and the computer. Now it's the multimedia mobile phone. Who needs a family when your every waking minute is filled with entertainment coming out of a device that fits in your shirt pocket? Just about anyone can have this technology because it only costs a few dollars a month.

Technology brings us INSTANT GRATIFICATION. Our society has grown accustomed to this way of life. My new Motorola Razor phone has a "Get it NOW" feature. I don't use that feature . . . but I see it advertised on TV quite a bit.

Sarah, you are part of a generation of society that has grown up with instant access to everything. That is not a reflection of who you are, it is just a fact of life that has to do with when you were born. The majority of the people in your generation do not know what it is to WANT, YEARN, or DREAM. It's hard to develop a passionate desire for anything when nothing is withheld.

So how will you get anybody excited about a gas boycott? In order for that to work, you've got to convince a bunch of people who are used to instant gratification to DELAY their GRATIFICATION in order to achieve a goal. Should you choose to take on that mission, think of yourself as a frog, and think of your fellow citizens as scorpions.

Have you considered converting to Amish?

tbloomer

08-05-2006, 06:44 AM

Rather than ridiculeing them I am studying them, their methods, business models, thier thought process. Why? This is America money is power. There is no law that says we all can't get the tax breaks the big companies do, we just don't know how.
I incorporated my farrier business this year. My company pays me a salary and benefits. As the president of a corporation I get to make big decisions, give myself a raise and a bonus. I got a $2600 dividend last quarter and didn't have to pay the 15% FICA and Medicare tax on it. That's almost $400 that I get to keep for myself because I'm a corporate big shot. :) I love this job!

Jeremy D.

08-05-2006, 07:25 AM

That is exactly what I am talking about. Educate ourselves more, and even though we are a small operation, we get large company savings and benefits.

Jeremy Davis, CJF

Andrew Grimm

08-05-2006, 10:48 AM

[QUOTE=tbloomer]I incorporated my farrier business this year. My company pays me a salary and benefits. As the president of a corporation I get to make big decisions, give myself a raise and a bonus. I got a $2600 dividend last quarter and didn't have to pay the 15% FICA and Medicare tax on it. That's almost $400 that I get to keep for myself because I'm a corporate big shot. :) I love this job!

Tom that's great. I met with my attorney last week to get the LLC process started.
I just got the professional farrier magazine yesterday and it's a good magazine that has good info. There were 2 articles that focused a little bit on business end of our job and I was excited to see that.

Andrew Grimm

Skinfaxi

08-05-2006, 11:04 AM

Sarah, you are part of a generation of society that has grown up with instant access to everything. That is not a reflection of who you are, it is just a fact of life that has to do with when you were born. The majority of the people in your generation do not know what it is to WANT, YEARN, or DREAM. It's hard to develop a passionate desire for anything when nothing is withheld.

*cries...then gets mad*

So how will you get anybody excited about a gas boycott? In order for that to work, you've got to convince a bunch of people who are used to instant gratification to DELAY their GRATIFICATION in order to achieve a goal. Should you choose to take on that mission, think of yourself as a frog, and think of your fellow citizens as scorpions.

Ouch. erm...used to instant gratification to DELAY their GRATIFICATION That goes aginst my sciences education. So this froggy aught to make a paper mache stinger, and crawl instead of hop?

Have you considered converting to Amish?

The thought of that or something similar has crossed my mind, but I'm not religous at all.

I incorporated my farrier business this year. My company pays me a salary and benefits. As the president of a corporation I get to make big decisions, give myself a raise and a bonus. I got a $2600 dividend last quarter and didn't have to pay the 15% FICA and Medicare tax on it. That's almost $400 that I get to keep for myself because I'm a corporate big shot. I love this job!

Work smarter not harder? ;)....I'm working on it. I have to come to terms with a few things I guess...meh.

tbloomer

08-05-2006, 03:10 PM

Have you considered converting to Amish?

"The thought of that or something similar has crossed my mind, but I'm not religous at all." Said Sarah.

For a moment disregard the religious aspect of the Amish lifestyle and think about the wealth that these people have achieved in their society. Big oil, big government, big technology, war, peace, natural disasters . . . they take care of their own and they don't need any of the conveniences that we "English" take for granted - you know like running water and electricity. As one of my buddies used to say, “None of my tax dollars ever went to support an Amish person.”

Skinfaxi

08-05-2006, 04:15 PM

For a moment disregard the religious aspect of the Amish lifestyle and think about the wealth that these people have achieved in their society. Big oil, big government, big technology, war, peace, natural disasters . . . they take care of their own

In that case, I would say yes.

Realistically as an 90%(lol) atheist, it would be no good. There is the religon factor...that is major, it is a big part of what holds them together. It is nice to think about, however the peaceful commune only works on the small scale. Besides, women are not farriers in thier culture. :D

No, no...this discussion has me thinking alot about how much I will have to change to win. *glues on the paper tail and hopes it won't fall off* It's good for me in the long run...

cordell_rogers

08-05-2006, 04:28 PM

[QUOTE]
Tom that's great. I met with my attorney last week to get the LLC process started.
I just got the professional farrier magazine yesterday and it's a good magazine that has good info. There were 2 articles that focused a little bit on business end of our job and I was excited to see that.Andrew Grimm

Tom,
I love it - good work.
Cordell

Andrew,
LLC is a little less maintenance and easier than an S-corp, but LLCs don't allow the payroll tax savings and the same health benefits advantages of an S-Corp. S-Corps are a little more difficult, but if you want to get fancy and do some of the creative stuff, you're better off incorporating. If you are looking to separate your business & personal stuff and offer some liability protection - forming an LLC is the way to go.
Cordell

Andrew Grimm

08-06-2006, 10:04 AM

[QUOTE=cordell_rogers]Andrew,
LLC is a little less maintenance and easier than an S-corp, but LLCs don't allow the payroll tax savings and the same health benefits advantages of an S-Corp.

