Clubs, how I shoe

[Ronald Aalders]

I've seen a few threads started by both owners and shoers about how to shoe clubs. A lot has been said about this already, but that never stopped me before adding to the confusion :D . This is how I shoe such clubs. It works for me pretty well and has on a lot of clubs. By the way this really is nothing new compared to earlier posts. Other words, same protocol. :rolleyes:

Just today I shod a TB bred hunter horse used in AQHA competition. I had not seen this one for about a year. The LF is a tad 'clubby'. When trimmed the heels touched the ground, making this a grade 1 club I guess, but it sure looked like a grade 2 to me. Most likely the rotation of the coffin bone was to blame for a big abscess a few months ago. What is left of that abscess is a 2" horizontal crack halfway on the medial side of the foot, and the memory of a three legged lame horse.

When shoeing this kind of clubs when trimming I never touch the part of the foot in front of the frog. I just lower heels by trimming the posterior part of the foot. By trimming down those heels, the position of the coffin bone in relation to the horizontal is normalized.

This realigning of the coffin bone reduces forces acting on the tip of the coffin bone for one, not only reducing blood flow, but when given time seriously endangering the bone itself. Obviously the rotation of the coffin bone causes more trouble than just the compression of the cir***flex vessels underneath the coffin bone but taking care of that one helps solve the other ones too.

Pic 1 is how I got the horse, Pic 2 is the foot after heels were trimmed, again I did not even touch the anterior part of the foot with a rasp. You can easily see how the heels have been lowered realigning the coffin bone. Important here is noting that the club is caused by too much deep flexor tendon pull. Lowering the heels realigns the coffin bone, but also increases DDFT pull! So after lowering heels, steps need to be taken to ease off this DDFT pull. This is vital!

In order to ease off this DDFT pull my shoe of choice is a (wedged) banana shoe. A banana offers a wedge and very easy break over. The latter greatly enhances the first.

The shod foot is shown in pic 3. Pic 4 shows the foot ready to go. The difference between the two is a little Adhere and some hoof oil.


Ronald Aalders

[Andrew Grimm]

Ron,
very nicely said.
Speaking of clubs. When I was in Georgia I saw a horse with 3 club feet and 1 regular looking foot. In that case the abnormal foot was the normal one. :D :eek:
Thanks Ron.


Andrew Grimm

[IRNWKR_2]

D**n nanner shoes, You should have to have some type of card to apply these shoes. I really like them myself or the theory behind it, but this seems to be a shoe that very few can apply properly. Most I have seen dont even get close to getting it right. Ronald how was the horse shod when you got to him. Nice looking work btw.

Jason G. CJF.... not CF..YEAH!

[Ronald Aalders]

She wasn't shod Jason, just trimmed but didn't do too good...........


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Ronald I really like where the B.O. is placed. But how do you get the good fit between rockered shoe and foot? Just practice?
Heres a similar grade club I used to do...both feet serious club. One foot shown after shoeing, one before. (I have posted this before but its been awhile)
This was some years ago, long before the banana shoes and just as I was venturing into NB so I would have placed the BO further back had I known then what I know now.
You can sort of see the toe of the near side shod foot in one picture. The horse would wear toe toes of these shoes out pretty good in seven weeks so he probably neded it further back.
These are GE wedge shoes, castle frog pads and an added frog piece to get the support to the ground.
Patty

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Patty,

I like the heel height of the LF. If both feet were the same kind of clubs you managed to drop the heel a lot. That's not always easy on a club.

Reducing breakover is vital and only a banana allows breakover around the center of articulation ánd has a sort of 'give' in the heels. More and more I think that especially on clubs the rocking part of the banana is very important. Just raising heels with wedges is too rigid and does not help the DDFT muscle to relax.

Obviously a banana with a flat foot side makes using a banana a lot easier. But as far as I know only Redden offers those. And although they're very good, they're very expensive too!

When you shape a shoe banana style what you need is a fresh rasp. There are a few things you can do that makes things a little easier, but in short the trick is rasping and checking for fit.


Ronald Aalders

[brian robertson]

Ron, might I add that it's best to trim the banana onto the hoof first then build the shoe to fit. Having a steel shoe to burn on for the final fit is easier but an aluminum is easier to alter on a stall jack so maybe it evens out.

Knowing hoof geometry helps fitting bananas but then again it helps with all shoes even nBS.

[Derin Foor]

Ron, might I add that it's best to trim the banana onto the hoof first then build the shoe to fit. .


When fitting banana shoes, I do a rough trim leaving enough foot to work with. Then I shape the shoe the way I want it and then trim for a final fit.....rasp, check fit, rasp, check fit, etc ;)

takes a while to get the hang of it but I like the results

Derin

[Roy Amaral CJF]

Ron,

Is the peak always placed directly below the center of articulation or is there a need to adjust it for a particular foot?

How is growth affected? I'd expect to gain some depth in front of the frog, but what happens to the growth pattern in the heel with this arrangement? I'd think you'd get even more rapid heel growth than normal?

How long between shoeings are you letting this go? Any pictures from the end of the cycle?

How abrupt is the transition from the slope to the toe to the slope to the heel? I'd think there shouldn't be a crisp point, but is there a flat spot at all?

Has anybody done any motion studies? What happens when ascending or descending a grade? How would different footing effect it? Jumping? Sharp turns?

