Very Worried Owner

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Everyone,

I need some help... I have a nine year old Pinto that I got back in Feb of this year..He was a little sore than so I got my farrier out to see him right away and all he did was trim him and say he had the best feet he has seen in a long time.. I didn't question him on it.. My horse after a couple of weeks come up sore again... I got the farrier back out again and he took a look at him and said there is nothing wrong with his feet.. Anyway he was still sore so I got someone new to take a look at him and she said right away that his toes are to long and he has alot of sole pressure and she fixed it.. Well two weeks later he come up sore again.. I talked to her on what to do about this and she said she will take a look at him... That same day the vet came for shots and teeth, I got him to look at my boy and he got the testers out and said for one he is a 1/4 of an inch lower on the right side to the left he has to much sole on both and his right has a contracted heel... He than told me to get shoes on him and a wedge to take pressure off and to balance him and he will be fine... I told my new Farrier what the vet and said and she doesn't think he needs a wedge and asked me if the vet wants a wedge on both feet.. I told her I didn't know.. Anyway what I would like to know as I'm not going to say I know anything about how to fix feet is when you put a wedge for balance do you need to put another one on the other side... Also how is she going to fix him with his sole pressure problem..

Thank you so much for everyones time.. :eek:

[Jeanie Connors]

Hmm. I find it hard to believe your vet says your horse has "too much sole". Paring away healthy sole is a big mistake. If there's old, flaky or compacted sole there, then that material can come off, but that seems to be a fairly uncommon occurrance.

The hoof imbalance *could* be what's causing most of your horse's soreness, but there could be other factors involved. What is his diet? What kind of environment does he live in? Can you take some pictures of his feet, side and sole views, and his whole body, and put them up here?

I don't shoe horses, but I trim them, and from what your vet said, I would examine the hoof and find out what's causing the imbalances *first*, see if they can be corrected through a good trim, and then go from there. I would not recommend wedging up an imbalanced hoof to fix it :eek: .

[George Geist]

Hi Shydobe,
Sounds as if your horse gets better with trimming and a little sore with hoof growth?

This happens from time to time for a myriad of reasons. In this case I really dont think shoeing will help much if this is whats happening as it is probably a soft tissue problem. I have seen this before in horses with pulled check ligaments and so forth.

If you do decide to shoe him make sure you keep him on a pretty short schedule like maybe no more than 4 weeks. Try not to let the feet get too long.

As for your vets recommendations, well....maybe think about a second opinion.

Hope you do well
George

[cynthia-jay]

Sounds like you have a difference of opinions..........

One thing is you have is a sore horse.............

The difference in the height may well be high/ low syndrome to where one hoof is a bit steeper and the other a bit lower...therefore the wedge pads

To much sole can be taken care of but what comes to mind is the horse may have been trimmed to short or is retaining false sole amid a balance problem in which the Vet noticed

At times only one hoof is wedged to bring it into balance with the other

If I were you I would try another Farrier...It sounds as if your Vet has noticed some improper trimming tecs..or a lack of balance which is what a qualified Farrier does at trimming/shoeing

Posting photos on this sight will bring you even more responses

good luck to you
as always

Jay

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Everyone,

Thank You for your help.. To give everyone an update on my boy.. Monday morning I got to the barn to do my work and to look at him because the night before I got an email that his left front was a little puffy.. Well I got to the back and he looked like a blow fish.. We called the vet in and found out that his left hind was trying to form an absuss but it never formed and he has a major infection in his body now.. Plus has Founder in his front feet,vet said due to stress.. So we are pumping in the meds right now.. As for a new Farrier she is new and the first time she did him she did notice things that had not been right and started to fix them.. He is on a four week trim routine both my boys are.. Anyway the Farrier was out last night because they had to be done.. As for my sick guy she only trimmed the fronts and told me it would not be a good idea to put shoes on him right now because of everything and left the hind alone until he is better.. She has never felt he needed shoes or a wedge, she said to me again last night give her a chance to fix him it takes time..

I will try to take pictures of his feet and post them.. I really need help on this.. He is to good of a horse to just give up..

Once Again Thank You..