Cordell, Thank you. I'm kindoff frustrated not knowing if I'm making the right decision or not. My cpa never said anything about what you mentioned above. I don't want to spend $725 on filling to be LLC. to find out I should've gone S-corp. I just want to do the right thing; the smartest thing. I don't care about extra maintenance if it saves money and still offers the liability protection.

S-Corps are a little more difficult, but if you want to get fancy and do some of the creative stuff, you're better off incorporating. If you are looking to separate your business & personal stuff and offer some liability protection - forming an LLC is the way to go.
Cordell

I hire a CPA to take care of the difficult, and fancy stuff. I am looking for the liability protection however if a S-corp is more advantageous than that's what I'd rather go with. What should I do? Nothing's finalized right now I have the papers sitting on my desk.

Thanks Cordell. I enjoy reading, and learning from the things you write.

Andrew Grimm

brian robertson

08-06-2006, 12:56 PM

CAUTION! If your business is a LLC and you or your employee screws up and the client seeks compensation for damages you are not "off the hook".

The plaintiff's counsel would be derelict in his duties if he did not file suit against the LLC AND who ever had anything to do with the shoeing process. Your liability includes the horse, the facility and/or persons injured or damaged while conducting your services. LLC is not the silver bullet to save you. Incorporation is only one layer of protection and it will only require the plaintiff to spend a little more $ to file additional pieces of paper to come after you personally. It's not a very good shield.

Also your legal expenses will be higher defending a LLC vs a Sole Prop. regardless of the outcome.

Consult with your counsel; there is now lots LLC case law.

A LLC might bluff a wacko into not filing suit but it certainly won't keep away the wackos with good counsel.

Seperate your business assets from personal assets by placing your goodies in a trust (good estate planning by the way.) Then if you lose, the plaintiff is entitled to your shoeing business and that's it. The next day you get another DBA and start anew and the plaintiff can know the joys of a shoeing business.

Andrew Grimm

08-06-2006, 01:22 PM

tbloomer

08-06-2006, 05:46 PM

LLC or Corporation only protects you from liability from CREDITORS. If you borrow money as an LLC or a Corp, the liability is limited to the assets owned by the LLC or the corp. In a legal tort case, there IS NO PROTECTION from personal liability. If you or your employee is held accountable for malpractice, you are BOTH responsible personally for your actions as individuals.

Otherwise doctors would incorporate and not worry about having malpractice insurance. So the term limited liability only applies to protecting your personal assets from being included in a bankruptcy proceeding or a foreclosure. This is why so many building contractors change companies at the drop of a hat. They run up a bunch of debt, file bankruptcy, liquidate, and then start up a new company the next day.

If you have an LLC or a corp, run up a bunch of unsecured debt in the company name, and then file bankruptcy, your creditors cannot take your personal property to secure the debt. Funny thing. If you have a small business that is an S. corp or an LLC, nobody is going to loan you money anyway, unless you are willing to back it up with a lien on your personal property. Once you become a cosigner or guarantor on a loan made to your company, you have just eliminated the liability protection.

To my way of thinking an LLC is a waste of paperwork. You still have to pay the 15% Medicaid and FICA taxes on every penny you take out of the company in profit. As an S Corp, your salary is taxed for the 15% Medicaid and FICA, but your quarterly dividends are taxed as regular dividend income – according to the tax tables. The way I see it, I get to keep 15% of every dollar that I pay myself in quarterly dividends instead of giving it to Congress to spend on pork.

tbloomer

08-06-2006, 05:55 PM

[QUOTE]
I don't want to spend $725 on filling to be LLC. to find out I should've gone S-corp.

It cost me $750 to file as an S Corp. Besides that I get to call myself The President! Isn't the title President better than Limited Partner?

Tom Bloomer, RJF
PRESIDENT
Blackburn Forge, Inc. . . . I like it.

Andrew Grimm

08-06-2006, 07:42 PM

Tom,
Thanks. I just emailed my CPA. Seems like he should've explained this to me in the first place.

Andrew Grimm

J.H. shoeing

08-07-2006, 12:28 AM

Dave

I don't know if you would be able to make it on 25-30K a week. The Exxon Horseshoeing Co. would need to pay you as the president a slightly larger wage.

:D

tbloomer

08-07-2006, 07:18 AM

Tom,
Thanks. I just emailed my CPA. Seems like he should've explained this to me in the first place.

Andrew Grimm
The question still remains, can you live on a small salary for 3 months and then pay out a dividend at the end of the quarter? Your salary is the money that you live on. So if you can't pay your monthly bills, you're going to have to increase your salary. Any profit that you take besides quarterly dividends will be treated by the IRS as salary and taxed the 15% FICA. This is where small businesses run into trouble when they incorporate. You have to budget your dividends so that they last through the quarter. Maybe that is why your CPA did not recommend incorporating.

My salary is only about $500/week. I pay out quarterly dividends to myself and my wife. We put the dividends into a savings account and use that money to pay bills for the next 3 months. This works great for us because we started out with a good financial plan and a solid business strategy. Not only is my business incorporated, but I run it like a corporation. I can't afford to think like a sole proprietor. My projected tax savings . . . about $5000 at the end of 2006.

If you live hand to mouth, you may as well stick with the sole proprietor form of business. Living like that, you don't have much to loose anyway.