:confused:

[CordesShoeing]

Hey Ron, Awsome job on that club. One of the horses I do now has 2 clubs in the front, The owner doesn't want to do shoes(plus I doubt the horse would stand for it) How would you trim the foot to allow for the best results. I don't have any pictures of it, but they look very similar to the pictures Patty posted. Thanks

-Chad

[Ronald Aalders]

As said before Baron asked me to do a presentation on banana's at the Farrier & Hoofcare Online Conference later this year. So I can't tell you guys everything, there would be nothing left for me to tell then :D

What I'm trying to do with clubs is to get the DDFT muscle to relax and let go of the coffin bone so to speak. Basically what I'm doing is to stop the tug of war contest between the DDFT and the lever holding the foot on the ground. I do this by allowing some give, by easing breakover.

When a horse is first shod with banana shoes it's easy to tell which one of its feet has a tendency to grow more heel. Ususally that's the one that rolls forward a little more then the other. Usually in a few days this is gone.

Not all horses respond to this! As the more experienced shoers among you know, there is no cure all! Not even a banana shoe that offers huge mechanical advantages over other types of shoeing is a cure all. But I did find that a lot of clubs respond well to this type of shoeing and the one that did not improve in heel/toe length, at least strain was reduced big time. Keeping horses sound a lot longer.

Brian mentioned trimming the banana roll in the foot prior to fitting. I don't do that. I trim the foot like I normally would, only leave more foot. Then I fit the shoe and forge the roll into it. Either by hand, or using a template I made. Then the rasp comes in. A steel shoe makes fitting a lot easier. Be sure to have enough foot though!


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Thank you Ron, this comes in a timely manner. TB off the track LF is a med grade club and the heels and toe have been left long when I first saw him his feet and frogs were a mess, no frog tissue, all eaten away from thrush. I shoe him every 3-4 weeks. I trim the foot to the sole plane, heels to widest part of the frog then use a Kirkhart SX-7 and rocker the toe. When I am done I notice his club foot heels are slightly off the ground while standing on the ties and thought about wedgeing him up, however he lands flat at the walk and trot. However he is haveing problems, starts off sound after I am done with him stays sound for about 3 to 4 weeks, the rider is takeing rideing lessons on him nothing really demanding, walk trot and canter for about 1/2 hour a few times a week and he get daily turn out with other horses in a large paddock. He pulls the shoe on the club foot and comes up sore about 3-4 weeks. He has done this 3 times now. This might be a good one to try the bannana with a wedge. Any other ideas?

[George Geist]

Ronald,
On these Banana shoes, Is the effectiveness of them diminished by ground conditions like soft mud, sand and so forth?

Also, how does the wear pattern effect them? Does it keep the curved shape through an entire shoeing cycle?

Is a very interesting concept
George

[Ronald Aalders]

Phil the banana is great and I would use it for sure, but you do need to practise shaping a banana. If you can't wait until November ;) first wedge the foot up with a regular square toed shoe. From what I gather from your post you did reduce heel length so the coffin bone was brought back in a more natural position, however you failed to address the DDFT pull that in fact was INcreased by lowering heels.

You really need a thorough knowledge of anatomy and maybe even more important a 'feel' how all parts in the equine foot work together. (Like when it is placed from the ground on to your toes and back :D )

What helped me a lot is try and visualize the coffin bone within the hoofcapsule, hanging on to the laminae and extensor on one side and the DDFT on the other. (Redden's 'hammock' analogy) With a normal foot it's easy to understand that when landing and loading, the posterior sole and frog push the digital cushion up towards the navicular area and ventral surface of the coffin bone. (Would that be the reason the coffin bone has this dome like shape to it? Me thinks so.) When you visualize this construction working on a club it's easy to understand the primary issue is the ánterior part of the foot. What causes pain is the compression of the apex of P3 on the sole and the squashing of all in between. The high heels may cause trouble when they get crushed but when they hold up as they tend to do on a club I don't think a club causes palmar hoof pain per se. Palmar hoof pain may cause a club though!

So what you need to do is lower the heels, that is lower the hééls. Do not even touch the anterior part of the sole. No matter how crumbly and messy that part of the sole is. Just lower heels, realigning P1, P2 and P3. Dr. O'Grady has a 'How To' paper on his website on this realigning deal. If you don't feel comfortable about this read it, it will help you to understand what needs to be done.

When realigned (yes, you really need X rays for optimum results here) DON'T forget that that's all you did. You realigned P3. By doing so you INCREASED DDFT pull! So address this! Use wedges, remember that ease of breakover enhance the effect wedges have. In very bad cases I not only wedge up the foot but use sole support, like Vettec's hoofpack too.

And also remember some horses really need a good vet, rather than a good shoer. Youngsters may be helped by a desmotomy of the check ligament below the carpus. In very bad cases you may even be looking at a tenotomy.

George, most of 'my' horses work in soft footing (western performance horses). The soft footing is no problem, it does not appear to reduce the mechanical effect of the banana.


Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

Roy Amaral CJF in black, me in red

Is the peak always placed directly below the center of articulation or is there a need to adjust it for a particular foot?

I never understood why you would want to get the roll anywhere else than directly below COA, unless you need some room to play with, like with laminitis cases

How is growth affected? I'd expect to gain some depth in front of the frog, but what happens to the growth pattern in the heel with this arrangement? I'd think you'd get even more rapid heel growth than normal?


I guess it's undisputed that a banana makes the sole grow very fast. Some claim a banana just makes the anterior part of the sole grow and not the posterior part especially the heels. While I first felt they were right I noticed that in most of those cases wedging heels up a bit more made all the difference.

