why shoes are important

[Gary_Miller]

Not sure where to but this but wanted to place it in a new tread. These are some thoughts I had after reading the stuff on why to stay bare foot.

While I was a kid growing up I was always taught that the main reasons for shoeing was because of the opvious. On a western saddle horse you are placing an extra 200 lbs plus on a animal then working then for any where from 1 hour to all day which puts extra stress on the horses hooves and the purpose for the shoe is to protect the foot. With out this protection the hooves have a tendencey to chip and crack.

We rased several wild horses taken of the red desert by Rocksprings wyoming. (This was back at the biging of BLMs program when they gave the animals away.) This is a very dry rocky place. Even though thier hooves were really tough. When we started working them hard it was necessary for shoes due to the extra stress place on the animal due to weight.

In todays world where alot of animals are only used in soft arenas and pasters for short periods of time it may not be necessary to have shoes. But in my opion just to go bare foot because wild horses dont wear shoes in the wild is one of the biggest mistakes we can make. This is due to the use is diffrent than the natual wild horse.

I read alot on these posts abouot lame horses and just don't really get it I never had a lame horse due to hoof problems such as brusing or abcesses. Usully if we had a lame horse it was due to a human mistake such as fence not repaired, junk in the paster or an animal getting a rope because of stake out and not being watched carfully.

I gues what I'm trying to say is that. This no shoe workd is alot of bunk. Not sure if this is a good statement but my guess is if you looked in to the reason for lameness (with the exceptioin of founder). Its due to keeping a barefoot horse and then working them to the point of sourness due to the extra stress place on them form weight.

I could be wrong. It would be intersting to hear from some of you more experianced farriers on your veiws and observations.

Still a rooky but getting there quickly. One more month left before shoeing class.

Gary

[Dances with Hooves]

[QUOTE=millergs]This is due to the use is diffrent than the natual wild horse.

In most cases the use is less. Wild horses move 15-20 miles a day on very abrasive terrain.

I read alot on these posts abouot lame horses and just don't really get it I never had a lame horse due to hoof problems such as brusing or abcesses. Usully if we had a lame horse it was due to a human mistake such as fence not repaired, junk in the paster or an animal getting a rope because of stake out and not being watched carfully.

I gues what I'm trying to say is that. This no shoe workd is alot of bunk. Not sure if this is a good statement but my guess is if you looked in to the reason for lameness (with the exceptioin of founder). Its due to keeping a barefoot horse and then working them to the point of sourness due to the extra stress place on them form weight.

I must strongly disagree. In my experience most lameness is due to feet that are not balanced properly and feet that are trimmed and or shod with an excessively long toe and too much heel.

I believe the rational middle ground between the radical barefooters and the 4 shoes perimeter fit on all horses crowd is best represented by the research and guidelines that follow from that reasearch of the likes of Dr. Bowker, Dr Redden, and Gene Ovinick

I find its amazing what many horses trimmed this way can do. We rescued Rupurt the TB from the meat buyers 3 years ago. He was 6 suffering from oselets so bad he left bloody footprints in the snow. I pulled his aluminum race plates and left him barefoot in a NB trim for the winter. I shod him in NB plastic shoes for his first summer as my daughters dressage prospect. After another winter barefoot just for fun we decided to see what he could do. Darned if he went just fine over all kinds of terrain. My daughter can gallop him over some of the gravel roads with golf ball sized rocks that my other horses gingerly tip toe across and they wear shoes. So for a horse like rupurt a good natural trim is best.

I ride a QH mare 20 yrs named skeeter. Skeeters not lame on the trails without shoes but shes much happier with shoes. in the 3 years I have been riding her we have developed a strong partnership. Without sounding too new agey you need to believe that she told me a few years ago that she would like shoes. (Now really its was probably me observing a lack of impulsion on the road then the horse becoming more forward on the softer shoulder, but to me thats her telling me something). I keep skeeter shod all round except in the winter when I ride only in the indoor. I am meticulos with her as with all the horses in my care about breakover and proper frog support the lack of which I feel (although many will disagree) is the root of all lameness. On her feet correct breakover is best achived with NB shoes front and hind. On others that I shoe I use an eventer or an SX-8 with a rolled toe. Horses like skeeter even though they only get to go riding on weekends need shoes.

