The Appology

[Bill Adams]

I just read the appology from Dave Ferguson. I accept, and forgive.
Bill

[Derin Foor]

Sometimes the silence is deafening.

Derin

[Rick Burten]

I read the apology too. Convenient how some of the facts presented in the letter have spun around and came of differently.

I still neither condone what was done nor does the apology change much for me.

Honesty and integrity should be paramount in what we want from our leader(s). The is apparently lacking and many are ready to look the other way. I'm not. It is still my position that Mr. Ferguson should resign his office and let a better man or woman lead the AFA.

[Derin Foor]

I read the apology too. Convenient how some of the facts presented in the letter have spun around and came of differently.
amazing isn't it ??.... the 'sweep it under the rug and move on' machine is in full swing........ and the AFA wonders why it is having a hard time retaining members?!?!?

I still neither condone what was done nor does the apology change much for me.

nor for me..... the facts remain the same

Honesty and integrity should be paramount in what we want from our leader(s). The is apparently lacking and many are ready to look the other way. I'm not. It is still my position that Mr. Ferguson should resign his office and let a better man or woman lead the AFA.
why can't there be a re-election held to see if this is really what the AFA membership wants ?.. what would it cost, a little postage?. perhaps then we would see whether the members want a president with an agenda and a past to prove it or someone that is interested in the future of the AFA and its ability to lead and be a positive influence in the farrier industry

something to think about.........

Derin

[davewalker]

Kinda takes the shine off those CJF buckles, doesn't it....
I had hoped to see some semblance of conscience from the leadership that was proven through their actions that they had our best interests at heart. Instead, we've been reduced to serfs who must accept the decisions of the king whether they help us or not.
Personally, I'm still hopeful the mid year meeting will yield enough dissent to effect change.

[Phil Armitage]

How convienent, now the AFA can blame non-retention and low membership on the new AFA President. Couldnt be possible that others in the Org. are at fault at all, they are all perfect and the AFA was perfect before the New President was elected. Yea right. Rick if it bothers you that much you have to ask your self if you can live with it or not, if you can't you should not renew your membership if you can live with it, let it go.

The way I see it Dave has done the AFA a favor by putting the spot light on himself and takeing it off all the politics and lack of attention on proper education. Good grief. We had a word for that in the military, "Scape Goat"

[tbloomer]

........ and the AFA wonders why it is having a hard time retaining members?!?!?
Derin

How many AFA members were/are informed about what happened? What method of communication was used to inform them? Though I am not a member of the AFA, I am a chapter member. My chapter president took the time to investigate the situation and bring the information he had to the attention of the members. I have not heard anything about this from my chapter since . . . therefore I assume that whatever happened within the AFA does not affect my chapter.

I am curious to know how many AFA members actually know what happened. Who was responsible for providing this information to the members? Was it left up to the individual BOD reps? If so, how can we know that every member, or even a majority of the membership, got the whole story?

I believe that the only way to measure the impact of this situation is to wait for a whole year and see how many members renew their membership. Meanwhile, any new members coming to the AFA will not likely know anything about this. It's not like it was reported on CNN . . .

I put an entry in my calendar for April 1, 2007. That allows enough time for the AFA to get through two board meetings and a convention. Let's see what happens.

[tbloomer]

Good grief. We had a word for that in the military, "Scape Goat"

Um . . . that term comes from the "Old Testament."

FYI: The Scape Goat was not sacrificed; it was set free in the wilderness bearing the sins of the collective. The sacrificial lamb, which represented the messiah (who had never sinned), was burned as a live sacrifice.

In order for someone to be held up as a scape goat, the AFA would have to blame them for all of their sins, and then send them packing FOR EVER. Therefore, I do not see anyone being used as a scape goat.

OTOH, the general membership of the AFA may unwittingly be burned alive . . . which appears to have been the MO of the priests of the AFA since Walt parted the Red Sea with his secret manifesto.

[tbloomer]

Kinda takes the shine off those CJF buckles, doesn't it....
I had hoped to see some semblance of conscience from the leadership that was proven through their actions that they had our best interests at heart. Instead, we've been reduced to serfs who must accept the decisions of the king whether they help us or not.
Personally, I'm still hopeful the mid year meeting will yield enough dissent to effect change.

This is where the AFA loyalists will jump in and say that as a member you should step up to the plate and do something about it. You know, put up or shut up . . .

So, as a preemptive answer for the loyalists who would encourage this kind of action from an individual, I have only two words; Rick Burten.

[Phil Armitage]

Um . . . that term comes from the "Old Testament."

FYI: The Scape Goat was not sacrificed; it was set free in the wilderness bearing the sins of the collective. The sacrificial lamb, which represented the messiah (who had never sinned), was burned as a live sacrifice.

In order for someone to be held up as a scape goat, the AFA would have to blame them for all of their sins, and then send them packing FOR EVER. Therefore, I do not see anyone being used as a scape goat.

OTOH, the general membership of the AFA may unwittingly be burned alive . . . which appears to have been the MO of the priests of the AFA since Walt parted the Red Sea with his secret manifesto.

These things take time, like boiling a frog you start with cold water and turn up the heat slowly, never notices it.

[Rick Burten]

Rick if it bothers you that much you have to ask your self if you can live with it or not, if you can't you should not renew your membership if you can live with it, let it go.
Until my membership expires, I will not let it go. Depending on the outcome of the mid-year, my decision as to whether or not remain a member of the AFA will be made.

And, even should I decide to remain a member while the unconvicted self-admitted felon reamins in office , I will not let it go. You would look the other way. Strange behavior for someone who stood up for a little boy who was being harrased by an adult in a public place. It would appear that your ethics and sense of right and justice are rather fungible.

[Gary Hill]

Tom ,funny you picked April 1 , Fools Day!

[tbloomer]

Tom ,funny you picked April 1 , Fools Day!

Is it safe to assume that you do not have blond hair? :)




TB

[tbloomer]

These things take time, like boiling a frog you start with cold water and turn up the heat slowly, never notices it.
Grilled lamb, boiled frog . . .

'roud these parts we serve steamed crabs. Now let's see how sharp your reflexes are.

This month I celebrated my 46th birthday . . .


. . . let's see if you can put 7 and 7 together. :)

[Gary Hill]

I love Seagrams and 7 Up! I tell the bartender to make me a 14 and this is what he makes?

[tbloomer]

These things take time, like boiling a frog you start with cold water and turn up the heat slowly, never notices it.

Last night my wife was attacked by a frog when she walked trrough the patio door.
http://users.snip.net/~bloomer/treefrog.jpg

[Cyber Farrier]

....The sacrificial lamb, which represented the messiah (who had never sinned), was burned as a live sacrifice.
No animal was ever burned in the "Old Testament" while still alive. They were all ritually killed first, using a method that produced instant unconciousness. Same method as is used today to produce Kosher meat.

Baron

[tbloomer]

No animal was ever burned in the "Old Testament" while still alive. They were all ritually killed first, using a method that produced instant unconciousness. Same method as is used today to produce Kosher meat.

Baron
I stand corrected - regarding the sacrifice ritual.

However, numerous critters (human) were burned (the Sodomites) and drowned alive (the flood and the destruction of the Egyptians what followed Moses into the parted Red Sea) . . . God seemed to have a bit of a temper back in those days. :)

[Rick Burten]

God seemed to have a bit of a temper back in those days. :)
More of a sense of humor and poetic justice to my way of thinking. :)

[Phil Armitage]

Until my membership expires, I will not let it go. Depending on the outcome of the mid-year, my decision as to whether or not remain a member of the AFA will be made.

And, even should I decide to remain a member while the unconvicted self-admitted felon reamins in office , I will not let it go. You would look the other way. Strange behavior for someone who stood up for a little boy who was being harrased by an adult in a public place. It would appear that your ethics and sense of right and justice are rather fungible.

Now see Rick this is the difference between you and I, I don't question your ethics, just your whineing. I never said either way how a felt about the issue, however your assumeing you know my posistion. For the record my membership will expire, I have several reasons for dropping my membership. This whole fiasco, the way everyone went about this behind the scenes and the incident has put a bad taste in my mouth. I am looking to the future. One thing I am looking forward to is Oct. 27 meeting Jaye and others. AFA certification is the week before this, and it has been deleted from my palm pilot.

The next thing I am considering is NB cert. I really do not care what the AFA does anymore.