How long between shoeings are you letting this go? Any pictures from the end of the cycle?

Yes of course but I'll use those in the presentation :p

How abrupt is the transition from the slope to the toe to the slope to the heel? I'd think there shouldn't be a crisp point, but is there a flat spot at all?

Some use a flat spot. I don't, I want more of a eclips shape to the ground surface.

Has anybody done any motion studies? What happens when ascending or descending a grade? How would different footing effect it? Jumping? Sharp turns?

I use banana's on cutters and reiners and the ones I use it on do very well. I don't know of any motion studies, but I know that here in Holland, Utrecht University spends a lot of money on such studies. Maybe some day they'll learn about the banana too :rolleyes:


Ronald Aalders

[smitty88]

nice work Ronald
do you have any pics of your work other than bananas

like to see good work
from the few pics i have seen of your work

with out picking the foot up is foot prep is
one of your high points

nice to see

[Ronald Aalders]

Sure Smitty.


Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

And some more?


Ronald Aalders

[Gary Hill]

NICE work Ron!

[Roy Amaral CJF]

I use banana's on cutters and reiners and the ones I use it on do very well. I don't know of any motion studies, but I know that here in Holland, Utrecht University spends a lot of money on such studies. Maybe some day they'll learn about the banana too :rolleyes: [/COLOR]


Does the University do studies of horses in normal footing or the treadmill? I'm thinking the treadmill stuff is worthless anyhow. Seeing horses move in real world conditions and slowed down to the point wher your eyes can better deal with it is really interesting. I'm curious how this shoe acts on less than flat surfaces or in a hard turn. ;)

Foot looks nice though. :)

[Phil Armitage]

Thank you Ronald, I understand what your saying about the anatomy of the foot and limb. With that said I think in a lot of cases it does not matter what we do because of all the variables related to anatomy due to differences in muscleing and strength of tendons, ligiment and joints. For one example conditioning, that hammock or sling you talk about can be weak or strong depending on the condition of the horse. Consider the various footing, speed and change of direction and impact on the legs a horse out of shape or poorly built would be predisposed to injury no matter what we do. A horse in very good shape and good conformation seem to handle all this no matter what we do. I have to admit still cannot get my head around the bannana shoe. The problem I have with it is the fact it does not hit the ground flat and this seems to me it would add another mechanical challenge on the foot and limb.

The TB that I am doing is a project horse for the owner and she is willing to do whatever to help this horse. What is interesting with this horse is what a mess his feet were when I first saw him the club foot heels were very long and alot of dishing in the toe and still in race shoes. The frog was totaly gone, split and trushy. With all that the previous owner claims this horse has never taken a lame step just retired from raceing because of his age, which makes sense to me. But his feet were a mess and he should have been very sore. About the worse thing happening with him is looseing shoes.

Anyways I trimmed the foot down, heels down and removed the dishing in the toe and shod him with a flat shoe. He did great for about 3 weeks and he pulled the shoe off the club foot and was sore. I reshod him flat shoe again and within a few days was comfortable again and did fine for another 3 weeks and pulled the same shoe and was sore in the club leg. Reshod him and again was sound within a few days. I also watched him work he lands flat and he runs and plays in his turn out, big turn out on a slight hill, seen him run at a full gallop. I reshod him last week and rockered the toe. So far he is doing well and is sound. Everytime I see him on the ties he stands with no weight on the heels of the club foot. :confused: When I see this I want to wedge him, however he lands flat and his heels and frog are starting to look great. I will take pictures the next time I do him.

[Ronald Aalders]

Everytime I see him on the ties he stands with no weight on the heels of the club foot. :confused: When I see this I want to wedge him, however he lands flat and his heels and frog are starting to look great. I will take pictures the next time I do him.


Phil, use wedges. Why hold on to this view you have on how the horse should land? This is not a normal foot, it's a club foot! The fact that somehow the horse manages to land flat does not mean a thing. The better job you did realigning the coffin bone, the more in need the horse is for wedges!

You don't need banana's to make a horse comfortable Phil. They make things a lot easier from time to time, that's all.


Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

Does the University do studies of horses in normal footing or the treadmill?
Foot looks nice though. :)


Recently a (promotion) study was done by a Dr. M. Van Heel, with Dr. W. Back as one of the promoters. Back is the co-author of "Equine Locomotion" the book I expect you know. This research was funded by Mustad, some manufacturer from Europe. :D

Anyway Van Heel ran tests on a stretch of pressure sensitive plates, hooked on to a computer. This allowed her to establish the way a foot was put down, what part of the shoe or foot hit the ground first and how long it took before the foot was fully loaded and how heel lift took place. And probably lots more.

I short they found that when a shoe has a rockered/rolled toe breakover is easier! See how important research is? :D :D

Van Heel has published several times on this subject in the Equine Veterinarian Journal. If I understand correctly this research I referred to here will be published in the Equine Vet. J. under Van Heel M.C.V., Van Weeren P.R. and Back W.; (2006b) Shoeing sound Warmblood horses with a rolled-toe optimises hoof-unrollment and lowers peak loading during breakover. Apparently accepted for publication.................



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Phil, use wedges. Why hold on to this view you have on how the horse should land? This is not a normal foot, it's a club foot! The fact that somehow the horse manages to land flat does not mean a thing. The better job you did realigning the coffin bone, the more in need the horse is for wedges!

You don't need banana's to make a horse comfortable Phil. They make things a lot easier from time to time, that's all.


