Bleeding

[George Geist]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have heard old timers often talk of "bleeding" a foundering horse to relieve internal pressure and thus minimize hoof damage.

Question I have is do any of you have any experience doing this? If so, could you explain exactly how this is best done and what results positive or negative you might have had? Thanks,
George

[calshoer]

I have seen this method referenced in VERY old farrier/veterinary books. (from the 1700's,early 1800's and such) They used to actually bleed the horse directly from his jugular vein, until he nearly (or did) faint. I sure wouldn't recommend it.
The nearest thing in modern times I have seen is the practice of applying a support shoe (heart bar) in the acute phase, BEFORE rotation, and at the same time resecting the dorsal wall to prevent pressure under the wall from swelling. In theroy it is to help prevent rotation due to edema under the wall, but I sure wouldn't try it. If he hasn't rotated yet I sure not going to butcher the hoof capsule.
Edema as a cause for rotation is disputable anyway. Most rotation and sinking is from weight bearing through the bony column and pull of the DDFT. But hey if its your own horse ,and you want to stick him with a huge guage needle in the jugular and mop up the mess later, go for it. :eek: ;)
Patty

[George Geist]

No Patty,
I know what your talking about as far as the jugular and wasn't talking about that at all.

What I referred to was the practice of either drilling or cutting into the hoof wall similar to what humans often do when they mash their nail. By burning or drilling through to let the blood out it gives instant relief and saves the nail from being lost.

This treatment for humans got me to thinking about this which I havent heard about for a long time. I've heard Amishmen swear by it but most people too young for social security have never heard of it.
George

[Donnie Walker]

George - I have a client who has this procedure administered to a chronic case about every 3 months by her vet. I have never been present to see it done but am told that a needle is placed just above the coronary band directly in the center of the dorsal aspect of the hoof. The blood, which will be almost black in color, will squirt out about two feet. If it is red in color then the procedure is stopped. I do know that the mare is always better after this procedure is performed.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

George Geist in gray

What I referred to was the practice of either drilling or cutting into the hoof wall similar to what humans often do when they mash their nail. By burning or drilling through to let the blood out it gives instant relief and saves the nail from being lost.

At a late 80s clinic at Bear Creek Stables in Houston, I saw Burney Chapman apply heart bars on a hot founder, then drill a couple of holes into the dorsal surface of the hoof walls, about an inch or so from the ground surface. The holes were about 3/8" in diameter and he drilled two in each hoof. While Burney drilled, the horse was nailed to the ground in the typical camped out attitude of a foundered horse. There was little bleeding until the horse was moved. When the horse was moved, blood squrted out the holes damn near chest high the first couple of steps, then the spurts got progressively smaller with each step. The horse also got progressively better with each step and was walking much more freely after being led about 50 feet.

Most folks who were around at the time and doing much veterinary stuff, self included, have experimented with drilling holes through the wall of hot founders after applying heart bars, but nobody I know ever got quite the altitude and hang time that Burney did. Personally, I thought it was a case of no vale la pena, so I used less pressure and didn't have to mess with drilling holes through the wall and worrying about bouncing a drill bit off the dermal corium. Styrofoam, dental impression material, and similar stuff, was not in use at the time.

[n.b. Patty: Because bleeding occurs with laminar dysfunction, hydraulic pressure is a demonstrable effect of P3 rotation and the incompressibility of fluids suggest the effect is additive.]

[Roy Amaral CJF]

I don't know about bleeding, but opening the dorsal wall at the wall/sole junction to drain abcess and keep it form progressing to undermine the sole and frog can prevent some bigger troubles doun the road. :confused:

[Gary Hill]

I wonder if applying leaches on the coronary band would do the same? Modern medicine is using sterile maggots on open wounds to clean up the dead flesh? Interesting topic! Best, Gary

[Ronald Aalders]

A major contributor to the pain felt by a foundered horse is the pus build up inside the rigid hoofcapsule. Often the pus build up starts to be a problem 4 to 6 weeks, with big loads of NSAID's sometimes later, after the onset of the laminitis. The picture often is that of a relapse. The horse went through the tearing of laminae and often rotation. In a lot of cases that process stops sooner or later and the coffin bone comes to a grinding halt somewhere inside the hoofcapsule. Adequate shoeing can limit the destruction inside the hoofcapsule here.

By the time the coffin bone finds a new (unwanted) balance the compression caused by rotation has caused necrosis already, not much pain there anymore. The tearing of the laminae is a process (hopefully) shoeing has dealt with, not too much pain there anymore either.

So the question is how to get rid of the pressure of the pus inside the hoofcapsule. Drilling holes works and I like the fact it makes closing it easier. Obviously the laminar wedge is a mess already, but I see no reason to add anything to the fun going on in there by allowing manure and/or shavings in as well. Hey, not everyone has their laminitic cases boarded at a nice professional clinic :rolleyes: . Drilling is however sometimes tricky, not every horse will just stand there while a hole is drilled. Another thing is the hole needs to be above the sole, or else it won't do much good :D When drilling, whatever tool you use, be sure you use some kind of stop on the bit. You don't want to be drilling, feel yourself plunge through the wall and drill and additional hole in the coffin bone :eek: (There is no pus build up in the coffin bone :cool: )

A saver way to get rid of the pus is to rasp away the toe in a 45 degree angle with the ground and make a small cut in the thinned sole-wall junction you'll find sooner or later when rasping. (Sometimes you don't need to cut. Nice sharp rasp and there it was! Messy but sure did help!) Don't overdo the cut! You do not need any more damage to the sole wall junction than needed to get rid of the pus.

And don't make the mistake to leave the foot as is after dealing with the pus, Check the shoeing protocol. Make sure DDFT pull is reduced as much as possible (use wedges and address breakover), provide adequate sole support, derotate/realign when needed. If you fail to do that the hole will drain for a long time.............


Ronald Aalders

p.s. I was told that the bleeding had something to do with the concept of poor blood in a horse. As Patty said we're talking way back here. They even had special tools to do it. The fact that it appeared to help in laminitic cases sometimes may have something to do with lowering blood pressure. Maybe at the acute stage of laminitis?

[Maryann Kleynendorst]

The vet I usually work with is also an acupuncturist. She uses acupuncture needles inserted into the coronet band to "bleed" feet that are in the acute phase of inflamation. Haven't ever heard her say anything about black/versus red blood tho. The procedure does seem to give very significant pain relief. Before she came to this area we were sorely lacking in vets and were sort of left to our own devices. I have drilled through the dorsal wall on some to provide relief from "pressure" pain. It worked but the acupuncture needle thing in the acute stage seems to work just as well, they don't seem to have the "relapse" 6 weeks down the line and seems less invasive.

take care and stay safe

Maryann

[George Geist]

Ok,
This is the stuff I was looking to hear about. If this works as it appears to, then I must wonder why its not done more often? I had also heard about the dark colored as opposed to red blood too. That is indicative of a lack of oxygen as it would if coagulated.

For drilling the hole in the hoof is it ony one hole or is it a pattern of holes? Or does it really even matter?

In the case of a vet tapping it with a needle above the hairline. I never heard of this but from what you all say that appears to work too. Again I must wonder why this isn't done more often? Treatments such as this rightfully ought to be discussed to keep them from being lost to history-especially if it works!
George

[mwmyersdvm]

If there is a pocket under the hoof capsul of serum or pus this will work. However, if you are dealing with edematous laminae it will not and may actually open up an avenue for an infection to occur. As for the treament to periodically relieve pressure in a chronic laminitis, if the farrier and vet would get together to learn the technology to properly balance this hoof and allow for a correct healing environment, this procedure will no longer have to be done.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Wow, what an interesting thread. Does anyone have pictures?