[George Geist]

Phil,
Truth be told with or without all the political bickering they really never made any difference in my life one way or the other.
George

[Rick Burten]

Now see Rick this is the difference between you and I, I don't question your ethics, just your whineing.
Whining? ROTFLMAO!! Where pray tell have I whined?

Now I realize that this morning is a long time ago for you Phil, but seems to me you have been the one sniveling about 'Scape Goats' and the like.

When I was in the military, we had a name for folks like you, too. Unfortunately Baron doesn't allow that kind of oh so colorful language on his forums.
I never said either way how a felt about the issue, however your assumeing you know my posistion.
I assume and assumed nothing. Besides, you repeatedly have shown yourself to be a fence sitter and wind direction tester.
For the record my membership will expire, I have several reasons for dropping my membership.
I'm sure that that loss will be deeply felt by one and all.
This whole fiasco, the way everyone went about this behind the scenes and the incident has put a bad taste in my mouth.
Perhaps an astringent such as Listerine is in order?

And for the record, not everyone went about this behind the scenes. Care to offer an opinion as to who that someone might be?
I am looking to the future.
A sensible idea.
One thing I am looking forward to is Oct. 27 meeting Jaye and others.
I'm sure that everyone else who will be there is too.
AFA certification is the week before this, and it has been deleted from my palm pilot.
On the bright side, now you have some free time to perhaps better perfect your craft, or to spend more quality time with your family.
The next thing I am considering is NB cert. I really do not care what the AFA does anymore.
Then is it safe to assume that will will hear no more from you when the subject of anything AFA comes up? Or will you continue to weigh in with your oh so very appreciated and considered thoughts?

[Phil Armitage]

Whining? ROTFLMAO!! Where pray tell have I whined?

Now I realize that this morning is a long time ago for you Phil, but seems to me you have been the one sniveling about 'Scape Goats' and the like.

When I was in the military, we had a name for folks like you, too. Unfortunately Baron doesn't allow that kind of oh so colorful language on his forums.

I assume and assumed nothing. Besides, you repeatedly have shown yourself to be a fence sitter and wind direction tester.

I'm sure that that loss will be deeply felt by one and all.

Perhaps an astringent such as Listerine is in order?

And for the record, not everyone went about this behind the scenes. Care to offer an opinion as to who that someone might be?

A sensible idea.

I'm sure that everyone else who will be there is too.

On the bright side, now you have some free time to perhaps better perfect your craft, or to spend more quality time with your family.

Then is it safe to assume that will will hear no more from you when the subject of anything AFA comes up? Or will you continue to weigh in with your oh so very appreciated and considered thoughts?

Rick, fence sitter? All I can say is I should have listened to my friends over 6 years ago when they said do not join, the AFA has a lot of problems. I had to find out for myself, I quess they were right.

What Dave did was wrong and I do not condone any of it. This incodent has revealed a lot about the AFA, it has also put the spot light on Dave and taken it off the AFA. I have a word for guys like you and when and ever we meet I will be happy to tell you face to face.

[Rick Burten]

What Dave did was wrong and I do not condone any of it. This incodent has revealed a lot about the AFA, it has also put the spot light on Dave and taken it off the AFA.
Ummm, in case you missed it, since Mr. Ferguson is the President of the AFA, the spotlight has not been taken off the AFA, rather it has, yet again, been focused on the seamier side of the AFA. Look at yourself for example. You have chosen not to renew your AFA membership next year, why? Now, don't fumble around or stutter for an answer, just go back a few posts and we find you saying:
I have several reasons for dropping my membership. This whole fiasco, the way everyone went about this behind the scenes and the incident has put a bad taste in my mouth. .
So you allude to several reasons but only specifically state one. You really should try for some consistency of thought, word and action.
I have a word for guys like you and when and ever we meet I will be happy to tell you face to face.
OOOOH, still playing catch-up huh? Well, I'm sure that day will come and I'm really not very hard to find. Will I need a thesaurus?

[Cyber Farrier]

Am I gonna have to kick everyone out of the pool?

Baron

[tbloomer]

Am I gonna have to kick everyone out of the pool?

Baron
If you do that you'll have to add water to the pool so that it reaches the skimmers. Otherwise the filter will stop working.

[Rick Burten]

If you do that you'll have to add water to the pool so that it reaches the skimmers. Otherwise the filter will stop working.
Maybe just a sign that says "CAUTION! deep thinkers end of the pool"

Or, maybe we need a kiddie pool, complete with life preservers, for those who have trouble staying afloat, let alone swimming in the deep end of the pool.

Perhaps swimming lessons?

[Phil Armitage]

Rick, I do have several reasons and Dave is not one of them. Dave ran for president because he wants to fix the orginization. From what I see his passion got in the way. Over zealous and over passionate because he loves the AFA and what he thinks it is suppose to be about. This happens in many orginizations with a lot of good people, good intentions, heart in the right place then things get carried away and too political. I do not have the same passion and comitment to the orginzation that Dave has. This trade has many orginizations and groups of people that have caught my attention and interests. No stumbleing of words, there is only so much time in the day and I would rather spend it with people and ideas that I agree with.

Your a very passionate person and can also be over zealous, personaly I do not see anything wrong with being that way. I like your open and honest way of talking. However do you have to be such a prick? The only one that looks bad is the one doing the mud slinging. How do you come up with the things you say without knowing the person. Oh well.

One more thing, I don't care what end of the pool you want to play in, I am more than happy to play along and play rough if you want. I can handle myself at either end. Want to play big boy!!! You can bring your thersarus if you want, but it won't help unless you plan on useing it to hide behind, better bring a helmet, knee pads and elbow pads. :D

[Jaye Perry]

.......Want to play big boy!!! You can bring your thersarus if you want, but it won't help unless you plan on useing it to hide behind, better bring a helmet, knee pads and elbow pads. :D

You forgot the shoulder-my -pads:o

[reillyshoe]

Phil,
What is your problem with the AFA? If I remember correctly, you seemed quite smitten with them a few months ago.

[Rick Burten]

Rick, Dave ran for president because he wants to fix the orginization.
And he's off to a really fine start!
No stumbleing of words, there is only so much time in the day and I would rather spend it with people and ideas that I agree with.
Much easier to get along and be happy that way.
Your a very passionate person and can also be over zealous, personaly I do not see anything wrong with being that way. I like your open and honest way of talking.
Aw shucks. You sweet talking devil, I'm still not going to take showers with you. Or swap spit with you. :p
However do you have to be such a prick?
Ummmmm, in a word, Yes! :D
The only one that looks bad is the one doing the mud slinging.
Don't read that sentence when you're looking in the mirror, mon ami
How do you come up with the things you say without knowing the person.
To borrow a phrase from El Rushbaugh "With talent on loan from God"
One more thing, I don't care what end of the pool you want to play in, I am more than happy to play along and play rough if you want. I can handle myself at either end.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Well, actually, there have been moments of factual evidence, but their paucity gives on pause for thought.
Want to play big boy!!!
Sure. Whatcha' want to play? Jacks? Hop Scotch? Tiddlewinks? Mumbley Peg? Just don't tell me you want to play ' Spin the Bottle'
You can bring your thersarus if you want, but it won't help unless you plan on useing it to hide behind, better bring a helmet, knee pads and elbow pads. :D
Nah, I need neither a thesaurus nor the body armor. I'm a bare knuckled kind of guy. And I never bring a knife to a gun fight.
:D

[Jaye Perry]

Rick Burten......Ummmmm, in a word, Yes! :D
Don't read that sentence when you're looking in the mirror, mon ami
To borrow a phrase from El Rushbaugh "With talent on loan from God"

And "one hand tied behind your back". ;)
Phil, the AFA needs a clean sweep, that is why I (when a member) wrote in my vote. They laughed , I was serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




............................................
Nah, I need neither a thesaurus nor the body armor. I'm a bare knuckled kind of guy. And I never bring a knife to a gun fight.
:D

I asked John Marino the same question one night over many a drams of Sambuca:cool:

[Phil Armitage]

Nah, I need neither a thesaurus nor the body armor. I'm a bare knuckled kind of guy. And I never bring a knife to a gun fight.
:D

Hey we have something in common, I can show you my missing teeth where I blocked a punch with my face once, I won that fight. :D Need a smiley with no teeth.