Ronald Aalders

Thanks Ronald, I do appreciate your help. The next time I do him I am going to use a 2 deg bar wedge. Just got his frog in decent shape and his frog was infected pretty bad and sore when I first saw him. I am fearfull of useing any kind pad because of the long mud season we have had. Was at the barn today and the horse is off on the RH. His LF (club foot) is fine according to a Chiropractor that looked at him a few days ago. Says his RH is very sore in the stifle. I wonder if this is related to the LF??

[Ronald Aalders]

Me thinks so Phil. Me also thinks a 2 degree may well be underdoing it a little.............


Ronald Aalders

[Jaye Perry]

............. Was at the barn today and the horse is off on the RH. His LF (club foot) is fine according to a Chiropractor that looked at him a few days ago. Says his RH is very sore in the stifle. I wonder if this is related to the LF??
Most stumpy and or bona fide "club feet" will have a contralateral effect. Not stifle, usually hock.

X-Rays are the only way to determine if there is or is not manipulative aspects to the heels and coffin joints. "Line of Sight" and foot flight are not good indicators to shoe from.

I agree with Ron, pain , over a long period , will have causation to a Stumpy foot. Flexor muscle contraction is a response to pain. In the front legs the knee is locked before the foot hits the ground. The Extensor Carpi radialus(as) muscle and assiociated facsia will contract faster in response to pain.
This muscle is a indicator of pain in the lower limb during motion. The bicep is the flexor of the lower limb, it contracts at rest in response to constant pain.

So if you want an indicator of pain( Or the horse is just not quite right?) in the foot/lower leg without a "Head Bob", look for the contraction of the Extensor Carpi Radialas(us) at a jog/trot. It can be seen with the naked eye in comparison without slow motion video or video analysis. An assymetry of gait.
That is one of my secrets Phil you can have for your library. You may have to study your anatomy and physiology a little above the hairline.

[Phil Armitage]

Most stumpy and or bona fide "club feet" will have a contralateral effect. Not stifle, usually hock.

X-Rays are the only way to determine if there is or is not manipulative aspects to the heels and coffin joints. "Line of Sight" and foot flight are not good indicators to shoe from.

I agree with Ron, pain , over a long period , will have causation to a Stumpy foot. Flexor muscle contraction is a response to pain. In the front legs the knee is locked before the foot hits the ground. The Extensor Carpi radialus(as) muscle and assiociated facsia will contract faster in response to pain.
This muscle is a indicator of pain in the lower limb during motion. The bicep is the flexor of the lower limb, it contracts at rest in response to constant pain.

So if you want an indicator of pain( Or the horse is just not quite right?) in the foot/lower leg without a "Head Bob", look for the contraction of the Extensor Carpi Radialas(us) at a jog/trot. It can be seen with the naked eye in comparison without slow motion video or video analysis. An assymetry of gait.
That is one of my secrets Phil you can have for your library. You may have to study your anatomy and physiology a little above the hairline.

Thank you, I printed this out and will be studying. Makes sense. This horse does have a hitch in his stride , not head bobbing at the trot, I could see that yesterday while he was being worked. These folks found two TB off the track, both of them are great horses, temperment and mentaly. Tie good, safe, ridable, trailer good, great to shoe. Nice horses.

[Jaye Perry]

.................I short they found that when a shoe has a rockered/rolled toe breakover is easier! See how important research is? :D :D
..
Ronald AaldersIt's easier on the mechanics of the foot anterior to posterior when viewing the lateral X-Rays.

But what happens when the A/P view is evaluated; medial /lateral balance yes but shape and integrity of P3 has to be looked at also. The foot will mirror the bone in certain cases and in this case the frog and or frog pressure will keep them one sounder longer . Narrow boxy coffin bones in the "Club" or "Stumpy" foot respond better with shoes fit wider at the quarters and frog pressure.

Here are some X-Rays of a "Stumpy"- I classify it as "Stumpy" because there is room for manipulation within the coffin joint and heels.

[Jaye Perry]

Here is the A/P X-Ray of the same foot. Note the boxy narrow appearence, no apparent sign the normal look of the wings of P3.

[Jaye Perry]

Here is the bottom of the foot; note the thickening of the walls in the quarters compared to the heels and toe. This horse just got off the boat and vetted last week.

"Every hoof capsule tells a story"- Dr Andrew Parks, University of Georgia

[Jaye Perry]

Here are the feet before shoes.

[Jaye Perry]

After shoes, quality of pic suux, sorry

[Andrew Grimm]

Jaye, great pics. Could you please post a A/P pic of a normal coffin bone so I can see the difference between a "boxy" and "norm" coffin bone? Thank you.
Also, the heels look to fall right at the toe nails so do you consider the foot you've shown a "club" or just "stumpy"?
In the x rays, is the bony column in alingment?. You mentioned by looking at the lateral x rays you saw room for manipulation. How do you determine that? and what would you manipulate? Thank you.


Andrew Grimm


Anyone have any elvis? :D

[Jaye Perry]

Could you please post a A/P pic of a normal coffin bone so I can see the difference between a "boxy" and "norm" coffin bone?
Sure


Also, the heels look to fall right at the toe nails so do you consider the foot you've shown a "club" or just "stumpy"?

Stumpy, my own version. When the frog was cut back in the commissure, the heels narrow indicating there was room to cut them back .



In the x rays, is the bony column in alingment?.
No, the joint is somewhat flexed or cocked forward






You mentioned by looking at the lateral x rays you saw room for manipulation. How do you determine that? and what would you manipulate?
Look at the sole, sole depth is not even from toe to heel. Heel can be cut back, manipulated, and the coffin joint becomes more aligned.