[OK mustang]

I'm not a farrier, but I once used an 'old timer' farrier (no teeth, drove a 1960's something pontiac wagon (small boat size --for his work, and laughed like a mule!) who discussed this option with me for one of my horses. He said he had not done it in a while, but he had previous success with it in cases where it was 'justified.' His description of the process was 'you just cut and cut (the hoof) and let it bleed and bleed. His description and reasoning sounded reasonable at the time, but we did not think my horse was a real candidate for this procedure. I'm thinking the reason this is not done much anymore is one, there are few who actually do it and two, it sounds so horrid that there probably wouldn't be a lot of taker uppers from clients. I do think that if this procedure was brought more to the forefront of modern farrier practice, along with the scientific back up, it might help some othewise hopeless, painful cases of laminitis/founder.

[George Geist]

Mustang,
Try to overlook the superficial. There were horseshoers before StoneWell. Sounds like this guy was a good one.
George

[mwmyersdvm]

Cm'on guys, you are talking about ancient "remedies" that probably killed many more horses than they helped. The problem with most of these old remedies are the same as many of the herbal and other "alternative" remedies. They shout out the occasional success, but never say a word about any failures. We all know that here is no remedy that is 100% successful short of euthanasia ( and I have heard of botched tries at that as well).
We need to step back and use a bit more common sense. We have a wealth of technology that is often overlooked or deliberately ignored. We have tested remedies and we have remedies that are based in sound anatomy, physiology and biomechanics. Let's give them a try before we jump back to frog's eyes and bat wing broth.

[George Geist]

Dr Myers,
To the best of my understanding all we are talking about here is relieving pressure from trapped blood which has no place else to go. Herbal vs AMA medicine is an entirely different subject.

If we can cut open abscesses to treat them it makes me wonder why we cant do that with trapped blood?

I for one certainly wouldn't discount anything done by Burney Chapman who did this as witnessed by Mr. Stovall.

The one thing we can all agree on though is that in recent years especially since the death of Secretariat, millions of dollars have been spent on founder research. In spite of that, researchers, vets, and horseshoers seem to be just as confounded by it as ever.
George

[mwmyersdvm]

I can understand a need to relieve pressure, but one must first ascertain that there is actually blood trapped beneath the horn. Laminar edema would not be assisted with direct invasion and could actually be damaged by such a procedure. I see many people reading only a small portion of a treatise and then applying it to every case they see that has the slightest shred of similarity. I am just advising caution and common sense. The thread seemed to be going along the lines that invading the lamellar junction was a prudent thing to do in cases of laminitis. It often is not.
While laminitis is a confounding problem, we actually do know a great deal about it and how to keep it under control far better than we did even 5 years ago. Getting people to go along with the newer data is far more difficult than getting it to work when it is applied.
My best example of this is the resistance of owners, farriers, and even veterinarians to routinely radiograph laminitic cases using excuses like expense, no need - they already know how it will appear, and the five most expensive words that can be uttered "Let's just wait and see..." There are specific measured parameters that can pick up earlier cases than we could in the past. No special equipment is needed just the knowledge of how to use the equipment and the result.
Sorry for the length, kind of a personal soapbox. I always feel we miss more by not looking than by not knowing.

[tbloomer]

(deletia)I see many people reading only a small portion of a treatise and then applying it to every case they see that has the slightest shred of similarity. I am just advising caution and common sense.(deletia)

Doc,

Yer' a preachin' to the choir . . . now if we couold only get the congregation to wake up! :)

[jack-mac]

G,day all have been bleeding horses which have been foundering for many years only we drain from the jugular instead of the old method from the corn of the heal we usually drain any wear between 5 & 20 Lt depending on size and weight of the horse why does it work because it lowers the blood pressure and helps lower the levels of proteins enzymes and ketones which a having a toxic affect allowing the kiddies & spleen & liver to cope it prevent the horse from developing lymphangitis, as for the black liquid substance that from inside the hoof capsule ,it is blood mixed with dead bone matter

[Joey Aczon]

Sorry for coming in so late, but...

I have seen (photos) of where a farrier used a dremel to groove the front of the hoofwall half to an inch or so below the coronet band to allow the lower portion of the hoof to rotate forward in relation to the coronet band and take pressure off of the coffin bone without the drilling and bleeding. Has anyone else seen this, or done this? It seems to make sense to me, but I also don't treat (or give advice on) laminitis, just lurk about and soak up info. I do see, however, how it could run heels under. There was a great deal of distortion in the tubules at the heels where the wall was not grooved.

btw, I am new to the board here, hailing from Caldwell, TX. Formerly Sun Valley, CA

[Complete Equine]

Just to add my two cents: If you read James Herriot ("All Creatures Great and Small" series) he talks about "bleeding" a foundered horse. The treatment back then (1940's-ish) for acute founder was to stand the horse in a cold stream, drain 1-2 gallons of blood from the jugular, and hope for the best! I think the idea was to alleviate the immediate pain and swelling in the hooves. Kinda interesting how we've progressed, huh?

[jack-mac]

Sorry for coming in so late, but...

I have seen (photos) of where a farrier used a dremel to groove the front of the hoof-wall half to an inch or so below the coronet band to allow the lower portion of the hoof to rotate forward in relation to the coronet band and take pressure off of the coffin bone without the drilling and bleeding. Has anyone else seen this, or done this? It seems to make sense to me, but I also don't treat (or give advice on) laminitis, just lurk about and soak up info. I do see, however, how it could run heels under. There was a great deal of distortion in the tubules at the heels where the wall was not grooved.

btw, I am new to the board here, hailing from Caldwell, TX. Formerly Sun Valley, CAWell i wouldn't come to Australia & try that one on or you will find your self in court & i will be the bloke marching you there its nothing less than butchery, we had two vets struck off 8 years ago for practicing some thing similar they were lucky not to do gaol time there crack pot idea was to remove the hole of the periople, the horse never walked again and was in extreme pain, i put it down i was one of the team police vets & farriers who gave evidence after investigations we discovered they had performed the same procedure on 9 horses with the same results. defenition of ******ity is when you keep applying the same logic but end up with the same poor result.

[Joey Aczon]

There is a NB based school in Washington that seems to be doing this on a regular basis. www.missionfarrierschool.com check their case studies. I think I found a link for them on the edss website actually

[danverschild]

Well i wouldn't come to Australia & try that one on or you will find your self in court & i will be the bloke marching you there its nothing less than butchery....

Not butchery, but a viable practice when done properly. First usage I know of was by Henry Heymering... was further developed and practiced by Dave Ferguson.

Ferguson and Andrea Reitmiester (an Aussie veterinarian in residence at Purdue University at the time) did an extensive research project on the practice and presented it to the AAEP ten or twelve years ago.

It's not "bleeding" though. It's an alternative to a dorsal wall resection, and the starting point isn't arbitrary; it's determined radiographically.

[Rick Burten]

Thanks for posting that Danvers. I was getting ready to reply in much the same manner.

Hoof wall grooving is not a new thing and it has been used successfully by many, myself included.

Now, tapping a jugular and draining copious amounts of blood out of a horse, that might be considered, criminal :eek:

The practice of bloodletting at one time, was a standard practice in human medicine. IIRC, it was a major contributor to the demise of George Washington.

Rick

[calshoer]

Well jacmac, experience with one poor vet does not make a case. There is a time and place to do a grooving or dorsal wall resection or release. A wall 'release' loosens the already detached section of dorsal wall from the rest of the capsule without removing it completely, and the laminae are dead underneath it before that, so the horse feels no pain. A resection removes the section and exposes the tissue underneath. A grooving is a partial release.
And either must be done in conjunction with specific shoeing to prevent the foot capsule from collapsing .
It is NOT for every founder. The criteria for deciding it if may be needed involves very specific criteria that includes radiographic measurements and clinical signs .
Done correctly it immmediately widens the top of a constricted hoof capsule to relieve the painful effects of the laminellar wedge shrinking into or over the top of the extensor process of P3 and thereby allows relocation (moving up) of a sunken the coffin bone inside,and increased circulation for wall regrowth.