I like to say that you should never say never, dont say always and usually say usually. Anyone who tells me that they always use this or that trim never varying from the guidelines or never shoe any horse cause they always must go barefoot or that all horses need 4 shoes and that they must be shod exactly this or that way shows me that they are not thinking criticaly and openly.

I am amazed that when man first domesticated horses 3 problems arose.

1.) the darn feet are growing more than when the sucker was wild how should we trim them?

2.) What should we feed the suckers if we let them out to ramble the praire we wont be able to find them when we need them.

3.) Hopped on and got bucked off, how shall we train the suckers so they go where we want to when we want to and dont hurt us.

So we have had what 6,000 years or so to work out how trim/shoie , feed and train the horse. And (given the very vigorous discussions that can be found all over the net) we have not reached any sort of consensus on hoofcare, nutrition and training of the horse. Without consensus horseowners, farriers and vets, trainers etc. are left to work out what makes sense to them. Its a far more complex endeavor to be a farrier than say an electrician or a plumber. Those professionals can wire and plumb to the code. Their guidelines are meant to be followed. Ours are ment to be broken making farriery part art and part science.

I wish you good luck at farrier school. BTW at school do study and practice the school solution. That will be your first set of guidelines. You will then find that there are (as in most professions) 3 ways to do the work. The way they taught you at school, the way you do it for an exam (in our case certification) and they way you do it in the real world to make the horses happy. This last way is a journey... and its endless... like a doctor or a vet a good farrier should always be learning and modifying what he or she does based on new science or new observations about what is working best for the horses under his or her care.

George

[dean selvey]

george spear has said alot in his reply. i could not agree with him more. i have learned in my short life that just because we have been doing something a certain way doesnt mean there is not a better way to do things.if you take a wild horse and put him in a domestic enviroment you then have a problem of how to care for his feet.in the wild it has moved up to 35miles per day in rocky and abrasive ground thus keeping its feet as perfect as can be .in a domestic enviroment it is very diffecult to simulate this so the horse has to have some way to trim its self .[chipping and cracking]a healthy hoof can need to be trimmed as often as every three wks. that doesnt mean that you would have to use your sharpe knife and nippers but maybe a few swipes with a file. i have yet to see many horses become sore do to carrying extra weigth i have however seen them become tender footed due to improper care. [somebody not knowing what there trying to acheive in the trim.] i see even more horses with problems when people shoe them just because they think they have to. as for research on lameness the people george mentioned are doing more reseach than the average person can keep up with. also good luck at shoeing school i hope you have checked out mission farrier school.

[Gary_Miller]

Dean and george
Thanks for your replys you are providing the kind of information and argument I was looking for when I posted this tread. I had just been reading the tread on the stassor trim clinic and these thought came to mind so wanted to hear what other had to say. I know my thoughts are not all exclusive but just what i've experiance this far in my life working with horses. My experiance is by know means as extensive as you folks on this web site. So I wanted to hear more about the subject.

Dean, I did check out mission school though the internet and found it to be a very good school from what I seen. Unfortuntly it is to far from home for me to go as I don't want to leave my family for a long perioid of time. I just retired from the Air Force and have been gone far to often to do it again right now. So I have to settle for the class thought at the local college and then a lot of book learning and the school of hard knocks. The class is thaught by a really good competent local AFA Journyman Farrier, Pat Smith, who comes highly recommended by my current Farrier as this is wear he started. I am conserned that I won't get all I need as it only a four week course. I talked to my farrier about it and he said it a good class and I will learn most of what I need. Anyway the good thing is the instructor and my farrier is close by and willing to help if needed. I hope I can ride with them some after the class so I can get more educated on the job. There are lots of varables and unknows so we shall see where this ride takes us.