[Rick Burten]

his left front was a little puffy..
Where? Pastern? fetlock? higher?
Well I got to the back and he looked like a blow fish..
I take this to mean his legs were quite swollen? Again, where?
We called the vet in and found out that his left hind was trying to form an absuss but it never formed and he has a major infection in his body now..
How was this diagnosis made? IOW, how did the vet determine that there was no abacess but one had tried to form and that led to a systemic infection?
Plus has Founder in his front feet,vet said due to stress.
Again, how was this determination arrived at? Were radiographs taken? At the time the diagnosis was made, were any steps taken to support the bony column(p3 in particular)?
So we are pumping in the meds right now..
Which ones?
As for my sick guy she only trimmed the fronts and told me it would not be a good idea to put shoes on him right now because of everything and left the hind alone until he is better.. She has never felt he needed shoes or a wedge, she said to me again last night give her a chance to fix him it takes time..
How does she plan to deal with the founder issue?

[Shydobe_1]

Ok I see I have some questions to answer.. He was swollen on the Sunday in the pastern area. The Monday morning he was swollen past his knees in front and past the hock in the hind end, plus his body was swollen.. The vet did a pressure test on all four feet and the one that he had alot of pain on he dug a whole and got some blood and he noticed things not right.. As for why the farrier thinks it's founder in his front is as she was trimming him she noticed that he was very soft at the toes and some blood ... As for what meds he is on he is getting 60 cc of Pen and he got a cordizone shot and to many to name as I have not had alot of sleep in the past three days.. Sorry.. As for the farrier she did not say what she was going to do about the founder if that is what it is.. I can say she didn't put the shoes and wedge on him because she had said it would be to hard on him.. I still have not had time to take pictures sorry but I will get them done... I hope this is a little better and maybe someone can hit the nail on the head on what is going on with my boys feet..

Once again I thank everyone for the help..

[Jeanie Connors]

Diagnosis aside, if it was an abcess, and it did go systemic, that alone could cause the founder issues. Supportive treatment for his infection and possible founder will hopefully help him past this hurdle. In the meantime, try examining why he abcessed in the first place, examine his diet and environment, talk to your vet and your farrier and ask what they feel might have gone wrong, and how it can be prevented in the future. I hope this helps.

[Phil Armitage]

Is it possible your horse's problem was laminitis from the start? It is Spring and laminitis is very common this time of year from over eating and I believe some horses have adverse reactions to vaccines, another thing horses get this time of year. Is your horse turned out in grass? Was he vaccinated recently. Are there any other changes in his life? Abcessing can occur with laminitis, due to damage tissue. Just more food for thought.

There could be many other things going on that requires more diagnosis includeing radiographs to really determine the cause.

I do not see anything wrong with your first farrier being conservative on the trim, better to have more foot than to trim too short, especially if the horse is foundering.

Sounds like everyone is quessing and really does not know why your horse is sore.

[calshoer]

I certainly hope your veterinarian has done complete blood work to determine what kind if any total body infection is going on..because when all the legs swell there are several ominous possibilities, like equine Erlichia (a tick borne virus) or other bad "bug". As well, from what I have ben told over hte years by most veterinarians, cortizone is uaually contraindicated for laminitis/founder. AND the hooves should have some kind of taped on emergency support..."lily"pads, blue styrofoam, high density foam, full rolls of gauze taped under the frogs, SOMETHING.
AND baseline Xrays should have been taken immediately,to compare with later ones to see if the bone is actually moving inside the foot and how much .
If the veterinarian suspects founder and did not immediately apply some type of protection and support to the feet, he/she is remiss in their job in my opinion. At the very least the horse should be standing in deep loose sand for sole and frog support.

Patty

[Gary_Miller]

Being a paint horse it could be Photosensitization.

My mare had this last year and all her legs with white sockings swelled up the size of her hoof. Horse was three legged lame due to the pain. There was also leakage of serum arount the coronary band. Antabiotics and soaking with cold water to reduce swelling and releve the pain.

Gary

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Everyone,

You all have been so great.. My horse is doing alot better still not100%, but I'm sure it's going to be a long road back.. Now his diet is Beet Pulp apples and carrots with Kelp and Recovery EQ in the morning and Beet Pulp and apples and carrots at dinner with all the hay he can eat because we don't have any grass in the paddocks.. It has been really dry so the ground is rock hard and I have found that he does have a hard time walking on it when it is like that.. He was going to have shoes put on just because of that but we hit this hump. As for vaccines yes he got them two weeks ago, with west nile being new to him. He is now in a loose sand paddock and alone for the time being until he is better.. The vet does not want him in a stall.. There is another Farrier coming to the barn and I was thinking of asking him to take a look.. I will be talking to the vet today he wants a report and if the swelling is not 100% gone he will be doing more tests..