Certainly if done at the wrong time, by a person without a full understanding of the criteria necessitating it, and understanding of ALL the mechanics, or without the accompanyng suppoirtive shoeing, of course it would fail.
But done at the RIGHT time,in the RIGHT cases, in the right manner, and accompanied by the right shoeing, it has saved many seriouisly foundered horses lives who were otherwise failing.

EDSS promotes wall "release", not full resection, just to make that clear.
It leaves the patch of detached wall over the dead laminae in place , to protect the underlying tissues and help maintain moisture for faster wall regrowth.
Patty

[jack-mac]

Done "properly" & when it isn't then what is "it" that's the problem & who determines properly?& would the out come be the same if it wasn't performed ? was the horse put thou unnecessary pain & suffering the case i talking about involved a 4'' grinder which was used to strip the hole of the hoof wall back to the lamina on all four feet then they were bandaged the horse lay in a paddock for 2 weeks unable to stand before the owner a brain dead ***** stopped believing the two quacks feel good storeys & cock & bull theories & called another vet which i attended with the horse was severely dehydrated & stressed the remainder of what was left of its feet were rotting the horse was shot by me & the police called in if that isn't butchery then i don't know what is removing the hoof wall on a foundering horse dose not address what is taking place inside the hoof cap-shell & that is the pedal bone enlarging & the over production of lamina it is foolish to think it will make a difference to the out come by hacking away at the hoof wall the size of the coronet determines the size of hoof & the new hoof growing down which hacking away will not change:confused:

[jack-mac]

Thanks for posting that Danvers. I was getting ready to reply in much the same manner.

Hoof wall grooving is not a new thing and it has been used successfully by many, myself included.

Now, tapping a jugular and draining copious amounts of blood out of a horse, that might be considered, criminal :eek:

The practice of bloodletting at one time, was a standard practice in human medicine. IIRC, it was a major contributor to the demise of George Washington.

RickFair dinkum was poor old George Washington foundering you learn some thing new every day:)

[Hopalong]

Fair dinkum was poor old George Washington foundering you learn some thing new every day:)
If a horse has severe pain even after months of onset...get some cojones and go after the sub solar abcesses...it's not blood.

A small hole will do, establish good drainage, let gravity work in your favor

And no, it's not an anitseptic issue

You look like a hero for two minutes work.

[Rick Burten]

Digging for abscesses is veterinary work. Unless the farrier is concurrently a veterinarian(or vice versa), s/he has no business playing archeologist. You may be a hero but the odds are you'll end up the goat. YMMV

rick

[Hopalong]

Digging for abscesses is veterinary work. Unless the farrier is concurrently a veterinarian(or vice versa), s/he has no business playing archeologist. You may be a hero but the odds are you'll end up the goat. YMMV

rick
Hasn't happened yet. 32 years and counting....and as far as I know I'm allowed to pare out the bottom of a horse's foot with a hoof knife, and while doing so just so happened to uncover an abcess.

The veterinarians I know, don't know how to use a hoof knife, they're too busy looking at x-rays....probably with you.

[jack-mac]

If a horse has severe pain even after months of onset...get some cojones and go after the sub solar abcesses...it's not blood.

A small hole will do, establish good drainage, let gravity work in your favor

And no, it's not an anitseptic issue

You look like a hero for two minutes work.Have drained an abscess before the trick is to try & prevent it from getting to that stage one of the problems is horse owners & some professionals have swallowed the notion hook line & sinker that sugars are the course of founder i don't believe that to be the case my own studies in to founder & laminitis does not support that thesis so I'm guessing horse owners are going to keep needing heroes

[Rick Burten]

Hasn't happened yet. 32 years and counting....and as far as I know I'm allowed to pare out the bottom of a horse's foot with a hoof knife, and while doing so just so happened to uncover an abcess.
Different situation that the one I responded to. You now are talking about something of an entirely different nature and something that is within the domain of the farrier. Before you were talking like Indiana Jones on an archeological dig.
The veterinarians I know, don't know how to use a hoof knife, they're too busy looking at x-rays....probably with you.
You need to cultivate a better group of Vets. The vets of my acquaintance are adept with either.

Rick

[Hopalong]

Different situation that the one I responded to. You now are talking about something of an entirely different nature and something that is within the domain of the farrier. Before you were talking like Indiana Jones on an archeological dig.

You need to cultivate a better group of Vets. The vets of my acquaintance are adept with either.

Rick
Don't embellish my words..original post said I open up a sub solar abcess with a hoof knife...plain and simple.

Try it sometime.

What I see all the time are farriers kissing up to veterinarians for referrals, trying to hob nob and sound important.

Personally, I don't need, or want, their referrals...and I know for a fact that I'm not important.

I don't need to cultivate anything...and I'm calling BS on the vet being "adept with a hoof knife"....

Any time, any where , any vet...show up, I'll even sharpen the knife for them...and we'll see what they can do

Reminds me of a monkey with a football

[BS-Horseshoeing]

I got one, he put himself through vet school shoeing horses so he could make horses his specialty of sorts. Man, what the heck have you got against vets? One of them show you up one time or something? You must know everything there is to know, you must be a ****** special shoer.

Oh, I forgot, one Dr. Steven O'Grady might do a pretty dang good job. I watched him remove a canker and do some very fine work with a hoof knife as well as scalpal.

[jack-mac]

whats going on here guys I'm usually the one who's the football getting kicked around :D

[Rick Burten]

Don't embellish my words..original post said I open up a sub solar abcess with a hoof knife...plain and simple.
No, what you actually said is :

"If a horse has severe pain even after months of onset...get some cojones and go after the sub solar abcesses...it's not blood.
A small hole will do, establish good drainage, let gravity work in your favor"

And that Hoppy, is practicing veterinary medicine. And its far different from what you later tried to use to cover your faux pas.

You, sir or madam, are hoist by your own petard. ROTFLMAO!!
Try it sometime.
Nope. While my momma may have raised fools, she didn't raise i-d-iots. If a subsolar abscess vents while I am performing my regular and routine duties, thats one thing. But I don't diagnose and excavate. That's not my job, not within the parameters of my job description and not worth even the slimmest chance of litigation. YMMV.
What I see all the time are farriers kissing up to veterinarians for referrals, trying to hob nob and sound important.
What I read here is somebody with an ax to grind.
Personally, I don't need, or want, their referrals...and I know for a fact that I'm not important.
Its good that you know your worth and value. Makes life a lot simpler doesn't it.
I don't need to cultivate anything...and I'm calling BS on the vet being "adept with a hoof knife"....

Any time, any where , any vet...show up, I'll even sharpen the knife for them...and we'll see what they can do
You want to place a friendly wager here Hoppy?I'll even let you set the parameters. Lets start with I'll show up with some vets, if they perform as I predict, you pay all our expenses and an additional $5,000.00 to each one of us. If they don't perform to standard, we'll proclaim to the world that you are in fact, important, wise and someone to be reckoned with. I'll even have T-shirts with your picture and that fact, printed up and handed out.

So how about it Hoppy? Wanna dance?

Rick

[Rick Burten]

whats going on here guys I'm usually the one who's the football getting kicked around :D
You complaining?

[Rick Burten]

Oh, I forgot, one Dr. Steven O'Grady might do a pretty dang good job. I watched him remove a canker and do some very fine work with a hoof knife as well as scalpal.
Not to mention one Dr. Tookie Myers or one Dr. Scott Morrison. Dr Tracey Turner. Dr. Tom Monfort. I'm sure we could come up with a few more. Why I bet that Tom Stovall might know one or two.