I look forward from hearinf from others on this subject of why shoes are or are not important.

Still a rooky

Gary

[caballus]

OK. Posted a couple of photos of hooves BEFORE care:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/services/amazin1.jpg

http://www.barefoottrim.com/services/amazin3.jpg

This horse has wobbler syndrome. Just for discussion sake - What would you do with these feet?

--caballus

[Dave Purves]

Oh, how simple life is, what would I do with these feet? First tell me what they do with the horse, what kind of horse is it, where does it live, what does it eat, how much time does it spend in a stall or in a pasture, how old is the horse? For argument sake let's say it is a 12 year old QH that lives in it's stall 24/7 since it is a wobbler, it eats 15lbs of sweet feed a day and they do nothing with this animal and they do have access to good turn out. If that is the case then I would give him a good trim and tell them to turn him out in a pasture with some buddies. However if this is a 12 year old TB that does eventing and they want to go compete in Ohio next week were I know we've had a couple inches of rain the last week or so, then I would give him a good trim, make a couple of shoes out of concave and drill and tap them for studs so that at least I know the horse has a little traction when jumping 4' cross country fences in the slop. My job is to keep the horse and rider sound and safe if I can. It's not my job to tell the owner that they are not allowed to go to an event in Ohio cause it has rained there and they will have no traction, it's my job to provide the traction. I give management tips to owners all the time, but many don't have the necessary amount of pasture maybe one or two acres for two or three horses, they love their animals but don't have the money or resources to buy more land. I give advice and then do as much as I can to help the horse in the conditions that it lives and perform at whatever tasks the owner, rider, or trainer want to perform. Don't sit on your high horse and pretend that your way is the only way cause it's not. There are thousands upon thousands of horses out there that couldn't go barefoot solely for the purpose of the way they are used, now compound the fact that they are a class a jumper with lameness problems and not showing is not an option and you tell me what you would do with these feet?
Dave Purves CF :D

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Gary, I have experienced pretty much the same thing. In my 20 plus years owning horses, very rarely did we have lameness in the feet. Most of the lameness issues we had were not even near the feet. Cuts, s****es, getting hung up in gates, wires, equipment, other horses the list goes on. We have dealt with an abscesses now and then, but this is also rare. I believe most of the foot diseases and lameness come from strenuous activities and disciplines for example cross country, Hunts, jumper causing navicular and heel pain and sprains and breaks, Reiners, Barrel racers causing joint problems and fractures. Race horses and popped splints and fractured or remodeled coffin bones, conformation faults and breeds doing the wrong job, poor riding and training. Shoes for traction, support and protection are important to me, because I do not have the ideal footing to train and condition in, unless I trailer my horses to an indoor or a place with a decent riding ring. Even good riding rings require shoeing for support and protection because of the soft deep footing can be hard on upper joints tendons and muscle groups and abrasive on the hoof wall and sole. It is obvious how much better my horses are shod front and hind, there not distracted when stepping on rocks or hard ground, much more confident and comfortable which makes it easier for me to train and condition them right in my backyard and on the trails. I use to pull shoes in the winter to give them a break from shoeing, however I rarely find the need to do this, especially since my trimming has improved over time from experience, attending clinics and seminars hosted by the AFA, Natural Balance and barefoot trimmers. The Natural Balance trim principles and the AFA are great for obtaining a balanced foot that is strong and healthy. You will find there are many groups that really do see eye to eye and agree on many of the principles today, they may not explain it the same way, however if you study them closely there pretty much the same. It seem like everyone is in consensus on heel height, just not in agreement on toe length and breakover. Frog support seems to be a controversial area, but I think this depends on your location. I have found that feet maintained on a regular schedule, propper nutrition and exercise, trimmed properly using common sense to not be to invasive, correct breakover (whatever you think works for you) and heel height (Universal Sole Thickness or Natural Balance, Duckets Dot), healthy frog and properly shod really helps competitive horses a lot. I have no problem with horses going barefoot, it all depends what they do for a job and where they live.