[Jaye Perry]

here is the p3 in the other foot, note the wings

[Andrew Grimm]

here is the p3 in the other foot, note the wings

I'm not sure what's odd about the wings(I'm not sure what "norm" looks like).They definitlely don't look symetrical. The joint spacing doesn't look even to me. Is there always less joint space on the medial side? I can see the difference between a boxy and normal coffin bone. Thank you very much.


Andrew Grimm

[Phil Armitage]

I'm not sure what's odd about the wings(I'm not sure what "norm" looks like).They definitlely don't look symetrical. The joint spacing doesn't look even to me. Is there always less joint space on the medial side? I can see the difference between a boxy and normal coffin bone. Thank you very much.


Andrew Grimm

Andrew, a good way to see what is normal or abnormal is attend a clinic that is doing a disection. Mitch Taylor and Dr. Rooney do some pretty awsome clinics. Then when you look at an X-ray you know what your looking at. Sometimes when you look at the radiographs of a view taken from the front of the foot it looks like your looking at the back of the foot. :) The wings show some boney growth carteladge damaged and calsifyinig and some bone loss at the distal end of P3. Excuse the spelling. Constant cuncussion into the qauters could have caused this the lack of depth in the foot and posistion of P3 could be why the extra thickness in the qaurters in the hoof wall as compared to the thickness in the toe and heels. This is also painfull and sometimes you will also see harder discolored sole when the wings are close to the ground and putting more pressure into the sole. Needs protection and support. One more thing, lack of sole depth also causes poor circulation, because the cir***flex artery in compressed. The poor circulation can lead to bone loss, poor sole growth and poor horn growth. One of the reasons leaveing the toe calouse in place is so important.

[Jaye Perry]

I'm not sure what's odd about the wings(I'm not sure what "norm" looks like).They definitlely don't look symetrical.
That's fine, your looking.


The joint spacing doesn't look even to me.

No they are not



Is there always less joint space on the medial side?
correct, I couldn't get the whole x-ray in the pic- if I had you would have seen the wrinkled wall on the lateral side


I can see the difference between a boxy and normal coffin bone. Thank you very much.
Good, that means different shoeing protocals for each foot.

[Jaye Perry]

a good way to see what is normal or abnormal is attend a clinic that is doing a disection. Mitch Taylor
he probally needs to do a dissection, if he hasn't already

Dr. Rooney do some pretty awsome clinicsAndrew has had a personal clinic with Dr. Rooney; he , I and a few others had dinner and discussions.

. Then when you look at an X-ray you know what your looking atIn a basic format of looking in comparison of the bones. That is all. details of what the X-ray is telling is another facet.




. Sometimes when you look at the radiographs of a view taken from the front of the foot it looks like your looking at the back of the foot. :)Use the correct terminology Phil, Oh that's right you spelling suux.




The wings show some boney growth carteladge damaged and calsifyinig and some bone loss at the distal end of P3There is no cartilage on the distal end of P3, Distal end of P3 is not an articulating surface. Do not teach what you do not know, especially if you can't spell the big words properly.

. Excuse the spellingYour excuse(S) for not spelling properly shows that you are lazy.

. Constant cuncussion into the qauters could have caused this the lack of depth in the foot and posistion of P3 could be why the extra thickness in the qaurters in the hoof wall as compared to the thickness in the toe and heelsNo, the shape of hoof is comparative to the bone. The foot is generating components to protect the internal portions due to lack of bone. horses under saddle will increase GFR in the quarters. Again stop pontificating on things you have no clue about.




. This is also painfull and sometimes you will also see harder discolored sole when the wings are close to the ground and putting more pressure into the sole. Needs protection and support.Another blanket statement, the horse has plenty of structure in the sole, horn and frog. A plain aluminum shoe was applied with a rocker toe; rockered at the distal tip of P3. You really need to gain more knowledge about what you are trying to teach.




One more thing, lack of sole depth also causes poor circulation, because the cir***flex artery in compressed. The poor circulation can lead to bone loss, poor sole growth and poor horn growth. One of the reasons leaveing the toe calouse in place is so important
You got a couple things correct here, but it is esoteric and mis-spelled again. The toe callous can be be detrimental if left un-manicured. Prodigious sole growth in the toe can create the esoteric maladies you mentioned.

[Phil Armitage]

he probally needs to do a dissection, if he hasn't already

Andrew has had a personal clinic with Dr. Rooney; he , I and a few others had dinner and discussions.

. In a basic format of looking in comparison of the bones. That is all. details of what the X-ray is telling is another facet.




. Use the correct terminology Phil, Oh that's right you spelling suux.





There is no cartilage on the distal end of P3, Distal end of P3 is not an articulating surface. Do not teach what you do not know, especially if you can't spell the big words properly.

.Your excuse(S) for not spelling properly shows that you are lazy.

. No, the shape of hoof is comparative to the bone. The foot is generating components to protect the internal portions due to lack of bone. horses under saddle will increase GFR in the quarters. Again stop pontificating on things you have no clue about.




. Another blanket statement, the horse has plenty of structure in the sole, horn and frog. A plain aluminum shoe was applied with a rocker toe; rockered at the distal tip of P3. You really need to gain more knowledge about what you are trying to teach.





You got a couple things correct here, but it is esoteric and mis-spelled again. The toe callous can be be detrimental if left un-manicured. Prodigious sole growth in the toe can create the esoteric maladies you mentioned.