Sure hope Hoppy wants to dance!

Rick

[jack-mac]

Hasn't happened yet. 32 years and counting....and as far as I know I'm allowed to pare out the bottom of a horse's foot with a hoof knife, and while doing so just so happened to uncover an abcess.

The veterinarians I know, don't know how to use a hoof knife, they're too busy looking at x-rays....probably with you.Its very foolish digging for a suspected abscess if it hasn't capsulated you run the risk of horse developing blood poisoning or introducing a secondary infection the horse should be placed on antibiotics before you start searching its commonscents best practice

[SlowShoe]

Its very foolish digging for a suspected abscess if it hasn't capsulated you run the risk of horse developing blood poisoning or introducing a secondary infection the horse should be placed on antibiotics before you start searching its commonscents best practice

Sorry Jac, but that looks like a voice of reason. You letting your wife post on the forum again? :D

Good on ya mayte.

[Hopalong]

[QUOTE=Rick Burten]No, what you actually said is :

"If a horse has severe pain even after months of onset...get some cojones and go after the sub solar abcesses...it's not blood.
A small hole will do, establish good drainage, let gravity work in your favor"

And that Hoppy, is practicing veterinary medicine. And its far different from what you later tried to use to cover your faux pas.

You, sir or madam, are hoist by your own petard. ROTFLMAO!!

Nope. While my momma may have raised fools, she didn't raise i-d-iots. If a subsolar abscess vents while I am performing my regular and routine duties, thats one thing. But I don't diagnose and excavate. That's not my job, not within the parameters of my job description and not worth even the slimmest chance of litigation. YMMV.

What I read here is somebody with an ax to grind.

Its good that you know your worth and value. Makes life a lot simpler doesn't it.

You want to place a friendly wager here Hoppy?I'll even let you set the parameters. Lets start with I'll show up with some vets, if they perform as I predict, you pay all our expenses and an additional $5,000.00 to each one of us. If they don't perform to standard, we'll proclaim to the world that you are in fact, important, wise and someone to be reckoned with. I'll even have T-shirts with your picture and that fact, printed up and handed out.

So how about it Hoppy? Wanna dance?

Rick[/QUO

Talk is cheap, and the fanciest talkers do the ****iest work

FYI...

Customer of mine of 15 years...3 Welch ponies, two Warmbloods, and a miniature donkey..

Pinky, one of the ponies, eats too much green grass one spring and has a bout of laminitis... no vet involved....gets better after about 3 months

Next spring, same thing..this time vet is called and we get x rays and front shoes for about 3 months, pull shoes pony, is fine.

Third spring, same thing...this time we have to have a reverse shoe...I say, "aren't those for people who don't know how to make bar shoes"?
Have to have a reverse shoe..fine..I make one...I don't put a shoe on backwards..

When I go to do the horses on schedule, I'm told that the vet is going to have his farrier do the pony...fine

I return again in about another seven weeks and Pinky is laying down in the stall...my apprentice says.."looks like they reset our shoes, but didn't take any foot off him"

I go again in seven weeks and Pinky has two bandages on both front legs...I ask about these and am told that he had surgery on both check ligaments

He's still wearing my shoes, and his feet are a mile long..

Six weeks later, there is a message on my machine from this same vet (he has a million dollar clinic about 90 miles south of here) telling me about trimming heel and all the BS he has to say to sound important

I haven't worked on this horse in almost 5 months

When I show up at the barn Pinky is still lying down

We take him out, he's got a MILE of foot on him and drain huge sub solar abcesses out of all four feet...damn near instant relief.

I call this vet and tell him what's going on..

He says to me.."do you think that was why he was in so much pain"...

I said, "It would be a good place to start"

My purpose after 32 years in this business is to expose the BS, old wives tales, and fraud

I know a lot of really good farriers, none of them work for vets

Vets don't want good farriers, they want "Yes" men, little kiss a**es.

I'll stand by everything I've said...this business is a joke, and it's not just my opinion.

[Rick Burten]

I'll stand by everything I've said...this business is a joke, and it's not just my opinion.
So why you still in it? Guy like you might feel better about himself if he was selling washing machines to little old ladies at Sears. Or working as a Fuller-Shick salesman, door to door is Adak, Alaska. Or selling oil to ragheads in Saudi Arabia, or something.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Rick Burten in gray

RE: Veterinary competency with a hoof knife

Not to mention one Dr. Tookie Myers or one Dr. Scott Morrison. Dr Tracey Turner. Dr. Tom Monfort. I'm sure we could come up with a few more. Why I bet that Tom Stovall might know one or two.

I've never met an equine practitioner who wasn't a pretty good hand with a hoof knife. On the other hand, none of 'em could sharpen a hoof knife worth squat. Quite often, the first thing one hears on arriving at a vet clinic is, "Damn, I'm glad to see you: Can you sharpen my knives for me?"

On a more serious note, a hoof knife is not an exploratory tool and a farrier's using one to establish drainage in a suspected abscess without veterinary instruction is an invitation to litigation. We've probably all done it at one time or another, but it ain't the smartest thing in the world to do because three-legged lame with sensitive sole prolapsed through a crater of one's making might just lead to a different set of folks living in one's house: CYA!

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Have drained an abscess before the trick is to try & prevent it from getting to that stage one of the problems is horse owners & some professionals have swallowed the notion hook line & sinker that sugars are the course of founder i don't believe that to be the case my own studies in to founder & laminitis does not support that thesis so I'm guessing horse owners are going to keep needing heroes
Erm can't wait to see your theory which will presumably revolutionise the world of horse ownership and send me falling off my chair. I won't hold my breath though ;)

[jack-mac]

Erm can't wait to see your theory which will presumably revolutionise the world of horse ownership and send me falling off my chair. I won't hold my breath though ;)I have been studying founder for over 25 years in horses sheep goats & cattle & will tell you there thesis is wrong i still keep attending founded cases who's owners have strictly followed the recommned feeding the anecdotal & there so call scientific research doesn't stack up when some one wants to pay me for my findings well you won"t be able to shut me up but an till then i wont be letting my cat out of the bag no ones getting a free lunch not even to prove a point with you Thomas as much as i would love to wipe the floor with you :)

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

Have drained an abscess before the trick is to try & prevent it from getting to that stage

In my experience, it's mighty tough to drain an abscess before it resolves.

one of the problems is horse owners & some professionals have swallowed the notion hook line & sinker that sugars are the course of founder

I came in late. Who said sugars are a primary cause of founder?

Researchers at Michigan State U, Purdue U, and Texas A&M U have published stuff indicting high concentrations of carbohydrates, not sugars, as being a primary cause of systemic laminitis/founder in horses. Those same folks cite ruminal acidiosis resultant of feeding high concentrations of carbohydrates as being the primary cause of laminitis/founder in cattle.

Do sheep and goats founder? All I remember about foot problems in sheep and goats is that foot rot is a problem and the causative organism of foot rot in sheep and goats is not the same bug that causes foot rot in cattle - but the bug that causes foot rot in cattle is the same bug that causes thrush in horses. Small world.

i don't believe that to be the case my own studies in to founder & laminitis does not support that thesis so I'm guessing horse owners are going to keep needing heroes

I must've missed the part about a sugar hypothesis: Where's it published? As to your "studies", please be aware that the plural of anecdote is not data.™ :)

[Forgewizard]

Tom queries:

Do sheep and goats founder?Well, I don't know about sheep and goats. But cows and pigs get laminitis.

The difference may be in their hoof construction Tom. Sheep and goats have a huge "pad" of sorts that may allow room for considerable swelling. Sheep and Goat hooves are more like just a strong nail at the front of the toe.

While a Pig and a Cow actually have a hoof encasing the front portion of their toes.

I think also the difference is in the digestive tract.

