NBS/EDSS critiques

[RWBarrette]

I’m going to throw this out there for comments, and hopefully some suggestions. These feet are from a 12yo ****-blood (Thorcheron) cross. He is the poster child for why the barefoot movement will never claim all horses. He has not been the easiest horse to keep sound, and he has a very narrow margin of error. To make a long story short, I had him radiographed by a vet specializing in lameness last year to try to figure out why he is so sensitive, but the vet said he looked fine. At the time I was shoeing him w/ NBS shoes, and he was doing better, but still wasn’t quite right. I wasn’t that familiar w/ the EDSS system when I started using the shoes, I originally chose them because of the wide web, w/ the rolled breakover and wide toe. The vet suggested that I add the NBS pads and the impression material. Since I’ve switched over to these shoes and pads he has been sound, and I’ve not had any lameness issues since I’ve changed him.
In the past 6 months I switched from the EDSS shoes to St Croix Xtra EZ clipped shoes because he always slides forward on the shoe. To try to compensate, I roll the toes ½ way through the webbing, and all the way around the shoe perimeter to the 4th nail hole to ease breakover on jumping turns (I should probably just put him in eventers, but I prefer a shoe that doesn’t ‘grab’ so much as a rim-type shoe). What I’m starting to notice though is that there is a distortion in the right front hoof. I assume I’m not getting the toe far enough under him by rolling it, but I was surprised because I never saw this when previously shoeing him w/o the NBS pad in flat shoes, and he is relatively upright. So, I would welcome critiques from anybody more familiar with the NBS/EDSS style of shoeing, as to any changes I should make to get the best use out of the system. I’ve been really happy with the results as far as his soundness, now I just want to make sure I’m using it properly.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture150.jpg
This is the Rolled Toe Shoe+ NBS pad that he’s getting on his fronts.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture148.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture171.jpg
Right front, Before: showing the dishing of the toe and After (He’d pulled the shoe that day in the before…sorry I was a bit tilted for the shot)

[RWBarrette]

More shots....

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture159.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture168.jpg
Left front before and after
I’m sorry I didn’t take a shot to show the pastern angles, you can get an idea from the rads, and if I remember I’ll take some later.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/BarretteRockyRFP3LM10-4-05.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/BarretteRockyLFP3LM10-4-05.jpg
These were the rads taken in early October. At the time, an old mentor of mine had pushed me to try banana shoeing on him. I tried to get the same effect with an NBS shoe modified with a belly and rolled with an angle grinder. (I don’t think I did the horse any favors)
(Note: if this horse seems like he may be a guinea pig, it’s because 1. he has been an interesting model to work with, and 2. I own and ride him. Thus I’ve had a particularly vested interest in getting him going well.

Thanks
-Roger

[Derin Foor]

Hi Roger,

I would be inclined to raise the angle a few degrees with a wedge pad and definitely bring his breakover back further so it sits right under the distal border of P3........... I think you would see the dish in the hoofwall disappear over time and he would be a bit more comfortable

You do nice work........good coverage and support

Derin

[Phil Armitage]

My quess is you are successfully getting P3 back into posistion (proper angle). This might be causeing the dishing in the hoof, maybe after a year the new growth will be straighter as it grows out at P3's new angle. Just a thought.

Have you attended any of Gene's hands on clinics?

Nice work.

[Jaye Perry]

I’m going to throw this out there for comments, and hopefully some suggestions. These feet are from a 12yo ****-blood (Thorcheron) cross. ..........vet suggested that I add the NBS pads and the impression material. Since I’ve switched over to these shoes and pads he has been sound, and I’ve not had any lameness issues since I’ve changed him.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture148.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/rbarrett74/Picture171.jpg


The job looks good.

The reason the impression material did the trick was the convuluted toe quarters. One will see these types of quarters in numerous warnbloods. If ya notice all four quarters have the same vertical lines.
When the foot is loaded there is a pinching effect at proximal potions of the coffin joints due to the "dip" in the quarters. By placing the impression material under the pad, one has decreased dorsiflexion of the coffin joint under load. Also , the support has diminished the "pinching" at the proximal portions of the coffin joints. Usually takes 4-5 shoeing to re-shape and regain proper function of coronary band and quarters

The x-rays provided show some elliptical shaping of the chondral bone on P2. Wedging may or may not compromise the proximal portion of the coffin joint, the is due to the joint spacings between the extensor process of P3 and the distal and proximal portions of P2. This horse had compromised heels at one time or another in his life.