Once Again Thank You.. ;)

[Phil Armitage]

Interesting diet, why beat pulp, apples and carrotts. Alot of carbs and sugar in apples and carrotts, not what I would feed a horse I suspect has laminitis. Another interesting observation is the West Nile two weeks ago and that it is his first one. West Nile vaccine concerns me, seen horses have adverse reactions to this vaccine, from laminitis to being very sore and sick. I have heard many Vets claim that this is not possible over the years, however seen too many situations where horses have had problems after haveing the vaccine.

[Phil Armitage]

Being a paint horse it could be Photosensitization.

My mare had this last year and all her legs with white sockings swelled up the size of her hoof. Horse was three legged lame due to the pain. There was also leakage of serum arount the coronary band. Antabiotics and soaking with cold water to reduce swelling and releve the pain.

Gary

Hey Gary, I have a 5 year old paint horses, white socks on all four. His hind feet swelled up and he had signes of laminitis in the front last summer. Could this be from photosensitization? His nose and white on his face also burns easy, I put sun screen on him everyday except for the legs. Any suggestions, good info. Thanks.

[Gary_Miller]

Hey Gary, I have a 5 year old paint horses, white socks on all four. His hind feet swelled up and he had signes of laminitis in the front last summer. Could this be from photosensitization? His nose and white on his face also burns easy, I put sun screen on him everyday except for the legs. Any suggestions, good info. Thanks.
Phil sounds like it could be Photosensization. I have a really good book called "How to be your own Veterinarian (sometimes)" by Ruth B. James, DVM.
In her book she lists the two main causes to be 1) The ingestion of certian poisonous plants which contain sensitizing substances or intake of certain chemicals which have the same effect; and 2) photosensitization due to intake of substances which damage the liver and prevent the elimination of a liver byproduct called phylloerythrin. This byproduct builds up in the bloodstream, causing the horse to become sensitive to light.

Plants wich have been said at times to cause photosensatization include alfalfa, red clover (Trifolium pratense), burr clover (Medocago denticalata), and alsike or Swedish clover (Trifolium hybridum)

In my horses case my best guess was Red Clover as part of my pasture has some red clover. Besides keeping her off the clover my vet has me put sunscreen on her nose and white face in order to screen out the sunlight.

This year so fare no problems.

Gary

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Again,

You say that you would not feed beet pulp, apples and carrots because of the carbs and sugar what would you feed? I only feed a little of it so that he and my other horse who is a Belgian get the kelp and Recovery EQ..

As of this morning my Pinto the one that is in question was doing very well he is becoming more and more like himself.. Now I just need to lick this foot problem and give him more time to be 100% ok.

As for him getting the west nile for the first time is because the owner that had him before didn't give the shot.. I did because he is outside 24/7 and I live in an area that is pretty wet.. I wanted to be safe not sorry..

Now as for his feet he is walking and he did trot this morning to get his breakfast and he looked good. Than after I was done feeding all the horses it was now time to sock his foot, I got him out of his paddock on to hard ground and he had a very hard time walking..
I am not going to give up and every little bit of help will do me and him a world of good..

I can't keep saying Thank You enough for all of you that make me think about what went wrong and what I might still be doing wrong to get this horse in good health again.. :confused:

[Phil Armitage]

Apples and carrots are high in sugar. Beatpulp is a good filler/roughage like hay. I recommend a low carb feed. There are feed companys that make low carb feed that contain all the nutriants a horse needs. The feed I use is Poulin Feed 10/8 endure. It contains oats, pellets, beat pulp, crimped corn and a small amount of molasses for flavor. It is 10% protien and 8% fat. A horses primary diet should be mature grass or hay and the feed should be a supplement to there diet. Horses turned out on plush fields really do not need hay and feed, however the amount cannot be manage and nutrition or lack of it is unknown. I prefer to manage my horses diet by feeding hay and feed. Over eating plush grass is a common cause of laminitis. Poor nutrition is another cause of feet problems.

Over the years I have seen horses moved from one barn to another and the feet change from good to bad or from bad to good and attribute this to diet and enviroment.