Horses and pigs are simple stomached animals. They are also animals known for their gluttony and will happily overeat themselves into trouble.

Ruminants like sheep and goats will eat till their stomach is full and then chew their cud so the food actually gets chewwed, predigested, and finally digested again.

Sheep and goats are ruminants and have two chambered stomachs.

While cows have four chambers and are ruminants also, the dairy cows especially are fed high carbohydrate diets and undergo stressful situations daily. They are kept on concrete, fed constantly to increase their milk production and if you've ever worked in a dairy farm the parlor style arrangement is quite stressful, which we all know can be a laminitic trigger for horses.

check out www.safergrass.org (http://www.safergrass.org) for the plant sugar studies of fructans and such. It was a very interesting topic at the LAmintis Conference in West PAlm last year.

regards,
Kim

[jack-mac]

Tom mate sugars are carbohydrates (carbohydrate chemically Any of a class of organic compounds which are polyhydroxy aldehydes or polyhydroxy ketones or change to such substances on simple chemical transformations, such as hydrolysis oxidation or reduction including sugars starch & cellulose, they form the supporting tissues of plants

[jack-mac]

So its a pretty safe bet to make there clam & pretty hard to disprove it the perfect con job for the moment however its wrong & in time it will be disproved as the cause of founder

[Forgewizard]

JAck-mac,

there is no doubt that carbohhydrate overload causes laminitis.

Check out www.laminitisresearch.org (http://www.laminitisresearch.org) Dr. Chris Pollitt is a leading veterinary researcher on Laminitis and has deliberately induced laminitis in horses using carbohydrate overloading as well as a couple other trigger factors. Check out his site - there is some great news there!

Regards,
Kim

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

Tom mate sugars are carbohydrates (carbohydrate chemically Any of a class of organic compounds which are polyhydroxy aldehydes or polyhydroxy ketones or change to such substances on simple chemical transformations, such as hydrolysis oxidation or reduction including sugars starch & cellulose, they form the supporting tissues of plants

You're painting with way too broad a brush. Carbohydrates are organic substances that include sugars, starch and cellulose. The digestion of a particular carbohydrate depends upon the complexity of the carb's molecular structure, and the more complex it is, the harder a horse's digestive system has to work in order to break it down and absorb it into the bloodstream. When I went to school, carbs came in several flavors: monosaccharides, (dextrose or corn sugar); fructose, (fruit sugars and galactose); disaccharides, (sucrose, table sugar), lactose (milk sugar) and maltose; polysaccharides (starches); and very complex carbs (cellulose).

(carbohydrate chemically Any of a class of organic compounds which are polyhydroxy aldehydes or polyhydroxy ketones or change to such substances on simple chemical transformations, such as hydrolysis oxidation or reduction including sugars starch & cellulose, they form the supporting tissues of plants

Your chemistry isn't quite complete. Carbohydrate overload is dependent on the digestability (breakdown) of a particular carb - and the more simple the molecular structure of the carb, the more readily it's digested and the quicker its impact on the animal, a fact that might lead one to think that any carb readily converted to sugars might be more likely to cause a laminetic episode than the more complex carbs, like tree bark.

Closer to home, I have personal knowledge of a researcher who foundered a bunch of horses back in the 80's and 90's - all by means of simple carb overload.

[jack-mac]

JAck-mac,

there is no doubt that carbohhydrate overload causes laminitis.

Check out www.laminitisresearch.org (http://www.laminitisresearch.org) Dr. Chris Pollitt is a leading veterinary researcher on Laminitis and has deliberately induced laminitis in horses using carbohydrate overloading as well as a couple other trigger factors. Check out his site - there is some great news there!

Regards,
Kimthank you for that have crossed paths before his at QLD university "oz" funny thing he is still foundering horses after 15 years & $10million + so he must have the answer wrong his telling every one he has the answers you would look pretty dame ****** if you spent all that money & gave all those lectures if you didn't tell every one you did any one can founder a horse "its knowing why its foundering that matters" ask your self why is he still foundering them ? I have meet the man his not the sharpest tool in the shed

[jack-mac]

Tom I was only pointing out that sugars are carbohydrates if i thought you wanted a full chemical analysis I would of given you one but as i can see for my self you already knew that so why the Pun?

[Forgewizard]

JAck-mac posts:

thank you for that have crossed paths before his at QLD university "oz" funny thing he is still foundering horses after 15 years & $10million + so he must have the answer wrong his telling every one he has the answers you would look pretty dame ****** if you spent all that money & gave all those lectures if you didn't tell every one you did any one can founder a horse "its knowing why its foundering that matters"

Jack,

Dr. Pollitt isn't the only one that has dumped tons of bucks into lamintiis research. There have been untold horses foundered in the name of research ever since horses have been used!
I hate to think of the bucksRic Redden has spent too!

I think Dr. Pollitt has done a world of good to discover and provide information of this horrible problem!

Just his info on the basal membrane in the hoof and its role in nutrient and O2 exchange sheds a lot of light onto the mechanics of laminitis. His info regarding MMPs is good too.

Discovering the exact triggers and mechanics of laminitis is the key to knowing how ro remedy or halt it.

He has already proven that if the horse is stood in an ice slurry within 8 to 12 hours of systemic insult (NOT after the horse is already showing signs of laminitis) that the laminitis can be stopped! This in itself will save tons of horses!

Being able to do this first aid of course means the horse mgr needs to monitor the horse and know what is going on before there is trouble.

I also think Dr. david Hood has some interesting views and studies on laminitis. I for one will continue to pay for lectures given by both men as well as others.

Schools dump tons of bucks into purchase of dead animals in oder for their students to learn how to dissect them. Just because that particular species of animal had been dissected by previous students, hadn't ought to prevent current students from learning. There is always the chance a new technique or new discovery can be had by a different pair of eyes!


regards,
Kim

[jack-mac]

You see that is just the sort of misiformation that gets my blood boiling the worst thing you can do when a horse is foundering is to place Its hoofs in water that only aids the pedal bone in dropping you need to get the horses body temperature down & house it in a cool place keep the feet dry & i repeat keep the feet dry if you want to cool the feet put them in thick plastic bags then submerge them if i had a dollar for Evey horse i have shot from owners believing that soaking there hoofs is beneficial thinking they are helping there horse I could have retired years a go

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Do sheep founder?

Now I've got 2,000 of them! Yes sheep can and do get laminitis and founder and absolutely no different to horses.

Inadequate blood flow in the hoof caused by digestive problems ordinarily resultant from the excessive intake of grain (grain overload, acidosis). The only difference is that sheep usually die before the feet become involved. But recovered sheep have unusual foot growth and/or permanent lameness.

Laminitis in horses and other stock as a condition is not fully understood and that is why there is still significant research being undertaken by scientists and vets.

However a lot is already known as fact.

So its known that the cause of almost all laminitis is poor digestion. Horses have digestive systems that are complex and I'd say, over-engineered! (As an engineer I have a slogan on my wall that says "If its not broken it doesn't have enough design features") But primarily they're designed to be "trickle feeders" of low grade forage.

The hind gut is extremely complex with a resident microbial population to break down cellulose into basic components and problems in this area are known to cause imbalance and release of acids and toxins.

When food is not broken down properly in the hindgut of a horse, acids and toxins are produced which leak into the body and damage blood vessels and organs throughout the body. When blood vessels and cells that feed the feet are affected in this way the amount of blood flowing down to the sensitive laminae is reduced and they become swollen.

So its not a simple case of "too much sugar" or "too much carbohydrate" though its more likely than less likely that a horse with a high sugar/carbohydrate diet will be unable (with its digestive system) to tolerate such excess.

There are also alternative theories that suggest that toxins affect horn growth and that these are the cause of most laminitis.