[davewalker]

Dave ran for president because he wants to fix the orginization. From what I see his passion got in the way. Over zealous and over passionate because he loves the AFA and what he thinks it is suppose to be about.

I disagree.
He ran for President because he has ulterior motives.
He wants Mint Vale Forge (who's that?) to be the premier site for testing, education, etc... and has a friend that he wants to use to control Professional Farrier's content more. More money for him.

The guy talks put of both sides of his mouth. I've had the pleasure of being sidled up next to the bar and overheard conversations that have made it clear enough to me that man is really only interested in advancing Dave Ferguson, not neccessarily the AFA.
His actions regarding the (allegedly) illegal phone recordings... something that reeks of inpropriety and immorality... and his unwillingness to consider the long range ramifications to the organization should be enough for any logical person to conclude that he FIRST seeks to help himself and PUT himself in the spotlight... advance his own resume'.... and that the voting membership was snookered by a very clever political campaign.

Having said that.
I am equally disappointed by the non-action of Mr. Ridley.
His apparent dissapearance from public... presumably to lick his wounds... instead of pulling up his pants and going on... encouraging others that he is still "with the program" and willing to still wade into the fray... because let's face it... there are a lot of issues that need tending to...has left me with less confidence he is the man we need to lead us as well.

But.. as they say... that is life.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Mr. Ridley hasn't dissappeared he's the new chief logistics officer of WCB, and if anybody has done enough for the AFA it's Jeff.

[Phil Armitage]

My response in red

I disagree.
He ran for President because he has ulterior motives.
He wants Mint Vale Forge (who's that?) to be the premier site for testing, education, etc... and has a friend that he wants to use to control Professional Farrier's content more. More money for him.

I do not personaly know Dave and not privey to bar room or water cooler talk however who doesnt have atlerior motives in buisness. What is wrong with wanting your buisness to grow. I hope you want your buisness to grow, have short term buisness goals and long term buisness goals. I am sure the AFA has aterior motives, even though they are a non-profit orginization what about the Farnam Deal and AQHA deal that is buisness.

The guy talks put of both sides of his mouth. I've had the pleasure of being sidled up next to the bar and overheard conversations that have made it clear enough to me that man is really only interested in advancing Dave Ferguson, not neccessarily the AFA.

Well if your going to go there, what did he say? :D

His actions regarding the (allegedly) illegal phone recordings... something that reeks of inpropriety and immorality... and his unwillingness to consider the long range ramifications to the organization should be enough for any logical person to conclude that he FIRST seeks to help himself and PUT himself in the spotlight... advance his own resume'.... and that the voting membership was snookered by a very clever political campaign.

When this first surfaced it was an acussation and it was poorley handled by most of leadership in the AFA, reeked of a witch hunt. I also saw evidence that this witch hunt was in progress prior to the aleged phone call. I believe in being innocent until proven quilty. I have not read his apology, however if he is apologizeing for illegaly recording a phone conversation then he is guilty. I agree that this is immoral and ******. I think he won the election because members wanted a change. The AFA needs to figure out what the members want. I have no clue what the members want, but the voteing turn out was high and the winner won by a large margin. This means something, the best thing the BOD can do is take this serious and figure out why. This may turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to the AFA

Having said that.
I am equally disappointed by the non-action of Mr. Ridley.
His apparent dissapearance from public... presumably to lick his wounds... instead of pulling up his pants and going on... encouraging others that he is still "with the program" and willing to still wade into the fray... because let's face it... there are a lot of issues that need tending to...has left me with less confidence he is the man we need to lead us as well.

Well it is pretty safe thing to do isnt it, not really leadership material in my book. Howeve I do not know the guy and what he has been through, so I reall shouldnt make that judgement. When I asked for information he was one that did not repond. A lot of them didnt respond. I agree with Jaye, they need a clean sweep. However, maybe Jaye has an alterior motive and wants to create the premier farrier education. :)

But.. as they say... that is life.

Yep sure is, and it is not the first or last time people will do ****** things. Again, I still think a lot of these actions start well ententioned, **** happens. Maybe there is too much history with the existing people and again reasons for a clean sweep. Non-profit orginizations should not become permenant job posistions.

[George Geist]

Phil,
Pretending for a moment that this phone call thing never happened. History has shown us that the best leaders have always been the most reluctant ones.

Is Dave using his position to advance his personal business? Perhaps. To do so with an elected position is improper and unethical (there we go again).

We could also argue that he is merely filling a need which exists. Since securing a place to have certifications is always a problem. Many people would thank him for that.

I believe he could just as soon have done that anyway without being president which he did in fact do before he was elected.

On the other hand we saw Craig Trnka use his office to secure a contract for his embroidery business. We hear no lynch mobs out there concerning this though do we?

I did not think Craig was going to be a good president when he was first elected. I like many others was proven wrong. In spite of the embroidery deal I think all in all he turned out to be an excellent president.

Point Im trying to make here is that you just never really know. Sometimes youll be surprised.

One cant help but wonder why in the world in a small mickey mouse organization or in national politics one would spend more money getting elected than the job pays? Certainly never for altruistic reasons.
George

[Franky Lundist]

I read the letter and the apology and am intrigued by the statement that dave make in regards to fixing the problems within the farrier industry, most of the problems that exist in the business are because of the B.S. that comes out of the AFA and its members and its leadership or lack thereof.
This inccident with dave and brian is just another AFA fiasco that makes all farriers look bad. between this incident and the walt manifesto the AFA has done more damge in the last two years than all of the supposed untrained hacks who are out there working on horses.
The handling of this situation and others just proves the lack of integrity,honesty and personal responsibility that the AFA is known for.
Is dave president to forward his own career or agenda..........well of course he is the same as craig and walt and everyone else that has tried to hold this office, the AFA needs to curl up and die it would be better for all farriers and horses, one can only hope that it is a swift death as the slow prolonged death the AFA is currently dieng is doing no good to our industry at all.

[George Geist]

Franky Lundist!!!!!
Great to see you again Welcome Back!
George

[tbloomer]

Mr. Ridley hasn't dissappeared he's the new chief logistics officer of WCB, and if anybody has done enough for the AFA it's Jeff.
While I am willing to acknowledge that Mr. Ridley made a valiant effort as the chair of the membership benefits committee the results of those efforts were unremarkable. The attempt at providing a medical insurance plan for the members died due to lack of participation.

Seems that they were unable to get enough members to sign up for temporary insurance in order to figure out the premiums for perminent insurance. It sort of left me wondering why the insurance companies were'nt falling all over themselves with the prospect of having 3000 customers. The entire project was negotiated from a position of weakness. I always thought that in any business negotiation the customer always should negotiate from a position of strength. However in order to have the strength, you need to have all your information prepared in advance.

The idea of the temporary insurance was in order for the insurance company to determine the demographics of the membership. If the Ridley had done his homework on the demographics BEFORE going to the insurance companies, he would have been in a power position. But I guess you can't blame the man for not knowing any better. OTOH, I don't think he deserves an 'attaboy either.

Speaking of the WCB . . . do they have any "officers" who have actually WON a world championship blacksmithing competition? It would make a lot more sense if they had Cruthers, Marshall, Duckett . . . you know, somebody that has actually won the title. Maybe it should be the WCBWB. :)

[Franky Lundist]

Hi George,
Thanks for the warm welcome its good to be back and good to see that our old friends in the AFA sacred circle havent changed there policy and procedure manual.

[Rick Burten]

I believe in being innocent until proven quilty. I have not read his apology, however if he is apologizeing for illegaly recording a phone conversation then he is guilty. I agree that this is immoral and ******.
“Unfortunately, I did not tell Mr. Quinsey that other members of the AFA Executive Committee were also on the line, nor did I tell him that the conversation was being recorded. Both oversights were mine and I acknowledge that I was wrong.”

“At a latter date, I compounded my error by playing a portion of the conversation with Mr. Quinsey for other people who were not a part of the Executive Committee in an effort to stop attacks on AFA’s leadership which I felt were wrong and damaging. As I soon realized, this was a far more serious mistake.”

“Ultimately, the actions I committed were inappropriate and lacked judgment”
Phil,

First, I believe you owe me, Ron and a number of other people an apology for assuming that there was any ulterior motive in our posting on the original matter, for questioning our veracity or our integrity. We posted on this matter out of a true concern for the ethical leadership of the AFA and a over riding desire to see the leadership of the AFA enforce ethical standards that are generally accepted as necessary for the health of any organization.