[RWBarrette]

(Derin) I would be inclined to raise the angle a few degrees with a wedge pad and definitely bring his breakover back further so it sits right under the distal border of P3........... I think you would see the dish in the hoofwall disappear over time and he would be a bit more comfortable
I figured that the dish was probably due to the position of the toe, and the toe roll I'm putting in isn't as dramatic as the NBS roll. It was just odd because I'd not seen that previously before using the impression matl. As far as his angles, I have not been sure what to do about his heels. I was partially inclined to lower them based on what I've read about the NBS style of shoeing, but the horse is pretty upright, so I've been a bit conflicted
(Phil) My quess is you are successfully getting P3 back into posistion (proper angle). This might be causeing the dishing in the hoof,
That was one of my concerns... I figured if I had P3 in proper position, I shouldn't see dishing of the hoof, and yet there it was.
(Phil) maybe after a year the new growth will be straighter as it grows out at P3's new angle. Just a thought.
I hope so, I've just been concerned that something I'm doing in the short term is incorrect with regards to the angle and causing the distortion.
Regarding any of Gene's clinics, I have not had a chance to go to any of them, although I'd like to. I am on the mailing list now, and have only seen one recently in New York (I think), but I had to be in Boston that weekend, so I coulndn't do it anyway.
(Jaye) When the foot is loaded there is a pinching effect at proximal potions of the coffin joints due to the "dip" in the quarters. By placing the impression material under the pad, one has decreased dorsiflexion of the coffin joint under load. Also , the support has diminished the "pinching" at the proximal portions of the coffin joints. Usually takes 4-5 shoeing to re-shape and regain proper function of coronary band and quarters
At first I thought that the pad was making the difference, but I've had him in pads before, with not nearly the success. The impression material does seem to be key for this horse. This is a good explanation...I was trying to work out in my head why it worked when other things have not.
(Jaye)The x-rays provided show some elliptical shaping of the chondral bone on P2. Wedging may or may not compromise the proximal portion of the coffin joint, the is due to the joint spacings between the extensor process of P3 and the distal and proximal portions of P2. This horse had compromised heels at one time or another in his life.
I hadn't picked up on the shape of the chondral process. That's a good observation. The horse had surgery for OCD when he was young. Do you think that the condition that allows for OCD lesions to form could have further reaching effects as far as chondral ossification during development, or is this more likely a response to shoeing or an injury? Am I missing the forest for the trees here? Do you think this is something I should work on trying to focus on this more agressively in the long term, or do you feel that this style of shoeing is sufficient to address this?

-Roger

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Roger,

Just thought I'd butt in real quick. From your post I gathered the shoe in the rad is a banana shoe?

If so you missed out on the self adjusting palmar angle part of the banana. For it to have any effect the shoe should allow the foot to rock forward and backward at the horse's discretion. The shoe in the rad at best allows some rocking back, but no rocking forward at all. This is not what you'd be looking for in a banana shoe.

I added a rad that hopefully clarifies things. (See the roll here?)


Ronald Aalders

[RWBarrette]

Thanks Ron,
I appreciate the rad to compare to my horse. Gives me a better point of reference to look at.
This was my first attempt at a banana by myself, and it was really none too good (my own horses are often subject to my learning curve). My prior mentor showed me on two occasions how he does it, and it is the only way that he shoes now. I've been wanting to find time to run w/ him again so I can spend more time learning how to use it properly. Until then I've put a moratorium on the technique until I have a better understanding of the concept lest I do more damage than good. I notice alot of owners are uneasy about this method, and I don't want to be responsible for screwing it up and having the owner blame the technique (or having the horse pay for my ignorance).
For the banana I was taught to trim forward from the widest part, and back from the widest point, but I was a bit timid about it, and positioned the belly behind the widest point in an attempt to get him to roll forward. In the end I think I set him up to do what I was trying to avoid. I do think it is a great method, I just need to learn to do it properly.

-Roger

[Derin Foor]

Roger,

Hopefully Ron will correct me if I'm wrong here, but when I use the banana shoe, I aim to have the 'rocker' under the center of articulation of P3. I think you have better results that way........

I was taught this way and it's amazingly accurate.......put your thumb on the coronary band, and with your middle finger find the spot where a straight line would drop through the foot (somewhere in the middle of the frog)..... you will be close to the point of articulation on most feet..... does that make sense?

alternately, using regular shoes and wedges, you can get the palmar angle to near zero and re-align the bony column with whatever wedges it calls for.... don't be surprised if it's not the same on both sides, and I suspect it won't be based on the rads

Derin

[calshoer]

I think the title of the post is a bit incorrect, since this is not NB shoeing nor is it EDSS.
It is just a decent shoeing going the right direction which happens to have a NB pad, but could use a little more some tune up if you want to call it NB.
If this is striviong to be a NB shoeing with other than NB shoes, I would recommend that:
1) the breakover be further back (about the first nail or not more than 1/4" ahead of it )
2)the rest of the flare removed from the distal end of the toe ,
3)a bit more heel probably taken off to lengthen the base of the foot ,
4)and then perhaps a wedge pad used, IF the horse needed one to land heel first after the foot was trimmed accurately to NB protocols.