[caballus]

Hey Dave ... no high horse here and I honestly posted for discussion sake - not for argument sake. So you don't need to be defensive - I'm not out prowling. ;) Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...

OK, background -- 17 year old Warmblood. Stalled at night; turned out to minimal grass paddock day. Not ridden at all as Wobbler's affects the cervical vertebrae and messaging system to the brain causing ataxia. Not very safe to ride.

She eats maybe 4 - 6# of complete pellet and all the hay she will eat. That's it, I believe. I have not advised any changes in feed or environment or husbandry (other than to keep up w/regular trimming -- it makes a huge difference in her comfort and ability to move semi-correctly.)

Now, if she were NOT Wobbler and could be ridden and was ridden recreationally several times a week, I don't think I'd do anything differently than what I did do. (I'll post photos of the hooves after the 2nd trim shortly)
I was interested in what others would do, though, and if there was anyone who would apply special shoes and why?

OH ... one more thing, Dave -- my "high horse" is merely my opinion just as you have opinions and beliefs. I believe that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions and there are no right or wrong ones, correct? In the long run none of our opinions are going to count for much if the horse doesn't agree ...

;) --cab

[Ronald Aalders]

What I would do with these feet?
Uh..........



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

What I would do with those feet? Well since the term Wobbler Syndrome is so vaque. I would want to find out what the prognosis and treatment is, if the treatment includes the use of corticosteroids then I would be conerned with laminitis. So I quess I do not know what I would do with those feet yet. How about pictures of the hind end and the hind feet. Also pictures of the whole horse would help. I like to observe the whole horse when makeing decisisons, I also like to watch them move and I also like to talk to others involved with the horse, owner, Trainer, manager, Vet or whoever has a vested interest in the horse. Is she a breeding horse? I would question the feed, most complete feeds are nothing but compressed grass and most of the time the nutritional value is inconsistant and hay is the same way. Who knows what this horse is lacking nutritionaly.

[Bill Adams]

Phil,
Not to be overly technical or officious (this statement is usually followed by someone being overly technical and officious) the term is Uniform, not Universal, Sole Thickness. This is somewhat a pet peave of the folks reserching and teaching this method. Apperently it hasen't been tested in every galaxy yet so they can't claim that it is in fact, universal.


Caballus,
I'll bite.
As this horse has been diganosed with a spine problem in it's neck, I'll be sure not to tie it so if (when) it pulls back it won't cause any more neck problems on my watch.
As I don't think I can heal it's spinal compresion with my first set of shoes, I think I should get the feet so that they are comfortable and the horse is moving freely.
From only looking at the bottom of the foot, I would trim to the UST and set an eventer with the toe rolled even more, back to just in front of the white line fit full behind and boxed well. On the hinds I'd square the toe and set it back with a nice blunt toe to alow breakover and prevent damage to the front bulbs as these horses with wobbles will over reach sometimes.
If the horse has tender feet, I'd put Equi-pac in or a sole paint. The walls look kinda weak for pads (I could do pads if I wanted to, but why fight when there's Equthane).
As to the distorted foot, gota see the horse for that one.

Now, taking the wobbles and distortion out of the equasion, lets say the horse was a bit tender from the neglect that made it's feet look like the picture you showed. From experiance I know that a horse like this that limps up to the truck to be shod, an hour or so later will be running and throwing it's head, bucking and farting, ready to go soundly on a nice trail ride.
I know that by proper triming and exercise that eventualy it would be sound barefoot (if its conformation would allow). I have to ask though, why pester the poor thing? Put some shoes on and go for a ride.

My $0.02,
Bill

P.S. Good question from Dave as to the barefoot perscription.
Also, is your name realy "Caballus"? As it is read from left to right, that is the "hind end" of the latin name for horse. Thought you should know.

[caballus]

caballus as in "Equus caballus", the Latin term for "Domestic Horse" ... and NOW I understand the comment directed towards being a Horse's A** !!! Was not aware of the that meaning of the word ... *LOL* Which is better, tho ... being a "Smart A**" or a "Horse's A**" ??? ;)


--cab

I'

[Bill Adams]

Cal,
I've always thought Smart *** was superior to the other options as I am gifted in that way.