Second, Maryland statue is clear and unequivocal on this matter. Recording a telephone conversation without the consent of all the parties is a felony. Playing an illegally recorded telephone conversation to anyone is also a felony. In the above Mr. Ferguson has confessed to the commission of 4 felonies.

Lastly, Mr. Ferguson is only apologizing because he got caught. In my opinion, it is clear in several places above that this is the case because of how he is phrasing what he as written. Thing’s like, “As I soon realized, this was a far more serious mistake.” Show that he didn’t think anything of his behavior until he got in trouble for it. Again in my opinion, this is not the sign of someone with a strong ethical underpinning, it is the sign of someone that has limited ethics trying to get themselves out of trouble.

All of this leads me to the continued conclusion that Mr. Ferguson lacks the moral fiber we the members of the AFA should require and that he should resign for the good of the membership. And if he chooses to not resign that the BOD should remove him as provided in the AFA’s bylaws.

[Franky Lundist]

As painfull as this is for me I find that I am in agreement with rick on this subject a felony crime occured and should be dealt with as such, however in light of the way that the AFA and its sacred circle conducts itself in these situations that it tends to create for itself its not surprising that they have once again swept it all under the rug.
With the lack of ethics that the AFA leadership has shown over the years and especially in the last two years, with the infighting,sneaking around secret committees and task forces, reports that were nothing but slanderous lie upon lie based on a report that has been proven to be worthless published in an official AFA publication, and written by a superman who shoe horses full time and replaces hips full time,not too mention a manifesto that was never meant to be released to the "average farrier" in the trenches who actually make there primary income from shoeing, written by an old man who has been hell bent on controlling this industry since the 1970s. The list could go on but why drag it out?
This is the way the AFA operates it is the reason very few people trust the AFA it is the reason that the AFA has trouble retaining members we all know this so why sit here and discuss it for hours on end? Its useless and it needs to be laid to rest and I dont mean this subject I mean the AFA dissolve it disband it whatever but it needs to be put out of its misey and ours

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,

First, I believe you owe me, Ron and a number of other people an apology for assuming that there was any ulterior motive in our posting on the original matter, for questioning our veracity or our integrity. We posted on this matter out of a true concern for the ethical leadership of the AFA and a over riding desire to see the leadership of the AFA enforce ethical standards that are generally accepted as necessary for the health of any organization.

Second, Maryland statue is clear and unequivocal on this matter. Recording a telephone conversation without the consent of all the parties is a felony. Playing an illegally recorded telephone conversation to anyone is also a felony. In the above Mr. Ferguson has confessed to the commission of 4 felonies.

Lastly, Mr. Ferguson is only apologizing because he got caught. In my opinion, it is clear in several places above that this is the case because of how he is phrasing what he as written. Thing’s like, “As I soon realized, this was a far more serious mistake.” Show that he didn’t think anything of his behavior until he got in trouble for it. Again in my opinion, this is not the sign of someone with a strong ethical underpinning, it is the sign of someone that has limited ethics trying to get themselves out of trouble.

All of this leads me to the continued conclusion that Mr. Ferguson lacks the moral fiber we the members of the AFA should require and that he should resign for the good of the membership. And if he chooses to not resign that the BOD should remove him as provided in the AFA’s bylaws.

Rick I do not owe you or anyone else an apology for anything. Let me get this right, if you, Ron or anyone makes an accusation, starts a rumor or shares information on an open forum. Everyone is to assume people we never met are on the up and up. Holly cow your an *****. Let me tell you something, if someone said Rick or Ron did this and that, I would not post and discuss it on an open forum. You know this is an open forum for all to read, however you have no problem attacking people and makeing pretty harsh insults. You can kiss my *** big feller. Look that up in a thesauris.

[George Geist]

This is a historic moment guys. Rick and Franky on the same side of an issue.

It just doesnt get any better than this!!!
George

[Franky Lundist]

I know George it just proves the old addage "truth is stranger than fiction"

[tbloomer]

All of this leads me to the continued conclusion that Mr. Ferguson lacks the moral fiber we the members of the AFA should require . . .
I don't see where Mr. Ferguson's moral fiber is any more lacking than anyone else who served on the EC in the previous term or in the current term.

Consider the fact that the previous EC NEVER apologized for their transgressions regarding the licensing fiasco. Miller never apologized for his fabricated report, which was published as “findings” of “research.” Here we have a guy who lied to the entire membership in writing in an official publication. When he got caught, he didn’t say he was sorry. When he was questioned, caught in a lie, he changed the subject, refused to answer . . . they were not sorry for what they did, never asked for forgiveness, yet the BOD forgave them anyway.

Bottom line is that the BOD dropped the ball . . . AGAIN exhibiting collective failure to manage the AFA in a respectable manner.

[Franky Lundist]

(Tom BloomerConsider the fact that the previous EC NEVER apologized for their transgressions regarding the licensing fiasco. Miller never apologized for his fabricated report, which was published as “findings” of “research.” Here we have a guy who lied to the entire membership in writing in an official publication. When he got caught, he didn’t say he was sorry. When he was questioned, caught in a lie, he changed the subject, refused to answer . . . they were not sorry for what they did, never asked for forgiveness, yet the BOD forgave them anyway.

Bottom line is that the BOD dropped the ball . . . AGAIN exhibiting collective failure to manage the AFA in a respectable manner.)

Well said Tom well said

[George Geist]

Hey Tom,
Just what in the world should Ridley have done about the insurance deal.

It was a good idea, on that we can agree but it was unfortunately too much money.

As I've said before the Union has a much better health plan but also with very low participation. Reason being. Nobody can afford it.

Medical insurance is clearly getting beyond the means of most people. They increase rates at 5 times the rate of inflation.

This is a problem that's not going away any time soon but how could Ridley have done better when in all fairness it is something way beyond his control?
George

[Franky Lundist]

George,
I am not familiar with the AFA's attemp at health insurance but this is a problem for anyone who is self employed, my wife recently went back to work part time just to get affordable health insurance.

Again I do not know what the AFA offers but the BWFA has brought in AFLAC which we have used twice now with excellent results and they are currently working on an insurance plan and making some good head way with it for overall health coverage I cant explain how it all works but it works in conjunction with the BWFA retirement plan. You might want to look into it. Just a thought

[George Geist]

Franky,
If you find out any more details Please be good enough to post them.
Thanks
George

[Franky Lundist]

George,
I had an informational video that the BWFA did in regards to the retirement and insurance plan Ill see if I can find it and Ill try to pass the info along also I believe my wife has some printed literature Ill ask her about it when she gets home

[tbloomer]

Hey Tom,
Just what in the world should Ridley have done about the insurance deal.

It was a good idea, on that we can agree but it was unfortunately too much money.

As I've said before the Union has a much better health plan but also with very low participation. Reason being. Nobody can afford it.

Medical insurance is clearly getting beyond the means of most people. They increase rates at 5 times the rate of inflation.

This is a problem that's not going away any time soon but how could Ridley have done better when in all fairness it is something way beyond his control?
George
The entire excercise in temporary insurance was conducted in order for the INSURANCE company to obtain demographics on the membership. The AFA should have done a comprehensive survey of the membership to obtain THEIR OWN demographics.

Knowing up-front how many people actually want insurance, how many dependents, their ages, preexisting conditions, risk factors. This is all information that the AFA SHOULD have obtained before going to the insurance companies. Instead the AFA went shopping without knowing what they needed or wanted. From the insurance companies perspective, how could you expect them to take the AFA seriously?

That is why I assert that Ridley went into negotiations from a position of weakness. Someone better versed in the elments of strategic thinking might have done things differently. Unfortunately for the AFA, this situation is steriotypical of their leadership throughout the history of the organization. Add to that the collective arrogance of the leadership and thier propensity to push away anyone with real business experience and you wind up with an organization that is addicted to failure.

[Rick Burten]

Rick I do not owe you or anyone else an apology for anything. Let me get this right, if you, Ron or anyone makes an accusation, starts a rumor or shares information on an open forum. Everyone is to assume people we never met are on the up and up. Holly cow your an *****. Let me tell you something, if someone said Rick or Ron did this and that, I would not post and discuss it on an open forum. You know this is an open forum for all to read, however you have no problem attacking people and makeing pretty harsh insults. You can kiss my *** big feller. Look that up in a thesauris.
If your *** is as ugly as your ****, thanks but no thanks. And remember, a fox smells its own ******* first. If you are having trouble with that analogy, perhaps someone here can explain it to you.