Known facts are that rich grass can cause the problem at any time of year and even frosty grass in the winter can damage the digestion in the gut so much that the wrong sort of bacteria start to multiply and release toxins. Sudden ingestion of large amounts of cereal or concentrate feed. Large amounts of rich food in the gut cause a lot of acid production and again encourage the growth of the wrong sort of bacteria.

Hormonal imbalance such as Cushings Disease can cause it. And in addition any infection in the body which might produce enough toxins to damage the blood vessels and thus cause it. So such as womb infections after foaling are a particularly well-known cause. In addition pounding of the feet can cause sufficient damage to the laminae to cause concussion laminitis.

Stress also make horses more likely to get it though again its believed because it plays a part in digestion.

[Gary Hill]

Fever of anykind usually results in higher blood pressure. When that occurs the extremities such as the feet are prone to damage as the heart works harder to pump blood from the lungs with oxygen. Cells die without the oxygen the blood carries to them. Kinda like a stoke in the brain, only that the cells in the brain can't reproduce as the ones in the feet can. Ice and cold water can bring down body temps and relieve the problem somewhat. Early attention is most important so one can catch it before damage occurs, but ususally isn't. I don't know of alot of folks that soak their horses feet daily,must be some ritual downunder? If you need to soak a foot for an abcess in the sole you can always paint some kind of oily substance on the hoof wall and coronary band to counter the excess moisture. Best, Gary

[jack-mac]

still think its carbs Thomas sheep die pretty quick

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

still think its carbs Thomas sheep die pretty quick

There seems to be a trend developing but once again I haven't the faintest idea what you are trying to say to me????

Hopefully when your theory on laminitis is published it will be written in a style that I and others can comprehend.

[jack-mac]

There seems to be a trend developing but once again I haven't the faintest idea what you are trying to say to me????

Hopefully when your theory on laminitis is published it will be written in a style that I and others can comprehend.Hope fully you wont falling of your chair when you read it would hate for any one to do them self a mischief :)

[Forgewizard]

Jack-mac,

Sorry dear, but your "theory" about soaking hooves only causes P3 to come through the hoof is NOT correct!

The hoof is already filled with fluids and the wall, sole and frog have quite a bit of moisture in them. Don't beleive me? Ever see how much a hoof trimming curls as it becomes dehydrated?

If your theory about soaking hooves were correct then every monsoon season here in Florida would result in horseowners having to deal with foundered horses right and left. Although this year was quite dry, I've seen years where the horses are standing in water up to their knees for weeks on end. While abscesses may occur more frequently with the horses owned by owners that can't equate soft hooves with the need for more careful riding, The horse's bones certainlyaren't falling out!

Sure the hooves are soft, and other waterlogged issues of the skin abound, but the bones in the hoof remain in the hoof in their normal position. The hoof wall is rather like a sponge - once it is full of water, you can't get any more in. Since the hoof interior is already soaked with blood and body fluids present in the circulation, what do you propose happens to this blood? Is it replaced with the soaking water?

The hoof does NOT get so soft that it falls apart!

Regarding lowering the body temp to cure founder, well if you've read the research done by others besides Dr. Pollitt, you will have discovered that in the initial phases of laminitis that the horse's body temp DOES lower and if an owenr is tuned in to their horse enough, knows that say the horse got into the feed and feels cool hooves, that the next step in the laminitis trip is an acceleration of the horse's temperature, so can prevent further progression of the laminitis by simply putting the horse in an ice slurry.

Laminitis simply means an inflammation of the laminae. So what is done for any inflammation elsewhere on the horse? ICE, cool water, more ice! Whty would the circulation of the hoof require anything different?

IF the laminitis has already progressed to founder, then you have passed the window of opportunity for the ice soaks to be effective. Pollitt has outlined that very nicely and proven it clinically.

The same amount of blood flows thtough the horse's limbs as that that passes through the rest of their body - afterall the legs and hooves are part of the circulatory system.

Pollitt has shown also the natural mechanism in thehorse's limbs that actually OPEN blood flow in the lower limbs and hooves when the temperature of the limb falls below 40*F which is why horses don't get frostbite.

With this natural mechanincal opening of the vein shunts a horse in the beginning stages of laminitis is helped because the blood KEEPS circulationg when other toxins in the blood and tissues are trying to shut it down!

As for the disrupted digestive system causing laminitis, well, that goes back to that basal membrane exchange. The same tissue responsible for cellular exchange in the intestinal tract is what is found lining each and every lamina! So it stands to reason that what is toxic to the basal membrane in the gut, will be toxic to the basal membrane in the hoof. When this membrane dies the laminar attachments let go. Pollitt has shown this to happen.

Maybe you haven't had a chance to absorb what he has researched?

Regards,
Kim

[calshoer]

I have been studying founder for over 25 years in horses sheep goats & cattle & will tell you there thesis is wrong i still keep attending founded cases who's owners have strictly followed the recommned feeding the anecdotal & there so call scientific research doesn't stack up when some one wants to pay me for my findings well you won"t be able to shut me up but an till then i wont be letting my cat out of the bag no ones getting a free lunch not even to prove a point with you Thomas as much as i would love to wipe the floor with you Dr. Pollitt can founder a test horse on purpose in 24-36 hours with a carbohydrate overload. Or prevent it with a cold water slurry done at the same time .
And he has shown biochemically what happens step by step to the basement membrane of the laminae and why the laminae come apart in such cases.
But I guess you are a much better qualified biochemist/ hystologist ?So if your findings are truly scientific and can be reproduced and thereby proven, then you should be able to get it published in a peer reviewed venue...if you can't get it publushed but it is SO great that the world needs to know, publish it yourself and sell it.....you should make millions. I'll be waiting to buy it. :rolleyes:
Patty

[jack-mac]

Dr. Pollitt can founder a test horse on purpose in 24-36 hours with a carbohydrate overload. Or prevent it with a cold water slurry done at the same time .
And he has shown biochemically what happens step by step to the basement membrane of the laminae and why the laminae come apart in such cases.
But I guess you are a much better qualified biochemist/ hystologist ?So if your findings are truly scientific and can be reproduced and thereby proven, then you should be able to get it published in a peer reviewed venue...if you can't get it publushed but it is SO great that the world needs to know, publish it yourself and sell it.....you should make millions. I'll be waiting to buy it. :rolleyes:
PattyAnd i can do it in about 8 hours and with no carbohydrates so it proves nothing one shouldn't jump to conclusions there are many triggers but only one fundamental in all of them & its not carbohydrates some times people cant see the wood for the trees believe what you will enjoy the sand

[Forgewizard]

Jack-mac,

If your laminitis theory is so divergent from what others have researched and proven and published why don't you post your theory here?

What better way to get input *freely* than in a farrier's forum? At the very least you'll get anecdotal replies. Maybe even some pictorial case studies and maybe even some corroberation!

Its easy enough to point fingers at someone and say they don't have a clue that "I" know better, but we here like to see the proof in the pudding!

Especially with a problem like laminitis which afflicts so many horses and often time needlessly. If you've got a provable theory, then by all means 'splain it to us!

Unless of course you are waiting on the patent office; but then again your theory could be displayed with its "patent pending" status.

Many of us here have tried new things and we've posted the procedures here, and we've gotten critiques and ideas from the forum participants. That's what this exchange is for.

I for one would be interested to hear your theory and see your proof! ANd I'm already sitting down, so don't worry about me falling over after reading it!

Regards,
Kim

[jack-mac]

Jack-mac,

If your laminitis theory is so divergent from what others have researched and proven and published why don't you post your theory here?

What better way to get input *freely* than in a farrier's forum? At the very least you'll get anecdotal replies. Maybe even some pictorial case studies and maybe even some corroberation!

Its easy enough to point fingers at someone and say they don't have a clue that "I" know better, but we here like to see the proof in the pudding!

