Young, Big, Filly bad manners

[bettyboop]

Okay now be gentle,
Hi there,
I ride Dressage and own a Warmblood 16.1, at two years old.She has begun to kick out with her back legs while she is in heat. Only twice in her life due to her age.But she is "one of those ****loods"
While I find it hard to hear but it's true.What can I do so she doesn't stay or turn out to be a real bag? I treasure my Farrier he is very good and would like to keep him safe and coming back.She is big, young, and hormal any suggestions??What she doing now is trying to kick out while I pickup her feet. She could kick really hard but hasn't as of yet it seems like a threat for now...I don't really want to find out it is not.She is kicking and behaving badly about her feet period.What can I do to get her okay with getting her feet worked on.She was fine before she started coming into heat.I had her trimmed every four wks or so regularly as she needed it. Never gave any problems to the farrier before.I do not want it to end up that she kicks someone.
Thank you.

[Ronald Aalders]

HOCK HOBBLES!

Oops, I shouldn't have said that right?



Ronald Aalders

[bettyboop]

Is that real advice or just a comment. would it help if I said I ride western and I own a 1/4 hos' gelding......?After beating him serveral times while I tied the bugger to a tree he jest won't quit kickin...Should I tie his tail up and use a chain twitch and tranq the hell outa him......

[huntseatndressage]

Seriously, talk to your vet about hormones. Then, talk to a trainer to help "untrain" if needed. Until it's resolved, have her tranqed while the farrier is there.

You don't want to lose a good farrier because of this...nor do you want anyone to get hurt.

[Rick Burten]

. would it help if I said I ride western and I own a 1/4 hos' gelding......?
Nope, ill mannered is ill mannered. Are you sure there is no physical problem? An old injun trick(this from the Fugawi Indian Nation) is to braid a couple of empty plastic milk jugs into the critter's tail just at or below hock height. Turn him/her out in a largish paddock or arena and let him/her have at it. After a while, nothing that touches the back legs bothers him/her anymore.
After beating him serveral times while I tied the bugger to a tree he jest won't quit kickin...Should I tie his tail up and use a chain twitch and tranq the hell outa him......
I'm a firm believer/proponent of chemical restraint and I prefer that Dormosedan be the restraint of choice(actually that's what I require when chemical restraint is necessary). And before I get back under a confirmed kicker, I require the owner to personally demonstrate that the horse is now safe to be worked on.

[bettyboop]

Thank you for some good advice.
I honestly want to correct this in a postive way for the horse, the farrier, and myself.She is good when she is not in heat she is lovely to be around. My Farrier found it hard to believe she was so bad the last time. I am there everytime she has ever been worked on etc. I am not one of those owners...that is never around. I work hard to to have well mannered horses.She just has me stumped.Plus it is not an all out kick she could have easily done that, it is warning shots.So I am not so silly to think that that behavior left unchecked will not lead to me getting a kick in the head.I work her alot myself and if I don't feel comfortable handling her feet I am not going to put someone else at risk.

[calshoer]

Two year old fillies are notorious for not handling their spring heat cycles very well....they usually get a little bit better with age. It may help to schedule her farrier visits between her heat cycles, if they are regular so you can time it.
Also talk to your vet about the remote posibility of her having an ovarian cyst ,just in case. Hormone treatments may help .
As to trainig her ,at this age it is impoertant to get a handle on the overall attitude toward humans anyway. Any horse who is kicking is probably also pushing, pulling, getting into your space etc. subtle "alpha"moves, her making little decisions instead of you that sort of go unoticed because they don't seem like big things.
These horses need a good leader, someone who will set the rules of 'alpha vs underdog'. Kicking horses usually behave as the the alpa over humans in their everyday interactions.
I really like the horsemanship mehods of the likes of the late Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, Chris Cox ,Clinton Anderson et al. These methods utilize a rope halter,and good training lead, lots of in hand groundwork to take control of thehorses feet, space and mind without running them to death or abusing them. Chris Cox has an excellent TV episode of re-training a mare who had kicked every farrier for seven years. I bought a CD of the episode and it was well worth the money.
If you take over her mind as a true leader ,in a manner she will understand at this point , it wil carry on to the rest of her life with you.Not just for the farrier, but for everything you do from then on. . Sometimes this training takes only a few minutes, or the farrier can do it if you pay him for his time. The Chris Cox CD is available at his website. Patty