I posted no rumors on the subject of Mr. Ferguson. If you recall, I titled my information "What I Know". And I supported what I said. And your're right, when necessary I will say and do what I feel is correct, in the manner I feel is most appropriate. And when shown to be wrong, I'll apologize. You might consider the same course of action. Further, when someone becomes a public figure, they are always fair game. Can't stand the heat? Stay out of the kitchen.

And I don't expect you to assume anything about me or anyone else. But you've been caught with your pants down and you need to do the right thing.

By the way, there is no 'i' in 'thesaurus'. If you're going to attempt to use polysyllabic words, you might want to consider spell check or a hard copy of Webster's.

And do try to remember that before you make any personal statements about what and how others write, to look in the mirror that you by now should have placed right above your computer screen. As George might say, "according to Rick's signature phrase, 'you are hoist by your own petard' "

[Rick Burten]

What illegal actions did the prior EC commit? Were any felonies committed?

Actually, what immoral actions, based on verifiable facts, were committed by anyone?

What lies were told? Specifically and by whom?

[Phil Armitage]

Rick you owe me an apology for not comprehending what I said and attacking my character. How did I get caught with my pants down? When you first made public what Dave did, I said the AFA needs to do a fair investigation of the facts. I was waiting for the facts, not your side of the story. Everyones side of the story can be fact or not. The way I see it you were used by the BOD to get this out to the public on this forum. If I ever need something made public, your the loose lipped person to use. Like I said I do not owe anyone an apology, go back and find anything I said that would prove otherwise.

[Rick Burten]

Rick you owe me an apology for not comprehending what I said and attacking my character.
I comprehended everything you said. But No Problem, I'll apologize..

Phil, I'm sorry!

And I mean that as sincerely and self-servingly as the apology issued to the AFA membership by Mr. Ferguson. Do you forgive me? Please say you do. Afterall, if you can forgive Mr. Ferguson his transgressions, can't you find it in your heart to forgive me mine?

Fortunately for me, I don't have any felonies, committed while acting as the leader of a national farrier organization, to apologize for.
The way I see it you were used by the BOD to get this out to the public on this forum.
Really? considering that the BOD, at that time, knew nothing of the events you are once again hoist by your own petard.
And there you go again, making statements based on facts not in evidence. Aren't you the one who just took me to task over that very thing. I feel you owe me an apology, and that's just based on your stated position on the subject.

Keep it up though, you brand yourself with the very iron you would attempt to use on me. You really should quit while you're , if not ahead, at least not really behind. You're really not very good at this.
If I ever need something made public, your the loose lipped person to use.
I know you lack the memory space to remember this, but I said right from the git go that in time, others would blame me for making public the events of 17March2006, and subsequent, pertinent events. Thank you for re-affirming my beliefs about human nature. And don't worry Phil, your secret's safe with me. I promise not to tell anyone what I know.
Like I said I do not owe anyone an apology, go back and find anything I said that would prove otherwise.
Thank you for being such a mensch! As I and others have already done the heavy lifting, I'm not going to go back and do it again. Everyone who followed the various conversations knows exactly where you stood/stand, what you said, and is puzzled by why you continue to avoid doing the right thing. Fortunately, it doesn't really matter. You have offered us some very fine introspective preceptions.

[Phil Armitage]

My original reply in blue
Ricks reply in red
my response to Ricks reply in Sienna

Rick you owe me an apology for not comprehending what I said and attacking my character.

I comprehended everything you said. But No Problem, I'll apologize..

[COLOR=Sienna]No you still do not comprehend or understand. Let me try again, I do not condone criminal acts, people are innocent until proven guilty and deserve a fair and unbiased investigation by the proper people, without interference. I also think it was inappropriate for you to put "What you know" on an open forum, you had no reason to do so except personal gain even if petty. Whether you have the facts or not, an accusation that serious should have been allowed to be handled properly, this shows a lack of trust in the process and was also an unfair action on your part.

Phil, I'm sorry!

Quit playing games.

And I mean that as sincerely and self-servingly as the apology issued to the AFA membership by Mr. Ferguson. Do you forgive me? Please say you do. Afterall, if you can forgive Mr. Ferguson his transgressions, can't you find it in your heart to forgive me mine?

Comprehension problem again I see. Please point out where I said that I forgave Dave. I clearly said by apologizing he is admitting he is guilty and I also consider what he did was ******. We still have yet to hear anything from the BOD, at least Dave is man enough to admit it. I did add he is a p***ionate person and this can lead to doing ****** things. We are guilty of that now and then. Recording a conversation without there consent legal or not is unethical, I think Dave knows this.

Fortunately for me, I don't have any felonies, committed while acting as the leader of a national farrier organization, to apologize for.

I will take your word for it.

The way I see it you were used by the BOD to get this out to the public on this forum. One of the most unprofessional actions I have seen by an orginization and also unethical

Really? considering that the BOD, at that time, knew nothing of the events you are once again hoist by your own petard.
And there you go again, making statements based on facts not in evidence. Aren't you the one who just took me to task over that very thing. I feel you owe me an apology, and that's just based on your stated position on the subject.

The BOD new nothing of the event, however it occured during a BOD meeting. So your telling me after you heard Daves tape and Brians side of the story you posted what you knew here first before revealing this to the proper people like the BOD for example, again a lack of trusting the process or is that not what really happened? Hmmmmm, hoisted by your own petard

Keep it up though, you brand yourself with the very iron you would attempt to use on me. You really should quit while you're , if not ahead, at least not really behind. You're really not very good at this.

Not good at what, comprehending and understanding or being a spin doctor? Seems like I am doing fine by being rational and fair. No I am not any good a politics and spinning storys. Hoisted again by your own petard.

If I ever need something made public, your the loose lipped person to use.

I know you lack the memory space to remember this, but I said right from the git go that in time, others would blame me for making public the events of 17March2006, and subsequent, pertinent events. Thank you for re-affirming my beliefs about human nature. And don't worry Phil, your secret's safe with me. I promise not to tell anyone what I know.

Oh I remember you saying that, I also recall you did this after conferring with a very credible source. Wonder who that was? Great disclaimer for you lack of judgment. Maybe all your guilty of is poor judgment. Should have called me first. ;)

Like I said I do not owe anyone an apology, go back and find anything I said that would prove otherwise.

Thank you for being such a mensch! As I and others have already done the heavy lifting, I'm not going to go back and do it again. Everyone who followed the various conversations knows exactly where you stood/stand, what you said, and is puzzled by why you continue to avoid doing the right thing. Fortunately, it doesn't really matter. You have offered us some very fine introspective preceptions.

You and others have not done any heavy lifting that it total BS. The correct course of action was for Brian to press charges and he did with legal ***istance and then for the BOD to review all the facts, not sure where you fit in that picture. Your self appointed position in the whole ordeal is nonsense and like I said you were used by the big boys to make this public. Very evident after they did not silence you after you revealed it on this forum, you cannot tell me everyone on the BOD didn't know this took place on this forum. This also shows the unprofessionalism at the top. I am doing the right thing by calling a spade a spade and not falling for all the BS.

Now do you want to apologize for real or do you wish to continue being a bull ****ter?
__________________
Rick Burten, CJF, RMF

[Phil Armitage]

Rick I am wondering if your calling Tom Bloomer a liar. Lets see he could be telling the truth based on facts, why not. I do not consider him a liar. I did not consider you a liar. Lets see what the facts reveal, maybe you can prove him wrong? I am all ears.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil,
What is your problem with the AFA? If I remember correctly, you seemed quite smitten with them a few months ago.

Patrick, my excitement a few months ago is with SNEFA and the people I have met by going to the meetings, hopefully I do not need to be a member of the AFA to continue being a SNEFA member. My problem with the AFA is the all the political **** going on. It is all here for you to read.

Brent is trying to revive the Maine Farriers org. Maybe I will join that.

[Rick Burten]

My original reply in blue
Ricks reply in red
my response to Ricks reply in Sienna

I comprehended everything you said. But No Problem, I'll apologize.. NOT!