Especially with a problem like laminitis which afflicts so many horses and often time needlessly. If you've got a provable theory, then by all means 'splain it to us!

Unless of course you are waiting on the patent office; but then again your theory could be displayed with its "patent pending" status.

Many of us here have tried new things and we've posted the procedures here, and we've gotten critiques and ideas from the forum participants. That's what this exchange is for.

I for one would be interested to hear your theory and see your proof! ANd I'm already sitting down, so don't worry about me falling over after reading it!

Regards,
KimIts not a theory its fact there's no money in putting it on this forum as i said before no one gets a free lunch so you will just have to ridicule me & fidicule me fire away do i care NO I DONT do i know why animals founder YES I DO

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

Its not a theory its fact

Fact?

According to the scientific method, one observes a phenomenon, formulates a hypothesis, then tests the hypothesis. If the tests confirm the hypothesis, then one publishes both the hypothesis and the means used to confirm it for review and further testing by one's peers.

Farriery is chock full of cockamamie theories, untested hypotheses, and junkscience - and everybody from Strasser to Bowker is guilty of skipping a few steps in the scientific method, so your failure to adhere to its basic tenets places you in good company. Or, bad.

there's no money in putting it on this forum as i said before no one gets a free lunch

Free lunch? What free lunch? Lunch involves victuals on the table, not empty plates.

so you will just have to ridicule me & fidicule me fire away do i care NO I DONT do i know why animals founder YES I DO

With exactly as much credibility as is contained in your statement, one could claim to have created life from swamp water. In reality, anyone can claim anything - but when they do, some mean ol' skeptic like myself is probably going to have the temerity to point out that claims without demonstration have all the impact of distant mouse flatulence. :)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

And there goes my tea on the key-board!

Amusing and succinct posting Tom

[jack-mac]

jack-mac in gray

Its not a theory its fact

Fact?

According to the scientific method, one observes a phenomenon, formulates a hypothesis, then tests the hypothesis. If the tests confirm the hypothesis, then one publishes both the hypothesis and the means used to confirm it for review and further testing by one's peers.

Farriery is chock full of cockamamie theories, untested hypotheses, and junkscience - and everybody from Strasser to Bowker is guilty of skipping a few steps in the scientific method, so your failure to adhere to its basic tenets places you in good company. Or, bad.

there's no money in putting it on this forum as i said before no one gets a free lunch

Free lunch? What free lunch? Lunch involves victuals on the table, not empty plates.

so you will just have to ridicule me & fidicule me fire away do i care NO I DONT do i know why animals founder YES I DO

With exactly as much credibility as is contained in your statement, one could claim to have created life from swamp water. In reality, anyone can claim anything - but when they do, some mean ol' skeptic like myself is probably going to have the temerity to point out that claims without demonstration have all the impact of distant mouse flatulence. :)Did that include sheep cattle goats & pigs in that hypothesis or was it better to leave them out because it just might make a mockery of it but seen as I'm a dill & your a genius maybe you can explain in detail what is actually taking place in the horses body when it ingests carbohydrates please enlighten me wise one I'm all ears ?

[jack-mac]

And there goes my tea on the key-board!

Amusing and succinct posting Tombrown nose

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray, his claim of special knowledge in brown

RE: Its not a theory its fact there's no money in putting it on this forum as i said before no one gets a free lunch so you will just have to ridicule me & fidicule me fire away do i care NO I DONT do i know why animals founder YES I DO

Did that include sheep cattle goats & pigs in that hypothesis

It's your hypothesis, not mine.

or was it better to leave them out because it just might make a mockery of it

"Just might?" If it snows in Houston in July, it just might make a mockery out of the weatherman, but it ain't happened yet. Please be kind enough to deal with reality, not idle speculation, wild supposition, and imaginary scenarios.

but seen as I'm a dill & your a genius

Mercy me! A genius? Why did I get downgraded to "genius" by pointing out the intellectual folly of your making unsubstantiated claims relative to the triggering mechanism of founder in horses?

maybe you can explain in detail what is actually taking place in the horses body when it ingests carbohydrates please enlighten me wise one I'm all ears ?

Other than stating I have personal knowledge of a researcher who foundered quite a few horses by means of carbohydrate overload in the 80s and 90s, I haven't made any claims relative to the role of carbohydrates in founder. [Please see <http://www.tard.state.tx.us/index.php?mode=Listing&rl_id=810>.]

On the other hand, you've made a specific claim of having some special knowledge of the triggering mechanism of founder based on your "research"; thus, it's incµmbent on you to provide substantiation for those claims when challenged, not on a skeptic to disprove those claims. In effect, you're asking folks to believe what you say on the basis of your having said so, not on demonstration, something that places you in the same category as other folks in the belief business - preachers, priests, rabbis, mullahs, witch doctors, shaman and their ilk.

I'm not a big fan of belief as a substitute for knowledge: If you can back up your statements, please do so; otherwise, your claims will be rightfully relegated to the muckpile of self-aggrandizing wishful thinking. Put another way, you bring to mind a gunsel who has wandered into a South Texas cowboy bar and is trying to impress the locals with his tales of great and wondrous deeds in the rodeo arena while wearing a boughten buckle. :)

[Rick Burten]

Jack, you been playing around in the medicine cabinet again? didn't your mamma warn you against that?

You're sounding just like those other stalwarts that have from time to time appeared on these forums with claims of knowledge that is unique only to them, and with the same hyperbole of "if you want to know what I know, then you gotta pony-up(sory about the pun). Now pony -up is an interesting term. It has to do with extracting a fee of some sort from others so that they might presumably learn something. It's quite different than the term 'cowboy-up' which means to stop sniveling, whining, and lacking of testicular fortitude, and start acting like a man. To you I say, cowboy-up.

That you totally deny the role of carbohydrates in the onset of laminitis and/or founder, bespeaks your failure to remain even remotely current on advances in research and understanding of the pathology.

if i had a dollar for Evey horse i have shot from owners believing that soaking there hoofs is beneficial thinking they are helping there horse I could have retired years a go
Bullsh-i-t. For even a very modest long term retirement you would need somewhere around $100,000.00 (plus the cost of those 100,000 bullets). I submit that had you indeed destroyed 100,000 horses, you would not only be in the Guiness Book of World Records, but you would by now have been in the docket at least a couple of times, brought there on various and sundry charges related to your actions. Now I know the former has not occurred, but I don't know about the latter.

Perhaps if you would present us with your name and other particulars we could find out for ourselves whether you are telling the truth or are just another in a long line of bombastic, mendacious blow hards that have the credibility of a Gromphadorhina chopardi with a correspondence course degree in veterinary medicine.

Rick

[reillyshoe]

This has the same ring as the BUA- researchers don't know what they are doing, only I do and I can't prove it. I mean I could prove it if I wanted to, but what is in it for me? I am as busy as can be anyway!

Tom,
you have as good a chance of getting Strasser or Lookout to admit the limitations of their ways as getting jack here to come clean....

[jack-mac]

disaccharide sucrose ,or common cane sugar consists of linked molecules of monosaccharides glucose & fructose likewise lactose is a molecule of glucose linked to one of galactose while amylose (starch) is a polymer of thousands of glucose molecules during digestion in the gastrointestinal tract all carbohydrates both simple & complex are eventually broken down into monomeric sugars such as glucose & fructose before they are absorbed into the bloodstream the monomeric sugars if eaten as such are taken into the circulation very quickly insulin is required to enable glucose to be metabolised & stored in muscles & the liver as glycogen or fatty acids fructose utilises ATP for its metabolism & is eventually converted into glycerol (glycerine) & glycerophosphate by a process that is slower than the metabolism of glucose if large amounts of pure fructose are eaten some of it will be converted in the liver to glucose there is no question that large in takes of sugar will cause kidney damage & there is no question that large in takes of carbohydrates will cause founder how ever there has to be one other fundamental factor for this to occur but as a dill i wouldn't no so its best to leave it up to the experts :rolleyes:

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

there is no question that large in takes of carbohydrates will cause founder how ever there has to be one other fundamental factor for this to occur but as a dill i wouldn't no so its best to leave it up to the experts :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: so you're wavering on the "its not carbohydrates" assertion then?