[T.L. Buck]

Though I agree with everyones comments I think I have done pert near every rough or rude horse there was when I first started in Colorado and in New Mexico. :rolleyes: All kidding aside, I have had great luck by asking for permission and not trying to beat them into submission. Horses like kids learn from the release of negative pressure. In 15 years of this trade I have never used a single drug to finish a horse and have never walked away from one not done. I was fortunate to have done Mustangs from the wild horse program in Canon City, Colorado as well as lawn ornaments in the eastern Colorado plains. The most effective way that I have found is the use of a lip chain and patience. Some people think it may be harsh but that is only if it is abused or done incorrectly. Every time the horse attempts to pull or kick, slight pressure to the chain will get their attention. It usually doesn't take much for them to understand that you are not hurting them or a bother to them if they stand quiet. I will also use a grass rope to pick up the hind feet to take me out of the equation. It is safer to let them get used to have something around their feet and realize that it is not something that is going to hurt them. Once you gain that trust you will have it forever. Horses are some very smart animals but they are also very simple minded. I do not believe that hitting a horse or kicking a horse is the answer to a training issue. They can read you by the simple touch if you are not focused or if you are frustated. I am not a trainer and I let all my clients know this and understand this. That being said, I will give that horse the benefit of doubt and a few minutes of my time to gain a client. Most of those horses that the "other" farrier couldn't do are some of my best clients and best behaved horses. There has been few I have not returned too, but they did get done the first time. Ok I have ranted enough and probably said too much.
~ Buck

[calshoer]

I was fortunate to have done Mustangs from the wild horse program in Canon City, Colorado Buck, I thought the Canon City mustang program was using a squeeze table to trim those mustangs. . Is that a more recent development ? And BTW your asolutely right about asking the horse for his foot rather than demanding it . Patty

[Phil Armitage]

Bettyboop, she could be giveing you a warning kick because she is in pain or because she is testing and being disrespectfull. You need to figure this out before you proceed.

[T.L. Buck]

Buck, I thought the Canon City mustang program was using a squeeze table to trim those mustangs. . Is that a more recent development ? And BTW your asolutely right about asking the horse for his foot rather than demanding it . Patty


Patty you are right. I have done atleast a hundred fresh out of the program, not while still in the state hands. I should have been more clear. Even though they have been done on a squeeze table they still have no clue what picking their feet up and standing for a farrier is all about. They are a very interesting breed of horse and a great learning experience.
~ Buck

[bettyboop]

Well some more good advice thank you again.
Here is what I did with her last night.I taped a bag to the end of a dressage whip and got her to stand quietly while I rubbed her with the bag all over. She seems to have become very scared of anything around her feet. So it is back to basics with her.Also her ration of food has been upped to because of a major growth spurt.So excess energy, coming into heat for the first few times etc are all factors. She is turned out in a big pasture to run off sme energy as well she is not stalled.I also free lunge her in the arena before I try to work her feet.I will keep plugging away and let you know how she does thank you very much for your advice. I don't want to just get her feet done while she is like this, a confrontation I am certain will make this horse a whole lot worse.I know of many ways to make her take it but that never leads to a horse that is calm and sane for the next farrier visit.

[Rick Burten]

Sounds like you are the kind of owner a farrier wants to have in his/her practice.

[bettyboop]

well I had a mini break through yesterday.I was able to rub her all over with the bag and I was able to pick up her front feet nicely through the fence.So of course I got brave at this point and got into the paddock with her.She was really good with the left front but not the right front she figured pawing as in order.I was getting kind of annoyed with the whole thing and it was time to end the session but I wanted to end it on a good note.I would wait for her too have her foot quiet while I held it.Then she put it down and a friend pulled into the yard. she walked over and asked what I was working on.I told her I was trying to get the filly polite about her feet. etc she asked what I were doing the process I said well I want to give me her foot when I say foot..... then she started laughing and said look at your horse..The little bugger was holding up her hoof right side front polite as can be...Horses =) I can't believe the sudden change She was kicking out up over the fence the day before.So I am hoping it is just the heat cycle and there are ways to help her with that.Whew! I have rebooked to farrier to come out in two weeks from now buy then she should be behaving like she used to. :p