I never said there is carteladge at the distal end of P3. Look at the ac***ulation of bone at the caudle and proximal end of P3 Side bone that is carteladge. The distal end of P3 shows bone loss, notice the roundness and loss of sharp edge. Normal coffin bones are crisp and sharp. This foot shows signe of excessive cuncussion, could be a big horse with small feet, hard work, lack of sole depth, improperly trimmed feet who knows. My spelling does suck, who cares, I don't. Just read for content and context. At least I am participateing, if I came down for a visit I would not have to spell and if you threw a wise crack I could get you in a head lock and give you a noogie and a wedgy. We could wrestle and see who says uncle first. :D :D

[Jaye Perry]

I never said there is carteladge at the distal end of P3.
Yes you did.



Look at the ac***ulation of bone at the caudle and proximal end of P3 Side bone that is carteladge.Side bone? That's typical for you when you get caught not knowing what the hell you are talking about.


The distal end of P3 shows bone loss, notice the roundness and loss of sharp edge.From what Phil, do you know? Doubt it.

Normal coffin bones are crisp and sharp. This foot shows signe of excessive cuncussion, could be a big horse with small feet, hard work, lack of sole depth, improperly trimmed feet who knows.If you don't know, then why do you make assumptions and pontifications?
The horse is big, he wears #4 shoes- your theory is wrong, hard work no- wrong again the horse is not even broke to ride. He has plenty of sole thickness for his conformation and body structure, you are making assumptions from books and stuff you read and not experience.

My spelling does suck, who cares, I don't. Just read for content and context. At least I am participateing, if I came down for a visit I would not have to spellA lot of people care, you are a grown man. It shows you ignorance about a lot of things.

and if you threw a wise crack I could get you in a head lock and give you a noogie and a wedgy. We could wrestle and see who says uncle first. :D :DYour are a psychotic mess Phil, you blathering shows a pertinent stage of psychosis- Acute phase: psychotic symptoms, such as hallucinations(Halo of morality), delusions(all knowing and all seeing), disorganised behaviour(Spelling) and disorganised thinking are experienced(changing subject matter to suit your inequities)

[Phil Armitage]

Yes you did.



Side bone? That's typical for you when you get caught not knowing what the hell you are talking about.


From what Phil, do you know? Doubt it.

If you don't know, then why do you make assumptions and pontifications?
The horse is big, he wears #4 shoes- your theory is wrong, hard work no- wrong again the horse is not even broke to ride. He has plenty of sole thickness for his conformation and body structure, you are making assumptions from books and stuff you read and not experience.

A lot of people care, you are a grown man. It shows you ignorance about a lot of things.

Your are a psychotic mess Phil, you blathering shows a pertinent stage of psychosis- Acute phase: psychotic symptoms, such as hallucinations(Halo of morality), delusions(all knowing and all seeing), disorganised behaviour(Spelling) and disorganised thinking are experienced(changing subject matter to suit your inequities)

Sorry Jaye, not participateing anymore, gave Smitty my word. :D

Will discuss horses anytime if you like.

[SlowShoe]

And some more?


Ron,
I see you have one labled SHASTA3.JPG. WHats that mean exactly?

=]

[Ronald Aalders]

Ron,
I see you have one labled SHASTA3.JPG. WHats that mean exactly?

=]

Just the name of that mare Josh.

Ronald Aalders

[Complete Equine]

OK, dont laugh. I have a silly question from a new farrier. If you were shoeing a horse with one severly club foot and the other normal, would you put a banana shoe on both feet or just the clubby one? Can you describe the protocol for differences in shoeing of the two feet? Thanks

[Wade_Shoes]

Julie,
I think its time to go back to basic anatomy. Horses generally have FOUR feet :p .
Wade

[Red Amor]

Orrr Whatz Goin On !!!??

[Rick Burten]

Wade,

I'm confused :confused: :confused:

Did Julie not ask a very specific question?

Julie,

Obviouisly I'm not Ron. However, the answer for me is, It Depends. If the non-club foot has no 'issues, then I'll often used a flat shoe that is going to provide correct breakover and heel support. Too often, the non-club foot has issues of its own and would also benefit from the application of a banana shoe.

rick

[Wade_Shoes]

Wade,

I'm confused :confused: :confused:

Did Julie not ask a very specific question?

rick

Rick,
Sorry, just a poorly worded joke.
Wade

[Rick Burten]

Rick,
Sorry, just a poorly worded joke.
Wade
Ah. No problem then.

Rick

[Complete Equine]

No, this horse really only has two feet. You should see it try to walk! (Really, I don't even think the banana shoe will help at this point....)

[SlowShoe]

Obviously a banana with a flat foot side makes using a banana a lot easier. But as far as I know only Redden offers those. And although they're very good, they're very expensive too!


Ron you should seriously talk to Ray about this. He might be able to make these shoes at reasonable cost to farriers, especially if you can get him the market!

[smitty88]

Ron if the Banana shoe was not avalible to you
what shoe would you use and how would

you dress say a club 1 foot

[Ronald Aalders]

I would, and have, followed the same principles Smitty.

This is what my mentors taught me Smitty:

Realingn or derotate (learned that from my mentors, that aspect has been known for decades) by lowering heels. Probably just to come to matching heel angles. That's why you were supposed to start your trim with the high heeled foot first.
What I learned to do later is too just trim heels and not even touch the anterior part of the foot. You leave sole depth under P3 and get a more aggressive realignment that way.