Put down the bottle and get your mother to lock the medicine cabinet ! You are clearly setting yourself up as the forum fool or troll.

[jack-mac]

to the forumJack, you been playing around in the medicine cabinet again? didn't your mamma warn you against that?

You're sounding just like those other stalwarts that have from time to time appeared on these forums with claims of knowledge that is unique only to them, and with the same hyperbole of "if you want to know what I know, then you gotta pony-up(sory about the pun). Now pony -up is an interesting term. It has to do with extracting a fee of some sort from others so that they might presumably learn something. It's quite different than the term 'cowboy-up' which means to stop sniveling, whining, and lacking of testicular fortitude, and start acting like a man. To you I say, cowboy-up.

That you totally deny the role of carbohydrates in the onset of laminitis and/or founder, bespeaks your failure to remain even remotely current on advances in research and understanding of the pathology.


Bullsh-i-t. For even a very modest long term retirement you would need somewhere around $100,000.00 (plus the cost of those 100,000 bullets). I submit that had you indeed destroyed 100,000 horses, you would not only be in the Guiness Book of World Records, but you would by now have been in the docket at least a couple of times, brought there on various and sundry charges related to your actions. Now I know the former has not occurred, but I don't know about the latter.

Perhaps if you would present us with your name and other particulars we could find out for ourselves whether you are telling the truth or are just another in a long line of bombastic, mendacious blow hards that have the credibility of a Gromphadorhina chopardi with a correspondence course degree in veterinary medicine.

RickG,day rick its good to see you haven't lost your touch mate i kinda like being the football it adds some stimuli to the forum some one has to play devils advocate every know & then its good for the soles of the boots that are kicking me round :)

[Rick Burten]

This has the same ring as the BUA- researchers
Now that Pat, is a perfect oxy*****!

Rick

[jack-mac]

:rolleyes: so you're wavering on the "its not carbohydrates" assertion then?

Put down the bottle and get your mother to lock the medicine cabinet ! You are clearly setting yourself up as the forum fool or troll.keep brown noseing there are lots of other things that will founder a horse my goal in all of this was to point that out so people don't get complacent & think that if they just limit there horses carb intake there horse will never founder but seen as your an expert on blood work you should all ready know what the other factor is get a life clown :)

[Forgewizard]

Oh good gravy Jack-Mac!

You don't really think that we think the ONLY cause for laiminitis is carbohydrates do you? I am pretty certain that most of the farriers here and several of the owners realize that laminitis is caused from a myriad of things. Carbohydrates in and of themselves are NOT the reason for laminitis. it is an OVERLOAD of carbs and the subsequent gut flora bloom then die off with the dead flora causing the blood toxicities that affect the basal membrane!

Many other things like hormone imbalances ( as seen in foaling laminitis),
allergic reactions, stressful situations, immune system disruptions, ingesting toxic plants hell a change in the wind! Laminitis gets it start from some sort of systemic insult.

You must look mighty important sitting high in your mirrored throne room! But you are soo all alone!

Regards,
Kim

[Jaye Perry]

...there are lots of other things that will founder a horse my goal in all of this was to point that out so people don't get complacent & think that if they just limit there horses carb intake there horse will never founder but seen as your an expert on blood work you should all ready know what the other factor is get a life clown :)
So, why didn't you say that in the beginning? Instead you went 'round and 'round;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9l19D2sIHI

[jack-mac]

Oh good gravy Jack-Mac!

You don't really think that we think the ONLY cause for laiminitis is carbohydrates do you? I am pretty certain that most of the farriers here and several of the owners realize that laminitis is caused from a myriad of things. Carbohydrates in and of themselves are NOT the reason for laminitis. it is an OVERLOAD of carbs and the subsequent gut flora bloom then die off with the dead flora causing the blood toxicities that affect the basal membrane!

Many other things like hormone imbalances ( as seen in foaling laminitis),
allergic reactions, stressful situations, immune system disruptions, ingesting toxic plants hell a change in the wind! Laminitis gets it start from some sort of systemic insult.

You must look mighty important sighting high in your mirrored throne room! But you are soo all alone!

Regards,
KimOK I give in the other factor is to much protein or the wrong type of proteins" happy" any excessive imbalance of carbs or protein will trigger founder fast or slowly it depends on how the horses immune system reacts when i get time have to work today i will go in to better detail & yous can all tell me how so wrong i am cant wait get your boots on :)

[Rick Burten]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9l19D2sIHI
Ya' know what? That lil feller plants his hind leg and crosses over better than a whole bunch of reiners out there. :D

Now was that a 1/4 point or a 1/2 point deduction for the over spin ? :)

Rick

[jack-mac]

So, why didn't you say that in the beginning? Instead you went 'round and 'round;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9l19D2sIHIcome on jaye had to get my moneys worth toms blood pressure hasn't been that high in years even with the ****** :D

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

there are lots of other things that will founder a horse my goal in all of this was to point that out so people don't get complacent & think that if they just limit there horses carb intake there horse will never founder...

Thank goodness you've given us a timely reminder that carbohydrate overload ain't the only cause of laminitis! Speaking of timely, the following is excerpted from an essay I wrote in 1997; since I'm admittedly lazy, as I recall, the essay was based on the notes I used for a lecture to the A&M student chapter of the AAEP in the mid-1980s:

Laminitis has many causes: among them, overwork, overfeeding, infections, organic toxins, shock and probably a change in the weather. All of the causes are unknown, but once laminitis occurs, the changes within the foot are fairly well-docµmented...

Most of this information can be found in the 1963 edition of the late O. R. Adams', Lameness in Horses. There've been some tremendous advancements in the diagnosis and treatment of laminitis and founder since then, so I figured this old stuff was common knowledge amongst working farriers everywhere. :)

[jack-mac]

Hay tom i gotta like ya mate you Texans dame sure get riled lol I'm only stating the obvious mate because as it may be obvious to some it my not be obvious to all, if everything was, you wouldn't have a need for a forum all charades a side. I apologise to you & Thomas i have been a tad rude as for proteins & founder it is a serious problem needing more attention then carbs almost all horse owners i have talked to are oblivious to it and are all guilty of over feeding protein & to top it off the wrong type.

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

jack-mac in gray

Hay tom i gotta like ya mate you Texans dame sure get riled lol I'm only stating the obvious mate because as it may be obvious to some it my not be obvious to all, if everything was, you wouldn't have a need for a forum all charades a side. I apologise to you & Thomas i have been a tad rude as for proteins & founder it is a serious problem needing more attention then carbs almost all horse owners i have talked to are oblivious to it and are all guilty of over feeding protein & to top it off the wrong type.

No worries. :)

[Thomas_Ride&Drive]

Now that Pat, is a perfect oxy*****!

Rick
I thought a paradox. :rolleyes:

[Red Amor]

Who areya JackOmac

just curious is all
you seem to realy enjoy ***** stering ;)

[jack-mac]

Who areya JackOmac

just curious is all
you seem to realy enjoy ***** stering ;)some people call it **** stirring i like to think of it as motivating there's nothing like a taunt to get some mental gymnastics happening or would you rather we all sat round holding hands & blowing hot air up one another's asses for me that doesn't cut it & i like to pick over peoples brains & there are some good ones here they just need a tad of motivation occasionly to display them

[Red Amor]

rrriight!!then ;)

[jack-mac]

I thought a paradox. :rolleyes:i would more describe it as a parallax & your views as paralogism