[COLOR=Sienna]No you still do not comprehend or understand. Let me try again, I do not condone criminal acts, people are innocent until proven guilty and deserve a fair and unbiased investigation by the proper people, without interference. I also think it was inappropriate for you to put "What you know" on an open forum,
[color=sienna you had no reason to do so except personal gain even if petty. Whether you have the facts or not, an accusation that serious should have been allowed to be handled properly, this shows a lack of trust in the process and was also an unfair action on your part.

What possible personal gain did I get?

Going public with wrong doing is handling it properly. Why should I have been made to be a part of a criminal act or conspiracy? Sorry Phil, you might chose to remain mute, but not me.

Phil, I'm sorry!

Quit playing games.

And I mean that as sincerely and self-servingly as the apology issued to the AFA membership by Mr. Ferguson. Do you forgive me? Please say you do. Afterall, if you can forgive Mr. Ferguson his transgressions, can't you find it in your heart to forgive me mine?

Comprehension problem again I see. Please point out where I said that I forgave Dave. I clearly said by apologizing he is admitting he is guilty and I also consider what he did was ******. We still have yet to hear anything from the BOD, at least Dave is man enough to admit it. I did add he is a p***ionate person and this can lead to doing ****** things. We are guilty of that now and then. Recording a conversation without there consent legal or not is unethical, I think Dave knows this.

ROTFLMAO! The only reason Mr. Ferguson has admitted anything is because he had no choice.
Besides, I have no reason to defend myself. The truth is an absolute defense.

Fortunately for me, I don't have any felonies, committed while acting as the leader of a national farrier organization, to apologize for.

I will take your word for it.

How magnanamous of you. I will sleep better tonight knowing this. One question though, why are you willing to take my word for something now, when you have basically said I didn't speak the truth before? You believe me now, but not then. Quite a fungible position you've staked out for you moral comp-a-ss.

The way I see it you were used by the BOD to get this out to the public on this forum. One of the most unprofessional actions I have seen by an orginization and also unethical

You do mean the EC here right? a-s-suming you do(and its really hard to a-s-sume anything when it relates to you) No one on the EC held or holds sway over me, not then, not now. So you condemn four good men for actions they never contemplated, let alone conspired to institute. You should be very ashamed of yourself. You now can add them to the growing list of people to whom you owe an apology. And before you go beating the unprofessionalism drum, consider your actions of late and see if they measure up. Hear that sound in your head? Its your own drum beating out the rat-a-tat-tat sound of your unprofessional actions on the drum of your conscience.
Really? considering that the BOD, at that time, knew nothing of the events you are once again hoist by your own petard.
And there you go again, making statements based on facts not in evidence. Aren't you the one who just took me to task over that very thing. I feel you owe me an apology, and that's just based on your stated position on the subject.

The BOD new nothing of the event, however it occured during a BOD meeting. So your telling me after you heard Daves tape and Brians side of the story you posted what you knew here first before revealing this to the proper people like the BOD for example, again a lack of trusting the process or is that not what really happened? Hmmmmm, hoisted by your own petard

Keep it up though, you brand yourself with the very iron you would attempt to use on me. You really should quit while you're , if not ahead, at least not really behind. You're really not very good at this.

Not good at what, comprehending and understanding or being a spin doctor? Seems like I am doing fine by being rational and fair. No I am not any good a politics and spinning storys. Hoisted again by your own petard.

No Phil, you are many things, but good at comprehension and understanding are not among those things. Your compa-s-s has lost the ability to point true North. As a result you are just spinning, and spinning and spinning.

If I ever need something made public, your the loose lipped person to use.

I know you lack the memory space to remember this, but I said right from the git go that in time, others would blame me for making public the events of 17March2006, and subsequent, pertinent events. Thank you for re-affirming my beliefs about human nature. And don't worry Phil, your secret's safe with me. I promise not to tell anyone what I know.

Oh I remember you saying that, I also recall you did this after conferring with a very credible source. Wonder who that was? Great disclaimer for you lack of judgment. Maybe all your guilty of is poor judgment. Should have called me first. ;)
Who the source is, is none of your business. There was no lack of judgement on my part, put there is a lack of just about everything on yours.
Phil, there was no reason to call you. I've called you often enough right here in public. And if I'm guilty of anything, its not pressing the matter harder and f-a-rther. To that, I'll plead guilty.

Like I said I do not owe anyone an apology, go back and find anything I said that would prove otherwise.

Thank you for being such a mensch! As I and others have already done the heavy lifting, I'm not going to go back and do it again. Everyone who followed the various conversations knows exactly where you stood/stand, what you said, and is puzzled by why you continue to avoid doing the right thing. Fortunately, it doesn't really matter. You have offered us some very fine introspective perceptions.

You and others have not done any heavy lifting that it total BS. The correct course of action was for Brian to press charges and he did with legal ***istance and then for the BOD to review all the facts, not sure where you fit in that picture. Your self appointed position in the whole ordeal is nonsense and like I said you were used by the big boys to make this public. Very evident after they did not silence you after you revealed it on this forum, you cannot tell me everyone on the BOD didn't know this took place on this forum. This also shows the unprofessionalism at the top. I am doing the right thing by calling a spade a spade and not falling for all the BS.

Now do you want to apologize for real or do you wish to continue being a bull ****ter?

It will be a very, very cold day in Hell before I apologize for what I did with regard to the Ferguson matter, or anything I have said with regard to you.

You accuse the so called "big boys" of using me. You're so c-o-ck sure of yourself, I challenge you to provide substantiation of your scurilous charge.

What? No judge? No jury? Just the rope, right Phil? Who in their right mind would take anything you have to say, seriously?

You still don't get it, do you Phil? You keep repeating, over and over, those actions you hold me to account for. Are you that ****** or just obtuse?

You wouldn't know how to call a spade a spade if you stepped on the handle and got conked in the face with one.

Rat-a-tat-tat, Rat-a-tat-tat, Rat-a-tat-tat
__________________
Rick Burten, CJF, RMF[/QUOTE]

[Rick Burten]

Rick I am wondering if your calling Tom Bloomer a liar.
Nope. Not before, not now.
Lets see he could be telling the truth based on facts, why not. I do not consider him a liar. I did not consider you a liar.
Sure you did and have. But its OK, I consider the source.
Lets see what the facts reveal, maybe you can prove him wrong? I am all ears.
What's to prove? Its plowed ground . Maybe, considering you're 'all ears' you should get your hearing checked.

[Phil Armitage]

Rick, this has made my day two very week replys in a row. You clearly do not know how to admit your wrong. ROTFLMAO. :D :) I really think your only problem is poor judgement and loose lips. Not a big deal, makes fun and interesting gossip. :D :)

Have a nice Sunday.

[tbloomer]

Rick Burten in red, mine in black . . .
What illegal actions did the prior EC commit? Were any felonies committed?
None, although some folks alleged that their actions were illegal just like you alleged that Dave committed a felony. The only legally acceptable proof that a felony has been commited is a CONVICTION. Since there was no conviction, the state of KY requires due process in order to remove an officer of a corporation. The BOD chickened out on holding any kind of a "trial" where Dave would have to drag out all of the dirty laundry and make it public record.

Actually, what immoral actions, based on verifiable facts, were committed by anyone?
The Miller report was a total fabricated lie. None of the information put forth by Walts gang was true. This is a verifyable fact that I VERIFIED MYSELF and brought out to the membership in the mid year meeting in Omaha. The "research" was conducted in the imagination of Walt Taylor and Mike Miller.

What lies were told? Specifically and by whom?
Trnka's train was a huge lie. The "presentation of the idea" that we were on the verge of being licensed by the vets and PETA was A LIE. The blanket condemnation of the farrier schools without ever visiting a single school or conducting any real research, then presenting the fabrication as "FINDINGS" [of facts?] was A LIE.

After publishing the Miller report condemning the schools. The AFA decided to do a school survey . . . so now that the accusation was put forth, the witch hunt starts in order to gather evidence to back up the accusation. Oh you can argue that the BOD had no intention of starting a witch hunt, but since the BOD was not in control of the published material distributed to the membership . . .

Walt Taylor and his followers were prepared to . . .

"tear the AFA apart if that's what it takes"

I got that quote from someone who was on the original farrier licensing task force and dropped off because Walt and his followers had resolved to follow through on their plan regardless of what the BOD and the membership wanted. According to my source, these folks intended to follow through with their agenda regardless of the gag order and in spite of the results of an election where the victor ran on an anti-licensing ticket.