Answer to Dave's post as to what to do for the class A jumper?

Bill

[Gary_Miller]

Well as you all know I'm no farrier yet, but here is what I would have done and what I'd do now if this was my horse.

The first thing I would of done is not let my horse get this way in the first place. I'd not feed the pellet feed(the only good use for pellets is if I'm packing in to the high country and need to take feed).I would have made sure she had some good grass alfala mix hay. Grass because it good for her and alfala to drive her nuts trying to get the last leaf flake mixed in the grass. It keeps the horse busy. LOL. Kept out of a box (Thats my term for a stall). And I would have kept shoes on her from the time she was three, so she could be happy when ridden anytime and anywhere we wanted to go.

But what now since she is in this condtion. I'm not sure what wobbles is but from the pics and the discriptioin given. The best thing to do for this horse now is what Ronald suggested from his pic. Put her down there is no sane reason to keep a horse this old and with all these problems locked up in a BOX with just a little time turned out. She has no quality of life. I know if I told a client this they would propably no longer be my client. But I guess I don't need clients who take care of their animals this way.

I suggest you offer to haul her away to the glue factory for them.

This is my humble opion.

Still a Rooky

Gary

PS: Phil, just as I was posting my first post that started this tread. My kids come in and tell me the horse is bleeding above her hoof. So I go out and sure enough she is flowing from a cut right above her bulbs where the hoof and hair line come togeather. Not sure what she found in the paster.
She is OK and not lame. In fact the kids rode her right after we fixed her up. Boy she's a lucky horse to have the love these kids give her. Since last winter she was starved and removed from her privous owner by the human seciety. But thats another story I may tell someday.

[caballus]

OK ... well, here's the trim:

http://barefoottrim.com/services/amazin2.jpg

http://barefoottrim.com/services/amazin4.jpg

Both fronts trimmed; both rockered just a tad. Horse took off in the paddock after being turned back out with a buck, **** and then a little spin on the haunches to gallop. She did well. The hinds were not remarkable so did not take photos of them. The only thing I remember from the first trim and her hinds were that she walked as if she had a 2 X 6 stuck right up her wazoo before she was trimmed up. I trimmed one hind and walked her out. She tracked up straight with the trimmed hoof and made huge sideways arcs with her untrimmed hind. When I finished the other hind she tracked up straight on both sides and walked like a normal horse again. I question her diagnosis, actually, because now she *does* buck and spin whereas she was not able to for a very long time; or so I'm told. But, I know the person who did the diagnosis KNOWS what to look for ... so, guess this gal will have an easy life for the duration. She'll be trimmed every month then be at ease out with the herd ... what a life, huh? I can think of worse, that's for sure! Can't do too much with the contracted heels cause she lives on soft ground. Oh well ...

:) --cab

[Dave Purves]

Sorry I got a little miphed, but you can't really just post some pictures with no background info and expect a good answer. Anyway, I'm assuming the top picture is the right front, that foot has some trouble, I would guess that the reason for the medial heel being higher than the lateral is that it is a little "clubby", why did you not trim that heel back balanced with the other? or are they balanced? From the bottom it looks like the medial heel could come back quite a bit more to be balanced with the lateral, understanding this is just from the bottom of the foot and I can't see what the foot looks like bearing weight. Also what does soft ground have to do with not treating the contracted heels? Just wondering.
and what would you do if this horse was a class A jumper that had to go show tomarrow excluding the fact that it is a wobbler? Inquiring minds want to know.
Dave Purves CF :D

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
Not to be overly technical or officious (this statement is usually followed by someone being overly technical and officious) the term is Uniform, not Universal, Sole Thickness. This is somewhat a pet peave of the folks reserching and teaching this method. Apperently it hasen't been tested in every galaxy yet so they can't claim that it is in fact, universal.