Vaccines can cause problems contrary to what some Vets believe. It is interesting to me how some horses never have a problem until they get there spring shots. I have seen problems from horses becomeing very ill, very sore, swelling, sore feet. Some have had severe case of laminits to the point of causeing rotation. I figure if a vaccine causes a horse to founder then skip the shot, the idea is to prevent them from becomeing very ill, founder can be fatal.

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Phil,
You wrote:Vaccines can cause problems contrary to what some Vets believe. It is interesting to me how some horses never have a problem until they get there spring shots. I have seen problems from horses becomeing very ill, very sore, swelling, sore feet. Some have had severe case of laminits to the point of causeing rotation. I figure if a vaccine causes a horse to founder then skip the shot, the idea is to prevent them from becomeing very ill, founder can be fatal.
Now if all this stuff was from his new shots (west nile) would something not have gone wrong in the first 24 to 48 hours??

[Phil Armitage]

I do not know, you make a good point. Would make sense, but all horses are different. I am not trying to say what is wrong, just trying to give you more things to consider and rule out. Sometimes finding the cause and a solution requires ruleing out other possiblities, but you have to figure out what all the possiblities are first. Just adding what experience I have along with what others have shared.

[calshoer]

In my experience if a recovering foundered horse is going to "crash" after vaccines it is within 48 hours. Usually the ones who do not tolerate the vacines well have been the types with who have had a history of high blood cortisol levels.
Phil, The feed I use is Poulin Feed 10/8 endure. It contains oats, pellets, beat pulp, crimped corn and a small amount of molasses for flavor. It is 10% protien and 8% fat. Phil that feed seems like it would be far too high in carbohydrate with oats, corn and molassis.
Do they list the NSC (non structural carbohydrate) content? Most high NSC feeds don't put that number on the label. Only the lower carb ones do.
Patty

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Phil,
I understand what you are saying, that I need to find out why he went systemic.. Now when the vet came out his feet had been fine it was just that left hind that had or has that abscess that he says went systemic.. He has never had founder before. I spoke to the lady I got him from and he has always been healthy.. My next question is how long does it take for an abscess to go systemic? Why does it go systemic?Also I guess I should point out that it was the farrier that had said his front feet left founder and right thinking about it was her words..This was all said the day after the vet came..Now someone had told me that with all of the drug he got would make his front feet look like founder..One of the drugs was Dex something sorry I forgot to write it down..

Ok as for last night he is still looking much better, but his feet are still in question.. On his left hind after I cleaned it and socked it in epsom salts I put some magic cushion on it and covered it up with a pad and vet tape with a sock and duck tape.. I want to keep it clean..

Back to this abscess with it gone systemic will it still come out or with all the drugs he is getting go away..

Thanks again..

[Phil Armitage]

In my experience if a recovering foundered horse is going to "crash" after vaccines it is within 48 hours. Usually the ones who do not tolerate the vacines well have been the types with who have had a history of high blood cortisol levels.
Phil, Phil that feed seems like it would be far too high in carbohydrate with oats, corn and molassis.
Do they list the NSC (non structural carbohydrate) content? Most high NSC feeds don't put that number on the label. Only the lower carb ones do.
Patty

The feed I use is for performance, however it is still considered low in sugar and higher in fat. Primarly designed as an edurance feed. I have a 7 YO high strung morgan mare on it, worked everyday keeps her weight where it belongs without makeing her crazy, two minis on it and they look great, then my 5 YO paint and 28 year old arab. The thing I like the most about this feed is gaurenteed analysis, I know what my horses are getting. The feed is also very digestable.

They do have a feed specificly made for cushings, laminitis, Insulin resistance.

The molasis in the grain is very low, it is not sticky to hold it, actually it is slightly dry. It is lightly coated for flavor.

Here is the link to there site for more info. http://www.poulingrain.com/pages/906/Equine.htm?PHPSESSID=eb48ed8d0b2d225435e14a0131a86 fd1

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Phil,
I understand what you are saying, that I need to find out why he went systemic.. Now when the vet came out his feet had been fine it was just that left hind that had or has that abscess that he says went systemic.. He has never had founder before. I spoke to the lady I got him from and he has always been healthy.. My next question is how long does it take for an abscess to go systemic? Why does it go systemic?Also I guess I should point out that it was the farrier that had said his front feet left founder and right thinking about it was her words..This was all said the day after the vet came..Now someone had told me that with all of the drug he got would make his front feet look like founder..One of the drugs was Dex something sorry I forgot to write it down..