Its a decent shoeing for sure, but far off the NB mark if that's what you were really striving for.
In order to truly recreate the NB breakover pattern in the toe and place it correctly on the foot for NB protocols, you need to re-forge the toe of the shoe some to broaden it more before you forge the roll in the toe. On keg shoes other than NB used for NB application, you will either have to punch more nail holes in the branches or just use the back 3 holes after you reshape the toe.
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

I figured that the dish was probably due to the position of the toe, ....... I was partially inclined to lower them based on what I've read about the NBS style of shoeing, but the horse is pretty upright, so I've been a bit conflicted
Pull the heels back when needed, if not leave 'em alone. Shoe the horse and what it's telling ya at the time. It ain't broke now so don't fix it! Adjust shoeing protocol month to month.


That was one of my concerns... I figured if I had P3 in proper position, I shouldn't see dishing of the hoof, and yet there it was.
Foot and leg conformations cannot be overcome in certain situations. Previous maladies, way before you obtained the horse, can cause deformities and you got what ya got.




.......
At first I thought that the pad was making the difference, but I've had him in pads before, with not nearly the success. The impression material does seem to be key for this horse. This is a good explanation...I was trying to work out in my head why it worked when other things have not.

Look at Dr. Rooney's website here on HS.com. Transverse planes within the foot, it may give ya some insight.

I hadn't picked up on the shape of the chondral process. That's a good observation. The horse had surgery for OCD when he was young. Do you think that the condition that allows for OCD lesions to form could have further reaching effects as far as chondral ossification during development, or is this more likely a response to shoeing or an injury?
The condition for OCD development may have been genectic or environmental, tat's no concern at 12 years of age. The concern is keeping the horse sound now. Invasion for removal of lesions within the foot "Always" compromises future develop and integrity of the foot as a whole. We are left to sweep up the mess(es).

Elliptical chondrals will have flexural and extension effects on movements. These effected mechanics will diffuse forces unevenly, thus effecting the shape and form(s) of the foot.




Am I missing the forest for the trees here? Do you think this is something I should work on trying to focus on this more agressively in the long term, or do you feel that this style of shoeing is sufficient to address this?

The protocol seems to be working just fine. Tune the method at each shoeing. Look for the little things that may arise that need attention. Ron's Bannana shoe protocol would be a good call if the horse becomes lame again. An option of rocking the shoe and foot at the distal point of the coffin bone could be an option. Just fine tune your protocol at each shoeing.

[RWBarrette]

Patty, Thanks for the suggestions. The original purpose of my posting this message was to find out how far off I was from the NB protocol. I guess you are correct, in that I should probably have represented it different in the title. I previously had this horse in NBS shoes, but he always slides over them, so I wanted the clips. Now I guess this shoeing has become something of a hybrid. Perhaps if I applied them more in line with proper NBS style, they wouldn't shift so bad, but I've always had to deal with it on this particular horse. When I originally posted, I had hoped that you would weigh in, and I appreciate the comments. One more comment regarding his heels...This horse has an incredibly large frog, and I use it for guidance as to where to take his heels to. In most horses I try not to touch the frog, but this horse grows his frog thick, and full, and I have to trim it to the plane of the hoof wall for contact w/ the pad. If I lower his heels too much more, I'll be cutting down pretty deep into it, and that has sort of tempered my aggressiveness with lowering his angle

Thanks again Derin for the suggestions on the Banana technique, I would like to be able to apply it correctly, and understand it better. Do you or Ron, or anyone else know a good source for more reading on the technique. All of the papers I've read and found written by Dr. Redden are based on radiograph techniques, but I can't find anything on the banana technique.

Jaye, I agree with you , and I don't think I am inclined to mess with him too drastically at this point other than some of the suggested corrections. He is working very well right now, and I've had no real problems. I didn't want to abandon what is currently working, unless I'd received negative feedback on problematic effects in the long term. I try not to spare any expenses on him, and have the fortune of always being able to experience any changes (good or ill) first hand.

-Roger

[calshoer]

I previously had this horse in NBS shoes, but he always slides over them, so I wanted the clips. Something to look for if a horse is sliding over his shoes is to be sure he is landing heel first at a walk.
If he is landing consistantly toe first, besides the trauma to the coffin joint and navicular area, he may also knock the shoes back (sliding over the front) .
If he is landing consistantly slightly heel first, he shouldn't slide over the shoes unless he is a pawer or fly stomper. Patty