According to Tim Quinn, the BOD rep, Walt and his followers had a plan (before the results of the election were known) to remove Dave Ferguson from office or at the very least render him ineffective by opposing EVERYTHING he proposed. 'nuther words, to hell with what the members want, we're going to do what we want even if it tears the AFA apart.

Although the BOD silenced the pro-licensing talk with a gag order, they did not prevent an attempt at sabotaging the plans of the new president. AND since the BOD rep was aware of this plan to sabotage Dave, why didn't he do his job and tell the board about it? He told ME about it and I am not an AFA member!!! I told some board members about it . . . but hey, so what?

[tbloomer]

The following is an unsolicited email that I got from Mike Nolan on Wednesday, July 26, 2006:

Tom,

With only a couple of exceptions, I don’t engage on the bulletin boards, not even the AFA board. However, I wanted to let you know a couple of things. Early this month, all AFA members received a mailing with a cover memo from me, a summary of the provisions of the mediation agreement, and a letter of apology from Dave.

At the mediation, the entire Executive Committee arrived a the conclusions that 1) Dave had done two very **** things – record the phone call, and play it for three people; 2) that there were some extenuating cir***stances, which did not excuse what he had done, but did mitigate the offense to some degree; 3) that Dave was not going to resign; 4) that there probably were not sufficient votes to remove him from office. Based on those factors, the goal was to end the controversy with as little harm to AFA as possible.

The EC is now engaged in regular telephone conference calls (once a week since the mediation), more physical meetings (a meeting occurred last week in Lexington), and a much better attitude among the officers. I personally believe that the officers are working well together to conduct the ***ociation’s business, and that it is time to move on.

Contrary to the ***ertions on horseshoes.com, the AFA’s membership is not declining. Granted, I would like to have seen a larger increase, but numbers are up slightly for the first six months of 2006. More importantly, the Board will soon be asked to approve a total restructuring of the governance structure of the organization. The Convention program is shaping up, and some of the committees are starting some interesting projects. All in all, the AFA is doing pretty well for a group which routinely sets off internal explosions just to see the fireworks.

Had dinner with two other couples at the Thai Smile last night, which may be one of the reasons I decided to respond privately to your posts at horseshoes.com. I hope all is well with you and that the frog didn’t cause any lasting psychological damage to your wife.

Mike
American Farrier's ***ociation
4059 Iron Works Pkwy, #1
Lexington KY 40511
859-233-7411

The reference to the "Thai Smile" has to do with the fact that I had dinner there with Mike back in April . . . the dinner took place the night following an hour telephone conversation on my cell phone with Tim Quinn. At the time my visit to KY was for personal business that had nothing to do with the AFA.

Mike had asked me to meet with him because he wanted to hear the perspective of someone who had left the AFA. His intention was to figure out what the organization could do to improve member retention.

[George Geist]

Tom,
The accusations you level at Walt Taylor and Mike Miller with hearsay information is quite a serious charge.

Why did you say nothing about this before any of these things occurred?
George

[beslagsmed]

Is it possible someone could post this letter of Appology which was sent to all members? As of today I have not received it.

Mike

[tbloomer]

Rick I am wondering if your calling Tom Bloomer a liar.
Phil, since your power of perception is not up to the task, let me just spell it out for you. Rick and I have an almost metaphysical connection. We play this little game on these boards where one of us sets them up and the other knocks them down. It sort of goes like this;

Rick says something like, "Tom, do you have any facts to back up what you are saying or are you just talking out of your posterior?"

Tom says something like, "Rick, here are my facts - 1, 2, 3 . . ."

We maintain the "appearance of disagreement" in order to entertain ourselves. So if you think that you can instigate some kind of argument between Rick and I, it is BECAUSE we WANT you to think that. Sorry pal, you've been setup and you fell for it. Go have yourself a beer - perhaps a "blond" ale?

[tbloomer]

Tom,
The accusations you level at Walt Taylor and Mike Miller with hearsay information is quite a serious charge.

Why did you say nothing about this before any of these things occurred?
George
I did . . . right here on these boards. Your failing memory is not my problem.

[George Geist]

Tom,
These boards are in reality pretty insignificant. Why did you not say anything in a place where it could have mattered? Or to someone who could have had some authority to look into the situation?
George

[Rick Burten]

Rick, this has made my day two very week replys in a row.
Phil, if you are going to try to insult someone,at least get it right. Its 'weak' not 'week' since you obviously don't know the difference, perhaps you should stop making a fool of yourself.
You clearly do not know how to admit your wrong
As I have, on several occasions stated, when I am wrong, I am more than happy to admit I'm wrong. In this case, not only am I not wrong, but your incessent nattering continues to prove me right.
I really think your only problem is poor judgement and loose lips.
Coming from you, this is too funny.
Not a big deal, makes fun and interesting gossip.
You still don't get it do you Phil? You are the one gossiping, showing poor judgement and loose lips. That you cannot see that for yourself, speaks volumes about your tunnel-vision and inability to see yourself as others see you. That you continue to refuse to take responsibility for your actions by word and deed, is evident to all. All but you that is. You do however amuse me and from time to time arouse in me some feelings of pity for you. You are , afterall, most pitiful. I feel your pain.
Have a nice Sunday.
Why should Sunday be different than any other day? Regardless , you do the same.

[tbloomer]

Tom,
These boards are in reality pretty insignificant. Why did you not say anything in a place where it could have mattered? Or to someone who could have had some authority to look into the situation?
George
I did tell several board members including and especially my own board rep who is the president of an AFA chapter of which I am a member.

Maybe I should have called EVERY AFA board member . . . yea, that's the ticket. "Hi, I'm not a member of the AFA, but I just wanted to let you know what is going on in your organization."

As far as I know the BOD collective doesn't want to be bothered. It's not like they were collectively willing to fund a face to face meeting about it. They (the collective BOD) reacted the same way they reacted to the licensing thing . . . this will all blow over and go away if we just ignore it and keep our mouths shut.

And now I'm going to quote the bible;

"Jesus wept." John 11:35

.

[Rick Burten]

a "blond" ale?
Now that's funny! ROTFLMAO!!! :D :D :D

[George Geist]

Tom,
I was under the impression that you were a member in good standing when this happened. If not, I'll stand corrected on that. Your membership expiration date was something I neither knew nor cared about.

As for just being patient and letting the licensing thing blow over, well, in hindsight isn't that precisely what happened anyway?

Being that there was never any legislation pending anywhere (not that the AFA could have done anything about it anyway) What action should they have taken against a non-existent issue?
George

[tbloomer]

As for just being patient and letting the licensing thing blow over, well, in hindsight isn't that precisely what happened anyway?George
Since your memory is failing, I'll remind you that that is one of my precisely posted reasons for leaving the AFA at the end of 2005.

[tbloomer]

Being that there was never any legislation pending anywhere (not that the AFA could have done anything about it anyway) What action should they have taken against a non-existent issue?
George
The ACTION that the AFA took was to RAISE THE ISSUE!!! The propaganda put forth in their official publications was predicated on the ***ertion that the vets and PETA were about to license our trade. They published the lie, and then rather than publishing a retraction or an apology they fell silent when confronted with the facts. The issue existed BECAUSE of the AFA not in spite of it. Yes it was just a few individuals – leaders in control of the office and the official publications and a BOD that did not (still doesn’t) have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing.

It's not like PF mag or the newsletter published anything after the mid year meeting that actually told the story about how the whole thing was made up as a political fear tactic in order to get the membership on board the train.

[Rick Burten]

that that is one of my precisely posted reasons for leaving the AFA at the end of 2005.
Since this is Sunday, and the discussion has gotten somewhat Biblical, I can only add that While Tom may not be Moses(so to speak), he is at the front of a long line that has begun the Exodus.

I don't think these folks will wander around in the desert for forty years though.

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, since your power of perception is not up to the task, let me just spell it out for you. Rick and I have an almost metaphysical connection. We play this little game on these boards where one of us sets them up and the other knocks them down. It sort of goes like this;

Rick says something like, "Tom, do you have any facts to back up what you are saying or are you just talking out of your posterior?"

Tom says something like, "Rick, here are my facts - 1, 2, 3 . . ."