Ok as for last night he is still looking much better, but his feet are still in question.. On his left hind after I cleaned it and socked it in epsom salts I put some magic cushion on it and covered it up with a pad and vet tape with a sock and duck tape.. I want to keep it clean..

Back to this abscess with it gone systemic will it still come out or with all the drugs he is getting go away..

Thanks again..

My thinking is, if he is systemic from and abcess then his temp should be up, not acting like himself and loss of appetite. I am not sure if and abcess can trigger a systemic condition in the body that would trigger laminitis, however I would suspect before it got that severe other signes would have appeard first such as extreme lameness in the foot that abcessed three legged lame.

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I better update on what is going on with my boy.. Well he's done all his meds and he looks good.. He is still alone and I'm watching what he eats.. He is moving around in his paddock very well, and seems to be very happy... I have a farrier coming out on Tuesday afternoon to see him.. He is not going to do anything to him right away, but he wants to see what his feet look like right now.. I told him all the trouble I've been having and he says it sounds more like navicular starting.. He has also asked me to give him a chance to fix this and it will take some time with trimming but he will tell me everything he is doing and if he feels that he needs shoes or pads he will say so.. He has also told me that if it was founder it would be to early to tell unless he has a very soft sole and the sole dropped, but he didn't want to pin point anything until he saw him. He also asked me who the vet was that saw him about the systemic infection, to give him an idea if he was over druged and that set off the founder if that is in fact the problem.. Anyway I told him and he is not worried about this vet he said he is very good and does not over drug the horses.. I will let everyone know what he says on Tuesday.. I have my fingures crossed that this is going to be a happy ending..

For the 100th time thank you all for your help I will pass some of the information on to him and see what he says.. Once Again Thank You :D

[Shydobe_1]

Hi Everyone,

Good news, yesterday I had a farrier out that took the time to look and watch my horse move around.. This is what he told me. First his feet had been trimmed to short for the size of him and he was not level. Second he was showing no signs of Founder or Navicular. He had some heat in his feet but he said that could be from all the meds he just got done taking and this is the tail end of everything.So what he as done is made him level and trimmed his hind feet because they had not been done. He said we will let the feet grow out and see how he does with that. He also took the time to show me what I needed to watch to make sure he did not founder on the sole.. Oh yeah he had way to much sole on his toe so he also took that away. After all was said and done he said that if there is no change in a couple of days or the sole dropped to call him right away and he will come back out and put shoes on him with a pad and some goop.. Sorry I once again can't remember what it's called.. If things get better than on July 21 he will look at things again and if he needs shoes he'll put them than and if not we will go another six weeks without.. The reson he did not do it right away was because of the heat in his feet and he is sore from all the needles that got put in him and he didn't think it was right to hammer away on his feet..

I know want to take the time to thank all of you for your help it's been great and if I need help again I know I coming back here..

Thanks, Cyndy

[mwmyersdvm]

You have been extremely lucky thus far with the minimal handling of a potentially fatal syndrome. You need to learn about diet, you need to find out if your horse has metabolic issues and you seriously need and have been needing correctly taken radiogrpahs of this horse before any further hoof work is done. You may have some problems down the road that won't be very pleasant for you or your horse if you don't take a more proactive role in this scenario.
Low sugar does not necessarily equate to low NSC. I had this discussion with the PennFields veterinarian on their performance feed. It is "low sugar" but extremely high in NSC for high performance horses. High performance feed is not designed for metabolic laminitis cases.

[Shydobe_1]

Hi mwmyersdvm,

Can you explain a little better what you are saying.. What would you feed a horse that had a systemic infection? How would you go about dealing with all of this.. The only reason he was getting beet pulp an apple and a carrot was to make sure he got his kelp and recovery eq.. It wasn't even alot.. All the heat in his feet are gone I've taken him off of the recovery eq.. The vet feels he doesn't need it but the kelp is good since he does not get any grass.. He is sound in his paddock but as soon as he comes on the very hard ground he is sore.. He has had xrays done and they are fine.. The vet is doing a great deal to help him and the farrier is doing what the vet is saying to do... I only want what's best for him.. So all the help I can get the better off he will be and I will be.. I do understand I have alot to learn but I will not learn if I don't ask and if people do not point things out..
Thank you for your post and I will get more answers from the vet..