Then use a steel shoe with a blunt toe like a Kerckhaert warmblood SN or DF hind pattern. Bring the toe back so the shoe is in the middle of the foot. Easing breakover was done decades ago too in such cases. Maybe not as much with the theory behind it we have now, but just to be able to center the shoe around what was thought to be the middle of the foot. If you lower heels big time you will automatically move a shoe further back if you want to keep supporting leg and shoulders with your shoe fit. Roll the toe big time.
What I learned to do later is square and taper the toe. The roll makes you loose foot mass.

Use a leather pad because often heels are sore. When a horse stays sore weld on heel raisers. If needed use a sole support from fine unbraided rope and tar.
What I do later is almost always use a wedge pad and sometimes add hoofpack.

I always found it surprising that a lot of the solutions we use today have been around for decades or longer. Overall we have not really come up with new ideas, what we have done is a lot of fine tuning that's all.



Ronald Aalders

[smitty88]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/smitty88_2006/P1010419.jpg
Ron and the gang here is one i have to shoe on wednesday next
came from England last week

would like all your oppinions
havent got xrays as yet
dont know how to put all pics on at once so sorry

[smitty88]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/smitty88_2006/P1010420.jpg

the workmanship could have been better

[smitty88]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/smitty88_2006/P1010417.jpg

[smitty88]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o112/smitty88_2006/P1010421.jpg
what would the package for both front feet

[calshoer]

Ill address the non club foot first, the right front. Because it is the one that is actually going to cause this horse the most problems. It appears to be a bit convex on the dorsal hoofwall surface, which usually indicates a negative palmer angle to the coffin bone. If you were to get hoof alignment Xrays you would probably be surprized at where the bone is inside that one.
Those negative plane coffin bone feet need more frog support in the very caudal portion to correct the angle of the bone internally and support the coffin joint. Leaving heel on them to try to raise the angle is contraindicated.
It appears that in previous attempts to align and match the hoof angles from a strictly visual aspect (or with a hoofguage) , the heels of the RF have been allowed to grow far too long and have seriously run under,driving the whole hoof capsule more forward.
I woud trim the heels of the right front back to the level of the live sole plane at the buttresses.As far as I could go safely. This will bring the heels lower than the live frog which will better engage the frog and help align the coffin joint. Then I will walk the horse a bit on something safe....smooth concrete barn aisle, or rubber mats, or rock free dirt.
If he lands toe first, I will shoe with a full wedge pad ,as much wedge as it takes to get a slight heel first landing. I may add caudal frog support ,depending on how the frog hoof tests, to even more align the coffin joint and correct the negative plane . If the frog was prolpapsed below the trimmed heels , a plain wedge pad will gently "sling" it up into the foot without adding intolerable pressure.
The breakover would be moved back to a spot no more than 1 1/4" ahead of the trimmed frog apex, and any overhanging hoof well rolled on the bottom edge . No dubbing the toe !
Shod in this manner the bulge in the dorsal hoofwall usually dissappears within only one or two shoeings, as the negative plane bone is supported caudally and realigned. Sometimes it is gone by the next shoeing.

Then to the club foot, the LF.
I would trim heel only down to a bit the level of the live sole plane. Then I walk the horse a few minutes to see if the landing is toe first, flat, or heel first. If it is either heel first or flat, then I simply shoe with a breakover placed closer to the tip of the frog as in the other foot .Setting the breakover point on the shoe will usually achieve a heel first landing in a formerly flat landing bare foot. .
If it goes toe first in the test walk, I will shoe it with a wedge package. And frog support in the club foot via equipack or a frog pad or whatever will help the heels and frog get a bit wider.
I never try to make the hoof angles match, nor the toe lengths. I only want both feet to land the same amount of heel first. If they are doing that the horse is moving as evenly as he can, and over time the two feet will actually change and match more and more. It happens as the upper body moves more evenly due to treating the two feet as individuals.
Patty .

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Smitty,

My using banana's, only has to do with the fact that banana's are the most efficient shoes I know to reduce breakover/heel lift forces. But my theory on clubs is the same, with or without banana's.

Looking at the feet you posted we're looking at a high heeled and a low heeled foot. In fact the low heeled is really close to being underrun. Look at the lateral pic where you can already see the line where the heels will crack and fold under the foot. The high heeled foot is not even close to a problem club here. It's a grade 1 or less. In fact looking closely at these feet I'm pretty confident the problem we need to work on here is the low heeled foot, rather than the high heeled foot.

I don't like the approach to treat feet like these separately too much. But maybe that's just me. I don't even like to use different sizes of shoes in such cases. The reason is that front feet help support the body and not just the shoulders. The shape, size, angles all have an immediate effect on the back too. I'm always very careful not to make problems bigger than they are by shoeing feet differently. I want them to come together as much as possible simply because different sizes, different ground lengths and different angles per foot, each have their own effect on the way the horse moves and uses its body. You don't want to separate that, you want each foot to do it's full 50% (or 25% if you look at the even bigger picture). You want to unite feet and body not get them further apart.

So now what to do? Although it may sound boring, first of all you need to trim the heels -not just the toe- of the low heeled foot simply because the way the heels are now, they can not carry the burden. Trim heels back to the widest part of the frog. Be sure to end up with heel tubules that can carry the load. Even if the heels end up lower than you'd like. The high foot needs work too. Even in a case where such a foot could be considered normal you need to lower heels. You need to get those feet together as much as you can. Without it there is no way a horse get straighten itself out and relax the pulling force in the muscles attached to the high heeled foot and tighten the one on the low heeled side. Not that I'm implying that a horse can cure itself fully, but you don't want to be in the way of any help the horse can give you either.