We maintain the "appearance of disagreement" in order to entertain ourselves. So if you think that you can instigate some kind of argument between Rick and I, it is BECAUSE we WANT you to think that. Sorry pal, you've been setup and you fell for it. Go have yourself a beer - perhaps a "blond" ale?

Sorry you think I am trying to instigate anything. Actually I thought you represented yourself very well, unbiased and trying to keep things factual. I was in your corner and like your rational thinking, however if all your doing is playing games with Rick, then in the future I will take what you say with a grain of salt. Rick is upset because the situation with Dave is swept under the rug. Then he tells you what Walt and Mike did is plowed under. So it is OK to plow under but not sweep under the rug? Now if he used the analogy it is water over the bridge and lets move on then OK. I agree with the E-mail you recieved where it mentioned what is done is done now lets move on. If Rick can't live with what Dave did and have it swept under the rug then he should do what you did, drop membership and move on.

I will go have that pale ale now. :) :)

[Franky Lundist]

In regards to statements made concerning last years fiasco with the walt manifesto, the secret task force and the mike miller report, I have it on very good authority that legal counsel was sought by an individual, and that the individual was told that there were grounds for a lawsuit that covered everything from slander and libel, that would have involved people in many levels of the AFA and in the AFA official propaganda machine.
My understanding as to why this was never attacked from a legal stand point was that this person did not have the financial resources that a law suit of that size would take.
I was also told that the Kentucky State Attorneys General office was contacted by this persons attorney and that while they believed there was a violation of the AFA bylaws they felt it was not something (again from a budget standpoint) that would be worth the time or effort to work on in other words they were looking for bigger fish to fry.
I have no doubts about this persons information and do***entation however as I am not in a postion to speak for him I guess its still hearsay
In my opinion the AFA has gotten lucky several times eventually the luck will run out as rick has said many times give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves,

[George Geist]

Sounds like what we heard from Richard Revilinski. Was it him that told you that Franky?

If so, tell him to come back to these boards he's missed around here!!!
George

[Rick Burten]

Rick is upset because the situation with Dave is swept under the rug.
Were you more astute, you would know that the issue has not been swept under the rug, at least not quite yet. Or have you forgotten that there is going to be a special meeting the Friday evening before the mid-year BOD meeting in Sept. The purpose of which is to give the BOD reps and any other AFA member who shows up, the opportunity to both question Mr. Ferguson and state their position on the subject of whether or not he is fit to lead the AFA.

Are you going? have you, in writing, told anyone, including Mr. Ferguson, that he should resign? If not, why not? You now seem to taking a pro-resignation stance.

Then he tells you what Walt and Mike did is plowed under. So it is OK to plow under but not sweep under the rug?
No sir, I said no such thing. What I did say was that the issue (Lic.& Reg) was already plowed ground and I was not going to re-till it. If you recall, the issue was handled twice by the BOD and once in a special membership meeting. Though the outcome may have been less than paletable for many, it was not swept under the rug. And if you can also remember back that far, that issue was made public right here on these forums and got quite a long and rousing look. Perhaps those who brought that matter to everyone's attention are, in your eyes and mind, loose-lipped, gossip mongers who lack good judgement, ethics and whatever else you have accused me of.
Now if he used the analogy it is water over the bridge and lets move on then OK.
There is no analogy to be had here. I have been quite consistant in my position.
I agree with the E-mail you recieved where it mentioned what is done is done now lets move on.
So you waffle again. First you say Mr. Ferguson should resign. Not four paragraphs later you say, forget it, lets move on.

Rat-a-tat-tat, Rat-a-tat-tat, Rat-a-tat-tat
If Rick can't live with what Dave did and have it swept under the rug then he should do what you did, drop membership and move on.
I await the outcome of the mid-year board of directors meeting. Based on that, I will decide whether or not to renew my AFA membership when it expires. I probably won't leave before then because I paid my dues and I'll have my full measure of service(s) before I bid the ***ociation 'Adieu' . Of course, if I were to get a pro-rated rebate of my membership, that would be a different story(again, a-s-suming I am leaving after the outcome of the mid-year is known).
I will go have that pale ale now.
You perhaps ken the difference between 'pale' and 'blonde'? While it was suggested you imbibe the later, no mention was made of the former. And purposefully so.

[Rick Burten]

I have no doubts about this persons information and do***entation however as I am not in a postion to speak for him I guess its still hearsay
In my opinion the AFA has gotten lucky several times eventually the luck will run out as rick has said many times give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves,
I spent a lot of time tracking down the rumor and innuendo and all manner of allegations on the subject. None of what you allege is true, right up to and including the incorrect information regarding the position of the KY. Attorney General.

Further, if this unnamed individual did indeed have such information and docu-m-entation, s/he could have brought it to light of his/her own volition when it became apparent that no outside legal action was going to occur. Yet this person chose to remain silent. One can only wonder why.

And one last time, the actions undertaken first by then-President Trnka, and the subsequent activities of the task force/ad hoc committee he formed, complied, to the letter of the law, with the AFA Bylaws as written at that time. And so did the subsequent Farrier Schools Survey Task Force.

That it was not done in a manner which suited you or many others, is not germane. Especially if we are discussing adherence to the law.

But we are in agreement about a person hanging themselves. And the examples abound both within and without the AFA and its membership.

[Franky Lundist]

rick, my understanding is that this person had contacted you privately and was willing to discuss the situation, wether you talked to him or not I do not know I know that he contacted me today and told me that the things we had discussed concerning the AFA were in confidence and that I shouldnt be running my mouth in these forums so it seems that the AFA is not the only people who operate behind the scenes I am sorry I brought it up and spoke out of turn perhaps I have made a greivious error and need to write an apology to all of the members of this forum and just sweep it under the rug in grand AFA tradition

[tbloomer]

While it was suggested you imbibe the later, no mention was made of the former. And purposefully so.

RICK!!! . . . P A S S IVE VOICE - let me reword that fo you;

While Tom suggested that you imbibe in the later, he made no mention of the former - purposefully so. There isn't that better? I like it better when the subject does not receive the action of the verb. :)

[Rick Burten]

rick, my understanding is that this person had contacted you privately and was willing to discuss the situation, wether you talked to him or not I do not know
Frankie,

I don't remember talking to anyone privately that had the information and do***entation you say this individual has. I actually didn't have a lot of private conversations on the subject, and I hope I would remember one of that import. If you would like to PM me with this individual's name, I should be able to confirm whether or not any conversation took place. I would, contrary to some accusations to the contrary made against me, hold that information in the strictest confidence.
I know that he contacted me today and told me that the things we had discussed concerning the AFA were in confidence and that I shouldnt be running my mouth in these forums so it seems that the AFA is not the only people who operate behind the scenes I am sorry I brought it up and spoke out of turn perhaps I have made a greivious error and need to write an apology to all of the members of this forum and just sweep it under the rug in grand AFA tradition
Its too bad that this individual is/was unwilling to present his information/do***entation so that it could be properly vetted. It might have gone a long way towards settling the issue one way or another.

For me, you need issue no apology. One must follow the dictates of one's conscience and comp***.

[tbloomer]

And the examples abound both within and without the AFA and its membership.

NOW you've insulted the whole world . . . at least "it was done" in p a s s ive voice. :)

[tbloomer]

In regards to statements made concerning last years fiasco with the walt manifesto, the secret task force and the mike miller report, I have it on very good authority that legal counsel was sought by an individual, and that the individual was told that there were grounds for a lawsuit . . . (deletia)
I know an individual who sought legal counsel and got the opposite results. This particular individual COULD afford to take it to court and despirately wanted to do so. Seems that his lawyer told him he would be wasting his time and money.

[Franky Lundist]

Tom,
I really do not know how to respond to that especially as I was told by this individual to shut up on the subject especially on these forums I do know that he did contact rick in a private message not long ago during the phone call fiasco and I do know what his lawyer said about the whole situation again wether he and rick had a conversation I dont know.
Anyhow I have been told that " my shooting my mouth off in here about what I know has ****ed him off " so I will just shut up on the subject rather than risk a good friendship and good bussiness relationship.

[Rick Burten]

Franky,

I have hard copy of all the private messages I received. I really am at a loss figuring out who this individual might be. So, I can neither confirm nor deny that this person contacted me. Perhaps you can prevail upon them to again contact me to clear up this matter?