Hi Bill It should be "Universal". I think I will coin that phrase. Thanks for pointing that out. I was typing fast, becuase I was getting nagged about being on the computer when I had chores to do. Sometimes I can't wait to see what is going on or what someone might have replied. :)

Hey Gary, hope your horse is OK, case and point another paddock related injury. We should keep track of them. there more common than we realise I quess.

Caballus or should we say "Domestic Horse" Nice job on the trim.

[caballus]

No problem, Dave -- you're allowed to get as miphed as you want! ;)
I didn't give any background for a reason. Just wanted to read some variants. That's all. :) The heels are trimmed in balance. It's hard to see with the depth perception (or lack of) with a digital camera. They are in balance so the horse stands with its hooves in balance and on a level plane according to her hairline and stance. It's a beginning with lots more to follow. And to be honest, because I don't *do* A circuit jumpers, I don't know that I would do anything differently. I do the lower level dressage horses barefoot with the same type of trim that I do for any horse. Also, competitive trail horses and endurance horses. Just make sure the hooves are balanced and level and that the horse is landing and walking straight out in accordance to its own way of going. I would think that it would be absolutely more imperative to be sure of balance and level for jumpers ... with all the weight on landing the hooves should be as near perfect as possible. If you're asking if I'd put on shoes? Well, I guess that one would depend on the horse. I've always had barefoot horses. No, I wasn't a jumper competitively (except for small shows) but my horses were all jumping over 4 ft. without issues. One used to routinely jump 5+ without problems (yeah, tell me about it! Couldn't keep her in a paddock without 7 ft. fencing! and she'd jump from a standstill, too.) except that she was being trimmed at the time for a club foot which, later on, turned out to be clubbed only because of the trim. (I wasn't trimming her at the time.) The horses all worked pretty much all day, too, in a lesson program and on the roads and trails. So, I guess I can't honestly answer you, Dave, about what I would do. I don't think I'd do much differently than I do now.

Thank you, Phil for your comment on the trim. I appreciate it. :) I think she (the horse) likes it, too!

--cab

[caballus]

Oh, forgot to address the contracted heels and soft ground. Sorry!

Around here in New England the horses have it a bit tough. They mostly live on soft ground then are expected to go out and trailride on rocky, hard trails. The heels tend to grow longer on hard ground only cause they don't have the abrasiveness of hard ground. The longer heels also provide a bit more traction BUT the ground doesn't allow for full expansion of the hoof during loading so the hooves don't expand in the heel area as they would on a horse living on dry, hard, packed dirt. The ground pressure just "ain't there". Thus, we have a lot of contractions around here. Contracted heels, as you know, allow thrush and yeast to set in quite easily. So, it's a constant battle that goes on ... Oh well, we do the best we can with what we've got. More frequent trims do help with this situation - every 4 weeks or so.

:) --cab

[smitty88]

i shoe a brood mare with the problem of been a wobbler
you have to work quick incase she happens to loose
all balance.
but looking at some of the feet you get to dress on this forum
amazes me
who lets these poor horses get like this
shoes or no shoes do they even get dressed?
i would be reporting these owners
i would hope these are one offs

[calshoer]

I would trim using the sole plane as I would any foot. Good starting point . Preserve live sole, conservatively remove dead, roll the toes a bit to the sole callous, make sure the foot was balanced to the sole.
After that, as to deciding on whether to shoe or not it would depend on too many other factors to try to guess here...lifestyle, work, howe comfortble he is barefoot, etc.
BTW It appears you have left a ton of retained sole in the narrower foot....don't you have any nippers?
If you grabbed the sole in the heel quarter at the lateral side ,in the sole wall junction where all that deep chalky crud is, a whole crescent of retained sole would pop right out. Here is a picture of a similar one.
Patty

[Jim Sweeney]

Caballus, nice job on the trim but I have also trimmed 1/2 dozen giant warmblood wobblers over the last twenty years and after a point it is wise not to get under these beasts. For people who insisted on keeping them around I would cow trim it with their feet still on the ground, but even though it sounds crude it is better than lying under one as it struggles to get up.