When trimming the high heeled foot even in a moderate case like this one appears to be, just trim heels. Trim from the tip of the trimmed frog backward, don't touch the toe. In this case, after trimming heels rasp the foot flat towards to toe. (When using banana's you don't need to do this because you need a roll to fit the banana anyway.)

Most likely you'll end up with a low heeled side one or two degrees lower than the high heeled side. Both feet need wedging! But I'm not in favour of compensating for any difference by adding extra wedges on the low heeled side. I think other issues are way more important; being caudal support and breakover.

If you look at the trimmed heels on the low foot side you'll notice that the spot where the heels touch the ground is much further forward than on the trimmed high heeled side. So what you need to do is make sure both feet have an equal caudal support. Use the plumb line technique. You want the heel support to start at the same spot from that plumb line down from the center of the cannon left and right. Use the high heeled side as a reference for the low heeled side. Where you may think this forces you to use a bigger shoe on the low heeled side allowing for more caudal support there, you may find this is not the case. Because you need to synchronise breakover too. When feet are not too much distorted use the tip of the frog as a reference for breakover like the Natural Balance System describes it. When doing so you may find that the toe on the low heeled side sticks out over the shoe a lot more than on the high heeled side. That's no problem. As long as the coffin bones in both front feet have the same physical breakover lever (COA to tipping point) and the same physical support lever (COA to where heels or shoe end).

If you focus on this you will find that there are not many of such feet that require different sizes of shoes. The reason is that the low heeled foot appears to be in need of a bigger shoe, but gets compensated for that because the shoe needs to be brought back more. Usually it's not different lengths of shoes you need in such cases, but different widths (does that sound English?)

I hope this helps a little.



Ronald Aalders

[horseshoer123]

:) Ron, Nice job. I would have taken the easy way out and put a NBS on and called it good. Excellent craftsmanship... :)
Phil

[smitty88]

Hi Smitty,

My using banana's, only has to do with the fact that banana's are the most efficient shoes I know to reduce breakover/heel lift forces. But my theory on clubs is the same, with or without banana's.

Looking at the feet you posted we're looking at a high heeled and a low heeled foot. In fact the low heeled is really close to being underrun. Look at the lateral pic where you can already see the line where the heels will crack and fold under the foot. The high heeled foot is not even close to a problem club here. It's a grade 1 or less. In fact looking closely at these feet I'm pretty confident the problem we need to work on here is the low heeled foot, rather than the high heeled foot.

I don't like the approach to treat feet like these separately too much. But maybe that's just me. I don't even like to use different sizes of shoes in such cases. The reason is that front feet help support the body and not just the shoulders. The shape, size, angles all have an immediate effect on the back too. I'm always very careful not to make problems bigger than they are by shoeing feet differently. I want them to come together as much as possible simply because different sizes, different ground lengths and different angles per foot, each have their own effect on the way the horse moves and uses its body. You don't want to separate that, you want each foot to do it's full 50% (or 25% if you look at the even bigger picture). You want to unite feet and body not get them further apart.

So now what to do? Although it may sound boring, first of all you need to trim the heels -not just the toe- of the low heeled foot simply because the way the heels are now, they can not carry the burden. Trim heels back to the widest part of the frog. Be sure to end up with heel tubules that can carry the load. Even if the heels end up lower than you'd like. The high foot needs work too. Even in a case where such a foot could be considered normal you need to lower heels. You need to get those feet together as much as you can. Without it there is no way a horse get straighten itself out and relax the pulling force in the muscles attached to the high heeled foot and tighten the one on the low heeled side. Not that I'm implying that a horse can cure itself fully, but you don't want to be in the way of any help the horse can give you either.

When trimming the high heeled foot even in a moderate case like this one appears to be, just trim heels. Trim from the tip of the trimmed frog backward, don't touch the toe. In this case, after trimming heels rasp the foot flat towards to toe. (When using banana's you don't need to do this because you need a roll to fit the banana anyway.)

Most likely you'll end up with a low heeled side one or two degrees lower than the high heeled side. Both feet need wedging! But I'm not in favour of compensating for any difference by adding extra wedges on the low heeled side. I think other issues are way more important; being caudal support and breakover.

If you look at the trimmed heels on the low foot side you'll notice that the spot where the heels touch the ground is much further forward than on the trimmed high heeled side. So what you need to do is make sure both feet have an equal caudal support. Use the plumb line technique. You want the heel support to start at the same spot from that plumb line down from the center of the cannon left and right. Use the high heeled side as a reference for the low heeled side. Where you may think this forces you to use a bigger shoe on the low heeled side allowing for more caudal support there, you may find this is not the case. Because you need to synchronise breakover too. When feet are not too much distorted use the tip of the frog as a reference for breakover like the Natural Balance System describes it. When doing so you may find that the toe on the low heeled side sticks out over the shoe a lot more than on the high heeled side. That's no problem. As long as the coffin bones in both front feet have the same physical breakover lever (COA to tipping point) and the same physical support lever (COA to where heels or shoe end).

If you focus on this you will find that there are not many of such feet that require different sizes of shoes. The reason is that the low heeled foot appears to be in need of a bigger shoe, but gets compensated for that because the shoe needs to be brought back more. Usually it's not different lengths of shoes you need in such cases, but different widths (does that sound English?)

I hope this helps a little.



Ronald Aalders


Thanks again Ronald